np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

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Azure Demon

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We're talking about Vicitini in Trick Room, you retard. Trick Room turns those Speed drops into more things Vicitini can outspeed under Trick Room and ram through.

Ummmmm

1. I don't know who you are calling a Retard you can calm that shit down.

2. In case you didn't know he also loses 2 other fuckin stats also. Which isn't good when you pack 4 fuckin weaknesses.

Your argument was for TR, and V-create makes Victini better after every use. So no, it doesn't make it shit.
Since when was making yourself lose bulk good? when stuff like priority and sashes exist.
 
Ummmmm

1. I don't know who you are calling a Retard you can calm that shit down.

2. In case you didn't know he also loses 2 other fuckin stats also. Which isn't good when you pack 4 fuckin weaknesses.

When your outspeeding tons of things under Trick Room, and only losing more and more Speed to help that, the Defense and Special Defence drops become quite easy to forget about due to the only priority that hits Vicitini super-effectively and is common is Sucker Punch. Also, I think you need to calm down there son, you look like even more of a fool then you already are, which is an accomplishment.
 
Your second point doesn't matter since it'll be "faster" than everything else, anyway. Also, telling other people to calm down when you're the one swearing the most is kind of laughable.

EDIT: Damn it BL, you're too fast for me :(

Victini will survive any priority save Sucker Punch due to its overall bulk and ability to invest in HP EVs since it doesn't have to go mixed, unlike Camerupt. Sashes outside of leads (terrible, btw) will stop Camerupt just as easily.
 

Azure Demon

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When your outspeeding tons of things under Trick Room, and only losing more and more Speed to help that, the Defense and Special Defence drops become quite easy to forget about due to the only priority that hits Vicitini super-effectively and is common is Sucker Punch.
Aqua jet.... shadow sneak?

They failed to exist even when we have a pokemon with a 120 base power aqua jet?

Maybe we have been playing different groups of people.
Fake Out won't even come close to killing after a def drop, and Victini will survive anything save Sucker Punch due to its overall bulk and ability to invest in HP EVs since it doesn't have to go mixed, unlike Camerup
this is the ev spread for mixed camurupt last gen

40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

Bump that 216 to the front and there you go hp EVs:)
 
Aqua Jet does more to Camerupt even after a defense drop, and Shadow Sneak is so rare as to be practically nonexistent. I think you should stop arguing this now, since you obviously don't have any idea what you're talking about.

EDIT: I took out the calcs since you're saying that's not what you're arguing, so fair enough. I know enough about Camerupt to say that it isn't strictly better than Victini, which is all that I'm saying. You don't seem to be backing down on Camerupt's obvious superiority, though.

Then we're in agreement (about the niches part, anyway). No further reason for argument.
 

Azure Demon

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Aqua Jet does more to Camerupt even after a defense drop, and Shadow Sneak is so rare as to be practically nonexistent. I think you should stop arguing this now, since you obviously don't have any idea what you're talking about.
Wanderer I've seen some teams rock the shadow sneak, but not to many. I'm just saying as a whole victini has parts in it's game that Camurupt can play better same can be said vice versa.
We weren't talking about damage of Aqua jet vs both pokemon. I was just disproving that the only priority that he has to be afraid of is sucker punch.
Also you are trying to say I don't know what I'm talking about when you don't even know anything about camurupt in general.

Camurupt has a niche in Trick room teams that I think it fills well no different than victini.
 
Either I'm really good, the entire ladder is really bad, or the combination of Hail and Kyurem is broken. Or maybe Kyurem is broken on its own, I wouldn't really know since my team happens to have several good checks against it. Regardless, I don't think I should be able to get to #1 with a Hail team (at one point Panamaxis and I were #1 and #2 respectively, and we both used Hail), so I'd like to hear more opinions on that. Drought and Sand are both also very annoying to play against. What I'm trying to say here is that weather is extremely dominant on the ladder, and either the players need to change or something needs to be banned.
yeah id like to emphasize this post -- ive been running a standard hail team with fillers like scarfraptor (who is dominant in its own right) and ive gotten to #1 on the leaderboard in like 2 days. i think hail is by far a more potent weather condition than sun although like delta said, im not sure whether thats because of kyurem or hail itself. most people ignored this post and it should be talked about more!!!!

ps eo sucks
 
...And this is why we don't treat base power and attacking stats separately, kids!

