np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[jas61292]

If you guys are really thinking about banning Tyranitar what you could do instead that would be a better choice is to just ban auto weather(expect maybe Abomasnow I guess?). The metagame is sounding way better that way than just banning TTar and making things easier for Politoed and Ninetales, things like Excadrill/Tornadus/Saur are not nearly as threatening and we won't have to deal with Garchomp misses anymore. We don't need to go through those stupid "I need to keep my weather mon alive" games to win anymore either. Sounds better already.

Banning Auto-Weather is not good for the metagmae at all. Sure, it might fix alot of problems, but it would do so in a very unnecessary way. Just let the metagame stabilize for a while around the weather and see who is broken IN the weather. Weather is not broken its self. Though I have said this many times already, and I don't feel like repeating it any more.

 

[Matthew]

CB Tar isn't even the most common Ttar set right now, on the ladder all i've been seeing is that weird Stealth Rock lead of Crunch, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, SR. Which is all the more reason that Ninetales can just burn, take ~20% from the crunch, and then switch to something that will handle Tyranitar better. In fact just by the last week honestly I've seen less Tyranitar lasting longer than Ninetales and Politoed.(awkwardly phrased!!)

However it should be noted that even while burned Stone Edge from CB Tar will OHKO Ninetales. But, then again, I've been seeing less and less CB Tar and more SR Tar.

 

[Benlisted]

CB Tar isn't even the most common Ttar set right now, on the ladder all i've been seeing is that weird Stealth Rock lead of Crunch, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, SR. Which is all the more reason that Ninetales can just burn, take ~20% from the crunch, and then switch to something that will handle Tyranitar better. In fact just by the last week honestly I've seen less Tyranitar lasting longer than Ninetales and Politoed.(awkwardly phrased!!)

However it should be noted that even while burned Stone Edge from CB Tar will OHKO Ninetales. But, then again, I've been seeing less and less CB Tar and more SR Tar.

True, but practically every time Tales comes in when TTar is still alive it should be spamming Sub if it has it or WoW as insurance for the possible TTar coming in, both in case of CB or Scarf Tar, who will wreck you if it gets in without being burned (the residual damage actually helps with a lot of things, like Latios who also likes to come in a lot). That or switching straight out. Sun simply cannot afford to lose Ninetales, as it relies on its weather a lot more than SS does. Staying in in case WoW doesn't miss and it doesn't have SE is too much of a risk to be taking, imo.

I'd agree that TTar tends to last less long than the others - Tales is typically guarded preciously, and Politoed can't be pursuited out like Tales can. Also, TTar tends to be played a tad more recklessly imo, but whether this is because the team doesn't need him quite as much or because the opponent is ignorant of how much HP their TTar needs to retain to prevent you from beating it (with other weather) I'm not sure.

 

[shrang]

You completely wall Tyranitars STAB combo just for being a Fighting type, or a Steel type. Both of which are fairly common.

You also completely wall Ho-Oh's STABs with a Rock type o_0. Granted, most Rock-types are completely crippled by Sacred Fire, but eh.

It doesn't become broken for just being "easy" to use, y'know. It makes Sand easy to get. Yay. And then... what?

Does it get broken for being "too easy" to use? When I say that keeping Sand up is too easy with Tyranitar, it implies that because of Tyranitar, Sand has a huge advantage over the other weather effects, which is game-breaking these days. Basically, the "and then" becomes "and then the opponent, who is not running sand, is at a disadvantage".

About Ho-Oh having much better coverage and being harder to switch into, again, you're missing the point. If I've just killed you Latias or something, I don't give a shit if Gliscor just switched in. The only thing I have compared Tyranitar to Ho-Oh with is stats, not "ability to do the same job".

While I am advocating a Tyranitar ban, I don't really mind the thing, so don't call my playing abilities to question. All I want to do is put this out there, so more people can start thinking about it. Latias took what, 5 rounds to ban in 4th gen? I can wait =P.

