Quoted for excellence from the policy review forum. This is exactly what i've been saying the last 3 test..
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Quoted for excellence from the policy review forum. This is exactly what i've been saying the last 3 test..
Look, banning rain will bring us more problems. Ferrothorn in the rain is not THAT difficult to do, machamp, infernape, scizor, magnezone, and really anything that resists it's attacks and can get subs up (for example subroost zapdos) can counter it pretty easily. Rain helps ferrothorn by reducing the number of pokemon with fire moves and lessens the threat to the team. I'm not afraid of garchomp, because I have ferrothorn. Garchomp might use fire fang, but ferrothorn can take 2 hits of those, sometimes 3. If rain is banned ferrothorn can no longer do that, and you watch...people will start complaining about garchomp, latios, and mence sweeping them. The "new wall" for these pokes is ferrothorn, and without rain we just create more problems for ourselves.
I don't know exactly where it was mentioned, but someone had said before that if Ferrothorn in rain is the only thing keeping people from complaining then that shouldn't hold us back from banning it (Whether "it" be Ferrothorn or Drizzle). Honestly if one pokemon is the band-aid holding back the torrent of complaints about the dragons then why don't we ban the problematic dragons?
Because, at the moment, the dragons are no problem due to drizzle+ferrothorn. We shouldn't be changing anything right now, in my opinion. Everything seems to be going fine by my experience. But if something is changed/banned, everything will go into chaos.
EDIT:my mistake, I don't believe that ferrrothorn is one "band-aid"-with the help of drizzle, many steels can hold their own against the dragons, like skarm, forretress, and bronzong.
@SJCrew
ginganinja is hardly the only one to make it to good ranks with no weather. right now i'm at 1100~ and generally have been hovering between 800-1500. i really don't regard myself as a great player, and most of my hax are at times they really don't matter (oh gee, my gyrados with +3 ATT crit on your gliscor that was at 30%) i win somewhere between 50-80% of the time vs weather. i may not have logs to back this up, mainly because unless something odd happens (something that seems to be a glitch), i really don't care.
ginganinja is hardly the only one to make it to good ranks with no weather. right now i'm at 1100~ and generally have been hovering between 800-1500. i really don't regard myself as a great player, and most of my hax are at times they really don't matter (oh gee, my gyrados with +3 ATT crit on your gliscor that was at 30%) i win somewhere between 50-80% of the time vs weather. i may not have logs to back this up, mainly because unless something odd happens (something that seems to be a glitch), i really don't care.
SJ Crew, how have you backed up your statement that the top players use non-weather? Have you been at the top of the ladder? What if your logs were just against bad players? How can you prove non-weather isn't viable or in the same league? Hypothetically speaking, how do you know that non-weather beating weather isn't the normal result, and that those people just don't post here?
Look, I don't want to get into this argument, but your credibility and claims could have been questioned just as easily.
Targeted at no one, I'd like to say that some of the arguments for banning things have really been unfounded. I wonder why people jump to a ban so quickly. Here's an example (which I just made up) of what I mean:
"I think Breloom is broken. It forces you to have one of very few, specific ways to deal with it. You must have a status absorber (who can also KO it before it muscles its way through) or a very bulky Fighting-resist who isn't weak to Grass/Rock. And even your wall might get set up on if it's the SD set. And then the SubSeed set beats most of those other counters by stalling them out, especially if they lack recovery. Breloom just has it all, with insane attack, a set-up move combined with STAB priority, pseudo-reliable recovery, and ridiculous versatility. And if you don't have a counter for every single set, you will lose at least one Pokemon, possibly even the match. Breloom is too much for this metagame if you ask me, and it is definitely ban-worthy."
See what I mean? It sounds all well and good, but we all know that Breloom is nowhere near broken. Now apply that to other Pokemon. I just feel like the ban-button is too available and tempting. Maybe other people feel differently, but I hold to that opinion...
Look, I don't want to get into this argument, but your credibility and claims could have been questioned just as easily.