Also, since when were Def+SpD drops so bad? Next to no one minds them on Close Combat...
 

Azure Demon

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...And this is why we don't treat base power and attacking stats separately, kids!

Also, since when were Def+SpD drops so bad? Next to no one minds them on Close Combat...

Close combat also tend to be a late game sweep move and not something you just throw out to get the pokemon using CC in Favorable position for a sweep either.

If you ever notice after a pokemon uses close combat it will normally switch unless it can KO or can guarantee a partner can KO something else.

Great example is infernape: Infernape has close combat yes but what do you normally see him do after a close combat if it can't kill the next pokemon that comes in? U-turn
 
Two things: CC is not really a bad move to just throw out randomly (within reason, of course), and it does help set up for a sweep since it weakens the Fighting-resists on the opposing team. Also, your example can be summarized as: CC kills something, something that has an advantage over Nape switches in, Nape switches out. Don't you think switching out is the normal thing to do if they can't beat the Pokemon that's currently out? Especially for something as frail as Infernape, who will probably be OHKOed even without a defense drop.
 

Azure Demon

Guest
it does help set up for a sweep since it weakens the Fighting-resists on the opposing team.
Yeah throw CC out on Duskinor switch in it weakness it a lot, same with cress, and gyarados. (I don't get what you are going for here but it's just wrong).

Don't you think switching out is the normal thing to do if they can't beat the Pokemon that's currently out? Especially for something as frail as Infernape, who will probably be OHKOed even without a defense drop.
Wanderer read my post again and tell me why you are saying the same stuff I just said.

I never said it beats ape, I said ape can't KO the pokemon in question.

CC puts ape in a I must kill this or run position.
 
On a make-or-break sweeper, not being able to kill something is usually the same as losing to it (unless you switch out, of course). I did say within reason; if they've switched a Ghost in on you before (or you predict it using Team Preview) then you're not going to keep throwing them out.

The kind of CC you throw out randomly is say with a CB set, or when you bring out something like SD Luke and you just want to weaken a Garchomp that would otherwise check you.

EDIT: I'll put this here to avoid further clutter. CC doesn't put Nape in a kill or run position; it's in that situation just by virtue of being Nape. To clarify my Luke vs. Chomp example, the Luke player throws out a CC because setting up won't yield a sweep with Garchomp still alive and it's better to weaken it. Chomp isn't "staying in to eat the CC", it's switching in so it can force Lucario out.

If you still want to argue, let's take this to PMs.
 

Azure Demon

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On a make-or-break sweeper, not being able to kill something is usually the same as losing to it (unless you switch out, of course). I did say within reason; if they've switched a Ghost in on you before (or you predict it using Team Preview) then you're not going to keep throwing them out.

The kind of CC you throw out randomly is say with a CB set, or when you bring out something like SD Luke and you just want to weaken a Garchomp that would otherwise check you.
Posted by Azure Demon
If you ever notice after a pokemon uses close combat it will normally switch unless it can KO or if it can guarantee a partner can KO something else.
You are still saying what I have said man.lol


I'm going to assume you are assuming all checks to CC are gone and that's why a garchomp would be staying in to eat the CC.
 

shrang

General Kenobi
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@People arguing about how V-Create forces you to switch: Remember Victini still has access to Flare Blitz, so earlier in the game, you can use V-Create to destroy walls, while in the late game, you can easily use Flare Blitz in the sun off 448 Attack and 328 Speed to clean up.
 
on the topic of hail, i'd consider it to be UU's version of OU sand teams. has one or two really good "abusers" (i guess 100% acc blizzard is enough for kyurem?) as well as a few other solid choices (mamoswine, walrein?) though can't load up the entire team with these due to abusable weaknesses. as such i mostly see hail teams with aboma + kyurem and maybe an extra ice mon and then 3 others who support the team but don't directly benefit from the hail. i'd also say it actually has an advantage over sun teams as it's far easier to kill vulpix than aboma and 90% of sun teams are just vulpix + 3/4 sweepers + spinner which gets trashed if vulpix dies and hail gets put up.

i wouldn't say it's broken at all, it's probably just kyurem because honestly what else does hail make overpowered?
 

breh

強いだね
hail is probably fine without kyurem, but it's sure as hell broken without it.

