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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??
- Thread starter Thorns
- Start date
Bullet Time's "Negligible Damage" is a myth. And it's a pretty odd myth, seeing as it is the third most damaging ability in the game (and since Rammus doesn't build AP, even that's easy to fix). It's an AoE, you have to use it like one. When you catch 3-5 of the enemy team in it the damage outstrips your aa while having almost 3 times the range. Your tank line sets up, you snipe away a large portion of the enemy team's HP, then move in and clean up because you are fast enough to catch them.
I'm pretty sure when you say "third most damaging ability" it's referring to the early-mid game (it has a pretty high base) and it's also assuming you're hitting all 5 champions.
Of course. And I assume you know that "most" champs run armor seals?
15ArmPen -13 ArmSeals. So yea. ArmPen just isn't worth it..
The thing is with BulletTime and those other "high damage ults" is that it is unlikely you will get full damage out of them. BulletTime is easy to dodge after 2-3 waves assuming best case scenario for MissFortune.
On another note, I run Panth mid every now and then.. and It's common that I get FB and have an additional 3-4 kills on top of that by 20 minutes but I fall off sooo hard lategame. I can't seem to find a good build order for him what so ever..
That is two (2) extra armor penetration going against their base armor, as well as the mastery, as opposed to just the mastery. You are forgetting that armor penetration reds/quints were easily the most popular until the 10% armor penetration mastery, and even now they still do more damage to champions while flat ad is used almost solely for last hitting.
No, I'm referring to Level 3 when hitting 1 champion. 1000 with a 3.6 AD ratio (and with a higher DPS than others except for Nunu).
No the thing is that people suck at positioning and aiming. BulletTime has a "sweet spot" that will at least dock the person in it with 4 waves, but proper timing nets a group meaning that some will jump out at 4 and some will take longer in the confusion.
With proper teamwork you are coordinating BulletTime with your team's CC, and at least 2 of the opponents should be taking the full damage.
With proper positioning, you are totally safe the whole time as you have longer range than even Xerath (this means don't run in front of enemy team, get killed, then bitch about how her ult roots you).
And finally it is pure DPS, so as soon as enough opponents leave that it isn't efficient damage you simply cancel it into autoattacks.
You're right, Ults like Nunu's and MF's are hard to get the most out of. But with practice it is worth it.
I usually jungle panth just because there are better carries, especially for solo queue, but late game panth is very underrated imo. Late game panth really has two jobs, peeling for your ad and to a lesser extent ap carry, and assassinating the other teams AD carry if possible.
Note I jungle so when you buy boots will be different but this is the build I use most of the time Dorans>Boots 1>Dorans>Boots2>phage>(BF sword if im doing well)>giants belt>atmas>frozen mallet. Most of my games end at that point, but depending on how things are going I'd either finish Bloodthirster, get negatron and build towards force of nature or QSS in some rare cases, or get last whisper if they have a lot of armor.
I jungle though so I would usually get the BF sword midgame if I were mid.
Note I jungle so when you buy boots will be different but this is the build I use most of the time Dorans>Boots 1>Dorans>Boots2>phage>(BF sword if im doing well)>giants belt>atmas>frozen mallet. Most of my games end at that point, but depending on how things are going I'd either finish Bloodthirster, get negatron and build towards force of nature or QSS in some rare cases, or get last whisper if they have a lot of armor.
I jungle though so I would usually get the BF sword midgame if I were mid.
arpen vs ad is personal preference - if you feel like you prefer more last hitting take ad, if you want more champion damage take arpen. i think some of the professional players run a mixture of 6 arpen/3 ad or something similar, just check their rune pages. i personally prefer ad but i don't play ad carries all that often. ad is just more helpful to top laners since a good portion of their damage is ability based (Riven, Renekton, etc) and i play top lane.
