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np: UU Stage 4 - I'm Dreaming of a White Christmas
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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I don't think anyone is shocked that Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are not currently banned under the evasion clause. If they were, it would be kind of silly for so many people to be arguing for it to be included under the evasion. Unless smogon has a policy of "never change our rules" then arguing that "it's not already in the rules" is pretty meaningless.
@ Detroitlolcat
Your justification for not banning something is that we haven't banned it yet. How the fuck does that make any sense?
In fact, the only thing that bringing the rules into play does is prove your reasoning is false in the first place. We actually have amended the rule. It did not always include items. It was decided that those items weren't great but they were uncompetitive. Kind of like how it was decided that evasion moves weren't great but they were uncompetitive. And now people are saying that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil are not necessarily broken but they're uncompetitive. Seems logical to me.
Your justification for not banning something is that we haven't banned it yet. How the fuck does that make any sense?
In fact, the only thing that bringing the rules into play does is prove your reasoning is false in the first place. We actually have amended the rule. It did not always include items. It was decided that those items weren't great but they were uncompetitive. Kind of like how it was decided that evasion moves weren't great but they were uncompetitive. And now people are saying that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil are not necessarily broken but they're uncompetitive. Seems logical to me.
So I was on smogon this morning and I noticed that UU is going through another round.
I decided to check it out out of curiosity. And I heard people complaining about snow cloak, whether it's broken, or not.
Now, here's what I did. I made up a quick hail team and played a few matches. The hail team did very well, and defeated a ton of opponents. However, snow cloak is the problem, yes?
Snow cloak is like the game corner. Either you win, or you don't. I've been using frosslass and snow cloak hasn't come much in handy for her. Now for my other mons, it's been great! :D
However! This comes down to hax then. Some players might get extremely lucky and constantly get that 20% chance of evasion. Others? mmmmm, not so much. It's all about luck.
Now I'm against banning snow cloak. Ban froslass instead. Why? Well. There are a couple of opinionated statements here, so bear with me here.
There are many snow cloakers and I love almost all of them. So I would like to keep snow cloak. Take Glaceon for example. It has snow cloak. Yet it isn't quite like froslass. Instead, it relies on blizzspamming, and a small special movepool. He does have good defense, but a special set is quite devastating. He's not very fast, so there is a chance that he can get KO'ed even with snow cloak. It can be defeated quite easily if you fight it correctly.
But with froslass, she has lots of speed so she can outspeed and hope to get subs up. Then once she gets a sub, the fun begins. She can pain split off the damage, spin block, set up hazards, and even do some damage. That's devastating.
You want to know what this reminds me of? Speed boost blaziken. He had the right moves, good attacking stats, but not enough speed. Then speed boost came along and he became uber. It wasn't that speed boost was broken, but that a certain mon with it became broken.
Now some of you may be saying "But Master Win, speed boost blaziken has nothing to DO with UU and snow cloak!". And you are correct. But what about on another mon? Let's say we gave regigigas huge power. is huge power broken? No. But when given to a certain pokemon that could use it, it becomes a huge problem.
Now, I'm not gonna diss the people who disagree with me. As I said, OPINIONATED STATEMENTS. I may be wrong about a few things. And forgive me about that. But I personally believe that it should just be froslass that gets banned. I don't see why other pokemon have to get caught in misfire because of her.
EDIT: Uncompetitive? Well sure, they aren't exactly like OU material, but I wouldn't go as far as banning them for the sake of uncompetitiveness.
I decided to check it out out of curiosity. And I heard people complaining about snow cloak, whether it's broken, or not.
Now, here's what I did. I made up a quick hail team and played a few matches. The hail team did very well, and defeated a ton of opponents. However, snow cloak is the problem, yes?
Snow cloak is like the game corner. Either you win, or you don't. I've been using frosslass and snow cloak hasn't come much in handy for her. Now for my other mons, it's been great! :D
However! This comes down to hax then. Some players might get extremely lucky and constantly get that 20% chance of evasion. Others? mmmmm, not so much. It's all about luck.
