Soft resetting for Greevil in XD isn't that hard. I have a HP Grass 66 Zapdos from there.
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Let's ban Hidden Power
- Thread starter Footnote
- Start date
Soft resetting for Greevil in XD isn't that hard. I have a HP Grass 66 Zapdos from there.
Just pointing out that as well as Electric types, many Fire types (like Houndoom) really do like their HP's as well.
Nearly every Grass-type on Serebii's Pokémon of the Week has HP(Fire).
Also, I just found out on another thread that Hidden Power is absolutely rampant on PBR Wi-Fi. I guess I have nobody but GameFreak to blame. It seems like they're working so hard to achieve some sort of balance by giving more diverse movepools to Pokémon with lower stats, but they'll never be able to do it until they either nerf or remove Hidden Power from most Pokémon.
Don't you need to save after you beat Greevil...otherwise when you continue from the title screen it puts you back before him? <_<;
I believe that if you purposely lose to him, you can check the IVs, nature, Hidden Power, etc.
I am for banning HP because of a simply reason it give some pokemon attacking types that they normaly don't have access too. there is a reason why no firepokemon has a ice attack (and no ice has a fireattack). the two simply don't fit. bypassing such rules by using HP is "unnatural". (same for grasspokes with fire attacks etc.)
Hidden Power always felt cheep to me. Game breaking or not, I could never understand the point in having a Jolteon with HP Grass. It feels like bending the logic in favor of a possibly better battling experience.
My battling experience is based upon the validity of the moves and pokemon used, and not the versatility of the experience. I have a good time when everything clicks logically even if the grass really is greener on the other side.
This is also why I have disliked pokemon like Tyranitar and Salamence, who, although they are huge dragon-like ZOMG pokemon, still have typing and lore about them. Why can Tyranitar use Thunderbolt? How come Salamence can create an Earthquake? I understand that this is a moot point here, but it gives a little background to my thinking.
My battling experience is based upon the validity of the moves and pokemon used, and not the versatility of the experience. I have a good time when everything clicks logically even if the grass really is greener on the other side.
This is also why I have disliked pokemon like Tyranitar and Salamence, who, although they are huge dragon-like ZOMG pokemon, still have typing and lore about them. Why can Tyranitar use Thunderbolt? How come Salamence can create an Earthquake? I understand that this is a moot point here, but it gives a little background to my thinking.
I never even knew Hidden Power was even an issue. God this is stupid.
If you could never surprise your opponent with off-typed moves, Pokemon wouldn't be any fun; we'd just be switching into "not very effective" hits all the time and things would be slow.
As this discussion has progressed I've decided that Hidden Power does nothing but improve the metagame, and that the real complaint amongst most fans is that getting the right HP on legendaries is too costly; something I think we all can agree is a concern.
tl;dr: HP is OK but it sucks actually getting a good one on Raikou in-game.
Can you confirm/deny whether the below is true? If not, what method did you use to catch it? Even more specifically, how did you check the Hidden Power type if the game saves after the battle concludes? I doubt its stats @ level 50 can give exact IVs and I don't think Shadow Pokemon accept RCs.
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but getting Hidden Power on Legendaries certainly isn't a complaint for me, since I never use Hidden Power or Legendaries.
ANinyMouse, I agree that it's fun to surprise your opponents, but is anyone really surprised by Hidden Power anymore? There are other ways to use unusual, non-direct-damage moves for cool surprises. But why would anybody try to use their moveslots creatively when they can just slap Hidden Power on there for instant type-coverage? If you're sick of switch-heavy games, use moves that discourage switching. Now that there are two more kinds of Spikes and Pursuit is physical, there are real, practical ways to do this.
Revamparts, I agree with you 100% on the logic-bending complaint. It wasn't one of the points I brought up since it's not a real argument-winner, but I'm with you.
You're unlikely to find a lot of opponents if you clause Hidden Power and/or Legendaries.
I can actually sympathize will this to an extent. I play (or used to play) a lot of UU, but it's difficult to find opponents on a regular basis. Technically, if you clause Hidden Power you're playing in your own metagame outside of the normal OU environment. You're purposely putting yourself on the fringes of competitive battling.
I can actually sympathize will this to an extent. I play (or used to play) a lot of UU, but it's difficult to find opponents on a regular basis. Technically, if you clause Hidden Power you're playing in your own metagame outside of the normal OU environment. You're purposely putting yourself on the fringes of competitive battling.
You're right. But, it looks like there are several others here who would be willing to play without Hidden Power, and since there are no random battles over Wi-Fi with DP, and since you can only have 32 Friend Codes at a time anyway, it might not be so bad.
