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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I'm reminded of when SmashPass was first hyped up and complained about back in R3 or 4 (Cant recall) and I had just started testing Murkrow. Really, that's a full stop to any passing you want. Although the standard (imo should be anyway) is P-Song, Mean Look, Sub, Roost, by dropping Sub for Haze you not only have an effective stop to stall pokemon you also have a hard counter to BP chains with priority haze.
What I meant is that because jirachi's movepool is so diverse, there are very few pokemon who can sponge all of his attacks. Heatran resists all of his physical attacks, with the exception of thunderpunch, but now I'm wondering how much a CB thunderpunch will do to heatran.
Priority Haze is the main reason I've brought up Murkrow. And wow... Perish Song? That's yet another effective move that Murkrow can stop a BP chain with...
Why yes, Espeon may be used in other teams to fill in other roles, but I didn't say anything to the contrary; what I said is that Espeon is pretty much used only on BP teams. Imagine if Azelf ever got itself considered for a ban in DPPt; people probably would suggest a Stealth Rock ban instead, but do you think a complex ban would be brought up? After all, Azelf isn't completely broken, it's only when it uses Stealth Rock... Ok so what, that's what it does best, it's its best set, ban all, blargh blargh etc etc.
Drizzle is completely different as it's a weather ability so I'm not going to discuss it. But why isn't it a reason? If "Magic Bounce + Baton Pass" is broken, then Espeon is broken because nothing else can use it, and thus we cannot argue that everything else would also be broken. Only Espeon is capable of shitting over BP's counters and being a terrifying receiver, due to its ability, stats, typing and movepool. What if it didn't have 130 SAtk or 110 Speed? What if it didn't get Stored Power? What if Xatu could have Magic Bounce+Baton Pass? We cannot say a thing about these scenarios because they don't exist (and the last one won't for God knows how long either); what we know is that Espeon may be broken, because it has the right tools to do its work superbly well. It's that simple.
Listen to this girlyman, he knows his shit.
Oh, so you're one of those fuckers who know Espeon learns Morning Sun. You're a good man.
Ok, lets change gears a bit. Lets discuss the #2 pokemon in the metagame, Rotom-W. The thing is annoying as fuck I tell you. Jesus I have tried everything against it, Gastrodon, Ferrothorn, Latias, Chansey, Celebi, all of them have there problems, and none of them like a burn or a tricked choice item.
I think I am playing against the thing totally wrong, because it personally screws me over about half the time I see it. So just asking, how do you all deal with it? Any specific combination, fancy battle plans, lures, whatever, I need some other way of dealing with the dam washing machine. At this point, I am willing to listen to anything, at one point I even considered a choice Celebi on my team just to deal with it.
(BTW, I am not insinuating Rotom-W is broken, I am enough of a man to realize its me who is at fault here.)
I think I am playing against the thing totally wrong, because it personally screws me over about half the time I see it. So just asking, how do you all deal with it? Any specific combination, fancy battle plans, lures, whatever, I need some other way of dealing with the dam washing machine. At this point, I am willing to listen to anything, at one point I even considered a choice Celebi on my team just to deal with it.
(BTW, I am not insinuating Rotom-W is broken, I am enough of a man to realize its me who is at fault here.)
you could always pressure stall it out of hydro pump pp. sub protect works well too. At that point pretty much any ground type can wall it. sub gliscor makes for a pretty good lure.
I deal with ROtom W how I would any other pokemon. My team has checks for it and all it takes is a bit of smart prediction and its never much of a problem. And if for example, my Latias gets burnt then w/e thats just smart play on my opponents part and I just move on. In all honesty, it just sounds like you are just getting predicted around and the best way to fix that is doing some predicting of your own. Rotom W prolly wont Trick off the bat, unless you are running a defensive team or BLissey/Chansey and I can scout if its choiced within the first few turns.
If you wanted solutions pokemon wise I guess you could run an Offensive Shaymin which prolly don't mind being tricked a Scarf too much and has Natural Cure to get rid of Burn and is not Pursuit weak like Celebi. Seriously tho, just sharpen your prediction skills and you should be fine.
If you wanted solutions pokemon wise I guess you could run an Offensive Shaymin which prolly don't mind being tricked a Scarf too much and has Natural Cure to get rid of Burn and is not Pursuit weak like Celebi. Seriously tho, just sharpen your prediction skills and you should be fine.
I love alternate form pokemon and of the rotom family, Rotom Cut is my favorite. And he is a pretty nice counter to roto w from my lengthy experience using him.