You got me to do it... posting the numbers I ran on late game AP damage in comparison to (now old) Ryze. I've said before that Ryze falls off late game compared to other APs, so I ran calcs for just the beginning of late game (Which I view as the time where core builds are complete, which is about 10k gold for most every AP give or take 100 gold in some cases). I went with a 10 second time frame to give Ryze a fair shake since he's not bursty like most AP's and he can get off his full combo and then some. I gave everyone Blue Buff, since AP's get Blue Buff (Even gave Vlad Blue Buff, cry about it if you want to).
First off, here's a Ryze with a Tear of the Goddess (Fully Stacked), Mercury Treads, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart and Will of the Ancients will have 433 damage on his Q, 395.3 damage on his W, and 130 damage on each bounce of his E. His combo gets 8 Q's, 3 W's and 2 E's off in ten seconds.
So it comes out like this:
Ryze (Tear, Mercury Treads, Banshee's, Frozen, WotA):
x8 Q's (433) = 3463
x3 W's (396.3) = 1186
x2 E's (130 * 3) = 780
Total Possible Damage:
3463 + 1186 + 780 = 5869
Next I did the numbers on Anivia.
Anivia (Archangel's Staff (Fully stacked), Sorcerer's Shoes/any boots, Rabadon's Death Cap, Void Staff) (Total AP 480)
x2 Q's (840) = 1680
x3 E's (830) = 2490
R 280 Damage per Tick
Total Possible Damage:
1680 + 2490 + 2800 = 6970
From Q and E alone you're getting 4170 and to start doing more damage then Ryze at the same point in the game one would need to stand in Anivia's ult for 6 seconds. You may scoff at this but when she get two stuns off and can wall your escape, you stand in it for quite a while
Ahri (Rod of Ages, Boots of Lucidity, Rabadons, Void Staff) (Total AP 448)
x3 Q's (576) = 1727
x4 W's (660) = 2640
x2 E's (337) = 674
x3 R's (314) = 942
Total Possible Damage:
1727 + 2640 + 674 + 942 = 5983
Ahri does more Damage than Ryze even at 0 MR, let alone that 863.5 of her damage is True, and the fact that she is the most Mobile AP in the game making her very powerful late game. However, the argument can be made that her damage is skillshots/non-targetable, and those can be dodged/miss whereas Ryze's are all targets. Either, way, I'm not going to get in an argument that one champs late game is inherently better because they're easier to use, just that his late game isn't his strongest point, so you can take these numbers or leave them.
Swain (Rod of Ages, Sorcerer's Shoes, Rabadon's, WotA) (Total AP 462)
x2 Q's (E empowered) (805) = 1610
x2 W's (E Empowered) (676) = 1352
x2 E's (Empowered by itself... it's weird) (725) = 1451
x7 R's (E Empowered) (219) = 1533
x3 R's (182) = 546
Total Possible Damage:
1610 + 1352 + 1451 + 1533 + 546 = 6492
So here we have a champion who has strong Team Fight Sustain like Ryze late game, and is dealing MUCH more Damage in actual team fights. For example, this is Swain's Total Possible Single Target Damage. If there were three targets around him his ult would be dealing an extra 3640 total damage in the fight, all while healing him for 30% of the damage dealt.
This is why I found the comments that "Swain has no late game" rather hilarious, because he has one of the single most powerful late games in the game, not only by virtue of raw damage, but also by virtue of team fight sustain.
Vladimir (WotA, Sorc Shoes, Hextech Reveolver, Rabadon's, Void Staff) (Total AP 485)
x2 Q (521) = 1042
x2 Q (R Empowered) = 1167
x1 W (R Empowered) = 503
x1 E (No Stacks) = 398
x1 E (1 Stack) = 443
x1 E (2 Stacks R Empowered) = 547
x1 E (3 Stacks R Empowered) = 597
x1 R = 690
Total Possible Damage:
1042 + 1167 + 503 + 398 + 443 + 547 + 597 + 690 = 5387
Yeah. I wasn't expecting this one either. Core Build complete and he's not doing that much damage (Less then Annie in the same time frame). His main virtue lies in his sustain and natural tankiness from the passive. Also, I have a feeling that a 6 item Vlad will start being more on par with everyone else, but didn't run the calcs. Still, I like his late game more than Ryze, because that ult Increases EVERYONE's damage by 12% which is more powerful (in my personal onion) than Ryze's 50 extra DPS and extra tankiness. You can say it's not as effective if you want, I won't argue.