Once DP is released, I'll put a call out for all those who want to try playing with these rules. Which metagame is better can be put to the test, instead of us just debating what may or may not be the case. Then, everybody can decide for themselves.
As far as metagame analysis goes, these are the basic effects of an HP less metagame:
Ground types: +++.
No random HP Grass/Ice on everything means these guys (esp. the Rock/Ground persuasion) can switch in on Fire or Electric types that used to own them with HP with near impunity. Oh yeah, and Swampert rejoices.
Dragon types: +++
No random HP Ice = Massive win for Dragons. Hiya Chompy!
Dark types: +
With the removal of HP Fite on some Psychics and Gengar, the psychics are forced to use the unreliable Focus Blast to try and deal with Darks.
Fire types: -
Now that they almost all have Solarbeam, losing HP Grass isn't that big a deal. Fire types are hated for their weaknesses anyway and thier best use is beating the shnitzel out of something with STAB fire moves. The less diverse ones will just put WoW in its place, I imagine, if they even used it in the first place.
Ghost types: -
Loss of HP Ice isn't real good for Ghosts, but like fire types, just replace with WoW and you can screw over what you'd use HP Ice on with similar efficacy. Or DBond, that's always fun.
Electric types: --
Losing HP rips most electric pokemon of their diversity and attack potential, although Zapdos, Raikou, Raichu, and Electivire have enough diversity not to care.
Grass types: --
Losing HP Fire with Sunny Day is a bummer, but if anything it probably just means Chlorophyll uses will have Synthesis/Moonlight/Morning Sun in its place to increase durability.
The rest don't really care that much.
Well, that's what would happen initially, but trust me when I say that there'd be ripple effects. To use your example, Ground-types gain a huge initial advantage once every Tom, Dick, and Harry Pokémon can't use HP Grass and Ice. As you say, Swampert rejoices. But, what comes in to fill the void? Real Grass-types. They may have a lot of weaknesses, but they have a lot of recovery methods, too. And they can KO Swampert in a hit. One of Grass-type Pokémon's major strengths is the ability to use Grass-type moves. Since everyone can do it with Hidden Power, it's no wonder you don't see any in your "metagame". As for switching in on Fire-types, hopefully that'll net Ground-types a Burn from Will-O-Wisp.
Speaking of Grass-types, they'd also be glad to be rid of HP Ice.
As for Electric-types, I think DP's gone a long way toward diversifying their movepools.
Examples:
Raichu gets Grass Knot
Magnezone gets Flash Cannon (and higher stats than Magneton)
Jolteon gets special Shadow Ball
Ampharos gets Singal Beam and Power Gem
Manectric gets Flamethrower, Fire Blast and Overheat
Electivire gets everything under the sun
And that's just moves that deal damage!
And enough things learn Ice Beam that I never considered Dragon-types to be that big of a threat. Just have a couple of Ice Beams and Avalanches on your team if you're worried about it. I always do.
Speaking of Grass-types, they'd also be glad to be rid of HP Ice.
As for Electric-types, I think DP's gone a long way toward diversifying their movepools.
Examples:
Raichu gets Grass Knot
Magnezone gets Flash Cannon (and higher stats than Magneton)
Jolteon gets special Shadow Ball
Ampharos gets Singal Beam and Power Gem
Manectric gets Flamethrower, Fire Blast and Overheat
Electivire gets everything under the sun
And that's just moves that deal damage!
And enough things learn Ice Beam that I never considered Dragon-types to be that big of a threat. Just have a couple of Ice Beams and Avalanches on your team if you're worried about it. I always do.
Believe it or not, but banning hidden power would completely change the metagame. I think this whole discussion is pointless. You guys might think that say HP on jolteon is cheap because it gives it the ability to sort of boltbeam. But would you guys be complaining if it got ice beam??? Hidden power doesn't necessarily give pokemon advantages when you guys say they "shouldn't." Being able to cover more types and counter their counters make pokemon better. Using Hidden power to counter the metagame is something brilliant and should not be angered towards.
Hidden power allows the metagame to change as different people start using HP on different pokes. (such as HP grass on boah, etc) This can surprise t-tars counter, swampert not be able to do what he wants to do and therefore countering the counter. I'm sure this may seem cheap to you guys. But then Boah has to lose tbolt so he isn't really doing much to skarm, or he loses crunch/dark pulse so he has trouble with ghost types where t-tar should not have any trouble whatsoever. Don't be mad if people think outside the box and adapt their pokemon to the metagame.