Speaking of broken records...
Lets run some Calcs. 252 SpAtk Heatran Hidden Power Ice vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Dragonite: 44.04% - 51.81%. That is with Multiscale. You are not stalling that out. You are hitting dead even and getting 1 boost at best. And Dragonite? If it attacks :64 +1 Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs 4 HP/0 Def Heatran: 28.4% - 33.33%. 3-4 hits to KO. And you are 2HKO'd by that Heatran. Yeah good luck pulling that off.
The problem is is that they will reliably switch in. That is why the pokemon carry them in the first place. Nite isn't fast. Even after a Dragon Dance lots of things outspeed him. If you want a fast DD that is threatening after one DD you should be arguing Salamence instead.
SR breaks MultiScale. Thus you either Roost or take damage. Either way you lose. You roost? in comes Heatran with Roar/HP Ice. You do nothing to it and your Dragonite is now either A) Crippled, or B) Gone and has to switch into SR again.
Where are the stats.... Besides if Ferro decides to Seed you in rain, what are you going to do? Roost? DD? Fire Punch? Earthquake? Any and all of those options are ridiculous. None of them get you the upper hand with Nite, as he loses Multiscale, which is the entire reason to use him.
The way I always dealt with it was by getting it to switch 2 times with SR on the field, and then hitting it with a very strong STAB attack. Most notably, TR Reuniclus. It's easy to get the 2 SR switch ins due to all the Volt Switching.
You forgot to factor in Roost. Dragonite wins here. You block the HP Ice with Roost, taking 26% with max damage roll. Sub on the next turn, then Roost again and, assuming Leftovers, you're Roosting back up to 100%.
HP Ice and Ice Beam have 16 PP. Sub + Roost is 32 PP, 16 each. Dragonite can easily PP stall most Ice-type moves. Its SubRoost bulkyDD set makes Latias look like a wet leaf.
Don't most Heatran pack Roar? I think neither really has an advantage. Plus, although less common, Heatran does get Will-o-wisp, and Dragonite can't stall out anything with a burn.
The SubDD set can beat Heatran assuming you have a DD up granted. Heatran is a good check to Dragonite not an outright counter. Just a quick note about my inexperience though:
252 SpA Modest Heatran Dragon Pulse vs 252 Hp/0 SpDef Dragonite (Multiscale activated): 28.0% ~ 33.2%
252 SpA Modest Heatran HP Dragon (What HP Ice would be if Dragonite Roosts) vs 252 Hp/0 SpDef Dragonite (Multiscale activated): 22.0% ~ 25.9%
Dragon Pulse is a lot stronger than HP Ice in that situation and can break Dragonite's subs even with Multiscale up. If Heatran switches in after Dragonite DD's, assuming it runs Dragon Pulse it will break all subs (so you can't Roost behind them) and will hit you for a nice ~30% once you do Roost. You can stall it out if you're lucky and dont get critted but i really dont see this working against something like a Gliscor.
On the subject of Specially defensive Heatran, it can Roar it away until it is the last pokemon at which point it should have taken Stealth Rock damage at least once considering that it's only showing its face at the end of the match giving me plenty of time to set them down. And unless Heatran is the absolute last pokemon i have, i'd still have a chance to win.
badabing said:
So your plan is to use Sub + Roost to stall out everything that can hurt you and sweep..ok. I can still find counters to that though. The standard Taunt + Ice Fang Gliscor always counters Dragonite. It even has reliable healing thanks to Poison Heal and Dragon Claw wont be hurting much especially not with a measly 44 EV's in Atk. Hippowdon can Ice Fang for major damage, Roar out Dragonite if it gets too many boosts/Subs and can set up rocks to disable Multiscale. Not to mention the fact that it has reliable recovery; another counter. There are plenty of pokemon that can even set-up along Dragonite and beat it, DD Scrafty, NP Thundurus etc. Speaking of Thundurus it's a decent check thanks to Taunt and HP Ice. Mold Breaker Haxorus is another check with Dual Chop having the ability to break subs and ignoring Multiscale completely. There are tons of other pokemon that give Dragonite trouble too: Deoxys-S, HP Ice Virizion, Starmie, Gengar,etc...
