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The Everything NFL Thread: 2011-2012 Season (plus free agency I guess)
- Thread starter WaterBomb
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It may seem a bit hypocritical, as I am against the length of the suspension as well. Regardless, I still think it's a very inappropriate move on Payton's part to appeal the suspension, even if it was too harsh. I will be astonished if Goodell shortens the suspension.
AR, they are as different as people think, or at least somewhat different as I can't exactly speak for the people. He's not going to be running plays from the shotgun every play in the NFL, and that is already different enough. I will admit to not watching many Baylor games this season, and it might be presumptuous to assume so, but almost every spread offense runs a majority (3/4+?) of their plays from the shotgun. Transitioning from that to running half your plays from under center takes time. Sometimes, coordinators cater their offense to suit the passer; just last year, Carolina ran some funky styles (lots of different shotgun sets, some pistol iirc) that allowed them to work with Cam's strengths (part of Carolina's reasoning was the lack of the offseason though). Denver completely reworked their offense to cater to He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.
I don't exactly see Washington doing the same thing, but it's possible. Usually, they have to change the quarterback to work with the system. Reads from under center take a lot of practice to get down properly. Think of a Madden game; as the player, you can see the entire field for passing plays and see exactly what is developing. A 5 step, play action pass is nothing as you're not actually looking at the QB/RB. But if you were to, say, close your eyes for the middle of that, then suddenly have to open them and find an open receiver, it tends to be rather difficult. The shotgun caters to the former; once the quarterback has the ball, he's far enough back to have excellent vision of the field. During passes from under center, it's much more difficult to see what's happening until your feet are set and you have a good pocket to pass in. Regardless of the skill of the player, this takes time to develop.
I'm rambling a tad at this point, thanks for putting up with it :adam:
AR, they are as different as people think, or at least somewhat different as I can't exactly speak for the people. He's not going to be running plays from the shotgun every play in the NFL, and that is already different enough. I will admit to not watching many Baylor games this season, and it might be presumptuous to assume so, but almost every spread offense runs a majority (3/4+?) of their plays from the shotgun. Transitioning from that to running half your plays from under center takes time. Sometimes, coordinators cater their offense to suit the passer; just last year, Carolina ran some funky styles (lots of different shotgun sets, some pistol iirc) that allowed them to work with Cam's strengths (part of Carolina's reasoning was the lack of the offseason though). Denver completely reworked their offense to cater to He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named.
I don't exactly see Washington doing the same thing, but it's possible. Usually, they have to change the quarterback to work with the system. Reads from under center take a lot of practice to get down properly. Think of a Madden game; as the player, you can see the entire field for passing plays and see exactly what is developing. A 5 step, play action pass is nothing as you're not actually looking at the QB/RB. But if you were to, say, close your eyes for the middle of that, then suddenly have to open them and find an open receiver, it tends to be rather difficult. The shotgun caters to the former; once the quarterback has the ball, he's far enough back to have excellent vision of the field. During passes from under center, it's much more difficult to see what's happening until your feet are set and you have a good pocket to pass in. Regardless of the skill of the player, this takes time to develop.
I'm rambling a tad at this point, thanks for putting up with it :adam:
. The only recent examples I can think of are Drew Brees (not a bust), Alex Smith (bust), Vince Young (bust), Joe Flacco (in the middle), Josh Freeman (too early), Sam Bradford (too early), and Blaine Gabbert (too early).
Alex Smith got drafted by a bad team. Which is the number one reason why most first overall picks in recent years havent been succesful. Peyton Manning is the ONLY exception to this. Eli was drafted by a bad team but traded to a relatively good team that just had an uncharacteristically bad year. David Carr is the best example of this. I think he is better than a lot of current starting qbs, just he went through hell in Texas. Big Ben went into a good team(so did Rodgers ) and had time to develop better. So i don't think Alex was a bust... Also, havent you heard Flacco is one of the top five quaterbacks... Though he might pull an Eli and throw for 5000 yards next season.
And yeh, i agree with you. Payton should man up and take the punishment. He is my least favorite coach and i borderlike dislike him in general. His dumb smirk is what gets me. And now that hes appealing his punishment i just imagine him with that smirk.
I thought I read somewhere on espn that most likely Goodell won't shorten it and Payton was meeting with him to discuss what he can or can't do under his suspension, or something like that.
The question is, how much time? Especially given that Baylor runs more pro sets than most spread offenses (and dropped back from under center a lot under a different coach as a freshman, AND has been specifically practicing under-center dropbacks)? You seem to think it'll take multiple years, while I'd say it'll take a training camp and a preseason.
Incidentally, approximately 100% of first overall picks are drafted by bad teams. :happybrain:
WaterBomb Newton's season was by far the best rookie season of all time. People have two main ignorant concerns, the first that it did not create enough wins, the second that those rushing touchdowns "could have just gone to someone else". Wins are a variable of the team, and while elite quarterbacks usually have an impact on that, it can take several years to become established as systems are learned/established, as players are brought in who actually suit the roles, et cetera. I do not even care that he improved a 1-15 team or whatever to 6-10, that is not a great improvement, I just do not care about the total at all. This is at least an argument, the second thing is sheer ignorant bullshit - he added 200 points to a team that blew the season before. That is fucking incredible composure and results from a rookie.
