np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

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Woodchuck said:
Amoonguss is pretty poor without Regenerator tbh, the only advantage he has over Celebi is Spore, and Celebi is still better in a defensive role in any case.

On another note, Jirachi is ridiculously good in rain as a SubCM user. Substitute / Calm Mind / Thunder / Water Pulse. What it doesn't beat outright it haxes to death, and it sets up on a ton of stuff. There is a very short list of things that counter it outright:

  • Gastrodon
  • Quagsire
And it's near impossible to check Jirachi without coming away crippled or greatly weakened by status or Thunder/Water Pulse spam.

Side note: Jirachi is made even better with Toxic Spikes support.
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not even quaggy really can, simply because jirachi + 20% chance to hurt yourself after taking a water pulse = loss.
 
In theory, the rare perish song celebi is more then capable to wall the Jirachi set. I was also thinking shuffling-Dragonite might be an issue too. (but I don't know how much thunder does to it, to be honest)
 
MaestroXXVI said:
just out curiosity, can someone provide me with a safe switch-in to scarf darmanitan under sunlight that isnt named politoed?
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Gyrados is the big one that comes to mind, rock slide might be a problem though. Although, most bulky waters will be able to bring it down with there defenses, thanks to it spaming flare blitz, even if they are taken down.
 
252 -1 Atk Darmanitan Rock Slide vs 248 HP/252 Def Gyarados: 35.11% - 41.73%

Ah, bulky intimidate Gyarados does seem to do the trick (despite a tiny chance to 2hko after rocks+lefties), but as soon as you go for Moxie, Rock Slide is not at all a safe attack to switch in to - offensive gyarados is ohko'd after rocks

252 Atk Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs 248 HP/216 Def Jellicent: 51.12% - 60.3%

sadly, jellicent is not one of those bulky waters...under sun, it's 2hko'd after rocks...
 
Slowbro is actually an extremely efficient anti-sun pokemon that can spam twave to nullify any help Chlorophyll might be in addition to nailing things with Psychic or a boosted Flamethrower.

U-turn hurts but not that much tbh as even Scizor does approximately 70% with banded U-turn.
 
bluemon said:
i actually tan a similr offensive jirachi.

thunder
water pulse
energy ball
iron head.

haxxes everything
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Why run Iron head over Flash cannon? Your just taking away from Jirachi's great bulk. Also I would just use CM over Iron Head. Even in rain, without boost that thing will hit like a stick.
 
i wouldnt run iron head if it wasnt the sheer joy of parafuseflinching everything.

thunder 60 paralysis
water pulse 60 confuse
iron head 60 flinch. u know what that means!

paralysis: 75 percent of hitting
confusion: 50 percent of hitting
flinch: 40 percent of hitting

.75 x .5 x .4 = .15

the opponent has 15 percent chance of hitting jirachi. yea. the same percentage that fire blasts misses. (which is never for me)
 
Woodchuck said:
Amoonguss is pretty poor without Regenerator tbh, the only advantage he has over Celebi is Spore, and Celebi is still better in a defensive role in any case.

On another note, Jirachi is ridiculously good in rain as a SubCM user. Substitute / Calm Mind / Thunder / Water Pulse. What it doesn't beat outright it haxes to death, and it sets up on a ton of stuff. There is a very short list of things that counter it outright:

  • Gastrodon
  • Quagsire
And it's near impossible to check Jirachi without coming away crippled or greatly weakened by status or Thunder/Water Pulse spam.

Side note: Jirachi is made even better with Toxic Spikes support.
Click to expand...

And don't forget your good buddy spdef hippowdon, who comes in and roars you away after setting up rocks in your face, or just eq spams.
Hell;don't forget about breloom or virizion either.It'll be hard for you to break loom's subs with some bulk so it can subpunch, and virizon just cms in your face barring ridiculous hax and focus blasts you into oblivion.
Cm reuini and latias can make this into a massive stallfest as well;opposing subCM rachis also can. NP celebi can start setting up in your face and spamming earth power as well;shaymin can probably wall you to death, as can roserade.Hell, PARASECT can counter this.

I hate to keep editing this, but even more counters come to mind. a ninetales switchin can also do some major damage, with water pulse doing shit to ninetales with good special bulk and thunder being a 50% move.
 
Pwnemon said:
not even quaggy really can, simply because jirachi + 20% chance to hurt yourself after taking a water pulse = loss.
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You mean 40%. And that's not loss, quagsire either can't be set up on or absorbs both moves. At that point he can just spam EQ or curse in your face until you GTFO.
 
I really haven't been seeing Virizion at all lately. It's probably headed to UU at this rate (which I don't mind, since we're losing Celebi).
 
Yes, he is OU material, but so are things like Mew and Victini, in my opinion. They're just shoved out of the metagame in favor of better options.
 
I don't know why people are ditching Virizion in favour of Celebi. I really don't. It's kind of like why people didn't use Latias before either. May have been Garchomp's ban that made base 100s a bit more viable, but still.
 
shrang said:
I don't know why people are ditching Virizion in favour of Celebi. I really don't. It's kind of like why people didn't use Latias before either. May have been Garchomp's ban that made base 100s a bit more viable, but still.
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The problem with Virizion is that its lack of reliable recovery, vulnerability to sandstorm as well as status makes it too easy to wear down. Celebi is far sturdier and has natural cure to rid itself of burn status, making it the perfect Rotom-W and Jellicent switch in.

But yea, Virizion is still good (not being Pursuit weak is clutch).
 
Had anyone tried using physically defensive Virizion? With 108 HP / 252 Def EVs and a neutral nature it's not 2HKO'd by any of Adamant LO Excadrill's attacks, meaning it can switch in and OHKO with an unboosted Close Combat. Probably not worth it, but still :D
 
Yeah it's not worth it. You could use it on CM Virizion though in hopes that you'll never see a Skarmory or Sp. Def Jirachi.
 
GtM said:
Had anyone tried using physically defensive Virizion? With 108 HP / 252 Def EVs and a neutral nature it's not 2HKO'd by any of Adamant LO Excadrill's attacks, meaning it can switch in and OHKO with an unboosted Close Combat. Probably not worth it, but still :D
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Not that much. I'd say, if your team has a serious weakness to Excadrill, this can prove useful, but Conkeldurr can do this better, through Mach Punch.
 
JT Swift said:
o_O

You could always use him now. Effect Spore is good if you go physically defensive, and Lefties + Giga Drain is decent enough. You could use Synthesis.
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Amoongus without regenerator is not worth it...
A wall without solid recovery that will always go second is just very bad.
And even if you use synthesis 80% of the time it will only heal 25%,not nearly enough to cover your needs.
And if you want to give him reliable healing via sunlight,there are many more grass pokes that are more suited for abusing sunlight.

Conclusion:Use this poke only with regenerator!
 
Celebi's just a response to the resurgence of bulky Waters into the metagame. We all know that if your Ferro is down, Gastrodon is just the stupidest thing ever.

What I don't understand about Celebi right now is that while the most used set seems to be Nasty Plot, I've never seen one running Baton Pass. It's always NP, Giga Drain, HP Fire, Recover. Celebi's one of the hardest to shut down Baton Passers in the game and it has access to both Swords Dance & Nasty Plot yet no one's ever passing their boosts instead of having Celebi try to take down that Tyranitar by itself. I'll tell you right now that nothing strikes fear into the hearts of men quite like a Rotom-W or Starmie at +2 Sp.Atk or Volcarona for that matter since it's better at dealing with the Pokemon that scare out Celebi.
 
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