Targeted at no one, I'd like to say that some of the arguments for banning things have really been unfounded. I wonder why people jump to a ban so quickly. Here's an example (which I just made up) of what I mean:
"I think Breloom is broken. It forces you to have one of very few, specific ways to deal with it. You must have a status absorber (who can also KO it before it muscles its way through) or a very bulky Fighting-resist who isn't weak to Grass/Rock. And even your wall might get set up on if it's the SD set. And then the SubSeed set beats most of those other counters by stalling them out, especially if they lack recovery. Breloom just has it all, with insane attack, a set-up move combined with STAB priority, pseudo-reliable recovery, and ridiculous versatility. And if you don't have a counter for every single set, you will lose at least one Pokemon, possibly even the match. Breloom is too much for this metagame if you ask me, and it is definitely ban-worthy."
See what I mean? It sounds all well and good, but we all know that Breloom is nowhere near broken. Now apply that to other Pokemon. I just feel like the ban-button is too available and tempting. Maybe other people feel differently, but I hold to that opinion...
Chomp isn't even broken. It is completely manageable as long as you take it into account in your team building as you should do for any major threat.
I wont start on Sand Veil as I and others have already discussed that to death.
I wont start on Sand Veil as I and others have already discussed that to death.
I'm usually not for banning but I think that DrizzleToed might be broken:
1) Stats alone, Politoed may look pretty UU but Drizzle boosts it's special attack when using its STAB just by switching in. Given the fact that many Toeds run Choice Specs and have Water Type moves(usually Hydro Pump or Surf) it technically has a triple STAB, which undermines the fact that Max Sp Atk Poliotoed only hits 306. Factor in STAB, Rain Boost, and Specs, it gets kinda ridiculous for a support 'mon:
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/252 Reuniclus: 101.9% - 120.1%
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/216 Scizor: 103.2% - 121.5%
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/4 Blissey: 40.5% - 47.9%
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 4/0 Garchomp: 120.1% - 141.3%
Keep in mind that's coming from a pokemon with base 90 sp atk. That means that Politoed serves as an example that Rain and a Choice Item are suspect for being overpowered. However, let's not forget that there are other weather starters who get rid of Rain when they switch in. I got these calcs of the Politoed analysis, and Abomasnow wasn't there, bear with me.
Hydro Pump (sun) vs. 0/4 Ninetales: 87.8% - 103.1%
Hydro Pump (sandstorm) vs. 252/252+ Tyranitar: 59.9% - 71.3%
Ninetails can't switch in on Politoed or it gets wrecked unless there aren't any entry hazards. Tyranitar also has to be wary in switching in with entry hazard support, not saying it's a OHKO, but knocking a Tyranitar well under 50% is nothing to scoff at.
I hope that at this point I've established that DrizzleToed is powerful in its own right. However, the best part of Politoed is its support capabilities.
2) DrizzleToed boosts it's teammates offensive prowess to such a degree that it was nerfed. Kingdra, Kabutops, Gorebyss/Huntail, were found so broken with Politoed's nearly effortless support that a restraining order was enacted against them. If that wasn't a big enough warning sign...
3) Politoed is a very diverse supporting pokemon. However, those diverse boosts are done just by switching in. When Politoed switches in:
-About 30 pokemon gain recovery equivalent to or more than leftovers just by Drizzle being set up(Toxicroak being the more than with Dry Skin)
-The power of Fire type moves is halved
-The power of Water type moves is raised by 50% (which by itself equals the power of a Choice Item/STAB on all water type attacks)
-Moonlight/Synthesis/Morning Sun recovery is lowered to 25%.
-Thunder/Hurricane gain perfect accuracy. As if Tornadus, Thundurus, and Dragonite weren't good enough already DrizzleToed makes pokemon powerful across the board:
Dragonite/Tornadus/Thundurus were mentioned above but they get a perfectly accurate, STAB, 120 Base Power attacks coming off Base 100 and 125 Sp. Atk respectively. Gyarados's base 125 attack gets a double STAB Waterfall, Rotom gets STAB Hydro Pump boosted, Steel Types (if they weren't good enough already) essentially lose a weakness making Jirachi, Metagross, Ferrathorn, etc stronger on the special defensive side. Water type sweepers are inherently more powerful and let's not forget CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet (bye, bye Excadrill).