Hidden power allows the metagame to change as different people start using HP on different pokes. (such as HP grass on boah, etc) This can surprise t-tars counter, swampert not be able to do what he wants to do and therefore countering the counter. I'm sure this may seem cheap to you guys. But then Boah has to lose tbolt so he isn't really doing much to skarm, or he loses crunch/dark pulse so he has trouble with ghost types where t-tar should not have any trouble whatsoever. Don't be mad if people think outside the box and adapt their pokemon to the metagame.
I don't think anyone's angry. It's just a disagreement about what would make the game more interesting and what would make it less interesting. I believe that because of Hidden Power, a large number of Pokémon aren't viable in the metagame. Grass-types are the example I gave above. If you don't need Grass-types for powerful Grass-type moves, why bother with them?
Does anybody disagree that having more viable Pokémon and more viable moves make the game more interesting? And who is surprised by Hidden Power anymore? It's the norm, not an exception. What would be surprising is if people thought beyond the whole type-attack-counters-type-Pokémon and started using interesting support moves.
SePh, isn't Hidden Power part of the metagame? How is it used to counter the metagame, exactly? This is a zero-sum game. If Hidden Power "makes a Pokémon better", then it makes others that don't need it (because of a diverse movepool) worse. The number of Pokémon that lose in this equation is far, far higher than the number that win.
This is an oversimplification, but think of it this way. Let's play a special game of Rock/Paper/Scissors. In this version, Scissors have a Rock-smashing attachment, so now Scissors beat Rock and Paper. Gee, 2/3 of my options became obsolete. This game just got a lot less fun.
In case I haven't made it clear, I don't think Hidden Power is "cheap", and I'm not on a moral crusade. No ethics are involved here. Take it from me, someone who's experienced it: a metagame without Hidden Power has a lot more variety than a metagame with it.
Does anybody disagree that having more viable Pokémon and more viable moves make the game more interesting? And who is surprised by Hidden Power anymore? It's the norm, not an exception. What would be surprising is if people thought beyond the whole type-attack-counters-type-Pokémon and started using interesting support moves.
SePh, isn't Hidden Power part of the metagame? How is it used to counter the metagame, exactly? This is a zero-sum game. If Hidden Power "makes a Pokémon better", then it makes others that don't need it (because of a diverse movepool) worse. The number of Pokémon that lose in this equation is far, far higher than the number that win.
This is an oversimplification, but think of it this way. Let's play a special game of Rock/Paper/Scissors. In this version, Scissors have a Rock-smashing attachment, so now Scissors beat Rock and Paper. Gee, 2/3 of my options became obsolete. This game just got a lot less fun.
In case I haven't made it clear, I don't think Hidden Power is "cheap", and I'm not on a moral crusade. No ethics are involved here. Take it from me, someone who's experienced it: a metagame without Hidden Power has a lot more variety than a metagame with it.
I think Footnote makes excellent points; hidden power actually ends up creating a less diverse metagame. Something resists your main type? No need to rely on whatever REAL attack moves or cool support moves the poke has access to, just stick HP(Whatever) on it.
It also really doesn't hurt electrics THAT much (It would help grass types, by the way). Raichu has Scheme + Grass Knot, Electivire has his 13/17. It would only loosens Raikou/Zapdos's dominence (i hate legendaries personally), but even those two wouldn't be completely screwed without it; they still have Baton Pass and such.
At the very least, it should be clausable, but i think the clause should be "Allow Hidden Power" rather than "Ban Hidden Power."
It also really doesn't hurt electrics THAT much (It would help grass types, by the way). Raichu has Scheme + Grass Knot, Electivire has his 13/17. It would only loosens Raikou/Zapdos's dominence (i hate legendaries personally), but even those two wouldn't be completely screwed without it; they still have Baton Pass and such.
At the very least, it should be clausable, but i think the clause should be "Allow Hidden Power" rather than "Ban Hidden Power."
It's really kind of unneeded, since it's clearly possible to breed for a Hidden Power if you care that much about it, and since it was put in the game, it might as well be used. Clausing things really has no purpose unless it was purely broken, such as sleep clause preventing Jumpluff from destroying teams, but as Hidden Power can only reach 70 power it's not that broken as to remove it. If it could reach 100 power or something, that would be a different story.
I've heard it said that 70 base power is not that great many times during this thread. This argument really doesn't hold water.
First of all, if it weren't that great, it wouldn't be everywhere. The simple fact that it's the single most-used move should be an indicator that it's plenty powerful.
Why is this? 70 doesn't seem that high. But keep in mind that when you're putting Hidden Power on a Pokémon, you're covering bases that you otherwise wouldn't be able to. So really, you only ever use it when it's super-effective. With Hidden Power, your ability to hit certain Pokémon often goes from little or none (Electric vs. Ground) to a lot (Grass vs. Ground).
