np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[XienZo]

I keep seeing the SwSw abillity, versus the abusers of SwSw arguement, and it really is blwoing my mind.

On one hand, you have people saying ban Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops. On the other, people are saying just ban the ability.

Really people???

Think about it this way. If you are going to build a competitive team, are you seriously going to consider using Pokes such as Luvdisk, Floatzel, and (god forbid) a Magikarp on your teams? No, you probably aren't. So why exactly would it matter if Smogon just blanket banned SwSw to Ubers?

No, personally, I don't want SwSw banned, but iff it is, should we really be spending extra time that could be spent on something else voting weather or not somethin like Luvdisk is Uber?

Would anyone want to use Luvdisc and Magikarp?

Hell no.

Would anyone want to test Luvdisc and Magikarp?

Hell no.

Would anyone have to test out Luvdisc and Magikarp if we're testing abusers?

Hell no.



I mean, seriously, guys, testing the weather threats doesn't suddenly mean that we're testing all SwSw pokemon.


Testing weather threats means we test the actual THREATS, SwSw or not, and we don't touch any of the non-threats, SwSw or not.



Also, unfortunately, SwSw are not comprised of Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Luvdisc, and Magikarp. As it turns out, there are some pokemon inbetween, like Gorebyss, that you WOULD want to use in a competitive team that may/may not be broken.

 

[Joel]

Would anyone want to use Luvdisc and Magikarp?

Hell no.

Would anyone want to test Luvdisc and Magikarp?

Hell no.

Would anyone have to test out Luvdisc and Magikarp if we're testing abusers?

Hell no.



I mean, seriously, guys, testing the weather threats doesn't suddenly mean that we're testing all SwSw pokemon.


Testing weather threats means we test the actual THREATS, SwSw or not, and we don't touch any of the non-threats, SwSw or not.



Also, unfortunately, SwSw are not comprised of Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, Luvdisc, and Magikarp. As it turns out, there are some pokemon inbetween, like Gorebyss, that you WOULD want to use in a competitive team that may/may not be broken.

I've seen people claim that thing is broken, as well, but as a SmashPasser, which is another topic. I seee your point, but you could have probably picked a different Poke to sell me on.

 

[Pocket]

Go back a few more pages and you will find a list of other usable Swift Swimmers. Specifically pages 21-24. I wouldn't disregard Floatzel, with its decent movepool offering coverage with Crunch, Ice Punch, Waterfall, and Low Kick, as well as some other nifty options such as Taunt, Sub Punch, Bulk Up, Agility, and Baton Pass. 115 Speed is amazing, allowing it to check stuff outside of rain.

Golduck - Hypnosis, Calm Mind, Focus Blast, Confuse Ray
Poliwrath - Hypnosis, Belly Drum, Encore, Bulk Up
Qwilfish - Substitute, Pain Split, Thunder Wave, Poison Jab, Explosion, Taunt, Destiny Bond, Swords Dance, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Aqua Jet

 

[iSkittles]

Has anyone had some success with a team that doesn't use any weather inducers? I'm interested to use one and want to know the best route to go.

 

[miniman96]

Has anyone had some success with a team that doesn't use any weather inducers? I'm interested to use one and want to know the best route to go.

I've been using a team without any weather inducers (link in sig) and to great success, staying in the top 300 easily. And can also deal with weather sweepers/abusers.

On topic, I have to say that this whole swift swim argument that been a great read and a very interesting concept.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I agree with what others have said tbh. I think we've potentially banned way too much with the complex ban we're using at the moment.

Plus, I honestly think, in terms of simplicity and consistency, it's better to just ban the broken Pokemon, rather than nerf them (and nerfing others that don't need to be nerfed in the process). It's quite possible there'd only have to be 3 or 4 Pokemon banned anyway.

 

[badabing]

Has anyone had some success with a team that doesn't use any weather inducers? I'm interested to use one and want to know the best route to go.

The most viable nonweather is probably full stall. I've been using nonweather hyper off. mostly this round and it works alright, but it is extremely difficult to play around dory. Personally, I don't find dory broken at all given counter-weather, hard defensive checks like gli and tang, super effective priority, and ballooners like Terak (I'm pretty sure the majority of the voting pool feels the same way), but his presence in OU severely limits the offensive playstyle.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Just wondering but did anyone who is for the pro Drizzle + Swift Swim even take the time to do some calculations and attempt to evaluate how it would affect the Metagame, instead of just saying ‘I like the idea’.

