I've seen it around but I've never used it. I actually haven't used Tech loom but it looks threatening. You run Spore on CB too right?
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Tobes
- Start date
I'm curious; where does Rotom-W stand in this current meta? I've noticed that it seems like it's significantly dropped in usage and when I do see them, most are bulky sets with lefties rather than Scarf. With Keldeo and Tornadus around, I expected the opposite. Have the new Kami Formes really had that big of an impact on how players use Rotom or are there other factors?
Actually, I don't. The opponent is going to switch and play around loom as if it had spore anyway (since they don't know i'm not running it), and meanwhile i can get in a free CB-boosted hit or two. The threat of spore is almost as good as having spore itself, and it frees up a moveslot.
Yes, Keldeo and Tornadus-T are big threats. However, with the introduction of Thundurus-T, it's suddenly much more dangerous to throw around Choice-locked Electric moves; Not only do you heal him of SR damage, you also give him a free turn to set up or fire of a powerful Thunder. That explains the lack of Scarfers.
As for the fall in usage, I find that Rotom-W is facing more competition for a team slot. Tornadus-T, Keldeo, and Thundurus-T are arguably better Rain abusers, and Tornadus-T even has Regenerator, making him an option over Rotom-W for a scout with U-Turn. Lanturn has also seen a significant spike in usage since he counters Tornadus and Thundurus so well, and he directly competes with Rotom-W since they share the exact same typing. Basically, he's still good, but now faces competition in some roles he used to dominate in.
Sending in a poke for sleep fodder is too easily punished by CBLoom, which just fucks up your switch in with an OHKO. And I'd still run Spore anyway, because it's still essentially a free kill, and often more than that (lets you setup for a sweep). You could easily just use it after you've disposed of the obvious Tornadus switch in.
It's nice to see Haxorus getting so much discussion, but Loom is so much worse in this meta. The threat that CB carries with Low Sweep 2HKO'ing most common switchins with no reply (due to speed drop) and Spore basically taking a mon out for free, coupled with revenge killing in Mach Punch.... What makes it worse is that you don't know whether it's CB or the SD set. Tornadus-T is a fair switch in to take the Spore, and then OHKO back with a lucky Sleep Talk... until you're 2HKO'd by Low Sweep. Skarm is a fair switchin to the CB set, until you're slept by Spore and 2HKO'd by +2 Mach Punch (in this situation, a SD on the switch, Spore, then 2 hits from Mach Punch would only even require 1 turn of sleep). With Gliscor, Hippo and Slowbro both OHKO'd by Bullet Seed, this thing decimates even the bulkiest walls in the tier. It's like Haxorus in that you can't switch in to it (yeah, okay, there's Celebi and Amoonguss, but running that makes it hard to avoid being dominated by Tornadus, which is everywhere), but it's got Spore and can revenge kill; it's so much worse. I personally think it's gone over the top, but that's still open for discussion.
It's nice to see Haxorus getting so much discussion, but Loom is so much worse in this meta. The threat that CB carries with Low Sweep 2HKO'ing most common switchins with no reply (due to speed drop) and Spore basically taking a mon out for free, coupled with revenge killing in Mach Punch.... What makes it worse is that you don't know whether it's CB or the SD set. Tornadus-T is a fair switch in to take the Spore, and then OHKO back with a lucky Sleep Talk... until you're 2HKO'd by Low Sweep. Skarm is a fair switchin to the CB set, until you're slept by Spore and 2HKO'd by +2 Mach Punch (in this situation, a SD on the switch, Spore, then 2 hits from Mach Punch would only even require 1 turn of sleep). With Gliscor, Hippo and Slowbro both OHKO'd by Bullet Seed, this thing decimates even the bulkiest walls in the tier. It's like Haxorus in that you can't switch in to it (yeah, okay, there's Celebi and Amoonguss, but running that makes it hard to avoid being dominated by Tornadus, which is everywhere), but it's got Spore and can revenge kill; it's so much worse. I personally think it's gone over the top, but that's still open for discussion.
I think Alomomola deserves some use... it has massive HP and if you EV it in def and HP it can wall any physical hit really well. Combined with Wish it can heal it's teammates and itself too in the process (because of Regenerator). It also delivers massive Wishes to it's mates (267 HP if it's maxed out).
I always loved using it in the DW tier when BW came out, but then it wasn't allowed with Regenerator in standard OU since it wasn't released. I stopped using it then, because it really wasn't that good anymore.. but now it came back, and it's as great as ever.
Scald and Toxic scare switch-ins a bit.
It just has to watch out for special attacks and some setuppers... (sub especially ._.) Oh and Toxic.
Combine it with another bulky Pokemon (hopefully good at sp def, but it also shouldn't be too weak to physical attacks or else your opponent will just predict the switch) and maybe with Toxic Spikes and it's really good. Grass types work well here, since they resist both of Alos weaknesses. I like pairing it up with Amoonguss... (eats Toxic Spikes and is also really bulky and even has Regenerator too)
Edit:
It is overall just a little bit bulkier than Slowbro if you want to compare the two.