In conclusion, I think Politoed is too powerful for OU not only for its own strength, but for the ability it has to boost the overall effectiveness of its teammates and nerfs its opponents.
1) Stats alone, Politoed may look pretty UU but Drizzle boosts it's special attack when using its STAB just by switching in. Given the fact that many Toeds run Choice Specs and have Water Type moves(usually Hydro Pump or Surf) it technically has a triple STAB, which undermines the fact that Max Sp Atk Poliotoed only hits 306. Factor in STAB, Rain Boost, and Specs, it gets kinda ridiculous for a support 'mon:
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/252 Reuniclus: 101.9% - 120.1%
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/216 Scizor: 103.2% - 121.5%
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 252/4 Blissey: 40.5% - 47.9%
Hydro Pump (rain) vs. 4/0 Garchomp: 120.1% - 141.3%
Keep in mind that's coming from a pokemon with base 90 sp atk. That means that Politoed serves as an example that Rain and a Choice Item are suspect for being overpowered. However, let's not forget that there are other weather starters who get rid of Rain when they switch in. I got these calcs of the Politoed analysis, and Abomasnow wasn't there, bear with me.
Hydro Pump (sun) vs. 0/4 Ninetales: 87.8% - 103.1%
Hydro Pump (sandstorm) vs. 252/252+ Tyranitar: 59.9% - 71.3%
Ninetails can't switch in on Politoed or it gets wrecked unless there aren't any entry hazards. Tyranitar also has to be wary in switching in with entry hazard support, not saying it's a OHKO, but knocking a Tyranitar well under 50% is nothing to scoff at.
I hope that at this point I've established that DrizzleToed is powerful in its own right. However, the best part of Politoed is its support capabilities.
2) DrizzleToed boosts it's teammates offensive prowess to such a degree that it was nerfed. Kingdra, Kabutops, Gorebyss/Huntail, were found so broken with Politoed's nearly effortless support that a restraining order was enacted against them. If that wasn't a big enough warning sign...
3) Politoed is a very diverse supporting pokemon. However, those diverse boosts are done just by switching in. When Politoed switches in:
-About 30 pokemon gain recovery equivalent to or more than leftovers just by Drizzle being set up(Toxicroak being the more than with Dry Skin)
-The power of Fire type moves is halved
-The power of Water type moves is raised by 50% (which by itself equals the power of a Choice Item/STAB on all water type attacks)
-Moonlight/Synthesis/Morning Sun recovery is lowered to 25%.
-Thunder/Hurricane gain perfect accuracy. As if Tornadus, Thundurus, and Dragonite weren't good enough already DrizzleToed makes pokemon powerful across the board:
Dragonite/Tornadus/Thundurus were mentioned above but they get a perfectly accurate, STAB, 120 Base Power attacks coming off Base 100 and 125 Sp. Atk respectively. Gyarados's base 125 attack gets a double STAB Waterfall, Rotom gets STAB Hydro Pump boosted, Steel Types (if they weren't good enough already) essentially lose a weakness making Jirachi, Metagross, Ferrathorn, etc stronger on the special defensive side. Water type sweepers are inherently more powerful and let's not forget CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet (bye, bye Excadrill).
In conclusion, I think Politoed is too powerful for OU not only for its own strength, but for the ability it has to boost the overall effectiveness of its teammates and nerfs its opponents.
I disagree. Most of the Pokemon that use HP Fire in OU, happen to also carry water attacks with great frequency. This includes Pokemon Scizor "checks" (Latios, Latias, Starmie), and Pokemon that check Scizor (Rotom-W). Actually I can't think of any Hidden Power Fire user other than those 4, all of which frequently carry Surf/Hydro Pump. All that changes in rain is that they don't have to risk using their shitty hidden power-- they can just SPAM their more powerful STAB/coverage move. Maybe Virizeon, but really it still has STAB Fighting attacks, and most carry HP Ice anyway.
edit: Ok, I forgot Magnezone. In the case of facing an enemy Magnezone, yeah, rain is definitely great to have with Scizor...
