Nice post count, btw. But they have a very winnable game this week and they've kept all of their loses close, never know.
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The Everything NFL Thread: 2011-2012 Season (plus free agency I guess)
- Thread starter WaterBomb
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Nice post count, btw. But they have a very winnable game this week and they've kept all of their loses close, never know.
and his 102 qb rating, and super bowl mvp are average too right?
Thats pretty harsh considering he has a ring and has had some good seasons. He gets criticized too much and yet guys like Flacco and Freemen have been awful this year and they havent really been talked about.
wat
(I seriously don't have any words, you don't even have any predisposition to hating Manning due to your allegiances so there is no reason for you to be so stupid about it)
Vikings could be winning the Luck sweepstakes if they had not been retarded and drafted Ponder this year!!!
? whoever gets luck out of almost every team except those with elite qbs that will stick for a while will take luck no matter what
this includes the rams and vikings, you better believe theyd ship out ponder and bradford for the next elway/manning, a guy whos going to take you to the playoffs every single year pretty much by himself...
lol okay, I will belive it when I see it. I obviously think he is significantly better than ponder, but I am not about to declare him a Hall of Famer before he has taken a single NFL snap.
Wait, you mean the 102 QB rating he's achieved in the first 5 games of one season? How about a larger sample (like, say, his entire career):
His career passer rating is 81.2. His average YPA is 6.9. His accuracy is 58.2%.
So he has a ring? Big deal. Trent Dilfer has a ring. That Super Bowl MVP he won? During that game he completed 55.9% of his passes for 2 TDs and 1 INT. The rest of his career he's been carried by his offensive line. He only really had one solid regular season, and that was in 2009 when he had a 93.1 passer rating, 27/14 TD/INT ratio, 62.3 comp pct, and 7.9 YPA average. The rest of his years have been average to bleh.
Show me more evidence that he is above average and I will rethink my position. Until then don't come at me like you have some secret knowledge. I've been watching football for a very long time, and I know the difference between levels of quarterbacks. The stats only further back my point.
I honestly think Ponder is a franchise QB. Was he the best QB last year? No, Mallett will have the most decorated career, but Ponder will give the Vikes a good shot at the playoffs within 3 years. That's just my impression from his preseason games. He's definetely better than McNabb. I have got to find the pic of Percy Harvin wide open in the end zone from Sunday.
I love the thought of the Niners having a R1 bye...at the same time though, I'd dread the upcoming match against the Packers lol.sweet jesus no, keep him out of the AFC East
????????????
You do have a point, Luck in the AFC East would be a bad place to grow...I still stand by the Colts not needing another Manning though.
As for younger Manning, to me he's good, certainly I'd take him over quite a few other QBs out there. But at the same time, there are several better QBs than him as well, but that's where you're getting into top 5/10 territory too, where the quality jumps quite a bit.
Lol, no. Just no. That wasn't his point at all.
In all honesty I want to see Luck go to a good team, and not be forced to carry his team by himself and struggle for a few years.
Oh, he means there being another good QB for that division...eh, Brady will retire eventually, Sanchez isn't super great, and Harvard boy is only now becoming good, so eh.
That is the opposite of how first overall picks work.
WB, Eli may have average career stats, but that's only because he has had an equal number of bad and good years. His first four years were pretty awful; 54.7% completion rating, 6.3 YPA, 77 TDs, 64 Ints and a 73.4 rating.
However, over the past 3 1/3 years, his numbers are significantly better: 62.0% completion rating, 7.5 YPA, 90 TDs and 54 Ints for a 89.6 rating. Hardly comparable to Smith, Gradkowski, or Campbell, none of whom have had a single season where they eclipse an 87 passer rating in their entire careers.
Is he elite? Not unless you're retarded and list nearly half of the league's starting QBs as elite. In my opinion, he is at least a top 10 or 12 quarterback, on the same level as Ryan, Flacco, Freeman, Schaub, and possibly Fitzpatrick and Stafford depending on whether what we've seen of them this season is an exception or whether they'll continue on their current pace.
