I think people want to ban things that makes them a bit scary instead of dealing with them.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
- Status
I think people want to ban things that makes them a bit scary instead of dealing with them.
I hear Espeon is sort of ruining Baton Passing because of its ability to reflect the likes of Taunt, phazing, Haze, status etc, which are the main problems baton passing faces these days. Aside from that, it sounds like cheese and wine to me.
I could imagine that, even that, Baton pass chains are difficult to suceed due to huge offensiveness of most teams.
There needs to be a rule against posting without Reqs.
The last person to post nominated about half of OU. Conkeldor, Jirachi, SkarmBliss ffs.
Ridiculous
The last person to post nominated about half of OU. Conkeldor, Jirachi, SkarmBliss ffs.
Ridiculous
I have a question, what does reg mean?
Also, Does anyone know what were the exact reasons to send Blaziken to Uber? I don't know all of them.
Also, Does anyone know what were the exact reasons to send Blaziken to Uber? I don't know all of them.
Speed Boost and Swords Dance mostly making it too hard to counter, with Drought making things worse.
...
Voters seem to have become idiots as of the latest posts, with no sign of stopping.
Now, with the mentioning of Smogon counicil and such, I got an idea.
How about we keep the voting system, but a certain amount of users who are recognized in making fair votes in accordance to the metagame (who are voted for with a good reason) will flush out the votes that plainly scream "Ban everything listed here cause I can't handle it" from the ones that actually makes sense.
This may be tweaked here and there, but it's a idea.
j/s.
Voters seem to have become idiots as of the latest posts, with no sign of stopping.
Now, with the mentioning of Smogon counicil and such, I got an idea.
How about we keep the voting system, but a certain amount of users who are recognized in making fair votes in accordance to the metagame (who are voted for with a good reason) will flush out the votes that plainly scream "Ban everything listed here cause I can't handle it" from the ones that actually makes sense.
This may be tweaked here and there, but it's a idea.
j/s.
It doesn't matter if we get 100 nominations for Zubat, competent players at the top will never ban it, in the end that is all that matters. And besides, you need an open system so people that don't have enough time, patence, or skill to get regs, can still get a say, if they are reasonable they will be heard, if not let them look like the fool they are. It does no one harm, in fact some sort of silly system would cause more problems then what, reading a few noob joke proposals, get over it.
Actually I checked out his previous teams. He basically just banned everything his team had trouble with.
Seriously tho while reading some of the noms are always good for a laugh its kinda depressing when you see just how retarded some people are. Just look at someone who got reqs, and is therefore supposed to have a well respected view on the metagame, and then votes to ban Lucario. Don't know why people are nomming Deoxys N to be unbanned tho, especially when Deoxys S is being nommed so much. Clearly, reqs need to be even higher if people act stupid with there ability to nom and vote on things
EDIT at below
Performance in Ubers does not equal to Performance in OU. I don't care if some uber has low usage in Ubers, its not an excuse to bring something down to OU because of it.
Maybe because Normal Deoxys has very low usage in Ubers I guess due to being outclassed by all of its other forms in someway, but aside from that I have no idea.
If by some travesty Deoxys-S was banned and Deoxys-N was OU again, I wonder if it will simply replace Deoxys-S's role of setting up and screw sweeping. That would be hilarious.
Nah
Deoxys-S can actually live a hit without Focus Sash; and you don't have to max speed in order to outspeed threats such as Rotom-W with Deoxys-S.
Either way...if we banned Deoxys-S and allowed Deoxys-N back into OU...we really need to clean up our suspect test process.
Here's another one: someone who got 1450+ points(ridiculously high) is voting to ban Whimsicott.
Reason: IT BEATS BATON PASS TOO EASILY! PRIORITY ENCORE NEEDS TO GO!
uh. =.= if Whimsicott should be banned for beating BP too easily, ban Murkrow as well guys, it pretty much 100% wins against BP...
I'm actually quite disappointed, too. :/
It just seems like people want to ban things they don't want to deal with anymore. I saw a Rotom-W nom which took me by surprise considering it's nowhere near broken with Volt Switch (it's not that hard to predict and switch to a Ground -.-), but still got nominated. Excadrill, Dragonite, and Politoed are the most reasonable suspects for now. Excadrill has that broken flinch chance that's higher than Garchomp's Sand Veil miss %. Tbh, it's superior in every way in the Sand outside of the Dragon STAB and great bulk (110 base hp is still good with steel). Seriously, I can't count the number of games I've won that I didn't deserve to win and lost when I did deserve the wn to Excadrill because of a Rock Slide flinch. >.>
Dragonite has that versatility and Multiscale. I'd actually say it's better now than salamence was last gen with the addition of Hurricane and the ability to go mixed without drawbacks. The original mixed set still hits really hard too and doesn't rely on weather. Actually, it forces the opponent into a hard pressed situation early in the match if your prediction is in top shape because they can't outright OHKO you with weak HP ices and Ice beams should they predict it is your lead.