I'm gonna call you out on the choice specs drizzle toed part of your post. First off, why are you posting calculations against pokemon who are either weak to or do not resist water anyway? Blissey isn't even 2HKO'd with protect.
In sunlight, choice specs heatran deals 52-61% to 252/4 Blissey with fire blast. But because people run the right pokemon to handle fire attacks (GRAND MASTER TYRANITAR), this doesn't bother them. If choice specs politoed were ever a problem on its own offensive merit, then people would run things to handle it as well. And as I said before, those calcs don't really tell me anything.
In sunlight, choice specs heatran deals 52-61% to 252/4 Blissey with fire blast. But because people run the right pokemon to handle fire attacks (GRAND MASTER TYRANITAR), this doesn't bother them. If choice specs politoed were ever a problem on its own offensive merit, then people would run things to handle it as well. And as I said before, those calcs don't really tell me anything.
Double post, but I thought it would be a good idea to argue this point in this topic.
Tyranitar is NOT a good pokemon regardless of sandstream. Sandstream is what makes Tyranitar so useful to begin with. Like it or not, he is a weather pokemon and would not be anywhere near as effective if sandstream was not his ability because the sandstorm boost to his defense is what makes him so useful to begin with.
Think about what Tyranitar is used for and try to imagine Unnerve Tyranitar being used in those situations. Now allow Unnerve tyranitar to use all of the moves Sandstream Tyranitar has access to. It just doesn't work as well.
Tyranitar is NOT a good pokemon regardless of sandstream. Sandstream is what makes Tyranitar so useful to begin with. Like it or not, he is a weather pokemon and would not be anywhere near as effective if sandstream was not his ability because the sandstorm boost to his defense is what makes him so useful to begin with.
Think about what Tyranitar is used for and try to imagine Unnerve Tyranitar being used in those situations. Now allow Unnerve tyranitar to use all of the moves Sandstream Tyranitar has access to. It just doesn't work as well.
Abomasnow still has to be wary of Focus blast that most Politoeds carry. Also, every set but the scarf set is outsepeed by politoed.
Tyranitar is still good, even without the sand. The special defense boost makes him better than already good, but ttar has an awesome attack stat, a useable special set, and an AMAZING move pool on both ends. Ttar obviously wouldn't be #1 without sand stream, but it would still be OU.
He'd be low OU, sure. Without sandstream, what you have is a pokemon who isn't as bulky anymore and can no longer revenge rain and sun boosters with choice scarf since he doesn't change the weather. I'm not going to say that he would be terrible, but without sandstream, he'd be getting the same treatment that chandelure has been receiving for quite some time now.
Keep in mind that without Sandstream 90% of the time he'd be run alongside Hippowdon which would certainly help keep his rating consistent.
Nkululeko, you presented your reasons for why you think DrizzleToed is broken and they are pretty sound. However, I would like to lodge a few... complaints, about your arguments.
And even if something can't switch in, a ton of 'mons can wreck Politoed if they get in for free. Given that it wouldn't be investing in bulk, it isn't that hard to kill. Starmie, Gengar, Zapdos, Thundurus, Rotom-W, etc. Even without an SE hit, almost any Band/Specs hit will KO it. And Politoed will normally go last, because let's face it, it's a slow mofo.
Yes DrizzleToed is powerful, but it's slow, can't take too many hits, and even has several safe switch-ins. I'd compare it to something like Specs Chandelure or Band Darmanitan (in Sun). Hits like a damn nuke, but not really broken.
That was an entirely different metagame, for one thing, which slightly weakens the comparison. But it doesn't matter. We did make a "restraining order" against them. They're longer a problem.
It would be like if I said "Germany could take over the world at any minute. Just look how close they came in WWII".
Saying how broken the Swift Swimmers were does nothing when talking about Drizzle nowadays.
-Of those 30 Pokemon who get healing, maybe 5 are viable in this metagame (and Dry Skin users lose health in Sun and become weak to Fire)
-It prevents your team from using any Fire moves
-If your opponent has a good user of Water moves, you'd better watch out cuz it benefits too
-You can't use anyone with Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis (which basically just means Volcarona, so this doesn't even hinder the opponent most of the time)
-Thunder/Hurricane also become very unreliable if you lose the weather, so you're still taking a risk by using them (and what do you mean, "across the board"? They get one new attack to spam...)