Is it? I was under the impressions hopes and wishes were reality. I know it's not going to happen, but I hate seeing talent wasted.
informative with a pinch of douche to keep you on your seat as you read them
always good to see a (The?)Valkyries post
always good to see a (The?)Valkyries post
Peyton Manning was a first overall pick. Look how that turned out!
@Killah - You made a pretty accurate point there, but I'd still consider those other QBs you listed (Flacco, Ryan, Freeman, Fitz, Schaub) as in the "average to decent" category. These QBs are all good enough to not screw things up for their team and pass efficiently when protected, but they don't function all that well in crunch time or when they are forced to carry the team on their shoulders. There's a reason 95% of super bowls are won by a team with an elite QB at the helm, and a super bowl here and there is won by a team with a decent QB but a ton of talent everywhere else (see: 07 Giants, 01 Ravens). I think you'll agree that a common thread among Super Bowl winners over the years is elite quarterbacks, and only a handful of times was that not the case.
I'm not saying Eli Manning is BAD, I just don't think he's all that good. The problem with ranking QBs is there is such a drastic drop-off between elite and decent status that you'll have an elite QB ranked at #5 or 6 (like Roethlisberger or Rivers) and then you'll have a QB ranked at #7 like Ryan or Schaub that in reality is far below them but on paper looks to be almost as good. It would be difficult to build a top 15 QB list without some significant drop offs in numbers adjacent to each other.
@Killah - You made a pretty accurate point there, but I'd still consider those other QBs you listed (Flacco, Ryan, Freeman, Fitz, Schaub) as in the "average to decent" category. These QBs are all good enough to not screw things up for their team and pass efficiently when protected, but they don't function all that well in crunch time or when they are forced to carry the team on their shoulders. There's a reason 95% of super bowls are won by a team with an elite QB at the helm, and a super bowl here and there is won by a team with a decent QB but a ton of talent everywhere else (see: 07 Giants, 01 Ravens). I think you'll agree that a common thread among Super Bowl winners over the years is elite quarterbacks, and only a handful of times was that not the case.
I'm not saying Eli Manning is BAD, I just don't think he's all that good. The problem with ranking QBs is there is such a drastic drop-off between elite and decent status that you'll have an elite QB ranked at #5 or 6 (like Roethlisberger or Rivers) and then you'll have a QB ranked at #7 like Ryan or Schaub that in reality is far below them but on paper looks to be almost as good. It would be difficult to build a top 15 QB list without some significant drop offs in numbers adjacent to each other.
Yeah, he struggled in his first year and his team went 3-13. I really would've loved to have watched that.
Look at what's happening now with Cam Newton... He's performing well, leading to his team being within one score of the opposing team in every loss this season (against some very strong teams), but his lack of a Defense continues to lube up and bone him in the anus (at least they're considerate using the lube). It's not entertaining to watch. It's frustrating. No matter what Cam Newton does after this it's still frustrating to watch him now. No one likes rooting for a loser, even if they have a lot of talent.
@ TIK: Love you too, babe.
"performing well"
58% completion percentage, 7 TD/6 INT
whatthefuckamIreading.jpg
@WB: I agree with your final point, there is definitely a significant difference between the best of the best and the above average guys like Ryan/Schaub/etc. I don't think Eli Manning is anything special either (I put very little stock in Super Bowl championships, as the performance of the overall team so vastly outweighs the importance of a single player in football, no matter what kd24 would like you to believe), but he is far above the run-of-the-mill quarterbacks like Alex Smith/Gradkowski/Campbell.
"well" as in "better than expected" fits the bill.
Better than all of his peers drafted in the past three years (minus Stafford): Sanchez, McCoy, Freeman, Dalton, Gabbert, and Bradford.
