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Data State of the Game - 6/10/2011

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Double Team - Meet Shock Wave, Earthquke, or any move that can effect the arena (I've always reffed double team as being dispersed in Sand, Hail and Rain). Very few things don't get at least 1 move which hits multiple targets.

And can we have discussion on Status Boost/Decay - When it happens. Right now, I don't know if toxic boosts as the round ends, or after 3 actions. Can we have some clarification on the matter please? Same for stat boosts (Timing by # of actions would make stuff fairer, since it means boosts are always lasting the same time).
 
I though stats boost already lasted a number of actions
+2 (2 action to get to +1)
+1 +1 (4 actions to both be back at 0)
 
Nope, right now they only decay at the end of rounds should the timer on them be reached. It means that using boost moves on certain actions is better than others.
 
Deck Knight said:
Other stuff, extended:

As far as the example in the battle of Counter, I've been smashed pretty hard by bad play through Disable as well. Disable isn't as ubiquitous, but it's pretty powerful depending on your opponent's ability to inflict damage. There are simply some moves you have to look out for on your opponent's movepool.
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Well, Disable stops you from using one move, which is reasonable. However, Counter basically makes using physical moves a horrible choice allowing the opponent to go Counter x3 without even thinking. Why should one move stop people from using physical moves half of the time??
 
Three consecutive counters, mind you, eat up energy like a Snorlax, which could give you an advantage in the long run, especially if you have a lot of HP or recovery moves.
 
I think that Counter and the like moves should cost a bit more energy, but Spenstar is right, they already do cost a lot of energy when doing a lot of damage. However, Counter and those moves don't cost enough energy considering how easily it can turn the tables in one round.

I absolutely think that weather is too powerful. If I had an Excadrill in a Sandstorm with all abilities, 5 rounds is a long time for doubled speed and 2 more BAP on STAB moves. A lot of trainers don't generally bother to give their Pokemon weather moves unless it gives them a big advantage, giving a big advantage to Pokemon like Excadrill (Excadrill not being the only one that can abuse weather).

Substitute should be fixed, but I'm not sure what it should be fixed on. I don't think that it should be 25 HP/%, because in ASB, that is a lot of health. I think it should be fixed on 20 HP or 15 HP.

Finally, trainers should be allowed to have 4 battles going at once. Some battles can last a long time, even just 3v3 Singles, and ASB isn't very fun if you don't have very much going on other than a few posts every few days. Besides, is there really a down side to doing this?
 
Counter and Mirror Coat are fine. I've had them used against me and used them myself and they are exactly as I imagine they should be.

Substitute is a pretty aggravating move, especially when it can be ranged to survive attacks with exactly 1 HP. That's pretty much the reason Substitute is so good, however. Detect / Protect / Dig are much cheaper methods of blocking status compared to Substitute, and just as widespread. I think it shouldn't have its range changed, however, I do think it should be fixed amounts at 15/20/25 of the player's choice. So they could do Substitute (15) or Substitute (20), but never Substitute (18). This prevents them from chucking out 1 HP survival Substitutes and in general balances out the move a bit based on why you'd use it in the first place.
C$FP said:
Besides, is there really a down side to doing this?
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Yes, someone has to ref the battles. If you increase the number of battles people can participate in, but don't compensate the number of referees at all, you only make problems more strained for the refs that are active. I agree with Deck on this one.
Seven Deadly Sins said:
2) Field Effect Duration

As it stands, temporary field effect moves last for an absurd amount of time- 5 entire rounds to be exact. A single field effect move has a legitimate chance to last for the entire duration of the match, and with how powerful these field effects are, they simply last for too damn long. I propose reducing them to 6 actions. This would affect the following moves: Rain Dance, Sandstorm, Sunny Day, Hail, Trick Room, Gravity, Lucky Chant, Magic Room.
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I am glad this got brought up, though it should also affect Tailwind and Wonder Room. I know Deck's adamantly against reducing them too much, and I can see why. Rain, sun, etc. affect both sides of the field equally, and so they're in a class of their own when compared to things like screens and Safeguard. I think they probably should last longer than screens, but definitely much less than they currently last. I like the idea of 9 actions, personally, but I'd also be okay with 12 actions. I specify actions there because then it lasts 4 rounds for singles and doubles, but 6 rounds for triples. Having it last 'rounds' and not 'actions' really hurts the moves in triples matches. I personally think it should go to a vote with the following options:

Should field effect moves have their durations reduced?

  • Yes
  • No
If the field effect moves do have their durations reduced, to what number should they be reduced?

  • To 9 actions
  • To 12 actions
The sub-vote ensures that Yes votes don't hurt each other against the No votes in the first poll question, while the second poll question asks everyone what the duration should go to if Yes passes in the first question.
 
Rising_Dusk said:
Counter and Mirror Coat are fine. I've had them used against me and used them myself and they are exactly as I imagine they should be.

