np: UU Suspect Test Round 2 - Cold As Ice

[Banedon]

If the rain team somehow knows Abomasnow is Scarfed then it's not a difficult matter to switch out and wear it down. Without Leftovers, being weak to SR and the fact that every rain sweeper can slam Abomasnow hard (Kingdra can Draco Meteor, Omastar can Ice Beam / HP Rock, Ludicolo can Focus Punch, Kabutops can Stone Edge ...) Abomasnow can't really come in except after a KO. Yes Hitmontop and Donphan can spin, but the price is that rain gets to set up. Depending on which supporter rain is using it could mean not just rain going up, it might also mean screens, Memento, etc. So although hail is a tough barrier to a rain sweep, I'm not convinced rain is at a disadvantage.

Also Chansey is easily 2HKOed by Gorebyss's +2 Aqua Tail in the rain, while ChestoRest Kingdra can Dragon Dance on it without fear. Team preview does a whole lot - if you see Chansey on the other team, then you don't initiate a sweep with a sweeper like Ludicolo.

Nonetheless I admit I am theorycrafting. Ultimately the only real way to tell for sure is to play rain myself or play against it, and since nobody is playing rain right now I'll have to play rain myself. Let's see what happens ...

 

[Banedon]

Ok having played several games of rain I must say Chansey is quite weak against rain. It is literally the biggest setup bait ever. In my games against it I sent in Gorebyss as my sweeper of choice. If it switches in, I Shell Smash twice and Baton Pass my boosts to Kingdra. If it doesn't switch in, I ravage his team. The only real worry then is that Kingdra takes hazard + Seismic Toss damage as it switches in, falling into revenge-killing range with priority, when Chansey can wall the rest of the team.

The biggest threat to my team so far has been Celebi, who's just too damn bulky (and verrsatile) for his own good. STAB Leaf Storm from base 100 SpA hits all the rain sweepers hard, even those that aren't weak to it. I wonder what the best way around it is ... ideas anyone? So far I've yet to face a Hail team, although I've got Focus Punch on Ludicolo and Heat Wave on Zapdos (long live Fire moves on rain teams!) to kill Abomasnow with.

My team's very experimental still - and I started with six random rain Pokemon - but it doesn't feel like it has many weaknesses so far, yet I've won most of my games (some 80% at least) so I'll say rain is certainly viable.

 

[Mishra]

Annnnnd how about that hail you were talking about before?

Also, can't most of the best rain sweepers run ice beam? We would also need to know your team looks like before we could actually give you advice...

 

[Banedon]

Played Focus just now; he was running hail. I lost. Was a tough game, I played like an idiot and didn't block his Cryogonal's Rapid Spin, losing my 2 layers of Toxic Spikes, and was completely crushed afterwards. My anti-hail checks did OK. The Focus Punching Ludicolo seemed to throw Focus off-guard, although Zapdos got destroyed by Blizzard (why didn't I think of that??).

Rain sweepers CAN run Ice Beam, but without STAB and without the boost from rain it's hard to OHKO Celebi. I've also found another major weakness with rain teams, and that's opposing Kingdra. You're pretty much forced into a speedtie. Kingdra is faster than all the other rain sweepers (other than Luvdisc?), and with LO Draco Meteor for example it can also KO them all. I don't like it. It's a problem with rain that has no solution I guess ...

Team I'm using right now:

Mismagius @ Taunt, Memento, Rain Dance, Shadow Ball
Qwilfish @ Intimidate, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Waterfall, Rain Dance
Zapdos @ Thunder, Rain Dance, Roost, Heat Wave
Kingdra @ Lum Berry, Dragon Dance, Substitute, Waterfall, Outrage
Gorebyss @ White Herb, Surf, HP Electric, Baton Pass, Shell Smash
Ludicolo @ Life Orb, Hydro Pump, Giga Drain, Ice Beam, Focus Punch

I can feel flaws with it everywhere. So and so move I hardly use, so and so Pokemon might be better off with some other, etc. It's a solid enough team, but still quite flawed. It'll take some time to fix though, so yeah.

 

[Pocket]

Yea, can't wait for Celebi (and Mamoswine) to gtfo of UU :0

 

[Mishra]

Yea, can't wait for Celebi (and Mamoswine) to gtfo of UU :0

I still want chansey the fuck out before either of those two.