Politoed is....ugh...it's the reason Thundurus can use Thunder and 2KO Jirachi. It makes Starmie almost uncounterable assuming it uses Psyshock for Blissey (let's be honest, Ferrothorn is the only safe switchin and it's 2KOed after Spikes damage). If I could choose between Excadrill, Dragonite, and Politoed to go I'd definitely kick Politoed out first. Also, Politoed isn't the only thing checking Sandstorm teams...you have Celebi, Virizion, Gliscor, Terrakion, OTR Reuniclus, etc. I've even found Abomasnow effective against SS teams simply because of its grass typing and Snow Warning. Open your eyes people. O_O
Edit: TM13IceBeam, I'm sure he was joking. Stunt is an avid user of Baton Pass even though he's horrible with it. :p
I don't think keeping people without reqs from posting will do much. Soem of the guys with voting reqs are doing a fine job of nominating some rather...questionable pokemon and abilities already.
I don't agree with "ban all auto-weather abilities." Weather isn't ruining the metagame, and you don't need to run weather in order to succeed. Weatherless teams have been proven to work. Banning weather isn't guaranteed to increase diversity just because OU isn't really a place known for diversity in the first place.
I don't think Excadrill should be banned either. It has a fair amount of counters/checks, and like I've said before, any of its attacks that are not named Earthquake really aren't that strong. Yes it gives certain playstyles like hyper offense a hard time, but it doesn't make them completely unplayable, just like Reuniclus doesn't make stall completely unplayable. (Both hyper offense and stall teams have been proven to work as well in this metagame).
I do however, think Latios should be banned, because it's the main reason why specially defensive sets are all the rage these days, and that it can cripple all of its counters with Trick.
And Deoxys-S too, because it's either practically a guaranteed layer of SR/Screens or more, or the fastest sweeper in the game. Predicting the wrong one will also end up leaving you at a huge disadvantage.
Thundurus is something I'm not too sure about.
Baton Pass and Shell Smash I'm also not to sure about. I've never had much trouble with them, but that was only because I ran Roar on Tyranitar that was solely for countering them (and because I had nothing better to put on it). Because of this, I'm not sure it should be banned, but there are some pretty convincing arguments on how it's broken.
Don't re-test Garchomp. It's not broken because of Sand Veil alone, but also because nothing has changed about it since it was deemed broken in Gen 4. Its best "counters" are still Skarmory and Bronzong, and despite 102 Speed not being "fast" anymore, none of the new pokemon can OHKO it or check it well anyways.
Don't re-test Blaziken. It's surprising how so many people think Excadrill is broken and yet think Blaziken isn't. It has fewer counters, much fewer checks, and basically requires you to use a strategy that involves a combination of two or more pokemon to beat it.
Don't re-test Manaphy. Even if Drizzle were to get banned, what's to stop people from just using Rain Dance? The fact that Tail Glow got better is the icing. It was broken in last gen even without Drizzle (and even Kingdra under Rain Dance wasn't considered broken last gen).
This is what I think.
edit:
Dragonite is not broken. Offensive ones are basically outclassed by Salamence (who is also not broken) and Bulky ones are surprisingly not that strong even with 1 or 2 DDs.
Volcarona I can understand arguments of why it's broken but depending on what set it runs it will get walled by something.
I don't think Excadrill should be banned either. It has a fair amount of counters/checks, and like I've said before, any of its attacks that are not named Earthquake really aren't that strong. Yes it gives certain playstyles like hyper offense a hard time, but it doesn't make them completely unplayable, just like Reuniclus doesn't make stall completely unplayable. (Both hyper offense and stall teams have been proven to work as well in this metagame).
I do however, think Latios should be banned, because it's the main reason why specially defensive sets are all the rage these days, and that it can cripple all of its counters with Trick.
And Deoxys-S too, because it's either practically a guaranteed layer of SR/Screens or more, or the fastest sweeper in the game. Predicting the wrong one will also end up leaving you at a huge disadvantage.
Thundurus is something I'm not too sure about.