Substitute is a pretty aggravating move, especially when it can be ranged to survive attacks with exactly 1 HP. That's pretty much the reason Substitute is so good, however. Detect / Protect / Dig are much cheaper methods of blocking status compared to Substitute, and just as widespread. I think it shouldn't have its range changed, however, I do think it should be fixed amounts at 15/20/25 of the player's choice. So they could do Substitute (15) or Substitute (20), but never Substitute (18). This prevents them from chucking out 1 HP survival Substitutes and in general balances out the move a bit based on why you'd use it in the first place.

Yes, someone has to ref the battles. If you increase the number of battles people can participate in, but don't compensate the number of referees at all, you only make problems more strained for the refs that are active. I agree with Deck on this one.

I am glad this got brought up, though it should also affect Tailwind and Wonder Room. I know Deck's adamantly against reducing them too much, and I can see why. Rain, sun, etc. affect both sides of the field equally, and so they're in a class of their own when compared to things like screens and Safeguard. I think they probably should last longer than screens, but definitely much less than they currently last. I like the idea of 9 actions, personally, but I'd also be okay with 12 actions. I specify actions there because then it lasts 4 rounds for singles and doubles, but 6 rounds for triples. Having it last 'rounds' and not 'actions' really hurts the moves in triples matches. I personally think it should go to a vote with the following options:

Should field effect moves have their durations reduced?

  • Yes
  • No
If the field effect moves do have their durations reduced, to what number should they be reduced?

  • To 9 actions
  • To 12 actions
The sub-vote ensures that Yes votes don't hurt each other against the No votes in the first poll question, while the second poll question asks everyone what the duration should go to if Yes passes in the first question.
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Only those who voted "yes" should be able to subvote, since those who voted "no" will always vote "To 12 actions" and thus skew the results (as opposed to only those supporting the proposition voting).
 
I prefer Rounds for the global effects over actions. While it is true weather lasts for fewer Rounds in triples, it's being applied to more actions each round.

Actions per round:

Singles: 6 (2 x 3)
Doubles: 12 (4 x 3)
Triples: 12 (6 x 2)

Brawl Formats: 4 x mons per side. (16 in 4, 20 in 5, etc.)

So in truth, using rounds the moves have the same effect, whereas changing them to actions would actually increase the overall effectiveness of weather in Triples+ formats. 9 Actions in a triples match can span from 4-5 rounds, 12 actions can span 6-7 rounds. And this is for each Pokemon in the battle.

As far as the global effects I am going to lower them from 5 rounds to 4 rounds, and if they are still considered OP after the next SotG, I will consider moving them down again. Some Pokemon abuse the moves better than others, but they are still a movepool option available to basically every pokemon, and said pokemon almost always has at least one move that can benefit (not including Hidden Power).
 
I think Water Sport and Mud Sport might need revisiting. The fact that they actually halve overall damage is incredibly powerful.
 
Deck Knight said:
So in truth, using rounds the moves have the same effect, whereas changing them to actions would actually increase the overall effectiveness of weather in Triples+ formats. 9 Actions in a triples match can span from 4-5 rounds, 12 actions can span 6-7 rounds. And this is for each Pokemon in the battle.
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That makes sense if you factor in the number of Pokemon, but then it begs the question of why things like screens and Safeguard last 6 actions instead of 2 rounds. Not that I want those moves to be nerfed, but you're being inconsistent again.
 
I've noticed that the number of active threads in CAP ASB is ridiculous. Seriously, it goes on for at least 4 pages, and Roleplay Planning threads are often buried.

We ought to set up sub-forums for Roleplays and Tournaments. That would make it less of a hassle to find a particular thread, and it would allow further categorizing for additional organization.

For instance, Tourneys could be sorted by the tournament's name, which would make it easier to run multiple tournaments at once. Similarly, Roleplays could be split into Raids, Battle Frontier challenges, etc. Again, this would ease the search for a particular thread by thinning the amount of active threads in a particular sub-forum.
 
mewtwo15026 said:
I've noticed that the number of active threads in CAP ASB is ridiculous. Seriously, it goes on for at least 4 pages, and Roleplay Planning threads are often buried.

We ought to set up sub-forums for Roleplays and Tournaments. That would make it less of a hassle to find a particular thread, and it would allow further categorizing for additional organization.

For instance, Tourneys could be sorted by the tournament's name, which would make it easier to run multiple tournaments at once. Similarly, Roleplays could be split into Raids, Battle Frontier challenges, etc. Again, this would ease the search for a particular thread by thinning the amount of active threads in a particular sub-forum.
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Isn't that why we introduced prefixes for? You can simply click on the prefix & all threads of that prefix come up. Problem solved.
 
Its_A_Random said:
Isn't that why we introduced prefixes for? You can simply click on the prefix & all threads of that prefix come up. Problem solved.
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It's not that easy, even clicking the prefixes brings up 4 (maybe more now) pages of roleplaying. I tried looking for the battle hall challenge thread, and its annoying sifting through all those threads especially when every other thread begins with the words "The Battle Hall" because they are all people's challenges. I subforum mightn't be necessary or even helpful though; all that needs to be done is to regularly update the stickied RP Approval Thread with links to the main RP, but this hasn't been done; the "list of approved RP's" consists entirely of this:
DarkSlay's Dojo
Acklow's Berry Pies
Battle Subway
Darkamber's Mine N' Forge
Battle Factory (WIP)
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If this could be updated with the actual threads (eg Battle Hall, Raids, Contest Hall etc) that would be immensely useful.
 