......


Ok, I’ll do statistics for the 5 Pokemon you call weak i.e Armaldo, Floatzel, Golduck, Poliwrath and Qwilfish against the best counters that would exist for them.


Poliwrath

(I’ll provide statistics for both the Belly Drum and Bulk Up set, Belly Drum set will be Jolly Nature, and Bulk Up set will be Adamant Nature.)

Skarmory Impish Max HP/Def – Bulk Up Waterfall:
442 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 138 - 163 (41.32% - 48.80%)

Skarmory Impish Max HP/Def – Belly Drum Waterfall:
1614 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 501 - 589 (150.00% - 176.35%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP – Bulk Up Brick Break:
442 Atk vs 299 Def & 352 HP (75 Base Power): 240 - 284 (68.18% - 80.68%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP – Belly Drum Brick Break:
1614 Atk vs 299 Def & 352 HP (75 Base Power): 870 - 1026 (247.16% - 291.48%)

Rotom-W Bold Max HP/Def – Bulk Up Waterfall:
442 Atk vs 334 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 85 - 101 (27.96% - 33.22%)

Rotom-W Bold Max HP/Def – Belly Drum Waterfall:
1614 Atk vs 334 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 311 - 366 (102.30% - 120.39%)

Result – This Pokemon can utilize two great move sets and the opponent will therefore have to make accurate decisions in order to try and prevent being swept. The more dangerous of the two would probably be the belly drum set, so if you have a Pokemon that will be easily killed by Poliwrath such as Gliscor/Blissey it’s best to stay in and attack because you don’t want this Pokemon setting up Belly Drum/Substitute on you.


Qwilfish - Adamant Nature – SD – LO

(Destiny Bond can be used as a last resort if necessary.)

Skarmory Impish Max HP/Def - Waterfall:
824 Atk vs 354 Def & 383 HP (120 Base Power): 300 - 354 (78.33% - 92.43%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP – Waterfall:
824 Atk vs 299 Def & 352 HP (120 Base Power): 177 - 209 (50.28% - 59.38%)

Rotom-W Bold Max HP/Def – Poison Jab:
824 Atk vs 334 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 211 - 250 (69.41% - 82.24%)

Rotom-W No EV’s in HP/Def – Poison Jab:
824 Atk vs 205 Def & 341 HP (80 Base Power): 346 - 408 (101.47% - 119.65%)

Result – This Pokemon has four truly effective counters: Ferrothorn, Quasgire, Gastrodon and Jellicent, which are all resistant. (Warning - do not use a neutral wall such as Skarmory to counter to this Pokemon as it will take extremely heavy damage.) IF you always run one of the four resistant walls I mentioned and keep it alive, you won't need to worry about Qwilfish in rain =)


Floatzel - Adamant Nature – Bulk Up

(Since this is a Bulk Up set – Floatzel can afford to run Leftovers with HP EVs seeing as with 0 speed EVs it’s going to be outrunning other swift swimmers by a long shot, the only thing that will come close to it is Golduck and Qwilfish and with just 16EV’s in speed it will outrun it’s adamant nature.)

Skarmory Impish Max HP/Def - Waterfall:
508 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 159 - 187 (47.60% - 55.99%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP - Low Kick:
508 Atk vs 299 Def & 352 HP (100 Base Power): 244 - 288 (69.32% - 81.82%)

Jellicent Bold Max HP/Def - Crunch:
508 Atk vs 262 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 224 - 264 (55.45% - 65.35%)

Jellicent Calm Max HP – Crunch:
508 Atk vs 176 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 330 - 390 (81.68% - 96.53%)

Rotom-W No EV’s in HP/Def - Waterfall:
508 Atk vs 205 Def & 241 HP (120 Base Power): 159 - 188 (65.98% - 78.01%)

Result – The key to this set is to utilize both boosts from Bulk Up in addition to his great coverage. Although this set cannot OHKO the few selected Floatzel counters, it is still a force to be reckoned with, especially considering the only thing you can do is wall it because no other Pokemon will be faster than it in rain and it isn’t priority weak to any moves either, so best pack those Floatzel counters guys.