Cam's season was amazing for ANY QB and completely unheard of for a rookie. End of story.
You mean the same Peyton Manning that wen't 3-13 his first season?
You mean the same Peyton Manning that wen't 3-13 his first season?
lol Brock Osweiler
actually, if the Browns don't get obsessed over the whole 'nfl is a passing league' and value Ryan Tannehill or Justin Blackmon over T-Rich, draft T-Rich, and then draft a WR (a position with a lot more depth in this draft) @ #22 then I think they'll be sold at the skill positions on their Offense. Invest in an Offensive guard in round 2 and then find some defensive projects in the later rounds. I think Colt Mccoy has the potential to be a 'top 20' quarterback but he'll need a solid running game to lean on and he'll also need more than just greg little and benjamin watson to throw to.
I'd lol ALOT if they select tannehill
actually, if the Browns don't get obsessed over the whole 'nfl is a passing league' and value Ryan Tannehill or Justin Blackmon over T-Rich, draft T-Rich, and then draft a WR (a position with a lot more depth in this draft) @ #22 then I think they'll be sold at the skill positions on their Offense. Invest in an Offensive guard in round 2 and then find some defensive projects in the later rounds. I think Colt Mccoy has the potential to be a 'top 20' quarterback but he'll need a solid running game to lean on and he'll also need more than just greg little and benjamin watson to throw to.
I'd lol ALOT if they select tannehill
Rofl, they're the worst team in their division. My Ravens are still all in their prime or about to enter it barring Lewis and Reed, the Bengals have a ridiculous amount of picks and some good young talent and as much as I'd cream myself to the thought of the Steelers coming last, they still have a fearsome defense and have a nose for making the playoffs. I'm tired of your trolling.
Am i the only one in love with Brandon Weeden? Seriously, i think hes the best quaterback in this draft other than Luck(as luck is a younger more talented version). I think the age thing is being completely blown out of proportion. It's not that bad seriously. Didn't Rodgers start when he was like 26? I dont see why he isnt more hyped.
Anyways, mark my words. Brandon Weeden will be the second best qb out of this draft and i expect him to have a great career. Also, what are the names of those two undersized qb prospects?
You know what i meant.
Didn't the Colts make it to the playoffs the very next season? I just meant that Peyton had a huge impact on that team.
Fuck Gregg Williams. And yes lol at me getting angry at him only after his players tried to hurt our offense. People on ESPN are saying that "the public doesn't understand that that is how coaches pump up their players". They are clearly mistaken. To pump up your defense, you should say things like "we're gonna shut this player down and dominate the line of scrimmage" rather than "we're gonna kill that fucker and we're gonna kill that fucker who is his backup".
Meh I dunno, I'm a Niners fan but to me, his whole spiel was nothing worse that what other coaches tell their teams I bet; dunno what our Niner guy says to Defense, but if it's not something along those lines (abet probably in a slightly nicer version) I'd be disappointed. Seriously, football isn't meant to be nice, I'd much rather someone say "kill the fucker" to get their point across than "shut down X".
Besides, Saints still sucked balls on Defense and still lost, so either way, meh. Obviously the bounty system wasn't doing its job if they still ranked sucky in defense throughout his years.
Besides, Saints still sucked balls on Defense and still lost, so either way, meh. Obviously the bounty system wasn't doing its job if they still ranked sucky in defense throughout his years.
Before dubby gets all high and mighty about his innocent 49ers, i'd like to agree with shinryu.
What are you talking about? What the Saints were doing was not trying to be more "efficient" by getting their players to perform better. They were fucking cheating by trying to win by injuring the other teams players, not stopping them. In fact, they could have played that badly because they relied too much on trying to injure players instead of acting like an actual defense. Alex Smith looked like a god in that game and it may have to do with the fact that their defense was focused on going too far instead of actually playing.
Either way, i'm just glad it was the 49ers who played the Saints.. Although that article londie provided pisses me off a little.
that article comes from a Giants website so I'm inclined to believe it's a bit sensationalized in their favor...
I'm also with Shinryu in that I think people are exaggerating the guy's speech a bit. To me it sounded just like a regular coach's "fire 'em up" speech through the use of violent euphemisms. I mean, I don't think he flat out said "your goal is to injure X player and/or end their career".
I'm also with Shinryu in that I think people are exaggerating the guy's speech a bit. To me it sounded just like a regular coach's "fire 'em up" speech through the use of violent euphemisms. I mean, I don't think he flat out said "your goal is to injure X player and/or end their career".
He says Kill Frank Gore's head, hit Alex Smith in the chin, hit the other players in the head when they are in a pile, talking about William's concussion and to target his head, and to target Crabtree's ACL. I'm sorry, but if you think that's a regular coach's "fire 'em up" speech, then there is something really wrong with. Telling your players to go injure or target other players injuries is just plain disgusting.