Cassiopeia (WotA, Boots, Rabadon's, Rylai's)
x4 Q's (627) = 2508
x10 W Ticks (130) = 1302
x20 E's (429) = 8574
x1 R = 710
Total Possible Damage:
2508 + 1302 + 8574 + 710 = 13094
Yeah. While not nearly as Tanky as Ryze is late game, she's more than twice his Damage Potential. And if you keep the minimal amount of poisons on for ten seconds to keep the E cooldown low, she's STILL twice Ryze's Damage Potential. Not to mention AoE CC ult utility for team fights. Definitely a stronger late game.
Karthus (Rod of Ages, Boots, Rabadon's, Void Staff)
x13 Q (509) = 6614
x10 Ticks E (222) = 2220
Total Possible Single Target Damage:
6614 + 2220 = 8834
Total Possible AoE Damage:
(254 * targets hit) * 9 + (Total Ticks on all targets * 222) + (818 * 5) = A lot. Too many arbitrary variables but you get the idea.
Karthus has no need to be super tanky or sustainy since his entire purpose is to die in the middle of a fight and deal tons of AoE damage and fire his ult off to deal 4090 damage to an entire team, plus the damage he deals before he dies in the fight, and the damage his E deals while dead. Just overall a better late game then Ryze since he naturally has shorter cooldowns better AoE and doesn't have to.
Kog Maw (Archangel's (Fully Stacked), boots, Rabadon's, Void Staff) (Total AP 472)
x2 Q's (590) = 1180
x2 E's (590) = 1180
x13 R's (542) = 7041
Total Possible Damage:
1180 + 1180 + 7041 = 9301
AP Kog here showing how powerful he is by dealing more damage than many of the current AP carries with his ult alone at a considerable distance, which mitigates how squishy he is. This calculation also does not mention the 10% of your max health his 710 range Auto Attacks are dealing, and with the passive Attack Speed buff on his Q, he hits you around 12 times (if I calculate AS per level scaling correctly). Powerful pre-fight Poke Damage, a ton of DPS in team fights all while staying relatively safe.
Veigar (DFG, Boots, Rabadon's, Void Staff + 75 Q Farms) (Total AP 536)
x5 Q's (582) = 2910
x2 W's (856) = 1712
R = 1143
Total Possible Damage
2910 + 1712 + 1143 = 5765 + 47.5% of one target's current health
King of Single Target Burst, and he scales into late game infinitely with that Q. You'd actually probably have more than 75 Q farms for champ kills and if you dedicated mid game to farming it. AoE Stun and the ability to completely kill one member of your team in a full combo. Not to mention that I didn't even factor in if Veigar used his ult on an AP champion. I like his late game more than Ryze, but you can go ahead and dislike him if you want. It's not a big deal to me.
Kennen (WotA, Boots, Rabadon's, Zhonya's) (Total AP 462)
x4 Q's (582) = 2326
x3 W's (439) = 1317
x3 E's (522) = 1566
Max Ult per Target = 1184
Total Possible Damage
2326 + 1317 + 1566 + 1184 = 6393
Kennen does straight up more damage for an Armor and MR buff that put his defensive stats on par with Ryze (that has a downtime of half a second when armed with Blue Buff) while also having a 2 second stasis. Further, he has more utility and mobility with his Passive Stun and E.
So these are all mage champions that are popular that have better late games than Ryze (Albeit Swain and Vlad go top Lane)
Another reason why Ryze is not as powerful in comparison to other Late Game AP carries, is because the only damage multiplication he gets has already been applied at this point in the game, with his max CDR. He can get a Void Staff and deal more damage, but that's money not being spent on tankiness, for an item that is simply more effective on AP Champions than it is on Ryze. Not to mention, that some AP's already have it and are doing more damage than him regardless, so he'd only buying it would only be an attempt to catch up. Further, the AP carries can increase their possible damage even further by getting a CDR item like Morello's Evil Tome, or Deathfire Grasp late game, which would increase their over time DPS even further, while ALSO dealing more straight up burst damage.