Golduck – Modest Nature – Calm Mind - LO

(This set can either run LO or lefts, but I think LO would be more appropriate on this Pokemon as it would gain more kills.)

Deoxys-D Calm Max HP/Sp.def – Hydro Pump:
617 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (180 Base Power): 259 - 306 (85.20% - 100.66%)

Tentacruel Calm Max HP/Sp.def – Hydro Pump:
617 Atk vs 372 Def & 364 HP (180 Base Power): 160 - 189 (43.96% - 51.92%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP/Sp.def – Focus Blast:
617 Atk vs 364 Def & 352 HP (120 Base Power): 292 - 344 (82.95% - 97.73%)

Blissey Bold Max HP – Hydro Pump:
617 Atk vs 304 Def & 714 HP (180 Base Power): 391 - 462 (54.76% - 64.71%)

Result – Well this weak Pokemon is looking to 2KO Blissey in the rain, but the good news is that it can only have Calm Mind plus 3 attacks, so I just need to work out what move it lacks – Focus Blast/Ice beam/Hidden Power, and then switch into an appropriate counter after it kills two of my Pokemon.


Armaldo - Jolly Nature – SD – LO

Gliscor Impish Max HP/Def – Aqua Tail:
907 Atk vs 354 Def & 383 HP (135 Base Power): 496 - 584 (129.50% - 152.48%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP – X-Scizzor:
907 Atk vs 299 Def & 352 HP (80 Base Power): 261 - 307 (74.15% - 87.22%)

Rotom-W Bold Max HP/Def - Stone Edge:
907 Atk vs 344 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 339 - 400 (111.51% - 131.58%)

Jellicent Bold Max HP/Def Stone Edge:
907 Atk vs 262 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 445 - 525 (110.15% - 129.95%)

Skarmory Impish Max HP/Def – Stone Edge:
907 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 280 - 331 (83.83% - 99.10%)

Result – Pretty much the most dangerous of the weak Pokemon. This Pokemon doesn’t even need the Water stab boost from rain to wreak havoc on OU.


Question

What is the difference between Excadrill and Swift Swimmers?

Excadrill is priority weak to two moves whereas Swift swimmers (with the exception of Armaldo) are resistant to both Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch, whilst also taking neutral damage from Mach Punch and Extreme Speed.

Now that it’s established we won’t be easily killing swift swimmers by priority, let’s take a look at our other options. Nothing (except Deoxy-s) will be out speeding Drizzle Swift swimmers, therefore we can’t outrun and revenge kill them easily either. I guess we’re only left with one option – to counter wall them.

Re-read the above statistics and tell me you want Drizzle + Swift Swim in OU.

 

[Yoshiken]

Doing my hide tags to prevent WoTs again.

Response to Kefka's post re: the four weathers.

Kinda funny to me that a Lefties Megahorn from Max Attack Escavalier deals like 60% to him and Max Def Escavalier can survive 2 +0 Earthquakes :P

Hm. Just went to run the calcs on this. Assuming one Escavalier, it has to choose between Impish and Adamant. With Adamant vs. 252/252/4 Adamant Life Orb Excadrill...
252 Atk Adamant Escavalier Megahorn vs 4 HP/0 Def Adamant Excadrill: 46.13% - 54.42%
252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs 4 HP/252 Def Adamant Escavalier: 65.25% - 76.95%

252 Atk Impish Escavalier Megahorn vs 4 HP/0 Def Adamant Excadrill: 42.27% - 49.72%
252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs 4 HP/252 Def Impish Escavalier: 59.57% - 70.21%

So yeah, not sure where that one's coming from. With LO damage added in, Exca's taking about 70% from Adamant Escavalier, but that's getting KOed in the process.

Oh, Toxicroak isn't useless :L(btw, how exactly does Croak stop Sand teams? Whenever I tried, he kept getting rofl-stomped by EQs or just out sped >.>)

Usually Sub on the switch and then Drain Punch. :| It's got good damage against Exca/TTar, which are at least the main concerns when against Sand. (Relies on having taken out most of the other threats, though, or at least getting lucky with prediction: Ice or Drain Punch?)
On the whole, I agreed with most of what you said, but just thought I'd point out those.