And Azumarill beats Excadrill anyway. :P
I agree with you that Rain is very, very good in this metagame. But for every benefit, there's something which is negative, and to think it's broken, you have to look at it as a whole. I'll admit, you made some very good points, but Rain has a lot of factors which help keep it in check.
Also, agreeing that Sandstream makes Tyranitar. Without it, he's no longer a special tank, pretty much invalidating the top two sets on his analysis. Not to mention that, as alphatron said, he can't use his Scarf set as well against weather threats. He can't kill Psychics anymore, because he dies to HP Fighting and the occasional Focus Blast. Tyranitar could be used alongside Hippowdon, but having to support him for those boosts limits his value. Tyranitar would prbably be a very low OU without Sandstream.
This does well to demonstrate SpecsToed's immense power. But what I hate is that whenever someone is trying to prove something broken, they only look at the things it beats, and never at the things which beat it. For instance, Ferrothorn can switch into SpecsToed Hydro Pump, then survive another one and use a super effective, STAB Power Whip. Celebi can do the same, but with Leaf Storm (or Giga Drain, because the healing lets it avoid being 3HKOed). Virizion can do the same thing as Celebi. Dragonite can switch into SpecsToed Hydro Pump, survive the hit, and set up (followed by a KO) or just KO it from the get-go. Toxicroak, obviously, but it's not as common as the others. I'll stop there.
And even if something can't switch in, a ton of 'mons can wreck Politoed if they get in for free. Given that it wouldn't be investing in bulk, it isn't that hard to kill. Starmie, Gengar, Zapdos, Thundurus, Rotom-W, etc. Even without an SE hit, almost any Band/Specs hit will KO it. And Politoed will normally go last, because let's face it, it's a slow mofo.
Yes DrizzleToed is powerful, but it's slow, can't take too many hits, and even has several safe switch-ins. I'd compare it to something like Specs Chandelure or Band Darmanitan (in Sun). Hits like a damn nuke, but not really broken.
No offense, but this doesn't really work. At all.Nkululeko said:
That was an entirely different metagame, for one thing, which slightly weakens the comparison. But it doesn't matter. We did make a "restraining order" against them. They're longer a problem.
It would be like if I said "Germany could take over the world at any minute. Just look how close they came in WWII".
Saying how broken the Swift Swimmers were does nothing when talking about Drizzle nowadays.
But again, you're only focusing on the strengths, not the weaknesses.Nkululeko said:
-Of those 30 Pokemon who get healing, maybe 5 are viable in this metagame (and Dry Skin users lose health in Sun and become weak to Fire)
-It prevents your team from using any Fire moves
-If your opponent has a good user of Water moves, you'd better watch out cuz it benefits too
-You can't use anyone with Moonlight/Morning Sun/Synthesis (which basically just means Volcarona, so this doesn't even hinder the opponent most of the time)
-Thunder/Hurricane also become very unreliable if you lose the weather, so you're still taking a risk by using them (and what do you mean, "across the board"? They get one new attack to spam...)
But all those benefits which you just listed turn into drawbacks when it isn't raining. In Sun, your Steels have increased weaknesses. Your water moves are much weaker. In any non-rain weather, your Thunders/Hurricanes become very unreliable.Nkululeko said:
And Azumarill beats Excadrill anyway. :P
I agree with you that Rain is very, very good in this metagame. But for every benefit, there's something which is negative, and to think it's broken, you have to look at it as a whole. I'll admit, you made some very good points, but Rain has a lot of factors which help keep it in check.
Also, agreeing that Sandstream makes Tyranitar. Without it, he's no longer a special tank, pretty much invalidating the top two sets on his analysis. Not to mention that, as alphatron said, he can't use his Scarf set as well against weather threats. He can't kill Psychics anymore, because he dies to HP Fighting and the occasional Focus Blast. Tyranitar could be used alongside Hippowdon, but having to support him for those boosts limits his value. Tyranitar would prbably be a very low OU without Sandstream.