Celebi isn't that good. Sure, he boasts some very useful resists, but have a good amount of weaknesses to exploit as well. And mamoswine misses that oh so useful 100 base speed mark that is incredibly relevant in this gen's UU. He also has one of the worse defensive typings in the game.

@Banedon: I don't know who Focus is, but if he was using Cygonal, I really want to kknow what both teams are because his doesn't sound like an ideal hail team. Why run a spinner that shares a hail team's weakness?

Edit:

Mismagius @ Taunt, Memento, Rain Dance, Shadow Ball

Interesting, but a rain dancer with memento is definitly good for gorby. I assume the held item is either focus sash or damp stone?

Qwilfish @ Intimidate, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, Waterfall, Rain Dance

That seems fine.

Zapdos @ Thunder, Rain Dance, Roost, Heat Wave

Heat wave on a rd team? I almost think depending on the evs, zappy is better off with either toxic, substitue, or HP Ice. But heat wave is good coverage...

Kingdra @ Lum Berry, Dragon Dance, Substitute, Waterfall, Outrage

I personally prefer chesto rest, but this also seems fine.

Gorebyss @ White Herb, Surf, HP Electric, Baton Pass, Shell Smash

HP electric is an interesting choice for a coverage move. I assume there was a poke or two you had in mind for this?

Ludicolo @ Life Orb, Hydro Pump, Giga Drain, Ice Beam, Focus Punch

I am sure the focus punch could keep them guessing, but I always have gotten burned running FP without sub.

 

[Pocket]

I know, Mishra - I just want the obviously OU Pokemon out of the tier so I'll be really playing "pure" UU with the extraneous threats out of the way, lol. Gastrodon has to leave, too (pretty sure it's OU by now).

Focus Punch is good on Ludicolo, but I'm pretty sure Leech Seed can accomplish the same thing without risking too much :d

EDIT: err, maybe not, with Toxic or T-Wave crippling Ludicolo :x

 

[Banedon]

Focus is currently #13 on the ladder, so don't belittle him.

As for rain, the individual sets may be fine but the sum product may not be - therein the problem lies. HP Electric is obviously for Empoleon, who the other sweepers have some trouble with. Leech Seed is nice and all but it doesn't hit Abomasnow, which is a problem against hail.

And yeah, I'd rather all the already-OU Pokemon out of UU so I won't have to consider them when I make teams. Celebi, Mamoswine etc are important Pokemon in UU, so their removal will definitely shift the metagame. We just have to see what happens afterwards.

 

[fatty]

a lot of good hail teams run cryogonal. it gets lefties recovery in hail, has a mammoth spd to abuse, reliable recovery, levitate, and good STAB, all in addition to rapid spin, making it an ideal pick for a hail team's spinner.

on the topic of celebi, how does it's weaknesses make it "not very good" lol. it has pretty good speed, great overall bulky, fairly good offensive typing for uu, and the reliable recovery + natural cure that keeps it going throughout a match. putting that all together, imo, it's one of the hardest mons to account for in uu right now. it can run a myriad of sets, and if you predict what one it is wrong, there can be devastating consequences due to the power it can wield after using np / sd.

mamoswine doesn't need a good defensive typing because it's offensive typing and 130 base atk does all the work for it. furthermore, it doesn't even really have the defensive stats to abuse a good typing either, although that hp stat comes in handy a lot. anyways, its main STABs (eq + icicle crash) already have tremendous coverage and when you add STAB priority and another coverage move in se, simply put, you have an offensive monster. currently, all of those traits culminate into mamo being one of the best spike abusers in a tier full of reliable spikers.

 

[Mishra]

a lot of good hail teams run cryogonal. it gets lefties recovery in hail, has a mammoth spd to abuse, reliable recovery, levitate, and good STAB, all in addition to rapid spin, making it an ideal pick for a hail team's spinner.

In addition to all that, it can't take a physical hit to save its life and its move pool is horrendous. I also have never been a big fan spinners who themselves are SR weak. The only two things it has going for it is a reliable recover and a great sp.d, t

on the topic of celebi, how does it's weaknesses make it "not very good" lol. it has pretty good speed, great overall bulky, fairly good offensive typing for uu, and the reliable recovery + natural cure that keeps it going throughout a match. putting that all together, imo, it's one of the hardest mons to account for in uu right now. it can run a myriad of sets, and if you predict what one it is wrong, there can be devastating consequences due to the power it can wield after using np / sd.