Responding to testing Manaphy/Thundurus in a 'suspect ladder'

I would definitely consider Manaphy for testing in OU if Drizzle is banned. Thundurus, I'm not so sure about.

Personally I don't consider Thundurus to be ban-worthy anyway. I think the only advantages it has over Latios are Prankster and no-miss STAB Thunder in the rain. Latios possesses more power, lacks a Stealth Rock weakness, and has better type coverage (not to mention the infamous Specs Draco Meteor), which allow it to destroy many of its checks (with good prediction) better than Thundurus can. Latios can even run Calm Mind and/or bulkier sets so it isn't as easily revenge killed by Starmie, something I don't believe Thundurus can do.

Manaphy, yup, sure. Thundurus, I'm not so sure about either.
...for quite the opposite reason. I don't think Thundurus' selling point is weather at all. I've been running it on a non-weather team lately with LO - Taunt/HP Ice/TWave/TBolt. It's absolutely shredded things. It pretty much never fails to get a KO unless I'm getting it killed to let something else come in for free - usually because that'll get me a win. All Thundurus gains from Rain is Thunder > TBolt and, as such, an ability to get some extra KOs without LO. That's... not that big a deal, honestly. I'd say we need this suspect ladder ASAP, with Drizzle gone and Thundurus/Manaphy around, just to see if Thundurus is broken there, but I highly suspect it would be. (At least, as broken as it is now. YMMV.)
And yes, on that note, I agree with the idea of a Suspect Ladder, since it would be really useful knowing exactly what impact our bans will have. I'm not saying that because "Hey, let's ban/keep things based on what will become viable!" but more because it shuts down arguments like "If Drizzle goes, Drought/SS will soon follow!" ...How can anyone prove that without a testing ladder?

Rant about Roosh's 'You're too lazy for Ability+Pokemon bans' post.

It's not a stupid rule, it's you people being too lazy to actually think for a few seconds and say "Hey, maybe we should actually try something instead of banning everything outright."

Okay, not the only example, but the main one I found when reading through.
It is one thing to call people out on an obvious fallacy. It's another to tell people they're doing things wrong for not agreeing with you.
Before you post in this topic again, actually consider what the fuck you're posting. If it wasn't obvious, the competitive Pokemon community is trying to make competitive Pokemon good. We're not just going to ignore something through laziness, we do these things for a reason. Do NOT just assume we're doing it for a dumb reason, solely because you don't agree.
[/rant]

My views on Aldaron's Proposal as it stands.

I'm of two minds on this.
On one side, I'd rather avoid complex bans. It is annoying to explain to players unfamiliar with this gen that, well, you can use Politoed and Ludicolo, but you can't use the two together if they have these abilities. If either one doesn't have that ability, you can use them, though.
On the other side, it's a nice balance as things are now. I'm not gonna lie, I don't have a clue what the meta was like with SS+Drizzle available, but I can imagine it would be utterly disgusting - Rain teams are good enough as it is now, I don't want to imagine what they'd be like with a SwSwSweeper as well. >_> I'd rather have one complex ban than, say, 8 normal bans. (And I don't think that's an unfair assumption - we're looking at 2 SmashPassers, Golduck, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Floatzel, Armaldo, Kabutops there? Probably more!)

We need to seriously look at Drizzle and whether or not it's broken - having stats for the teams at the top of the ladder would be useful! - before we can even start adjusting Aldaron's Proposal, but I think, if Drizzle is staying around, then the Proposal should as well. It's clearly done well at keeping Drizzle in line and breaking that (and banning a few other Pokes) just to keep away from complex bans seems counter-productive.
(Compare to Blaziken, which is one ban or one complex ban. Kinda obvious which is preferable there.)

 

[cabforpitt]

And these frail pokemon are magically able to set up with out being slautered

 

[Yoshiken]

One turn of setup? Yeah, they can quite easily. You ever tried switching an offensive Pokemon into Forretress? It doesn't tend to end well for the Forre. Or Bronzong. Or something that's weak against you, on that note. Or a SmashPasser, even! Yeah, there's a few options for one turn of setup.