If it's not that powerful, why are you using it?
Hidden Power doesn't destroy the game as much as the lack of a Sleep Clause (with the aforementioned Jumpluff), but it does cripple it by giving a big advantage to Pokémon that benefit the most from it. Instead of a pool of hundreds of fully-evolved Pokémon to choose from, you've got about 50.
First of all, if it weren't that great, it wouldn't be everywhere. The simple fact that it's the single most-used move should be an indicator that it's plenty powerful.
Why is this? 70 doesn't seem that high. But keep in mind that when you're putting Hidden Power on a Pokémon, you're covering bases that you otherwise wouldn't be able to. So really, you only ever use it when it's super-effective. With Hidden Power, your ability to hit certain Pokémon often goes from little or none (Electric vs. Ground) to a lot (Grass vs. Ground).
If it's not that powerful, why are you using it?
Hidden Power doesn't destroy the game as much as the lack of a Sleep Clause (with the aforementioned Jumpluff), but it does cripple it by giving a big advantage to Pokémon that benefit the most from it. Instead of a pool of hundreds of fully-evolved Pokémon to choose from, you've got about 50.
If I was making these games, I'd make Hidden Power always 60-70 base power, with the type determined by nature. And the "best" natures (adamant, modest, jolly, timid, etc.) would give the worst types.
Grass types would not like HP Ice's removal as much as Dragons do. Most Grassers (bar Torterra/Tropius/Jumpluff) don't have 4x weaks to anything as ubiquitous as HP Ice. Expect to see Salamence, Flygon, and Garchomp whored A LOT more.
Grass types also have the problem that the only thing they counter well ARE Ground types (and a few Rocks here or there). Waters just go lol IBeam nob. There are also a bajillion things that 4x resist Grass (Skarm, any Bug/Poison, any Bug/Flying, Crobat, Scizor/Forry, all Grass/Poisons, Tropius/Jumpluff, Charizard/Moltres, Heatran, and Dragon/Flying) that just switch in as Swampert switches out to say "LOL no nob." Dragons have no such problem and are a bitch to switch into since they have more attacks than Grass Rope and Sludge Bomb. Grass types certainly weren't helped by HP Ice being everywhere, but Dragons like the boon more and Grass types suffer a lot by losing THEIR HP Ice.
Can't really argue with the ubiquitousness of Ice Beam, but Jolteon, Ampharos, and Magnezone are still basically a free switchin for Garchomp.
Meaning Hp would be a compromise between strength and coverage somewhat, I can see where your coming from but it wouldnt really work.
Discussion about a move in a metagame that hasn't really been established past what 20 intial OU pokemon is kinda stupid imo. For all you know by the time the metagame settles down jolteon won't even be OU with or without Hidden power.
Maybe the topic should be closed as its clear no one is a going to agree and at this point people are just repeating the same points over and over.
Wait till the metagame has been properly established then take a poll if its that game breaking imo.
Maybe the topic should be closed as its clear no one is a going to agree and at this point people are just repeating the same points over and over.
Wait till the metagame has been properly established then take a poll if its that game breaking imo.
As far as Grass-types go, I won't argue that they have (on average) poor type coverage. But, I think you're underestimating the versatility of most Grass-type Pokémon. They learn all sorts of status- and other support moves. And most Grass-types have another type that increases their usefulness. If Hidden Power were gone, you may not use a Bellossom, but you might use a Breloom, Exeggutor, Sceptile or Roserade more often.
We have nothing to argue about as far as Salamence and Garchomp loving the lack of Hidden Power. As far as stats are concerned, they're legendary Pokémon, which means I generally don't use them. Flygon's not as durable, but I haven't seen anybody talking about using one recently, so if Hidden Power was gone, it might get more play.
Most Grass types (Parasect, Vileplume, Bellossom, Meganium, Jumpluff, Sunflora, Ludicolo, Shiftry, Cacturne, Tropius, Cherrim) only really shine in double battles. But with Hidden Power Ice everywhere, you might as well not use them there, either. Again, if all Pokémon can have is direct-damage attacks, most Grass-types are worthless. Once you start factoring in support moves, that changes.
What wouldn't work, exactly? If you're talking about a metagame without Hidden Power, I already know that works. I've experienced it. It's not like the whole game would fall apart if Hidden Power were removed.
I'm perfectly willing to let the topic die if that's the consensus, but as long as people keep posting, it's clear that they still want to talk about it. I don't think everybody needs to agree on this, either. But this thread is helping me (and others, I'm sure) to get a feel for who is for clausing Hidden Power and who is against it, which could be useful for Friend Codes, etc.