Baton Pass and Shell Smash I'm also not to sure about. I've never had much trouble with them, but that was only because I ran Roar on Tyranitar that was solely for countering them (and because I had nothing better to put on it). Because of this, I'm not sure it should be banned, but there are some pretty convincing arguments on how it's broken.
Don't re-test Garchomp. It's not broken because of Sand Veil alone, but also because nothing has changed about it since it was deemed broken in Gen 4. Its best "counters" are still Skarmory and Bronzong, and despite 102 Speed not being "fast" anymore, none of the new pokemon can OHKO it or check it well anyways.
Don't re-test Blaziken. It's surprising how so many people think Excadrill is broken and yet think Blaziken isn't. It has fewer counters, much fewer checks, and basically requires you to use a strategy that involves a combination of two or more pokemon to beat it.
Don't re-test Manaphy. Even if Drizzle were to get banned, what's to stop people from just using Rain Dance? The fact that Tail Glow got better is the icing. It was broken in last gen even without Drizzle (and even Kingdra under Rain Dance wasn't considered broken last gen).
This is what I think.
edit:
Dragonite is not broken. Offensive ones are basically outclassed by Salamence (who is also not broken) and Bulky ones are surprisingly not that strong even with 1 or 2 DDs.
Volcarona I can understand arguments of why it's broken but depending on what set it runs it will get walled by something.
The main reason I think blaziken deserves another chance is because I don't exactly see the fine line between him and the other serious suspects anymore. People clamroed for a drizzle ban, and when it wasn't they ran towards pokemon like Celebi, Gastrodon, and Roserade. People wanted an excadrill ban, and when it wasn't gliscor appeared everywhere. When something isn't banned, people will just learn to deal with it and then pass it off as "manageable" after all is said and done. The same exact thing can happen with blaziken. I don't mind running choice band dragonite to check him as CB Dragonite is already an amazing pokemon. I don't care if everybody starts running slowbro, since no one complained when gastrodon abandoned RU and shot up to OU.
You'll probably have to sacrifice a pokemon against most of the chosen suspects anyway, as that tends to be the case when fighting a thundurus or a dragonite.
You'll probably have to sacrifice a pokemon against most of the chosen suspects anyway, as that tends to be the case when fighting a thundurus or a dragonite.
he's joking lol
i think i should say that blaziken is in no way shape or form comparable to other pokemon in the sense that the only pokemon that can beat blaziken are pokemon that can take a hit from it - there's no way that you'll be able to outspeed it due to speed boost - you have to safely get in with a pokemon with > 600 speed if you want to check it with speed (and the only two pokemon like that are a) excadrill and b) scarf deoxys-s and we both know how much they like switching in to blaziken... (in fact, blaziken can beat both of them if they somehow switch in on something like sd if it gets lucky with protect)
so basically you have to be able to not be ohkoed by a pokemon with 130 BP fighting stab, 120 bp fire stab on both ends of the spectrum, and 2 amazing boosting moves in work up and sd - blaziken has no definite defensive "counter" at all. excadrill is probably the current ou sweeper most similar to blaziken in that it has to be checked with bulk, not speed, but blaziken is better than excadrill because excadrill has definite counters in skarm, gliscor, and bronzong, and blaziken does not rely on weather.
I don't really think that would solve the problem. Clearly being good enough to get high up on the ladder doesn't necessarily mean you should be voting, because the majority will always vote in a way that benefits themselves instead of voting to improve the metagame on the whole. Raising reqs will shrink the voter pool but I don't think it will reduce the bias plaguing the noms thread significantly.
You guys are fooling yourselves if you can't see half of those nominations are jokes.
One thing about the "ban all weather noms", have you all considered the fact that without auto-weather, Rain Dance is really, really good? Sure, Ferrothorn does a number on most Rain Dance teams, but it was something that was highly controversial in an environment where no weather exists (see 4th gen UU).
Half the nominations are abominations. They basically nominate things they cannot handle. I personally dont think auto weather should be banned. If auto weather gets banned then you hear everyone complaining on how the metagame is unoriginal. Excadrill should be banned, deoxys never should have left ubers, magic bounce should not be banned, neither should baton pass.
This is something I've been thinking about alot. Even with only 6 turns, stuff like SpecsDra and Ludicolo can tear a hole in many teams. This was never a problem in any of the previous gens due to TTar's existance (it was annoying in UU, but UU didn't have Kingdra). If you remove auto-weather, then rain will become pretty darn powerful (Damp Rock ban part 2?)
- Status