 

[Temperantia]

And these frail pokemon are magically able to set up with out being slautered

Poliwrath. Do I need to say more? Barring sending it out against a strong electric, grass, flying or psychic type, it's not going to be bothered by your attempts to stop it. Sub->BD->Sweep is gg for your opponent.

Armaldo isn't exactly tissue paper on the physical side either...

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Has anyone had some success with a team that doesn't use any weather inducers? I'm interested to use one and want to know the best route to go.

I'm doing reasonably well with Bulk Up+Dragon Dance Scrafty and Conkeldurr as Sand checks, SpDef Rachi as my main check with Salamence and Rotom-W as secondary as back up against Rain and a Latios meant to abuse Rain while also killing T-Tar with Conk to check Sun.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

People need to calm down. If Poliwrath, Armaldo, etc. are broken, they'll get banned.

 

[Yoshiken]

Shuckle: Read what I said re: Aldaron's Proposal. Banning a ridiculous number of Pokemon just to remove the Proposal is counter-productive. We should do what we can to create an enjoyable and variety-filled metagame, and if that means having a complex ban, then fine, as long as it can be justified.

 

[Lirg]

Shuckle: Read what I said re: Aldaron's Proposal. Banning a ridiculous number of Pokemon just to remove the Proposal is counter-productive. We should do what we can to create an enjoyable and variety-filled metagame, and if that means having a complex ban, then fine, as long as it can be justified.

I agree with you.

Complex bans work and it's not more difficult to understand than the other kind of bans. Like I said, here in Belgium, there was a tournament (maybe several) where a complex ban (ability+ability) was made, and nobody has said anything about it.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Hm. Just went to run the calcs on this. Assuming one Escavalier, it has to choose between Impish and Adamant. With Adamant vs. 252/252/4 Adamant Life Orb Excadrill...
252 Atk Adamant Escavalier Megahorn vs 4 HP/0 Def Adamant Excadrill: 46.13% - 54.42%
252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs 4 HP/252 Def Adamant Escavalier: 65.25% - 76.95%

252 Atk Impish Escavalier Megahorn vs 4 HP/0 Def Adamant Excadrill: 42.27% - 49.72%
252 Atk Adamant Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs 4 HP/252 Def Impish Escavalier: 59.57% - 70.21%

So yeah, not sure where that one's coming from. With LO damage added in, Exca's taking about 70% from Adamant Escavalier, but that's getting KOed in the process.

Hmm, maybe the Excadrill I hit had less Defense or something and I think I had a different spread to survive a +2 EQ(Less Attack).

Oh well. Still nearly 2HKOs with a NVE move <,<

 

[alphatron]

Holy crap, people are still using jolly balloon excadrill. Please...stop...no...more...

This is the first time since round 2 that I've actually attempted to ladder up to voting requirements. I must say that even if I don't meet the voting requirements now, I haven't faced anything that is truly game breaking or obnoxious. I still think that Latios needs to see use outside of choice specs (life orb barely scraps the cover). And I can only say that I'm not yet high enough on the ladder to see any proof of thunduros being broken.

Edit: I see exactly what people mean when they talk about hax smacking them off the ladder. +2 Volcorona under sunlight? Screw that. Thunder Wave. The effect of paralysis is that you don't move for the rest of the battle. In comes latios to make fun of you. By killing you slowly with a sunlight nerfed surf.

 

[alexwolf]

Just wondering but did anyone who is for the pro Drizzle + Swift Swim even take the time to do some calculations and attempt to evaluate how it would affect the Metagame, instead of just saying ‘I like the idea’.

......


Ok, I’ll do statistics for the 5 Pokemon you call weak i.e Armaldo, Floatzel, Golduck, Poliwrath and Qwilfish against the best counters that would exist for them.

I don't know who called these SSers weak but honestly it doesn't matter...If any of the SSers proves to be broken then it will get banned!Banning 5 or 6 SSers is much better than banning 18 SSers!

Poliwrath

(I’ll provide statistics for both the Belly Drum and Bulk Up set, Belly Drum set will be Jolly Nature, and Bulk Up set will be Adamant Nature.)