If you want to argue that it's his tankiness that makes him powerful late game, then let's take a look. Ryze's "Tankiness" totals to 2283 HP 180 Armor and 105 MR. As far as tankiness goes, that's rather weak. The only thing that keeps him alive long enough for you to think he's really tanky is the Spell Vamp ultimate + WotA, which is interestingm since that's exactly what some people last night on IRC were calling a passive spell that didn't feel like it does much beyond continue his combo. Vlad, Kennen and Swain all get similarly tanky while in the case of the latter two, do much more damage. Anyways, if you really wanted to make him more of a true tank, you'd build something like a 6th item Warmog's or even a Rylai's, but again, these item buys on Ryze don't add anything to his damage, which will make his late game damage fall off harder in comparison to simply be tankier. This may seem like a benefit to you, but it means he can't invest in MPen which means a single MR item makes his damage fall off even harder, making him less of an overall threat.
TL;DR Maths. (Old) Ryze's late game fell off. His utility is lower than other Mages, does less damage, and in certain cases is not even that significantly stronger in terms of tankiness.
First off, here's a Ryze with a Tear of the Goddess (Fully Stacked), Mercury Treads, Banshee's Veil, Frozen Heart and Will of the Ancients will have 433 damage on his Q, 395.3 damage on his W, and 130 damage on each bounce of his E. His combo gets 8 Q's, 3 W's and 2 E's off in ten seconds.
So it comes out like this:
Ryze (Tear, Mercury Treads, Banshee's, Frozen, WotA):
x8 Q's (433) = 3463
x3 W's (396.3) = 1186
x2 E's (130 * 3) = 780
Total Possible Damage:
3463 + 1186 + 780 = 5869
Next I did the numbers on Anivia.
Anivia (Archangel's Staff (Fully stacked), Sorcerer's Shoes/any boots, Rabadon's Death Cap, Void Staff) (Total AP 480)
x2 Q's (840) = 1680
x3 E's (830) = 2490
R 280 Damage per Tick
Total Possible Damage:
1680 + 2490 + 2800 = 6970
From Q and E alone you're getting 4170 and to start doing more damage then Ryze at the same point in the game one would need to stand in Anivia's ult for 6 seconds. You may scoff at this but when she get two stuns off and can wall your escape, you stand in it for quite a while
Ahri (Rod of Ages, Boots of Lucidity, Rabadons, Void Staff) (Total AP 448)
x3 Q's (576) = 1727
x4 W's (660) = 2640
x2 E's (337) = 674
x3 R's (314) = 942
Total Possible Damage:
1727 + 2640 + 674 + 942 = 5983
Ahri does more Damage than Ryze even at 0 MR, let alone that 863.5 of her damage is True, and the fact that she is the most Mobile AP in the game making her very powerful late game. However, the argument can be made that her damage is skillshots/non-targetable, and those can be dodged/miss whereas Ryze's are all targets. Either, way, I'm not going to get in an argument that one champs late game is inherently better because they're easier to use, just that his late game isn't his strongest point, so you can take these numbers or leave them.
Swain (Rod of Ages, Sorcerer's Shoes, Rabadon's, WotA) (Total AP 462)
x2 Q's (E empowered) (805) = 1610
x2 W's (E Empowered) (676) = 1352
x2 E's (Empowered by itself... it's weird) (725) = 1451
x7 R's (E Empowered) (219) = 1533
x3 R's (182) = 546
Total Possible Damage:
1610 + 1352 + 1451 + 1533 + 546 = 6492
So here we have a champion who has strong Team Fight Sustain like Ryze late game, and is dealing MUCH more Damage in actual team fights. For example, this is Swain's Total Possible Single Target Damage. If there were three targets around him his ult would be dealing an extra 3640 total damage in the fight, all while healing him for 30% of the damage dealt.
This is why I found the comments that "Swain has no late game" rather hilarious, because he has one of the single most powerful late games in the game, not only by virtue of raw damage, but also by virtue of team fight sustain.