Now I'm against banning snow cloak. Ban froslass instead. Why? Well. There are a couple of opinionated statements here, so bear with me here.
There are many snow cloakers and I love almost all of them. So I would like to keep snow cloak. Take Glaceon for example. It has snow cloak. Yet it isn't quite like froslass. Instead, it relies on blizzspamming, and a small special movepool. He does have good defense, but a special set is quite devastating. He's not very fast, so there is a chance that he can get KO'ed even with snow cloak. It can be defeated quite easily if you fight it correctly.
But with froslass, she has lots of speed so she can outspeed and hope to get subs up. Then once she gets a sub, the fun begins. She can pain split off the damage, spin block, set up hazards, and even do some damage. That's devastating.
You want to know what this reminds me of? Speed boost blaziken. He had the right moves, good attacking stats, but not enough speed. Then speed boost came along and he became uber. It wasn't that speed boost was broken, but that a certain mon with it became broken.
Now some of you may be saying "But Master Win, speed boost blaziken has nothing to DO with UU and snow cloak!". And you are correct. But what about on another mon? Let's say we gave regigigas huge power. is huge power broken? No. But when given to a certain pokemon that could use it, it becomes a huge problem.
Now, I'm not gonna diss the people who disagree with me. As I said, OPINIONATED STATEMENTS. I may be wrong about a few things. And forgive me about that. But I personally believe that it should just be froslass that gets banned. I don't see why other pokemon have to get caught in misfire because of her.
EDIT: Uncompetitive? Well sure, they aren't exactly like OU material, but I wouldn't go as far as banning them for the sake of uncompetitiveness.
Snow Cloak is just a stupid ability in this tier all around. It's the only thing about Hail that's even dangerous and can be abused on at least three decent Pokemon that can seriously ruin a team with one or two free turns. Blizzard spam is just a joke, I might as well coin the term "V-create spam".
Also, the problem with suggesting Abomasnow as a suspect is that he's basically a filler Pokemon that has no synergy with Hail teams at all. Last stage, we had Stoutland + Hippowdon. This stage we have Abomasnow + ??? with Aboma posing a threat by...Subseeding? What does he even do? Wall Suicune? If we got rid of the Snow Cloak business, there's really nothing else Hail could do and it'd barely be a threat at all.
Also, the problem with suggesting Abomasnow as a suspect is that he's basically a filler Pokemon that has no synergy with Hail teams at all. Last stage, we had Stoutland + Hippowdon. This stage we have Abomasnow + ??? with Aboma posing a threat by...Subseeding? What does he even do? Wall Suicune? If we got rid of the Snow Cloak business, there's really nothing else Hail could do and it'd barely be a threat at all.
Gotta agree with this, without Snow Cloak users such as Froslass (actually an abuser), Mamoswine and Glaceon, hail would be so much less broken. Snow Cloak is just bullshit, ban it.
Now, I'm seeing something here. Pokemon are getting banned for their abilities. Blaziken+SB=ban. Exca+Sand rush=ban. And the next one should be froslass+snow cloak=ban.
Why haven't we banned sand veil yet? Because the pokemon that have it aren't that great. That's why it isn't banned yet. So why should we have a different view on snow cloak, when we're complaining about one mon?
The abilities that blaze and exca got weren't broken. But when given to them they became broken. IMO froslass is the same.
Why haven't we banned sand veil yet? Because the pokemon that have it aren't that great. That's why it isn't banned yet. So why should we have a different view on snow cloak, when we're complaining about one mon?
The abilities that blaze and exca got weren't broken. But when given to them they became broken. IMO froslass is the same.
The problem with a snow cloak ban is...what besides Frolass is remotely a promblem with it? Mamoswine maybe....but even so why nerf/outright ban some pokemon just for the sake of two?
Snow cloak and sand veil break evasion clause and should therefore be banned.
A move with 100 percent accuracy should always hit, it hardly matter not very many mons abuse those abilities they should still be banned.
It doesnt matter if that softbans a pokemon that is not broken even with the ability.
Thats just too bad.