WB, I think our issue is at what we consider average. The way I see it, there are 32 quarterbacks in the league; guys who are ~13th-20th are "average". I think everyone can agree on the top four (Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning), and probably on the next four (Roethlisberger, Rivers, Vick, and Romo). I consider Eli to be in the next group (Ryan, Flacco, Schaub, and Stafford if he keeps it up) which puts him ~ the 10th best quarterback. If you're better than two thirds of the league, I'd say that puts you at "above average"
When I said it was the opposite of how #1 picks work, I had simply meant that all first overall picks go to bad teams. There is almost never a team that is nearly complete and only missing a quarterback to make them good. A rookie QB needs a great offensive line, decent running back, and good receiving core to be successful. This is why Ryan and Flacco were successful in '08, why Newton is successful this year, why Manning was bad his rookie year and why Luck will probably be in a bad situation next year.
Better than all of his peers drafted in the past three years (minus Stafford): Sanchez, McCoy, Freeman, Dalton, Gabbert, and Bradford.
WB, I think our issue is at what we consider average. The way I see it, there are 32 quarterbacks in the league; guys who are ~13th-20th are "average". I think everyone can agree on the top four (Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning), and probably on the next four (Roethlisberger, Rivers, Vick, and Romo). I consider Eli to be in the next group (Ryan, Flacco, Schaub, and Stafford if he keeps it up) which puts him ~ the 10th best quarterback. If you're better than two thirds of the league, I'd say that puts you at "above average"
When I said it was the opposite of how #1 picks work, I had simply meant that all first overall picks go to bad teams. There is almost never a team that is nearly complete and only missing a quarterback to make them good. A rookie QB needs a great offensive line, decent running back, and good receiving core to be successful. This is why Ryan and Flacco were successful in '08, why Newton is successful this year, why Manning was bad his rookie year and why Luck will probably be in a bad situation next year.
I think that draft picks should be a league wide lottery Killah. How it does work is irrelevant; how it could or should work is fine, this is a discussion and none of us have the power to actually effect a change. I wish Luck would go to a team like the Titans for sure, it would be fantastic.
WaterBomb, average is by definition something like being exactly the 50th% of everyone. In the NFL this is hard to approximate since there is a perpetual revolving door due to injury/poor skills between the 25th-32nd best QBs or so (see Kerry Collins and Curtis Painter both getting play, both Jags QBs, et cetera). If you want to talk about average, #12-13 is the absolute highest you should talk.
Skullfuckingly elite quarterbacks:
Brady
Greater Manning
Rodgers
Brees
very good quarterbacks:
Romo
Roethlisberger
Lesser Manning
Vick
Rivers
Schaub (still looks more competent than a lot of quarterbacks even without Andre Johnson!)
probably very good (I want to see if they fall off the next 3-4 games, especially Newton):
Stafford
Fitzpatrick
Newton
Wow! As a professional curmudgeon, I usually end up putting more things in life on the dislike list than like list, but if you throw in an apparently revived Hasselbeck, you have a very good list of clearly above average quarterbacks. I do not see any real dropoff here...all of them are winning games. Matt Cassel, Tavaris Jackson, Mark Sanchez, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan...these are average quarterbacks.
If the three new star quarterbacks are legitimate, one or two of them might even stunningly join the elite quarterback group - for that we need another year to see though, not just a few games. I feel like luck turns into "swagger" at some point, and the Lions might really have reached that point, so Stafford might actually get BETTER as the season goes on. I am definitely fucking excited either way. Ryan Fitzpatrick got up to 23-15 last season on TD/INT, which showed maturity. This season he is on pace for 32-13, and that would show being elite. As for Newton, if he can complete even 60-61%, it seems like he might be the most unstoppable quarterback in the league...he already has a positive TD/INT rate while having all the responsibility put on him and throwing too much, and do not forget he has 5 TD to just 2 fumbles on the ground. 12 TD to just 8 turnovers for a rookie is fucking fantastic. 1610 yards in 5 games, even in the year passing went nuts, is mindfuckingly fantastic for a rookie. He is certainly making too many mistakes, this is because he is a rookie and having to force/wanting to force too many passes. I do not think he is destined to always be sloppy; I think he is destined to be fucking incredible. He has one less 20+ yard pass than Brady, both of whom are at least 6 more ahead of next place (Eli Manning 8====D). He is competing just small amounts worse than Brady and Rodgers as a rookie...saying he is not good is sheer ignorance. I am not a good study of history; I do not know what the most touchdowns for a rookie ever is. He is on pace for 38 TD and 5000+ yards as a rookie, and while passing yards are definitely inflated this season, touchdowns are not so inflated! Scoring is 2 points per game per team more, not 7.