Vladimir (WotA, Sorc Shoes, Hextech Reveolver, Rabadon's, Void Staff) (Total AP 485)
x2 Q (521) = 1042
x2 Q (R Empowered) = 1167
x1 W (R Empowered) = 503
x1 E (No Stacks) = 398
x1 E (1 Stack) = 443
x1 E (2 Stacks R Empowered) = 547
x1 E (3 Stacks R Empowered) = 597
x1 R = 690
Total Possible Damage:
1042 + 1167 + 503 + 398 + 443 + 547 + 597 + 690 = 5387
Yeah. I wasn't expecting this one either. Core Build complete and he's not doing that much damage (Less then Annie in the same time frame). His main virtue lies in his sustain and natural tankiness from the passive. Also, I have a feeling that a 6 item Vlad will start being more on par with everyone else, but didn't run the calcs. Still, I like his late game more than Ryze, because that ult Increases EVERYONE's damage by 12% which is more powerful (in my personal onion) than Ryze's 50 extra DPS and extra tankiness. You can say it's not as effective if you want, I won't argue.
Cassiopeia (WotA, Boots, Rabadon's, Rylai's)
x4 Q's (627) = 2508
x10 W Ticks (130) = 1302
x20 E's (429) = 8574
x1 R = 710
Total Possible Damage:
2508 + 1302 + 8574 + 710 = 13094
Yeah. While not nearly as Tanky as Ryze is late game, she's more than twice his Damage Potential. And if you keep the minimal amount of poisons on for ten seconds to keep the E cooldown low, she's STILL twice Ryze's Damage Potential. Not to mention AoE CC ult utility for team fights. Definitely a stronger late game.
Karthus (Rod of Ages, Boots, Rabadon's, Void Staff)
x13 Q (509) = 6614
x10 Ticks E (222) = 2220
Total Possible Single Target Damage:
6614 + 2220 = 8834
Total Possible AoE Damage:
(254 * targets hit) * 9 + (Total Ticks on all targets * 222) + (818 * 5) = A lot. Too many arbitrary variables but you get the idea.
Karthus has no need to be super tanky or sustainy since his entire purpose is to die in the middle of a fight and deal tons of AoE damage and fire his ult off to deal 4090 damage to an entire team, plus the damage he deals before he dies in the fight, and the damage his E deals while dead. Just overall a better late game then Ryze since he naturally has shorter cooldowns better AoE and doesn't have to.
Kog Maw (Archangel's (Fully Stacked), boots, Rabadon's, Void Staff) (Total AP 472)
x2 Q's (590) = 1180
x2 E's (590) = 1180
x13 R's (542) = 7041
Total Possible Damage:
1180 + 1180 + 7041 = 9301
AP Kog here showing how powerful he is by dealing more damage than many of the current AP carries with his ult alone at a considerable distance, which mitigates how squishy he is. This calculation also does not mention the 10% of your max health his 710 range Auto Attacks are dealing, and with the passive Attack Speed buff on his Q, he hits you around 12 times (if I calculate AS per level scaling correctly). Powerful pre-fight Poke Damage, a ton of DPS in team fights all while staying relatively safe.
Veigar (DFG, Boots, Rabadon's, Void Staff + 75 Q Farms) (Total AP 536)
x5 Q's (582) = 2910
x2 W's (856) = 1712
R = 1143
Total Possible Damage
2910 + 1712 + 1143 = 5765 + 47.5% of one target's current health
King of Single Target Burst, and he scales into late game infinitely with that Q. You'd actually probably have more than 75 Q farms for champ kills and if you dedicated mid game to farming it. AoE Stun and the ability to completely kill one member of your team in a full combo. Not to mention that I didn't even factor in if Veigar used his ult on an AP champion. I like his late game more than Ryze, but you can go ahead and dislike him if you want. It's not a big deal to me.