"This is how you gain respect in the NFL." This is what pissed me off the most.
"This is how you gain respect in the NFL." This is what pissed me off the most.
Some of the speech may have been blown out of proportion a little, but not all of it. "Kill the head and the body dies" is a common phrase for these kinds of situations; most coaches would say it as in "Don't let Gore get yards, and the 49ers can't do anything." Hitting Smith in the chin? I don't think that's too bad either; any defensive coach will want their players to hit the opponents "where it hurts." The difference, of course, is the figurative "where it hurts" and the literal "where it hurts" in my opinion. Targeting players' recent injuries? Especially concussions? That is way beyond the line.
After this tape, I no longer believe that the players should be punished at all for this. Williams has to take his coaching and get the fuck out of the league - the players should be the biggest advocate of anyone on this! If Payton or Loomis knew the degree of this, they should be sent packing for a year as well, and in my opinion the Saints should have/should eventually fire them. I don't even care that they are a rival team; this entire story just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Does this happen around the league? The simple answer is... kind of. No coach is going to be stupid enough to literally give bounties after this, which is an improvement at the very least. However, there is next to nothing the league will be able to do to stop players or coaches to coach hard hits. Unless they remove injury reports, there's no way to stop coaches or players from trying to take advantage of opponent's injuries.
Can we stop with the "It's football" argument though? Players are taught in fucking little league to treat opponents with respect, and going out of your way to attempt to harm your opponent is anything but respect.
I guess I don't really know the answer to this one either. Multiple years seems way too long, but I don't particularly feel like one off/preseason will be enough either. My guess is probably around half a season and no less, but I've been wrong many times before and will be wrong many times more
The one problem I have with Cam (relatively minor I guess) is that we'll never know how much his stats were inflated by the lack of an offseason. This obviously hurt passing defenses more than any other parts of the sport; I do not have monthly league numbers or anything of the sort, but I'd be willing to bet that passing yardage/game was significantly less in the 2nd half of the season than in the 1st half. Cam is no exception; he passed for 700 fewer yards in the second half, and in his final 6 games went over 250 passing yards just once.
Is the second point significant, though? Seemingly, Cam's relatively unique abilities make him their #1 threat within the 5 yard line, so why would they just hand the ball to someone else? Newton had only ~25% more red zone carries than Stewart/Williams combined, and had 3 more touchdowns (14 to 11 combined). That's about equally efficient. I'm not sure if these numbers would significantly change if you move within the 10 yard line or the 5 yard line, though. When the guys that are paid to run are equally efficient as the guy paid to pass, yet the latter gets the ball over and over anyway, doesn't that tend to inflate his stats a little bit?
Again, these problems are relatively minor. Even if you scale back his yardage and take away some touchdowns, he still *probably* had the best rookie season of all time. If he can continue at the same pace next year, it will be considered an improvement in my book because of the circumstances at the beginning of this year.
After this tape, I no longer believe that the players should be punished at all for this. Williams has to take his coaching and get the fuck out of the league - the players should be the biggest advocate of anyone on this! If Payton or Loomis knew the degree of this, they should be sent packing for a year as well, and in my opinion the Saints should have/should eventually fire them. I don't even care that they are a rival team; this entire story just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Does this happen around the league? The simple answer is... kind of. No coach is going to be stupid enough to literally give bounties after this, which is an improvement at the very least. However, there is next to nothing the league will be able to do to stop players or coaches to coach hard hits. Unless they remove injury reports, there's no way to stop coaches or players from trying to take advantage of opponent's injuries.
Can we stop with the "It's football" argument though? Players are taught in fucking little league to treat opponents with respect, and going out of your way to attempt to harm your opponent is anything but respect.
I guess I don't really know the answer to this one either. Multiple years seems way too long, but I don't particularly feel like one off/preseason will be enough either. My guess is probably around half a season and no less, but I've been wrong many times before and will be wrong many times more
The one problem I have with Cam (relatively minor I guess) is that we'll never know how much his stats were inflated by the lack of an offseason. This obviously hurt passing defenses more than any other parts of the sport; I do not have monthly league numbers or anything of the sort, but I'd be willing to bet that passing yardage/game was significantly less in the 2nd half of the season than in the 1st half. Cam is no exception; he passed for 700 fewer yards in the second half, and in his final 6 games went over 250 passing yards just once.
Is the second point significant, though? Seemingly, Cam's relatively unique abilities make him their #1 threat within the 5 yard line, so why would they just hand the ball to someone else? Newton had only ~25% more red zone carries than Stewart/Williams combined, and had 3 more touchdowns (14 to 11 combined). That's about equally efficient. I'm not sure if these numbers would significantly change if you move within the 10 yard line or the 5 yard line, though. When the guys that are paid to run are equally efficient as the guy paid to pass, yet the latter gets the ball over and over anyway, doesn't that tend to inflate his stats a little bit?
Again, these problems are relatively minor. Even if you scale back his yardage and take away some touchdowns, he still *probably* had the best rookie season of all time. If he can continue at the same pace next year, it will be considered an improvement in my book because of the circumstances at the beginning of this year.
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