WaterBomb, average is by definition something like being exactly the 50th% of everyone. In the NFL this is hard to approximate since there is a perpetual revolving door due to injury/poor skills between the 25th-32nd best QBs or so (see Kerry Collins and Curtis Painter both getting play, both Jags QBs, et cetera). If you want to talk about average, #12-13 is the absolute highest you should talk.
Skullfuckingly elite quarterbacks:
Brady
Greater Manning
Rodgers
Brees
very good quarterbacks:
Romo
Roethlisberger
Lesser Manning
Vick
Rivers
Schaub (still looks more competent than a lot of quarterbacks even without Andre Johnson!)
probably very good (I want to see if they fall off the next 3-4 games, especially Newton):
Stafford
Fitzpatrick
Newton
Wow! As a professional curmudgeon, I usually end up putting more things in life on the dislike list than like list, but if you throw in an apparently revived Hasselbeck, you have a very good list of clearly above average quarterbacks. I do not see any real dropoff here...all of them are winning games. Matt Cassel, Tavaris Jackson, Mark Sanchez, Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan...these are average quarterbacks.
If the three new star quarterbacks are legitimate, one or two of them might even stunningly join the elite quarterback group - for that we need another year to see though, not just a few games. I feel like luck turns into "swagger" at some point, and the Lions might really have reached that point, so Stafford might actually get BETTER as the season goes on. I am definitely fucking excited either way. Ryan Fitzpatrick got up to 23-15 last season on TD/INT, which showed maturity. This season he is on pace for 32-13, and that would show being elite. As for Newton, if he can complete even 60-61%, it seems like he might be the most unstoppable quarterback in the league...he already has a positive TD/INT rate while having all the responsibility put on him and throwing too much, and do not forget he has 5 TD to just 2 fumbles on the ground. 12 TD to just 8 turnovers for a rookie is fucking fantastic. 1610 yards in 5 games, even in the year passing went nuts, is mindfuckingly fantastic for a rookie. He is certainly making too many mistakes, this is because he is a rookie and having to force/wanting to force too many passes. I do not think he is destined to always be sloppy; I think he is destined to be fucking incredible. He has one less 20+ yard pass than Brady, both of whom are at least 6 more ahead of next place (Eli Manning 8====D). He is competing just small amounts worse than Brady and Rodgers as a rookie...saying he is not good is sheer ignorance. I am not a good study of history; I do not know what the most touchdowns for a rookie ever is. He is on pace for 38 TD and 5000+ yards as a rookie, and while passing yards are definitely inflated this season, touchdowns are not so inflated! Scoring is 2 points per game per team more, not 7.
I was gonna post a few similar stats, like the fact that Newton is outperforming Philip Rivers, then add a snarky comment about who is not "performing well," but CK dropped this glorious piece of art here, so no need.
I agree with CK about Newton. He's doing pretty damn well for a rookie, and he should only get better from here. We'll see how it turns out in the coming weeks. Hopefully the Panthers can get some defense.
I'm pretty surprised about what people are saying about Houston. Maybe I'm just a pesimist, but the defense seemed to be dependent on Williams. Once he left in the first quarter, they did not perform nearly as well. Offense was great in the first quarter, but the whole team seemed to fall apart after that. I wouldn't put Schaub as high as CK put him. I think Ryan and Flacco should be higher. I wonder if Derrick Mason will be able to give our offense a boost. Hopefully he's better than Jacoby Jones.
I'm pretty surprised about what people are saying about Houston. Maybe I'm just a pesimist, but the defense seemed to be dependent on Williams. Once he left in the first quarter, they did not perform nearly as well. Offense was great in the first quarter, but the whole team seemed to fall apart after that. I wouldn't put Schaub as high as CK put him. I think Ryan and Flacco should be higher. I wonder if Derrick Mason will be able to give our offense a boost. Hopefully he's better than Jacoby Jones.
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