Kennen (WotA, Boots, Rabadon's, Zhonya's) (Total AP 462)
x4 Q's (582) = 2326
x3 W's (439) = 1317
x3 E's (522) = 1566
Max Ult per Target = 1184
Total Possible Damage
2326 + 1317 + 1566 + 1184 = 6393
Kennen does straight up more damage for an Armor and MR buff that put his defensive stats on par with Ryze (that has a downtime of half a second when armed with Blue Buff) while also having a 2 second stasis. Further, he has more utility and mobility with his Passive Stun and E.
So these are all mage champions that are popular that have better late games than Ryze (Albeit Swain and Vlad go top Lane)
Another reason why Ryze is not as powerful in comparison to other Late Game AP carries, is because the only damage multiplication he gets has already been applied at this point in the game, with his max CDR. He can get a Void Staff and deal more damage, but that's money not being spent on tankiness, for an item that is simply more effective on AP Champions than it is on Ryze. Not to mention, that some AP's already have it and are doing more damage than him regardless, so he'd only buying it would only be an attempt to catch up. Further, the AP carries can increase their possible damage even further by getting a CDR item like Morello's Evil Tome, or Deathfire Grasp late game, which would increase their over time DPS even further, while ALSO dealing more straight up burst damage.
If you want to argue that it's his tankiness that makes him powerful late game, then let's take a look. Ryze's "Tankiness" totals to 2283 HP 180 Armor and 105 MR. As far as tankiness goes, that's rather weak. The only thing that keeps him alive long enough for you to think he's really tanky is the Spell Vamp ultimate + WotA, which is interestingm since that's exactly what some people last night on IRC were calling a passive spell that didn't feel like it does much beyond continue his combo. Vlad, Kennen and Swain all get similarly tanky while in the case of the latter two, do much more damage. Anyways, if you really wanted to make him more of a true tank, you'd build something like a 6th item Warmog's or even a Rylai's, but again, these item buys on Ryze don't add anything to his damage, which will make his late game damage fall off harder in comparison to simply be tankier. This may seem like a benefit to you, but it means he can't invest in MPen which means a single MR item makes his damage fall off even harder, making him less of an overall threat.
TL;DR Maths. (Old) Ryze's late game fell off. His utility is lower than other Mages, does less damage, and in certain cases is not even that significantly stronger in terms of tankiness.
MORE RIDICULOUS ME IDEAS
Morello's Swain to beat sustain mid, the only problem is he needs so many other items more than Morello's. xd
Morello's Swain to beat sustain mid, the only problem is he needs so many other items more than Morello's. xd
A lot of issues in your calc which I won't bother pointing out. I'll get to a basic example
Yeah no way she's firing 20 Twin Fangs in 10 secs. The cooldown only procs after the animation, which isn't instantaneous. Then there's cast time - and you have to keep poisoning them (unless they walk through a teemo shroom every second or so)
I'd like to see you actually try and cast this many spells in 10 secs (hint: you can't due to more things than energy limits).
No Rod on Anivia?
No Rylai's on Ahri?
noob builds calc better.
Anivia needs Cata, especially early, to give her more mana, esp to do all those combos, if she is holding her ult on for TEN SECONDS and spamming five other spells plus wall to keep them in.
Ahri likes slow for all her multi-target abilities.
Also lmao I'd love to see dunk Cass spamming QEEEEEEWEEEEEEQEEEEEE because you can't actually get 20 off in 10 seconds, not that she'll need 20 to kill but come on...
AND NO LEBLANC CALC
COME ON.
Not to mention being a good player and trying to avoid retaliation (is Veigar just standing around waiting for his Q every 2 seconds?), which is something that Ryze in Ult mode doesn't have to do nearly as much.
I'm not sure what the original point was but Ryze is tanky enough to fight 1v3 once he gets WotA.
I'm not sure what the original point was but Ryze is tanky enough to fight 1v3 once he gets WotA.
Alright, even if she gets 15 off she's still dealing astronomical amounts of damage. Say you miss 2 Q's and only get 7 Seconds of W poison Tick, (Not hard when you're guaranteed 3 every time you use it), she's STILL DEALING OVER 10000 damage.