And about Excadrill, i'd say 60% is pretty damn good for something that's not even a boosted attack. Especially considering that Dragon Claw wont KO and Excadrill will always outspeed bar something ridiculous like +4 Speed. Also, i thought we were talking about the 'OP' Sub DD set, where'd Fire Punch come from all of a sudden? If you do run Fire Punch then my Heatran becomes another counter as well.
badabing said:
And my rebuttal was that Dragonite is too slow to be Roosting right after it switches in. Something faster will be able to hit/status it most times before it Roosts. If it DD's first it's in the same boat and will still have to take a hit at full power.
badabing said:
Many people run Skarmory on rain teams. I dont see why they shouldn't. Its a great check for Excadrill and can reliably set-up Spikes to help the team. You should be prepared for any ind of situation and if you can't damage a Skarmory in the Rain then it becomes another counter as well. And dont tell me that you can last pokemon stall a Rain team with at least half their members possessing an Ice move.
badabing said:
Both those statements are true. Just look at where Dragonite and Blaziken were last gen and where they are now. By the way, you're Blaziken example is wrong and in no way close to Dragonite's situation. Multiscale can be disabled, meanwhile Speed Boost cannot.
badabing said:
Divert you're eyes to paragraph 2.
PS: It might seem a bit rushed and that's because my comp crashed in the middle and i had to retype it .. blah blah. Anyways i dont think i missed anything too important also ..... **** Ninjas.
Interesting, I honestly never thought of using Gliscor like that. I might actually try it since my team is sort of set up for such a thing.
Yeah that's the problem, I am terrible at prediction, to be honest I would get better results if I flipped a coin then tried to predict people. I don't think my mind has any basis to read people and predict there actions, and yes I am terrible at poker.
For now I will try that Gliscor lure strategy, but if I still get predicted like crazy, I might just use Shaymin. Thanks anyway.
SubDD actually runs a bit more defensive investment than the arbitrary 252 HP standards. Preventing Heatran from breaking a multiscale sub with max modest Dragon Pulse would be a good number to shoot for. HP Ice can be stalled out with Roost.
We've been referring to multiple sets throughout this. SubDD is one, standard DD + coverage + Roost is another, and Fire Punch is frequently used on that.
A lot of those checks are just bad. They are not switching in. If DNite has a one turn advantage gl.
Nah it can Roost on plenty of things, you can often create an opportunity for it with a favorable double switch.
Lol at this point if you want to believe Skarm is commonly seen on rain teams, be my guest. Steels I see a lot of on rain teams are Ferrothorn, Bronzong, Jirachi, and Scizor. Maybe two Skarms in all 5 rounds of testing on somewhat shitty rain stall. w/e
Yeah you are right that Multi-Scale can be disabled. I'll try again. When you say, "Without Mulit-Scale, Dragonite is just an inferior Salamence," it sounds stupid to me because it's like "Take away a poke's inherent niche that gives it a place in the metagame and it's outclassed by x." Maybe I'm not good with words, but you can say everything is outclassed by something without their most important trait. Did you mean to say "once Multi-Scale is disabled", but even then it still can get back to Multi Scale so that's not really an end all argument.
Haha had to retype now that's commitment.
I don't even know if I covered it.
We've been referring to multiple sets throughout this. SubDD is one, standard DD + coverage + Roost is another, and Fire Punch is frequently used on that.
A lot of those checks are just bad. They are not switching in. If DNite has a one turn advantage gl.
Nah it can Roost on plenty of things, you can often create an opportunity for it with a favorable double switch.
Lol at this point if you want to believe Skarm is commonly seen on rain teams, be my guest. Steels I see a lot of on rain teams are Ferrothorn, Bronzong, Jirachi, and Scizor. Maybe two Skarms in all 5 rounds of testing on somewhat shitty rain stall. w/e
Yeah you are right that Multi-Scale can be disabled. I'll try again. When you say, "Without Mulit-Scale, Dragonite is just an inferior Salamence," it sounds stupid to me because it's like "Take away a poke's inherent niche that gives it a place in the metagame and it's outclassed by x." Maybe I'm not good with words, but you can say everything is outclassed by something without their most important trait. Did you mean to say "once Multi-Scale is disabled", but even then it still can get back to Multi Scale so that's not really an end all argument.
Haha had to retype now that's commitment.
I don't even know if I covered it.
Any points that you'd invest in SpDef will have to be subtracted from Dragonite's already poor Speed stat or from it's Attack. That number is pretty high too, even with 252 HP/252 SpDef Heatran's Dragon Pulse deals 22.0% ~ 26.2% still a chance to break throught the Multiscale subs. That is a really bad set to run though with no Atk or Speed investment. You'll find that the Dragon Pulse damage is highly variable at around ~100 SpD EV's.