The bigger question
It seems to me that we as a community still haven't answered the Big Question for the 5th gen metagame. That question being, "are we really ok with a weather centralized game?"
If the answer is yes, then Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Politoed and to a far lesser extent Abomasnow and Ninetales will continue to on the vast majority of teams and teams without them are gonna have a few tricks to stop them or work with them. In previous threads discussing this, one of the factors that was desirable in this metagame was a lack of over-centralization. If we allow these five pokemon to define the metagame, is it an over-centralization or is weather just the new play-field and the winners and losers will be the ones who can work the best in it, or should we blanket ban all perma-weather and let chaos ensue till the next round of voting?
Personally I think banning any of the weather starters without banning all of them would lead to an even more centralized metagame, which is generally undesirable.
It seems to me that we as a community still haven't answered the Big Question for the 5th gen metagame. That question being, "are we really ok with a weather centralized game?"
If the answer is yes, then Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Politoed and to a far lesser extent Abomasnow and Ninetales will continue to on the vast majority of teams and teams without them are gonna have a few tricks to stop them or work with them. In previous threads discussing this, one of the factors that was desirable in this metagame was a lack of over-centralization. If we allow these five pokemon to define the metagame, is it an over-centralization or is weather just the new play-field and the winners and losers will be the ones who can work the best in it, or should we blanket ban all perma-weather and let chaos ensue till the next round of voting?
Personally I think banning any of the weather starters without banning all of them would lead to an even more centralized metagame, which is generally undesirable.
We've been trying to answer that question all along. In this thread, it tends to be pretty 50-50, but in the voting pro-weather has won so far.
I agree that over-centralization is undesirable, but it's also unavoidable. People will use what's best, it's simply a matter of how much stuff is "the best". I honestly don't think that centralization can be the basis of any good ban.
By the way, weather is not on the vast majority of teams. It's on a minority of teams (albeit, a massive minority). But the thing is, this metagame really isn't chaos (although the one you described really would be). A lot of people, myself included, are leaning for no suspects this round.
However, we really can't ban based on what we think will happen. That would be the downfall of Smogon. We should only ban what's broken at the time.
P.S.- Welcome to Smogon! ;D
They tell you that Politoed isn't useless, offensively it can hold it's own, and can seriously injure the other weather starters if played right. Basically, it's better than Ninetails since it's not SR weak and has more abusers than Sand.
I like how we have 3 solid types of teams, sand, rain, and sun, and people are complaining about diversity. And that’s not including other "worse" teams, like normal stall, bulky offense, and hyper offensive, and variations upon those for each of the weathers, hail is also hanging around pretty well too. To top that literally about 100 pokemon viable in OU, with multiple sets, if something exists out there, you can in fact make a team to beat it, but with diversity, you can not counter everything, sorry, just try to make the best team you can countering the threats that exist. Yes if something becomes centralizing, deal with it, like we did with rain before. But these are not pokemon we are dealing with here, aside from the pokemon that set them up, these are actual styles of playing, you don't ban them, as much as you don't ban trick room, or stall teams, because you don't like there style of playin or just don't like dealing with them. The complexity ban has made a very stable and enjoyable metagame, without totally destroying rain, or the other weathers.
The main problem is not whether ginganinja should back up his argument; he certainly should if he wants to carry on with this. The problem I'm seeing is that he just posted experiences of using a "non-weather team" (a pretty ambiguous term in itself but let's assume that everyone agrees on its meaning), and yet this is somehow being treated equivalently to a declaration of war. The problem is that this isn't an isolated thing; it's a big issue where people are so quick to attack each others' credibility. Sometimes, it's as if people can't even grasp the idea of a fundamental disagreement, like they take it personally when others disagree with them. I'm not saying not to disagree or not to demand further reasoning/evidence, just that there's a good way and a bad way to communicate all this.
Can we please stop putting people on trial? It's like people are being coerced into agreeing with the norm, rather than actually learning anything. Calm down, it's just Pokémon...
Can we please stop putting people on trial? It's like people are being coerced into agreeing with the norm, rather than actually learning anything. Calm down, it's just Pokémon...
To be fair, this is all @SJCrew
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