For god's sake, I was able to get into the 100s after an idiotic losing streak just by using a rather lackluster hail team. Kyurem just makes the team fit together - it provides bulk and an idiotically powerful attack all in one.

On the other hand, hail is also really good because you can use Flash Fire for sun teams but nothing gets power boosts from ice.

I.E. Arcanine sweeps teams with a sun boost and a FF boost.
 
Good pokes on hail... Frosy (that bitch has t-wave and snow cloak, + an extra haxy confusion), with sub alone she can put full spikes easily, and Kyurem (which is broken in UU by it's own right), and the old school hail stallers (now with regice)

Still, what's worng with having -3 defenses when you outspeed everything, Sucker Punchers are rare outside of STAB (the only regular one was Sucker punch toxicroak, which is OU) and easily spotabble thanks to team preview (and give you a free swich in), and Victini is bulky enough to survive +2 sucker Punch from toxicroak, so i don't think he will mind an unboosted one even at -1, that will be way more potent than a shadow snake or an aqua jet (even worst in sun), + you can u-turn on the last turn of TR, and you're likely with an ok hp

And in the subject of Sun, i guess we need the time to try a victini-less metagame, but i really thing that victini deserves a fair drought-less test since he really is not as strong without the sun

PS: that FF+Sun boost is just as powerful as victinis v-create in the sun
 

FlareBlitz

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I've been messing around with a sun team on the ladder, and here are some of my thoughts:

- Sun is absolutely terrible against every other weather team
- Sun has very favorable matchups against all other teams, especially standard offense, which simply cannot withstand infinite turns of boosted-speed grass sweepers
- Speaking of which, grass-oriented offense is definitely the way to go over fire-oriented offense if you're running a sun team. I'm not saying don't have any fire type offense, but no more than one poke (entei or arcanine works well). Swasbuck is basically the kingdra of the sun, use it accordingly
- If you're using a sun team, use wobbuffet! I have no idea why I have not seen a single wobbuffet on sun teams, because it has easily been the single most valuable supporter I have used. The best position to be in with a sun team is with a +2/+2 grass type, and wobbuffet is invaluable in facilitating this.Switch into something like Slowbro, Encore its Slack Off, go to Tangrowth/Swasbuck, use Swords Dance, and proceed to fuck shit up for the next few turns. It's also great against choiced revenge killers.

As I mention above, other weather teams really kill sun because Vulpix fucking sucks, and it's very easy for the opponent to get rid of it. I've beaten other weather teams, but only when my play is simply more intelligent than my opponent. Against an equally matched opponent running hail or sand, I have little chance of winning. However, I'm mildly disturbed by how efficient and simplistic sun is against all other teams. I'm not sure if this is because people are inadequately prepared or if it's just that there are too many threats right now for every team to cover, but I will test more and offer updated impressions later.
 

breh

強いだね
And in the subject of Sun, i guess we need the time to try a victini-less metagame, but i really thing that victini deserves a fair drought-less test since he really is not as strong without the sun

PS: that FF+Sun boost is just as powerful as victinis v-create in the sun
You're thinking about it the wrong way.

Victini is inherently broken; sun is probably not without it.

In fact, fire types use sun against itself (ignoring sawsbuck); dragon types (rare as they are) wall it.

Plus, as Flareblitz said, Vulpix is terrible. It's frail as all hell, unfortunately.
 
... why don't you use wobbuffet to kill aboma? i know it needs a little prediction, but if is chiced (many are) then is dead (and easily revenged), and if is a leech seed (or just want to be smart and not attack) you encore him and bring your fire/grass type (you can even set up a sub or boost yourself) then proced to sweep, if you need vulpix to survive, max speed/236hp with shed shell and rest has more than enough chances to swich in-out

PS: i know victini is gonna go, but i don't think he is broken without the sun, i may be wrong and he might be broken in the sand, but i think none of us now for sure if he can destroy the entire metagame all by himself
 

jrrrrrrr

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yeah id like to emphasize this post -- ive been running a standard hail team with fillers like scarfraptor (who is dominant in its own right) and ive gotten to #1 on the leaderboard in like 2 days. i think hail is by far a more potent weather condition than sun although like delta said, im not sure whether thats because of kyurem or hail itself. most people ignored this post and it should be talked about more!!!!

ps eo sucks
Wow this last page of the thread has been terrible, this was the first useful post here in a while.