Grass is a horrible offensive typing, and my point was that while it boasts some useful resists, it is still easy to get an SE hit if you need to. And as far as guessing the set, that could be true for any number of pokes, and mew is much harder to predict. I haven't even run into the standard lead that often. Most celebi versions I see also only run 2 attacking moves with the other 2 being some combination of boost move/leech seed/substitute.

mamoswine doesn't need a good defensive typing because it's offensive typing and 130 base atk does all the work for it. furthermore, it doesn't even really have the defensive stats to abuse a good typing either, although that hp stat comes in handy a lot. anyways, its main STABs (eq + icicle crash) already have tremendous coverage and when you add STAB priority and another coverage move in se, simply put, you have an offensive monster. currently, all of those traits culminate into mamo being one of the best spike abusers in a tier full of reliable spikers.

130 atk is great, don't get me wrong. It sure as hell isn't switching into anything, and the lifeorb makes it that mamoswine won't be doing that much. The base 80 makes it very easy to kill any nonscarf varients, but then giving up the orb and coverage probably hurts it more then the surprise speed boost. It also lacks a decent boosting move.

Also, what offensive pokemon doesn't want some spike support?

 

[casey90]

I wouldn't knock celebi so hastily mishra, I used offensive celebi with Nasty Plot, Recover, Giga Drain, and Psychic, it worked brilliantly. The biggest advantage it had was natural cure, something mew wishes it could boast.

 

[TaylorYah]

I wouldn't knock celebi so hastily mishra, I used offensive celebi with Nasty Plot, Recover, Giga Drain, and Psychic, it worked brilliantly. The biggest advantage it had was natural cure, something mew wishes it could boast.

I agree with this. If you don't have a pokemon that is faster, an anti Meta or a counter Celebi, one or two NP with its natural bulk, great ability, recovery, and Decent move coverage, will pretty much kick ass.

 

[Moo]

Specs Yanmega / Moltres is ridiculous if you don't have chansey :<
only thing worse is both of em T.T

 

[Avira]

You ran into Jubilee using them? God, those things hit hard. Need something really bulky like Chansey or Snorlax to deal with them.

 

[Moo]

Mhm, if Mienshao dropped down to UU, or if Primeape had Knock Off, that'd be annoying, because they'd all have U-turn, and the two flyers would cause havoc with chansey out of the way

Edit: CB Primeape OHKOs, I must try!

 

[Mishra]

I agree with this. If you don't have a pokemon that is faster, an anti Meta or a counter Celebi, one or two NP with its natural bulk, great ability, recovery, and Decent move coverage, will pretty much kick its ass.

That is not that difficult. The 100 base tier is not as good as it was last gen, as there are muiltiple pokemon who outspeed it, but threaten out.

Also, the set he listed doesn't need recover and giga drain. He should either drop drain or recover for a better coverage move like hp fire/ice or earth power.

 

[Maxb]

That is not that difficult. The 100 base tier is not as good as it was last gen, as there are muiltiple pokemon who outspeed it, but threaten out.

Also, the set he listed doesn't need recover and giga drain. He should either drop drain or recover for a better coverage move like hp fire/ice or earth power.

NP Celebi performs better in OU than UU I'd say, and Celebi most likely won't be UU for long looking at the unofficial August stats (it's 19 in usage).

 

[Mishra]

Irrelevant. Ice Beam/Blizzard, Rapid Spin, Recover, random support move. Everything it needs is there.

Ghosts and steels say hi.

Not a problem unless you plan on letting your opponent set up SR more than once. In that case you deserve to lose.

Withdraw poke, Go Dusclops! Unlike hitmontop or donphan, this guy has no way of spinning through ghosts. Part of the reason don and mon are the top2 of UU stats.

And great STAB and Rapid Spin and ice resist+ground/spikes/TS immunity and Recover.

If it didn't have rapid spin, we wouldn't be having this argument so I didn't include it. There are plenty of pokes with a better typing to abuse hail, and spike(ts) immunity? Who cares? "if an opponent can set up 1 (SR) layer of hazards more then once, you deserve to lose".

NP Celebi performs better in OU than UU I'd say, and Celebi most likely won't be UU for long looking at the unofficial August stats (it's 19 in usage).

And that's my problem with the system. Celebi is not warping UU to the slightest, but to less controversial issue: What about Gastradon? It could be OU very soon if thunderous and drizzle don't gtfo (not that I think drizzle would, too many people apparently love weather wars), but I don't think anyone here would argue Gastradon is too good for UU.