Skarmory Impish Max HP/Def – Bulk Up Waterfall:
442 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 138 - 163 (41.32% - 48.80%)

Skarmory Impish Max HP/Def – Belly Drum Waterfall:
1614 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 501 - 589 (150.00% - 176.35%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP – Bulk Up Brick Break:
442 Atk vs 299 Def & 352 HP (75 Base Power): 240 - 284 (68.18% - 80.68%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP – Belly Drum Brick Break:
1614 Atk vs 299 Def & 352 HP (75 Base Power): 870 - 1026 (247.16% - 291.48%)

Rotom-W Bold Max HP/Def – Bulk Up Waterfall:
442 Atk vs 334 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 85 - 101 (27.96% - 33.22%)

Rotom-W Bold Max HP/Def – Belly Drum Waterfall:
1614 Atk vs 334 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 311 - 366 (102.30% - 120.39%)

Result – This Pokemon can utilize two great move sets and the opponent will therefore have to make accurate decisions in order to try and prevent being swept. The more dangerous of the two would probably be the belly drum set, so if you have a Pokemon that will be easily killed by Poliwrath such as Gliscor/Blissey it’s best to stay in and attack because you don’t want this Pokemon setting up Belly Drum/Substitute on you.

I like that you clearly state that you will mention the best counters but you don't mention Jellicent in there???You list it everywhere else but you don't here where it is immune to both stabs and return resists ice punch...Also Bulk Up sets get easily walled by Bulk up tociacroak who sets up on it...So that's 2 counters that you ''missed''.

Qwilfish - Adamant Nature – SD – LO

(Destiny Bond can be used as a last resort if necessary.)

Skarmory Impish Max HP/Def - Waterfall:
824 Atk vs 354 Def & 383 HP (120 Base Power): 300 - 354 (78.33% - 92.43%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP – Waterfall:
824 Atk vs 299 Def & 352 HP (120 Base Power): 177 - 209 (50.28% - 59.38%)

Rotom-W Bold Max HP/Def – Poison Jab:
824 Atk vs 334 Def & 304 HP (80 Base Power): 211 - 250 (69.41% - 82.24%)

Rotom-W No EV’s in HP/Def – Poison Jab:
824 Atk vs 205 Def & 341 HP (80 Base Power): 346 - 408 (101.47% - 119.65%)

Result – This Pokemon has four truly effective counters: Ferrothorn, Quasgire, Gastrodon and Jellicent, which are all resistant. (Warning - do not use a neutral wall such as Skarmory to counter to this Pokemon as it will take extremely heavy damage.) IF you always run one of the four resistant walls I mentioned and keep it alive, you won't need to worry about Qwilfish in rain =)

So Rotom-w and Ferrothorn either straight up wall and kill it or just outstall it with protect + leech seed or pain split + wow.Also again you accidentaly forgot to mention Jellicent which burns him and then stalls him to death...

Floatzel - Adamant Nature – Bulk Up

(Since this is a Bulk Up set – Floatzel can afford to run Leftovers with HP EVs seeing as with 0 speed EVs it’s going to be outrunning other swift swimmers by a long shot, the only thing that will come close to it is Golduck and Qwilfish and with just 16EV’s in speed it will outrun it’s adamant nature.)

Skarmory Impish Max HP/Def - Waterfall:
508 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 159 - 187 (47.60% - 55.99%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP - Low Kick:
508 Atk vs 299 Def & 352 HP (100 Base Power): 244 - 288 (69.32% - 81.82%)

Jellicent Bold Max HP/Def - Crunch:
508 Atk vs 262 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 224 - 264 (55.45% - 65.35%)

Jellicent Calm Max HP – Crunch:
508 Atk vs 176 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 330 - 390 (81.68% - 96.53%)

Rotom-W No EV’s in HP/Def - Waterfall:
508 Atk vs 205 Def & 241 HP (120 Base Power): 159 - 188 (65.98% - 78.01%)

Result – The key to this set is to utilize both boosts from Bulk Up in addition to his great coverage. Although this set cannot OHKO the few selected Floatzel counters, it is still a force to be reckoned with, especially considering the only thing you can do is wall it because no other Pokemon will be faster than it in rain and it isn’t priority weak to any moves either, so best pack those Floatzel counters guys.