 

[XienZo]

Does it get broken for being "too easy" to use? When I say that keeping Sand up is too easy with Tyranitar, it implies that because of Tyranitar, Sand has a huge advantage over the other weather effects, which is game-breaking these days. Basically, the "and then" becomes "and then the opponent, who is not running sand, is at a disadvantage".

So Sand becomes the dominant weather. And again, then what? You're just saying that Tyranitar gives you an advantage. Great. Hopefully, all the pokemon on your team try to give your side the advantage rather than the disadvantage.

Now, if you claim it's a game-breaking advantage, then you need to elaborate on that, because last time I checked, winning a game was a bit harder than setting up sand.

 

[PK Gaming]

Does it get broken for being "too easy" to use? When I say that keeping Sand up is too easy with Tyranitar, it implies that because of Tyranitar, Sand has a huge advantage over the other weather effects, which is game-breaking these days. Basically, the "and then" becomes "and then the opponent, who is not running sand, is at a disadvantage".

Not true in the slightest. Even with Tyranitar, sand is clearly the second weakest weather. If you noticed, a fair amount of the stronger players run rain & sun and have no problem beating Tyranitar. Its not that good. Thats really all there is to it.

 

[iDunno]

If you aren't running Scarftar with Hippowdon support, you're doing it wrong.

 

[breh]

rain>sun=sand>hail

Rain is rain, sand is good just for dory and weather cancel, sun is good but has crap abusers, and lolhail

@iDunno: wut

just run bandtar dammit

 

[TheFourthChaser]

Banning Auto-Weather is not good for the metagmae at all. Sure, it might fix alot of problems, but it would do so in a very unnecessary way. Just let the metagame stabilize for a while around the weather and see who is broken IN the weather. Weather is not broken its self. Though I have said this many times already, and I don't feel like repeating it any more.

Banning auto weather is way faster, makes the meta way better than the crap we have now, and stops our "keep weather mon alive". You're banning more keeping weather than you are without it with that kind of thinking since theres a good amount broken with weather.

 

[Cryo Dragon]

I've been playing 5th gen OU for quite some time now and I can say that you guys are being ridiculous with banning only one auto-weather inducer.

Honestly, the only way to solve this issue is remove them for a shorter suspect testing period to see how the meta game changes, if at all (and it will, as it wont be a "who can kill the other weather inducer first" game) and then base your decisions off of that before perma-banning any single weather inducer, such as Tyranitar.

 

[Ulevo]

rain>sun=sand>hail

Rain is rain, sand is good just for dory and weather cancel, sun is good but has crap abusers, and lolhail

@iDunno: wut

just run bandtar dammit

Yeah, because Volcarona, Venusaur and Sawsbuck are terrible in sunlight.

Mewtwo's also OU.

 

[yee]

My two cents on Tyranitar, its horrible. Ill explain why of course. EVERY team I make is forced to carry an SS-immune physical attacker that can OHKO without being walled by Ferrothorn. Pokemon used alongside Tyranitar such as Rotom-W appreciate the fact that Latias can't even switch in on them because unless you're using Specs+HP Fighting Tyranitar will take no more than 40% from your attack and pursuit you. Although it does annoy me, im not voting it to Uber, it just forces you to be prepared or face horrible consequences.

I would go on about its argument through the support clause but I see shrang has elaborated on it better than I would. It's so frustrating to play with other weathers and face it because the SS+SR wears down your team very quick and forcing an advantage against it in a lead match-up is extremely hard to do, especially when the only viable trappers- Wobbuffet and Dugtrio require perfect prediction to get rid of Tar.

 

[jas61292]

Banning auto weather is way faster, makes the meta way better than the crap we have now, and stops our "keep weather mon alive". You're banning more keeping weather than you are without it with that kind of thinking since theres a good amount broken with weather.

When we start worrying about speed, we stop worrying about what matters. It is not important to get a fast fix, it is important to get the best fix. Banning Auto Weather is nowhere near a good fix. Yes it may fix a lot of problems quickly, but not all of them, and in the long run, it is not even close to a great solution. Not to mention the fact that it would throw all of OU into utter chaos and force us to pretty much start 5th gen all over.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

More problems are fixed banning auto weather and there aren't many(if any at all) problems fixed keeping it that the ban wouldn't fix. We'd have a better metagame with more Pokemon in a faster amount of time and problems actually caused by getting rid of weather abilities are small, only one I can really think of that would be mentioned in a thread like this is "OMG NO TYRANITAR". Sure there might be problems but there is no perfect metagame and we can try fixing the problem from there, it cannot be worse than keeping all this Rain, Sand, and Sun.