And that's not even including things that might drop that shakes this meta up. Although if you guys won't ban chansey, I definitely would not mind having machamp in UU.

 

[WinstonShnozwick]

Cryo is by no means an offensive or defensive pokemon to use. He is an excellent support pokemon for hail teams however. From my experience, he's been nothing but useful. If you want to go for a bit of bite, you can run blizzard so he isnt taunt bait. Out of rapid spin, he is an excellent dual screener, being able to take special hits well and having quite decent speed. Reflect - Light screen - Rapid spin - Dead and you can switch to a sweeper of choice and have 5 turns (light clay) to wreck shit. I've swept like crazy by setting teammates up with him before. Obviously rapid spin is why he's used, but out of rapid spin, he has options to furthur support. And recover is awful on him, he is far too frail to take repeated hits, he's meant to die eventually and not win a game singlehandedly.

 

[Furosuto]

Now, this may be risky, but it could be a very good mon in UU. Might even be able to handle chansey well, if aloud to set up. Hydration lapras. I just made a big rant about it in the OU np forum, but in UU it might fare better. Sure, with your only option being rain dance, and the possibiility of being forced to switch out isn't fun, but if you give it the chance, it might get a chance to do a decent late game clean up. Waterfall is a nasty little attack, combine with rest for recovery, hydration for status, toxic for status, and curse to set up with, the only thing that I see standing in this things way is slowbro and weezing. Please forgive my ignorance with the UU metagame because I just got into it today.

 

[Gerard]

^
Actually no-flametrower slowbro will probably have a very hard time doing anything to lapras, but the fact that you have to set up rain and then set up on 6 turns makes it too risky considering you already have enough raw power (kingdra, ludi, kabutops, Gorebyss, Huntail, Omastar, etc...), it's an interesting option, but a little outclassed

 

[Furosuto]

How's linoone, heracross, and crobat in this UU metagame? They're my fav mons and I want to see how tough they are before going out there to ladder up. I know heracross was an anticipated threat in gen4, but how do they fit in to this metagame?

 

[Mishra]

How's linoone, heracross, and crobat in this UU metagame? They're my fav mons and I want to see how tough they are before going out there to ladder up. I know heracross was an anticipated threat in gen4, but how do they fit in to this metagame?

The latter two are both decent. Crobat is a really great bulky lead, having one of (if not) the fastest taunts in the game with a decent defensive typing and bulk. Heracross is also decent, but he has to run scarf to be good. A sub and sd/bulk up set may catch someone off guard, but once you realize base 85 speed isn't that fast anymore, its pretty easy to handle.

Linoone hasn't seen much play. I don't know why, perhaps too fragile, but I don't personally like it.

 

[Jaetheho]

heracross does NOT need scarf.
band is also phenomenal.

 

[Forsety]

Band Heracross doesn't work that well, just run Burn Orb or LOcross if you're gonna do that, Scarfcross still has use as a revenge killer but CBcross just gets walled.

Now, this may be risky, but it could be a very good mon in UU. Might even be able to handle chansey well, if aloud to set up. Hydration lapras. I just made a big rant about it in the OU np forum, but in UU it might fare better. Sure, with your only option being rain dance, and the possibiility of being forced to switch out isn't fun, but if you give it the chance, it might get a chance to do a decent late game clean up. Waterfall is a nasty little attack, combine with rest for recovery, hydration for status, toxic for status, and curse to set up with, the only thing that I see standing in this things way is slowbro and weezing. Please forgive my ignorance with the UU metagame because I just got into it today.

In theory it'd work but but in practice a few problems come into the picture.

-Its walled by Abomasnow who can also kill off your rain.
-Baton Pass teams will shit all over it and they are still one of the most dominating setups when properly done.
-Plain old defensive balanced teams are a nightmare to deal with in UU thanks to the prevalence of hazards.

How's linoone, heracross, and crobat in this UU metagame? They're my fav mons and I want to see how tough they are before going out there to ladder up. I know heracross was an anticipated threat in gen4, but how do they fit in to this metagame?

Linoone is the same as ever, pretty useless but GG if you pull off Belly Drum though thats easier said than done. Heracross is a mixed bag, he actually gets kinda walled without some kind of damage boosting item however is abit easy to kill when he does. Crobat however imo is excellent in UU as a semi-stallbreaker and defensive mon at the same time running Taunt/Roost/BraveBird/filler.