In reality, it's not even that hard to keep the poison on. Use W to start it, Q when they're Slowed, ult helps land more Q's, W again when off cooldown, spam E throughout process.
How about instead of posting something snide, you could actually say what you mean. I saw the energy limits as being a problem, sure, but you say there's more. By all means go for it. I don't play the champion myself, so I may not fully be aware.
Again, I need to ask, what are you arguing here? Are you arguing the calculations simply because you don't like them, or are you arguing that Ryze is better late game than Kennen? Even if the calculations are off for various reasons, I don't think it can be argued that Ryze can compare himself to Late Game Kennen when at the very worst have similar levels of Damage (to a Single Target, Kennen deals far more if he ults on more than just one person), similar levels of tankiness, and one-sided in terms of utility (Hint: The utility is in favor of Kennen).
Fine, A Rylai's would bring her AP total down by 27, meaning she loses 174 damage, and that puts her at 5809. Yes, that's 60 less then Ryze. However, she's also extremely mobile, deals true damage, and has one of the most powerful CC spells in the game. It's not for just the flat damage that I like Ahri more than Ryze.
As for Anivia, I gave her an Archangel's Staff, which she gets 32 extra AP from compared to Rod of Ages while also getting far more mana than Rod of Ages can give for the exact reason you said build it. But again, if it's that big of a deal, she loses 240 damage overall from missing out on that 32 AP.
Noob builds calc better? Not really. The difference in damage output is minimal. If noob builds really bother you, you should question my giving Ahri Boots of Lucidity so she can get a 4th W off, but I'll just say fuck it, I gave Ryze an Extra W at 9.9 seconds.
Also, I don't like Leblanc more than Ryze late game, she'll be less bursty than Veigar late game, with far less utility. In case you didn't notice, these are all Mages that I like more than Ryze late game, and I gave you reasons why they're better in my opinion. If you're going to disagree with something then disagree on grounds that give you a logical arguing point. I'd prefer not to redo the damage calculations on all these champions for every 20 AP you want to take away.
@vonFielder: The point is that Ryze isn't as tanky or powerful as people seem to think once late game rolls through. For example, he can only 1v3 people with WotA if he's really fed. If there's been no kills and everyone just farmed, Ryze wouldn't be able to 1v3... He might take down one of them with him. But he won't take on all three and live.
I still haven't won a single game since Riot gave us the 10 win IP boost. 2-8 in my last ten matches. Not one human being on my team in the last ten matches. Nothing but mouth breathing 12 year old sub-human cry babies and mordees#1huehuehues. Last match featured me playing Cho in the jungle and starting 1/0/1 and Cait starting 2/0/1 but in that same time span Kennen mid went 0/5/0 and MF top went 0/5/0. Cait was first pick. They picked MF AFTER mid and bot were taken. Taric didn't ward at all and started DRing and took Flash/Clarity. His build featured two HoG and Berserker's Greaves. He ended up feeding as well. WTF.
I try to calmly be a positive force and a team leader and Kennen and MF just respond, "Play the fking game!"
I flipped my desk and yelled, "APPARENTLY I AM THE ONLY FUCKING ONE PLAYING THE GAME! 0/9/0 FINISH WHAT. THE. FUCK."
Oh, and the three feeders refused to surrender.
fucklol
I try to calmly be a positive force and a team leader and Kennen and MF just respond, "Play the fking game!"
I flipped my desk and yelled, "APPARENTLY I AM THE ONLY FUCKING ONE PLAYING THE GAME! 0/9/0 FINISH WHAT. THE. FUCK."
Oh, and the three feeders refused to surrender.
fucklol
It's not just a Kennen thing. The indisputable fact of the matter is that of all the calculations you made Ryze was the only close to accurate due to the fact that it doesn't take mechanical skill to do a full combo with Ryze. If you can hover your mouse over a target, you can hit as many times as you listed. This is not the case with any of your other calculations. This is League of Legends, a game of micro skill, not Pokemon.
Cass and Karth still do a great deal more damage, but they should being glass cannons.
Strong early game. Ryze gets fed easily.