 

[iSkittles]

When we start worrying about speed, we stop worrying about what matters. It is not important to get a fast fix, it is important to get the best fix. Banning Auto Weather is nowhere near a good fix. Yes it may fix a lot of problems quickly, but not all of them, and in the long run, it is not even close to a great solution. Not to mention the fact that it would throw all of OU into utter chaos and force us to pretty much start 5th gen all over.

Lol wtf are you talking about? It would be the same meta but without any auto weather inducers or centralization around them. Tbh weather is the reason I don't even bother to play OU, I only play lower tiers. (nb4theresnouu) The faster weather gets banned the better. Obv there's going to be a fuckton of butthurt weather fanboys crying about it, but even that's better than the same 5 teams over and over.

 

[iDunno]

When we start worrying about speed, we stop worrying about what matters. It is not important to get a fast fix, it is important to get the best fix. Banning Auto Weather is nowhere near a good fix. Yes it may fix a lot of problems quickly, but not all of them, and in the long run, it is not even close to a great solution. Not to mention the fact that it would throw all of OU into utter chaos and force us to pretty much start 5th gen all over.

Lol wtf are you talking about? It would be the same meta but without any auto weather inducers or centralization around them.

The reason why it would throw OU into chaos is ... [see bolded portion]

 

[iSkittles]

The reason why it would throw OU into chaos is ... [see bolded portion]

So having to use different teams or think of other shit to use for once is "chaos"? k gotcha.

 

[Crim09]

So having to use different teams or think of other shit to use for once is "chaos"? k gotcha.

Actually if what everyone says about over 80% of teams running weather, then removing it could create chaos. Chaos is defined as complete disorder and confusion. Taking away weather removes prominent threats in the metagame so a new outlook would have to be drawn. Your new teams no long have to counter x y and z because of the nonexistence of those threats, but now need to counter a, b and c. Except a, b and c are not stable because everyone is trying out new combinations. Some pokemon are consistently stable though meta to meta, so most teams would be running the tried and true pokemon as well as others (so there is a polarization of using highly used pokemon versus a "mixed mess"). The good players would catch on right away and form teams to meet the demands of the new meta, just like they did at the advent of the weather heavy 5th gen meta. Everyone else, as the original poster said, would be playing like the beginning of 5th gen or any gen for that matter. A whole new mess of unpredictability would be introduced and most likely all those analysis that were written up would have to be edited to accommodate the lack of or emergence of threats.

As for my opinion, weather adds an interesting dynamic to playing. That aside if it did get banned I could live without it. Though I would be sad to see hippo go, as it has been a reliable pokemon in many of my teams since it's inception in gen 4.

 

[iSkittles]

Omg I have to use something other than my cookie cutter team! Push the panic button no one is telling me what to look out for and I have to do it myself! I don't see how that's a bad thing in the slightest. Seeing new shit isn't something to be discouraged, if anything it should be encouraged to get people thinking outside the box to keep everything from becoming stagnant.

 

[iDunno]

If weather is removed, pretty much the entire tiering process will have to be redone seeing as it would be a completely new metagame. You think Salamence's removal had a big effect on Gen 4? Imagine what removing weather would do.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

If weather is removed, pretty much the entire tiering process will have to be redone seeing as it would be a completely new metagame. You think Salamence's removal had a big effect on Gen 4? Imagine what removing weather would do.

Uuuuhhhhhhh.... the Mence ban didn't cause anything close to chaos it was just, "k Mence is gone lets try this out now" and a lot of people tried running Dragonite over Mence's old spot, which usually didn't work out. If weather is removed people will just swarm to their favorite sweepers at the beginning and things would go from there, new things rise up to take on these sweepers that may now be more effective because auto weather is gone. There won't be chaos, people will try using a lot of things like Latios and Thundurus at first and we will move on from there. People are going to adapt like they always have done.