What do you think is "broken" about hail? Can you elaborate more please? Kyurem is good but any Steel-type has no issues with it. Just because good people use it doesnt mean that something needs to be banned. Panamaxis, you and delta would be near the top of the leaderboard no matter what teams you use.

I'm just asking because I'm worried that people will jump to conclusions in this tier that developed 10 days ago and ban things prematurely, people are throwing the word broken around in this thread quite a bit considering I doubt anyone in this thread has made more than a small handful of teams

Also, since when were Def+SpD drops so bad? Next to no one minds them on Close Combat...
The reason why people are complaining about the Def/SpDef drops on Victini is because it also comes with the Speed drop. If you just had the Def drops then Victini would still outspeed most of the tier before they could hurt it, and if it just had the Speed drops then it would still have the defenses to survive pretty much anything. But it gets both drops, so it's a huge issue.

The Def/SpDef drops on Victini make it so that it can't sweep with V-Create, it turns the Stealth Rock weak pokemon into a hit and run attacker, which weakens it a LOT.

@People arguing about how V-Create forces you to switch: Remember Victini still has access to Flare Blitz, so earlier in the game, you can use V-Create to destroy walls, while in the late game, you can easily use Flare Blitz in the sun off 448 Attack and 328 Speed to clean up.
So after switching into Rocks a couple times, you're going to start sacrificing HP? Have you used that set? It sounds like pure theorymon to me. Two Physical Fire moves seems like such a waste when Victini has so many checks. It really needs that room for those extra moves for type coverage IMO.
 
The reason why people are complaining about the Def/SpDef drops on Victini is because it also comes with the Speed drop.
The quote you're replying to was about Victini in Trick Room. An honestly silly discussion it turned out to be...
 

breh

強いだね
What do you think is "broken" about hail? Can you elaborate more please? Kyurem is good but any Steel-type has no issues with it. Just because good people use it doesnt mean that something needs to be banned. Panamaxis, you and delta would be near the top of the leaderboard no matter what teams you use.

I'm just asking because I'm worried that people will jump to conclusions in this tier that developed 10 days ago and ban things prematurely, people are throwing the word broken around in this thread quite a bit considering I doubt anyone in this thread has made more than a small handful of teams
I'm going to have to deny this assertion. Hail is certainly OP; how or why, I don't know, but I suspect Kyurem very heavily.

As I have stated, I have made it to 100 ranking very quickly using it. Whether this is due to shitty opponents, true op, or my skill (I doubt this one heavily), there's no denying that it's superior to the average team.
 
.

Kyurem is good but any Steel-type has no issues with it. Just because good people use it doesnt mean that something needs to be banned. Panamaxis, you and delta would be near the top of the leaderboard no matter what teams you use.



So after switching into Rocks a couple times, you're going to start sacrificing HP? Have you used that set? It sounds like pure theorymon to me. Two Physical Fire moves seems like such a waste when Victini has so many checks. It really needs that room for those extra moves for type coverage IMO.
Kyurem sweeping capabilites are so simple and steel type dont get in the way because they are like non-existent in UU..only registeel/cobalian are the premier steels and neither of them enjoy taking a full-power blizzard/draco meteor..registeel can switch in sometimes but without a reliable recovery its just a hump for kyurem to get over...also he has focus blast for them granted it should just stick to its bread and butter/ice and dragon...

personally I hate kyurem not for its power, but because of its unpredictablity...i think choiced then its mixed,I think its an attacker then its the stall set...and 1 bad prediction from it could throw your whole team off and change the momentum completely..

Regarding victini's EXTRA moves..victini has a large movepool but from what Ive seen every victini is either spamming V-generatestickupyoass or U-turn and if the situation calls for it, fusionbolt/wild charge...so that 4th slot is open for anything..Ive seen adding flareblitz in the last slot very fufilling for this one battler..It really saved him in the end because it allowed him to sweep still without having the drop in speed stat..yeah the loss of HP hurts, but one should always play a victini right and with spin support in the end to have enough HP to go with Flareblitz

EDIT: Ninja'd by alot of ppl lol
 
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