It is an outrage that they are not banned at this stage anyway and anyone who even attempts to argue otherwise is just deluding themselves
Snow cloak/ Sand veil: BAN
A move with 100 percent accuracy should always hit, it hardly matter not very many mons abuse those abilities they should still be banned.
It doesnt matter if that softbans a pokemon that is not broken even with the ability.
Thats just too bad.
It is an outrage that they are not banned at this stage anyway and anyone who even attempts to argue otherwise is just deluding themselves
Snow cloak/ Sand veil: BAN
It is funny to see ppl miss frosslass even with the new drop downs, she stills remains on top as being the best hail abuser. It really does sound like Froslass is the only culprit for snow cloak but I guess we have to stick to our "principles" when it could be just as easy to ban froslass
@Razza last time I checked, the evasion clause bans MOVES and ITEMS that raise evasion. Nothing about abilities there. Therefor it does not break the clause. You can not argue this. Now if you want to add them too the clause that is a different story, as it is atm they are fine by its ruling.
Edit:
Is it not our principle to do the simplest bans and as few as possible? Therefor banning Froslass be sticking too them anyways?
Edit:
Is it not our principle to do the simplest bans and as few as possible? Therefor banning Froslass be sticking too them anyways?
The only thing that breaks snow cloak/sand veil is Froslass. The easiest (and probably best) way would be to just ban Froslass. It would just be dumb to destroy what makes some of the blizzspammers and cacturne/gligar viable in the metagame just because there is only ONE SC/SV poke that is hard to deal with.
Also, I'll ask again: How exactly does abomasnow break hail? It's just a weather inducer that can actually do something.
Also, I'll ask again: How exactly does abomasnow break hail? It's just a weather inducer that can actually do something.
Focus
Ubers Tester Extraordinaire
Um, no they don't. Evasion Clause currently bans Double Team, Minimize, BrightPowder, and Lax Incense. As far as I can tell, the spirit of Evasion Clause as it exists is to prevent evasion boosts from stacking on one another, as in using Minimize three times or giving a certain pokemon with Sand Veil that was moved to Ubers BrightPowder thus banning it from every tier whether or not that item is even remotely good (sorry, but I just cannot get behind the adding of BrightPowder to Evasion Clause). Regardless, all that Sand Veil and Snow Cloak do is give a flat 20% increase in evasion (or drop the opponent's accuracy by 20% if you prefer). It is ridiculous to say that something breaks Evasion Clause when it very clearly does not.
It is a shame that No Guard does not have better distribution, but since when did anyone declare that a move with 100 acc must always hit no matter what? For that matter, why would Game Freak even include evasion and accuracy, and not make all 100 acc moves perfect accuracy moves? Because those moves are not inherently meant to always hit. Might as well add accuracy-reducing moves, paralysis, and flinching to the things you want to ban. They also can prevent 100 acc moves to fail.
It is not like I particularly have anything against soft bans, but in this case there are several ways to go about banning something. We could do as you suggest and ban Snow Cloak itself, we could ban Snow Warning, we could ban a combination of Snow Warning and hail abuser/Snow Cloak, or we could ban the individual hail abuser(s). Each one of these options has its advantages and disadvantages, and it mostly depends on whether your philosophy on banning is comprehensiveness or minimalism.
If there is one thing I dislike, it is a ban based on "principle" rather than necessity. There is no good reason to ban Sand Veil atm, especially now that Hippowdon bit the dust (no pun intended [jeez...]). Nothing about sand is a problem. Snow Cloak is not even the problem. Froslass in permanent hail is. Glaceon and Mamoswine are good pokemon, but what sets Froslass apart from the pack is the way in which it suddenly is in complete control of the game if the opponent misses just once. The world is usually not over if you miss once against a Mamoswine or Glaceon, and odds are high that you will not miss at all. If you miss, usually the most they will do is attack again. Froslass can really screw your team over with Substitute, Spikes, and Thunder Wave. If anything, I would vote to ban Froslass, not a conditional ability.
Edit: Does it count as ninja-ing if it was more than an hour ago?