 

[iSkittles]

Uuuuhhhhhhh.... the Mence ban didn't cause anything close to chaos it was just, "k Mence is gone lets try this out now" and a lot of people tried running Dragonite over Mence's old spot, which usually didn't work out. If weather is removed people will just swarm to their favorite sweepers at the beginning and things would go from there, new things rise up to take on these sweepers that may now be more effective because auto weather is gone. There won't be chaos, people will try using a lot of things like Latios and Thundurus at first and we will move on from there. People are going to adapt like they always have done.

^ This, exactly this.
Of course, the weather fanboys will baww and whine about their precious playstyle being gone before they adapt. Buut yeaaah giving weather the axe will actually lead to a more diverse meta since people won't have to take up a team slot/move slot to counter/induce weather.

Kind of like how other shit started to flourish in Gen four when Salamence went uber. But this isn't gen four, so I'd imagine even more new toys would become available to teams with the weather choke-hold gone. IMO weather is holding back the meta big time, because only so much can work while it's around, AND it's boosting otherwise normal Pokemon to insane levels. It's the obvious elephant in the room that everyone is too scared to get rid of.

 

[Crim09]

Of course people are going to adapt, but taking out a large part of the current metagame will have a great impact. It might be for the best, I don't know. It's like the job market, what would happen if you took a chunk of it away. If tomorrow there were no jobs in accounting, the job just did not exist anymore, don't you think there would be frustration? People would have to be retrained and would have wasted their time learning accounting. Granted this is taking a macro scale analogy but it works. The nice thing about Drizzle + SS ban was that is was soon enough to the inception of 5th gen that the impact was lessened. If weather though is "broken" and hinders the balance and development of the metagame in a majorities opinion then I say ban it. Just remember there will be consequences. I side either way, my worry is in wasting analysts time, cause once it is banned it should stay that way indefinitely. Weather is such a big thing that there really is no room to flip flop.

P.S, saying butthurt weather fanboys are going to crying is probably insulting to those who do like weather. People are allowed to support what they want and oppose what they want, even if you don't agree. I thought this discussion was supposed to be civil *shrugs*

 

[iDunno]

Uuuuhhhhhhh.... the Mence ban didn't cause anything close to chaos it was just, "k Mence is gone lets try this out now" and a lot of people tried running Dragonite over Mence's old spot, which usually didn't work out. If weather is removed people will just swarm to their favorite sweepers at the beginning and things would go from there, new things rise up to take on these sweepers that may now be more effective because auto weather is gone. There won't be chaos, people will try using a lot of things like Latios and Thundurus at first and we will move on from there. People are going to adapt like they always have done.

Well, I didn't really mean "chaos" so to speak; that may have been a bit too extreme an adjective. The Mence ban did, however, dramatically change the ways teams were built to the point where it was as if it was a different game being played. I guess I was probably wrong to assume that things may be brought down for retesting, because they would probably be broken otherwise (except Blaziken and Manaphy). I'm not really stating this as a deterrent to banning auto-weather; I'm just pointing out the obvious.

 

[Yoshiken]

Man, this is getting ridiculous. At least give the weather metagame a chance to stabilise so we can really see if it is all that broken. In every meta, there are gonna be certain things that work well (e.g. trappers, priority, entry hazards) and that doesn't change with a weather-based metagame. Add in the fact that a single Pokemon loss can swing the entire outcome of a match and that weather is stupidly easy to change, and you're left with a metagame where weather is - shock horror - not broken.
Put simply, if you think it's broken, make a team to counter it. If you're still struggling to win, then we have an issue.

Idly, I'd suggest that people start running teams designed to counter the biggest threats and nothing else. If you can survive against Reuniclus/TTar/Lati@s/weather with whatever team, then that team becomes a new threat in the metagame. If you can't, then you need to look at which of those is the biggest threat and turn towards that. If you can't cope with everything in a single team, then yes, we should look towards banning the one that has the least answers.