Rising_Dusk said:
That makes sense if you factor in the number of Pokemon, but then it begs the question of why things like screens and Safeguard last 6 actions instead of 2 rounds. Not that I want those moves to be nerfed, but you're being inconsistent again.
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Screens/Safeguard aren't global effects, they're localized effects that can be targeted to more than just the Pokemon in the Users side. Functionally it's no different that Magnet Rise or Disable, other localized effects.

Though in truth no one has really used screens like in the descriptions, since they seem to end up being applied universally.In any event, for a lot of the attacks I'm invoking Rule of Balance when it comes to managing effect strength/duration. Light Screen and Reflect have no drawbacks for their side and so subsequently are limited to actions. Weather has such drastic implications both tangible and intangible for both sides that it is denominated in rounds. Other global effects are also powerful and perhaps less drastic, but still generally worth using. Balance > theoretical in-game consistency. From a practical perspective, reducing BAP by 5 for 6 actions and only being countered by 2 attacks (BB and Snatch or Taunt the action of) is the similarly powerful to increasing BAP by 3 for 5 rounds being countered by 3 other attacks, 1 of which actually reduces the BAP of the same attack by 3 instead.

mewtwo15026: There are Categories listed above where the threads begin. Use them, it will make your life a lot easier. They're almost a necessity just to get around at this point.
 
The thread has moved on a bit, but someone brought up Double Team. It looks like there is confusion as to whether EQ and friends breaks all doubles, and while I think the official line is that it doesn't, I think it should.

EDIT: I know Flora and I both didn't know that. But okay.
 
Atheno afaik any multi-hit moves will break whatever clones they hit. In fact this was even mentioned when Double Team was first brought up as a reason why it's fine the way it is.
 
I want to say that this is in no way a criticism of certain member's reffing styles/existing policies. This is me requesting codification.

But if no target is specified for a move, doesn't it make more sense to ask the poster instead of flipping a coin? IIRC the proper response in this scenario isn't in the data thread.
 
Venser said:
But if no target is specified for a move, doesn't it make more sense to ask the poster instead of flipping a coin? IIRC the proper response in this scenario isn't in the data thread.
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I think that a referee should never be obligated to ask for clarification from either party of a match. It is just like what happens when someone accidentally uses Counter against a Ghost-type, Mirror Coat against a Dark-type, or what-have-you. The referee should not interfere with the battle and provide either player insight that could potentially change their actions and the outcome of the match. If a targeted attack doesn't have an attack specified, the referee should never be forced to ask the player in question; they should only do as they are told. I am OK with referees having the freedom to do what they feel is right in such a case. If they want to ask the player, fine, that's okay, but they should never be forced to do it.
Deck Knight said:
Screens/Safeguard aren't global effects, they're localized effects that can be targeted to more than just the Pokemon in the Users side. Functionally it's no different that Magnet Rise or Disable, other localized effects.

Though in truth no one has really used screens like in the descriptions, since they seem to end up being applied universally.In any event, for a lot of the attacks I'm invoking Rule of Balance when it comes to managing effect strength/duration. Light Screen and Reflect have no drawbacks for their side and so subsequently are limited to actions. Weather has such drastic implications both tangible and intangible for both sides that it is denominated in rounds. Other global effects are also powerful and perhaps less drastic, but still generally worth using. Balance > theoretical in-game consistency. From a practical perspective, reducing BAP by 5 for 6 actions and only being countered by 2 attacks (BB and Snatch or Taunt the action of) is the similarly powerful to increasing BAP by 3 for 5 rounds being countered by 3 other attacks, 1 of which actually reduces the BAP of the same attack by 3 instead.
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This is an acceptable and logical explanation. Thanks for that; it's good to know the train of thought that went into how you balanced these moves.
Also, I wanted to bring up something else that I think should be done in this SotG. I want to propose the following:

  • For the price of 1 MC, you should be able to change the type of your Hidden Power in the Prize Claim thread.
  • For the price of 1 TC, you should be able to change the nature of your Pokemon in the Prize Claim thread.
This is something that has been long in coming, I believe. It is silly to be forced to re-buy your Pokemon if you have made a scrub mistake in a younger ASB age. Let's say you got Hidden Power Grass and you really didn't want to, but you've invested so many tokens into the Pokemon that it's not worth it to re-buy it. You're stuck with a bad move. You should be able to spend a token to fix that. The same goes with natures. Sometimes you think this one nature will really work in ASB and so you build up and evolve this guy, only to find out that you really wish you had picked another nature. Instead of screwing players over and making them re-buy the Pokemon or "deal with it", we could implement cheap prices for changing Hidden Power types and natures. People could claim them in the Prize Claim thread like all other things, and we'd all be better off for it.

What do you all think about that?
 
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