I'm wondering when those arguments about SC/SV users being broken rather than the ability will stop, since they are irrelevant in the case of an evasion clause extension.
How does a weather inducer break the weather? Have you been here longer than 5 days? Hippowdon was banned for "being a weather inducer that can actually do something".
This has been addressed at least 50,000 times already. The difference between Evasion abilities and accuracy-reducing moves, paralysis, and flinching is that the abilities are passive effects that the opposing player has no control over. It doesn't require you to land a Thunder Wave or to use your turn attacking, and it can't be avoided by switching. Accuracy is a great case in point of how our evasion clause already incorporates this logic. Tell me, why are evasion boosting moves banned when accuracy lowering moves are not?
And yeah, we get that SC/SV are not broken in a vacuum (Mewtwo isn't either). I don't get why people think losing to Froslass because of misshax is unfair but if you miss a Cacturne and lose a pokemon that's all skill because "cacturne is so rare and novel". I understand luck is part of the game but in most cases it's about weighing out risks and rewards, something that takes strategy. When you make it a passive effect it no longer has an effect on the play and just acts to randomize the outcome of the game.
Well man.. Hippopotas can also do something, just not AS good as hippowdon. Does that mean it's OP? Theres a huge difference in the uses of Hippowdon and Abomasnow. Hippo is one of the best phsysical walls in the entire game and it could just wall so many pokes in UU it's rediculous. (No need to elaborate further here, you all know the other reasons why it was banned)
However, Abomasnow is nowhere near as bulky. Walling extremely few sets in the metagame. The leech seed set is very underwhelming, and pretty much outclassed by Whimsicott and shaymin. The scarf/band sets blows. Great coveredge, but lack of power. The sash set has a suprise factor, but it's a waste if your opponent happen to carry a baby hippo.
What I am trying to say here is that abomasnow has a use in the tier, but something much inferrior to hippowdons role. In most cases abomasnow will be deadweight and only used for 1 or 2 turns (just like hippopotas). I don't see how the few uses he have makes him OP. Should we force everyone to use Snover and make sand the only weather with a inducer that can "do something"?
Also, no reason to treat the low posters like a nobody. Just because I do not post much on the forums, doesn't mean I'm new here. I've had an average of about 3 hours a day on the server since early september. (not saying that it's better than anyone else here, nor that I'm a veteran or anything. Just saying that I am not unexperienced in the current metagames.)
nooblikeaboon
Banned deucer.
Just wondering: If you decide to ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak under the Evasion Cluase wont that ban the pokemon in all tiers (if they dont have a 2nd ability)? Because it seems kinda inconsistent if you only apply the ban to the UU tier when the effects and therefore the reasoning for the ban dont change in OU/Ubers.
And a 'Snow Cloak + Hail on same team'-Ban is inconsistent in the same way because the ability still gets activated if you fight with your Froslass against a Hailteam. You may argue now that the Froslassplayer didnt intend to abuse the ability but the effects still remain the same. If you want to ban Evasion-abilities for being uncompetitive you should apply consistent rules.
Should we then also go back and ban these 'uncompetitive' abilites in 4th gen? Banish Gliscor, etc. pp.?
To be honest i think that would be the wrong approach because we would lose many usable but not necessarily overpowered Mons.
(And another question: In most cases if a player has to chose between 2 abilites they decide against the evasion-ability if the other ability offers something usable. See: Gliscor, Glaceon in this Gen.)
And a 'Snow Cloak + Hail on same team'-Ban is inconsistent in the same way because the ability still gets activated if you fight with your Froslass against a Hailteam. You may argue now that the Froslassplayer didnt intend to abuse the ability but the effects still remain the same. If you want to ban Evasion-abilities for being uncompetitive you should apply consistent rules.
Should we then also go back and ban these 'uncompetitive' abilites in 4th gen? Banish Gliscor, etc. pp.?
To be honest i think that would be the wrong approach because we would lose many usable but not necessarily overpowered Mons.
(And another question: In most cases if a player has to chose between 2 abilites they decide against the evasion-ability if the other ability offers something usable. See: Gliscor, Glaceon in this Gen.)