That's the point i brought up in my first post. When you brought up the 4 main Dragonite sets and stated it's brokenness. None of those sets we're broken on their own and all had counters and checks. Then you focused on the Sub DD set as the main culprit so naturally i tried to find counters for that one. Taunt really stops it cold.
I admit those checks were somewhat arbitrary but it at least demonstrated that Dragonite does not have such an easy time setting up and Roosting as it pleases.
I have seen Skarmory on rain teams and regardless of whether or not they are run on Rain teams, the fact remain that they can be. If a player chooses not to run it then he may get swept by a Dragonite, his call. Others however may choose to do so if Dragonite is such a pain to their team.
And yes that's what i meant to imply when i said it. Particularly when SR is up. It has difficulty Roosting too... but i'm repeating myself at this point.
Thanks.
That's the point i brought up in my first post. When you brought up the 4 main Dragonite sets and stated it's brokenness. None of those sets we're broken on their own and all had counters and checks. Then you focused on the Sub DD set as the main culprit so naturally i tried to find counters for that one. Taunt really stops it cold.
I admit those checks were somewhat arbitrary but it at least demonstrated that Dragonite does not have such an easy time setting up and Roosting as it pleases.
I have seen Skarmory on rain teams and regardless of whether or not they are run on Rain teams, the fact remain that they can be. If a player chooses not to run it then he may get swept by a Dragonite, his call. Others however may choose to do so if Dragonite is such a pain to their team.
And yes that's what i meant to imply when i said it. Particularly when SR is up. It has difficulty Roosting too... but i'm repeating myself at this point.
Thanks.
Hmm, it's looking more and more likely that nothing will be banned this round.
I'm disappointed that Drizzle wasn't thrown out, and relieved that Sand and Baton Pass are staying. Bar Thundurus, I don't think that anything has a real chance of being banned.
I'm still nervous about Dragonite. Merely being on the ballot has me on edge...
We all agree that Dragonite is OU, and won't be banned right guys?
I'm disappointed that Drizzle wasn't thrown out, and relieved that Sand and Baton Pass are staying. Bar Thundurus, I don't think that anything has a real chance of being banned.
I'm still nervous about Dragonite. Merely being on the ballot has me on edge...
We all agree that Dragonite is OU, and won't be banned right guys?
I'll certainly be surprised if it goes ou and I certainly wont have any reason for OU anymore sense IMO weather is the bane of this gen.
Even still I can see some of the arguments about Dragonite.
I only answer your post, not that you said
Is Espeon used outside Baton Pass chains?
I said it is not a reason.
I say it again. I forgot, it can use Baton Pass outside Baton Pass chains, besides to pass CM, to run away from Pursuit by avoiding damage.
Looking at the posts I see that Baton Pass is disliked to a significant degree. If in the future it becomes suspect again, I can see it being put through some form of complex ban, even if complex bans are discouraged. Moving on to another suspect, whats your opinion on Deoxys-S. It seems that a substantial amount of players think its broken. Personally, I don't think its broken as of now. Somehow I always end up checking it due to having a strong hitter that can either OHKO or 2HKO it. I have to admit it is very unpredictable, your safest switch-in is probably a Psychic/Steel. Its unpredictability is probably the only characteristic I see that pushes it in the Ubers direction. Speed is another arguable one I guess. Would be glad to hear your thoughts on any other characteristics that push it in that direction.
I think Deoxys-s is totally not Uber. The attacking set misses the power to hit really hard. I heard a lot of people say Deoxys is broken, because it can get up two layer of hazards guaranteed. But you just need one turn to Rapid Spin to destroy all of its efforts of setting this hazards, and a lot of Pokemon can get two layers almost all the time. So i don't see why Deoxys should be banned, and I bet it won't be.
Rotom-W can be handled by Celebi, Shaymin, Roserade, drought teams, lanturn (also stops thundurus if you need him to do something else or even mail blissey on a stall team(as blissey generally sucks).
There are some other options but I won't bother mentioning them. When you try to bring up the one good thing a crap poke can do, people attack you as if you're saying that the pokemon is amazing or something. Like what happened on the server yesterday with camerupt as a volc counter.
There are some other options but I won't bother mentioning them. When you try to bring up the one good thing a crap poke can do, people attack you as if you're saying that the pokemon is amazing or something. Like what happened on the server yesterday with camerupt as a volc counter.
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