And back to your original point
He's the only mage you listed with a strong single target CC, and unlike some mages you didn't list (Xerath) it's not even conditional. And since he is tanky and can front line, it's an even better CC because he can pick off targets proactively. This has only improved now that he has move speed.
As I said before, yes, it's true that Ryze is easy to play, but if you're going to imply that his late game is better simply for the fact that he's easier I'm going to have to disagree. Just because he has a low skill cap doesn't make him a better champion overall. That's an attribute not an asset.
Of course they do, but you miss the point. The point is that they deal so much more damage, that it makes up for their lack of tankiness. Also their ability to melt targets/teams make them better than Ryze late game.
Assumption. Just because you are strong early game doesn't mean you're guaranteed to get fed. Also, getting fed just gets you to your late game faster. Once everyone gets to late game, Ryze isn't as strong anymore, which is my point. You aren't good late game because you're good early game. That's not how it works.
Wait wut? Strong Single Target CC means he has comparable utility to the ones I listed? Most of those champions listed have powerful AoE CC that are FAR more disruptive in teamfights. Hell, if your plan is to pick people off one by one late game, Anivia is a stronger choice, since her Wall gives better team fight disruption, does the same job (if not better as it cuts off their escape for 5 seconds, and at almost double the range of Ryze's CC), with much more up front burst, and more overall damage in a teamfight anyway.
Also, I'm not arguing about updated Ryze, don't bring him up. I haven't seen the new version enough to argue for or against his late game power.
No, it just fucks up all of your calculations. Grading mages on a ten second scale was naive to begin with, and that's coming from a guy who has done these calculations for every character in the game (guess why I never posted them). Then there's the complexities of calculating for AoE damage, which all of Ryze's spells do (I think you forget that).
Yes. Rune Prison always hits the squishy enemy mage. Rune Prison always holds the off position AD carry still for the rest of your team to pounce on. And because you are tanky, you can dive in to do it, something only Swain can do with his CC (and good luck rooting that tumbling Vayne). Ahri and Veigar's CC are certainly strong in other ways, but you are crazy to think that a character with hard CC has no utility.
Lolwat.
Anivia is the queen of CC. Wanna catch tumbling Vayne? Drop R as she goes into it, wall behind her and deploy stun as she comes out. Her stun may be shorter duration compared to some but she is still isolating one target then stunning before a flash escape.
Ahri E is a solid taunt that peels one guy off. Veigar stuns a big circle but he can use that to melt your AP champs so it serves its single-target purpose.
Now as for people not on the list, MORG and by extension Lux have snares as well. Morg also has a spell shield to prevent countersnares as she QWs you.
As for TV's points on Rod/Rylai's, frankly I think Rod (via Cata) does infinitely more for Anivia before she hits 18 than Tear would. Lowest HP at lv1 means she appreciates some more HP and mana, plus regeneration on levelup which she can do relatively well via clearing waves with ult. If you're only using incomplete builds you wouldn't have sold Rod yet. Rylai's is a personal choice as to when you get it on Ahri I suppose but I like to take it earlier.
Also LeBlanc has a silence and GREAT utility: she makes enemy squishies afraid to come out since her QR follow even if you flash out and she can W in and out. She will still take a giant chunk of enemy carry hp and her Q cd is rather short. Veigar does his most notable damage to APs while LB dgaf and melts everyone.
Yeah Yeti you've been ninja'd.
Single target means that you click on one opponent and it always works. That changes its application greatly.
Single target means that you click on one opponent and it always works. That changes its application greatly.
? I thought it was pretty clear there - even with 40% cooldown and infinite energy, you're not firing 4x Qs, 3x Ws and 3x Es. Between cast times, the fact that you can't use two spells at the same time, and Lightning Rush's "you have to move in to damage your opponent", (and the whole skillshot thing, and the fact that he doesn't heal enough back with Spell Vamp to repeatedly take hits, etc, etc, etc), Kennen is losing too much time and is realistically not going to sit there and be a machine gun mage.
She's not getting 15. At best she gets like 8 or 9