Here you forgot to mention Bulk up toxicroak which just uses floatzel as setup fodder!The only move which hurts him is return but seeing that waterfall deals more damage to the main target of return(rotom-w)i guess that return would be non-existent...Also you don't mention Porygon 2 which kills with t-bolt and resttalk gyara which takes everything easily and phazes away....

Golduck – Modest Nature – Calm Mind - LO

(This set can either run LO or lefts, but I think LO would be more appropriate on this Pokemon as it would gain more kills.)

Deoxys-D Calm Max HP/Sp.def – Hydro Pump:
617 Atk vs 460 Def & 304 HP (180 Base Power): 259 - 306 (85.20% - 100.66%)

Tentacruel Calm Max HP/Sp.def – Hydro Pump:
617 Atk vs 372 Def & 364 HP (180 Base Power): 160 - 189 (43.96% - 51.92%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP/Sp.def – Focus Blast:
617 Atk vs 364 Def & 352 HP (120 Base Power): 292 - 344 (82.95% - 97.73%)

Blissey Bold Max HP – Hydro Pump:
617 Atk vs 304 Def & 714 HP (180 Base Power): 391 - 462 (54.76% - 64.71%)

Result – Well this weak Pokemon is looking to 2KO Blissey in the rain, but the good news is that it can only have Calm Mind plus 3 attacks, so I just need to work out what move it lacks – Focus Blast/Ice beam/Hidden Power, and then switch into an appropriate counter after it kills two of my Pokemon.

I wonder again why the hell you don't mention rotom-w who murders with thunder or t-bolt even after a CM and takes everything bar the rare hp grass(which leaves you walled by ferro so...).

Armaldo - Jolly Nature – SD – LO

Gliscor Impish Max HP/Def – Aqua Tail:
907 Atk vs 354 Def & 383 HP (135 Base Power): 496 - 584 (129.50% - 152.48%)

Ferrothorn Careful Max HP – X-Scizzor:
907 Atk vs 299 Def & 352 HP (80 Base Power): 261 - 307 (74.15% - 87.22%)

Rotom-W Bold Max HP/Def - Stone Edge:
907 Atk vs 344 Def & 304 HP (120 Base Power): 339 - 400 (111.51% - 131.58%)

Jellicent Bold Max HP/Def Stone Edge:
907 Atk vs 262 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 445 - 525 (110.15% - 129.95%)

Skarmory Impish Max HP/Def – Stone Edge:
907 Atk vs 416 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 280 - 331 (83.83% - 99.10%)

Result – Pretty much the most dangerous of the weak Pokemon. This Pokemon doesn’t even need the Water stab boost from rain to wreak havoc on OU.

Once again you forgot to metnion Bulk up toxicroak which resists everything bar eq(since you said aqua tail as the third move)and sets up on him...Also where the fuck is scizor which can take everything and ohko back with BP???

Question

What is the difference between Excadrill and Swift Swimmers?

Excadrill is priority weak to two moves whereas Swift swimmers (with the exception of Armaldo) are resistant to both Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch, whilst also taking neutral damage from Mach Punch and Extreme Speed.

Now that it’s established we won’t be easily killing swift swimmers by priority, let’s take a look at our other options. Nothing (except Deoxy-s) will be out speeding Drizzle Swift swimmers, therefore we can’t outrun and revenge kill them easily either. I guess we’re only left with one option – to counter wall them.

Re-read the above statistics and tell me you want Drizzle + Swift Swim in OU.

Every broken SSer will be banned so you don't have to worry.Also your list says nothing...Nothing!You only mention hard counters and not checks...and i don't know if you remember but 5th gen is all about checks.You nowhere mention about Whimsicott whoch stops most of them is they chose to setup and can take a lot of punish ment.You never mention Thundurus's t-wave which stops all of them...You never mention scarf tyranitar or scarf ninetales which can revnge kill some of them...And generally you mention only things that help your point....Your post is so biased it is not even funny...Pls next time post an actual theorytical list where you take evrything in acount and not only what fits you best when you try to prove something...