You can't think of Pokemon so one-dimensionally. There are other aspects that make a Pokemon good besides HP, Def, and SpD. This is like saying "Mewtwo isn't as bulky as Lugia, so Mewtwo can't be broken" and I'm sure you wouldn't debate that Mewtwo is indeed broken. Hopefully this gives you some perspective on how walling is not everything. Offensive power can be even more dangerous.
With this in mind, I'm unsure if you've ever faced an Abomasnow. The Leech Seed set isn't really a "Leech Seed" set as much as it is a Blizzard abuser with Leech Seed to bypass special walls. You also didn't mention the ever common Ice Shard / Protect / Blizzard / Wood Hammer set. If you've faced these sets you would definitely not be talking them down......
I'm sure most people will agree that Abomsnow's role on a hail team is equal to or better than Hippowdon's former role on a sandstorm team, but sandstorm teams were broken and hail teams were not.Amire said:
I knew you'd been around longer than 5 days (I can see join dates/post history), but from your post it didn't seem like you had payed attention to the last couple months of us dealing with Hippowdon. Your post did not make sense when considering what happened with Hippowdon. Your justification for not banning it was literally just used as justification for banning. Doesn't that tell you something is out of place? Sorry if I seemed frustrated but we, as a community, have been putting quite a bit of time into justifying bans. To have that justification being ignored sort of degrades the whole idea of justification altogether.Amire said:
well I got trolled by my own Walrein set yesterday while laddering. Actually, I got trolled by my own team lol. I should seriously stop sharing team ideas with everyone and keep things to myself.
But anyways with proper support Walrein can become a real annoyer on a hail team. Making a full stall team like in DPP isn't the most effective strategy, keep it balanced.
But anyways with proper support Walrein can become a real annoyer on a hail team. Making a full stall team like in DPP isn't the most effective strategy, keep it balanced.
It doesn't matter that not every pokemon with Sand Veil/Snow Cloak can abuse it. Delibird wouldn't be broken with Double Team, does that mean we should allow that mon to use it?
Hail is really good. I was laddering today and was winning with little effort with hail. It gets murdered by Stealth Rock and strong special walls, so pack something like Machamp if you're going to use it. Machamp also beats Froslass which is cool, and with Substitute variants, if you get a sub up, something will die!
Hail isn't as annoying as sand was. You can still make a quick team and start tearing things apart but Aboma and hail doesn't have the same Heavy Offense synergy as Sand with Hippo did. I'm not saying it isn't broken, the fact that machamp is one of the few definite checks to hail does the "not broken" statement no justice whatsoever.
Bolded sentence pretty much describes it. I pack 3 counters to Froslass on one of my teams and it can still lose to it. Not just one pokemon, but the entire freaking team. I pack the same amount of counters to Cacturne and I end up losing at MOST 1 pokemon. There is a definative difference in the ways games play out, cause there is a difference in the pokemon. That would be like saying "Kyogre is only good because of drizzle". Which is a lie. Kyogre is good because he has a base 150 SpAtk stat, Water Spout, Hydro Pump, AND drizzle. Drizzle isn't the broken part, the combination of everything about the pokemon is what breaks it.
Hail teams tend to have pretty significant holes in what they can cover, just as Sand teams did. On the other hand, the sheer number of things that can tear up a Hail team without being threatened is much less than the number of things that could tear up a Sand team. Two of the Pokemon I've been experimenting with on my anti-Hail teams are Swords Dance Empoleon (Adamant, Leftovers, near max speed, SD/Aqua Jet/Drill Peck/Earthquake) and Swords Dance Gallade (Adamant, Leftovers, SD/Drain Punch/Shadow Sneak/Leaf Blade). There isn't a whole lot a Hail team can do to stop either one--Empoleon in particular has performed excellently so far. One of my complaints about the UU metagame the last period or two is that it seems to be that hardly anyone is even trying to stop the Weather stuff--the good players are using it, the bad players are failing to stop it. How will we ever determine the relative power of Hail if no one is really TRYING to anti-metagame Hail? Stop complaining, start innovating.
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