 

[Glen ^^]

Shuckle: Read what I said re: Aldaron's Proposal. Banning a ridiculous number of Pokemon just to remove the Proposal is counter-productive. We should do what we can to create an enjoyable and variety-filled metagame, and if that means having a complex ban, then fine, as long as it can be justified.

We already went as far as banning the best of each weather during four Suspect Rounds (Garchomp, Manaphy, Blaziken, Bright Powder, Swift Swim) to archieve what we consider a "balanced" metagame (even through if all went back to OU, they would balance each other like always did) why stop here?

It's already a dumb decision (sorry if this sounds offensive) to ban stuff based on arbitrary definitions when the metagame still has so much to change thanks to Dream World. Might as well not take the lazy path now.

 

[XienZo]

Re-read the above statistics and tell me you want Drizzle + Swift Swim in OU.

So we can tell if the above statistics actually apply >_>

We all know how the numbers initially portrayed Rhyperior and Haxorus (Hey guyz, Porygon-Z OHKO Blissey!), and we know how THAT turned out, don't we?

The whole point of suspect testing is to verify/disprove our theorymon. We should never be using theorymon to rationalize NOT doing suspect testing, as that defeats the point of the entire system.

 

[IcyMan28]

Shuckle: Read what I said re: Aldaron's Proposal. Banning a ridiculous number of Pokemon just to remove the Proposal is counter-productive. We should do what we can to create an enjoyable and variety-filled metagame, and if that means having a complex ban, then fine, as long as it can be justified.

For one, Aldaron never intended for his proposal to be permanent - it was meant as a stop to the "ban all weather" floodgates that would have inevitably opened at the time. You can read the thread in PR if you don't believe me.

Second, who says we would be banning a ridiculous number of pokemon? Kingdra is the only absolutely broken one, IMO. Kabutops has its fair list of checks (Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Suicune, Conkeldurr, etc), as do Ludicolo and the rest. I don't think the likes of Armaldo would even be considered for common use, let alone a ban.

Or, if they all end up broken, we ban Drizzle itself. It isn't even an additional ban, because in exchange for the ability/DrizzleToed we would get Manaphy.

 

[BurningMan]

@ IcyMan: You are seriously under estimating the power of the swift swimmers, almost everyone of them is better than venusaur and that thing is a monster under the sun. Setting them up might seem hard with low defenses, but if you got insane speed and double stab its not that hard to force something out.

Specs Hydro Pumps in the rain are insanely powerful even Politoed with its meager 95 base SpA can OHKO a shit load of things and 2HKO everything in OU bar Blissey, Latias Virzion and Waterabsorbers. Pokemon like this are almost mandatory on every Team now.
Kingdra, Ludicolo and Kabutops were the most used, because of their useful secondary types that made them a little better than things like Golduck. However the main reason they were good to begin with was the fact that they, become super fast and also get absurdly strong water attacks that are almost impossible to wall, this also can be done by Poliwrath, Golduck, Omastar and the rest of the pack. The only things that aren't broken with this ability are propably Lumineon, Luvdisc and Beartic so why should we ban all swift swimmers bar them making them unusable even in the lower tiers where they fit quite well.

 

[Glen ^^]

@ Burning Man: Venusaur (and most Chlorophyl users) however can do something about his offenses (Growth). Most Swift Swimmers have to deal with their crappy stats, even those who can boost are stopped cold by Ferrothorn/grassers with decent spcl def or are so fragile they'll get one shotted on spot.

+2 LO Modest Venusaur Solar Beam vs max/min Blissey: 50.4% - 59.4%
Specs Modest Kingdra Hydro Pump vs max/min Blissey: 42% - 49.6%

But Venusaur isn't walled by the #2 top OU and doesn't have to risk a miss.

Pseudo STAB under rain is over rated. Not even Kingdra is broken under it. I don't even know from where the common sense that Kingdra, Kabutops and Ludicolo were defaults ubers should Swift Swim be OU again.

 

[Olijolly]

I'm not actually too sure whether ludicolo and kabutops were gambreaking under rain but kingdra was ridiculou, especially specs set. That thing under rain with modest nature and surf literally ripped things into shreds. Most of the time, I'd fInd myself spamming surf only and didn't even bother with hydro pump and Draco meteor

That thing was a beast