Alo isn't weak to Bug/Ghost/Dark so that's helpful. Especially against (Scizors) U-Turn.
Scizor with max Atk and CB U-Turn deals 78 % (max) to Slowbro and 36 % (max) to Alomomola. (when they both run max hp and def with a +def nature)
So even if U-Turn wasn't SE it would still deal 3 % more than on Alo. Which isn't much, but something. And what sets Alo also appart is Wish support.
I always loved using it in the DW tier when BW came out, but then it wasn't allowed with Regenerator in standard OU since it wasn't released. I stopped using it then, because it really wasn't that good anymore.. but now it came back, and it's as great as ever.
Scald and Toxic scare switch-ins a bit.
It just has to watch out for special attacks and some setuppers... (sub especially ._.) Oh and Toxic.
Combine it with another bulky Pokemon (hopefully good at sp def, but it also shouldn't be too weak to physical attacks or else your opponent will just predict the switch) and maybe with Toxic Spikes and it's really good. Grass types work well here, since they resist both of Alos weaknesses. I like pairing it up with Amoonguss... (eats Toxic Spikes and is also really bulky and even has Regenerator too)
Edit:
It is overall just a little bit bulkier than Slowbro if you want to compare the two.
Alo isn't weak to Bug/Ghost/Dark so that's helpful. Especially against (Scizors) U-Turn.
Scizor with max Atk and CB U-Turn deals 78 % (max) to Slowbro and 36 % (max) to Alomomola. (when they both run max hp and def with a +def nature)
So even if U-Turn wasn't SE it would still deal 3 % more than on Alo. Which isn't much, but something. And what sets Alo also appart is Wish support.
Yes, alomomola is bulkier but most of the time, slowbro and vaporeon outclasses it. Yes, it might have great physical bulls, but other things ruin it for her. Vaporeon has great special bulk, unlike alomomola, and hs a whopping 110 sp.atk stat to utilize scald, unlike alomomola's 45.
Slowbro's psychic typing might give it weaknesses to bug and dark, but it's fighting resistance is precious.
Alomomola has its perks but slowbro or vaporeon almost always does it better
And I'd like to add that bluemon isn't saying that Alomomola sucks and that you shouldn't use it, use what you like, but that even with the better defense and wish passing, the general utility those two offer tends to be more beneficial.
That's true. Alomomola's primary way of dealing damage is toxic. That makes it setup bait for many pokemon that don't mind it, including scizor, anything with Substitute and moderate defenses, breloom, gliscor, etc. At least vaporeon gets roar and slowbro decenter attacking moves and faster recovery. Alomomola doesn't suck but I don't see it being used much in OU nowadays. It's way better suited for the lOwer tiers.
Well, not from my experience. Yeah vap can roar but slowbro is just as much setup bait unless it runs calm mind. The bulk is soo good. The wishes much bigger, and burn/ toxic is alright for it.
Also Vaporen doesn't have Regenerator and much less physical bulk. It's better to compare it to Slowbro lol.
Jolly max atk Salamence at +1 Outrange
Alo: 48 - 56 %
Vap: 65 - 76 %
Jolly max atk Terrakion Close Combat
Alo: 31 - 37 %
Vap: 42 - 50 %
(Vap and Alo at max hp/def and a +def nature)
Also Alomomola could use Mirror Coat... then switch out to regain health, lol.
Well anyway. I'm not saying it's better than Slowbro at everything. Slowbro is obviously better against some Bugs / Steels with Fire Blast or against Fighting Pokemon (although, Alo probably wouldn't lose that much anyway, from physical attacks that is).
I guess I just really like the bulk combined with Regenerator and Wish support. You don't have to use it if you don't want to, but it really helps me in the battles I have, since it is soooo hard to take down as long as you keep it away from special attacks.
Slowbro checks Haxorus nicely, fearing only a boosted Adamant LO Outrage, and sends a weakened Haxorus packing with Ice Beam (60.92 - 72.18%). Slowbro's power and arguably better typing make it better than Alomamola, in my opinion, who just kind of sits there and barely does enough to threaten anything. WishPassing is cool, but it's a niche better covered by Vaporeon for the most part.
On Slowbro, I run Slack Off, Scald, Ice Beam and Psyshock. It's covered everything I needed it to until a SubDD Gyarados broke through it and swept my team. Is there any room to run HP Electric as well? It's not like you lose coverage (BoltBeam, people) but giving up any of those moves means losing against something it can normally handle (or being less effective against Rain).
On Slowbro, I run Slack Off, Scald, Ice Beam and Psyshock. It's covered everything I needed it to until a SubDD Gyarados broke through it and swept my team. Is there any room to run HP Electric as well? It's not like you lose coverage (BoltBeam, people) but giving up any of those moves means losing against something it can normally handle (or being less effective against Rain).
I'd ditch psyshock for HP electric, as you already have a great STAB in scald, and many of the pokemon Slowbro commonly walls have high def (scizor, namely). Scald with burn effectively shuts down physical attackers better than psyshock.
What do you guys think about Chansey in this meta? It takes advantage of the rain-dominating weather(not needing to deal with sandstorm/hail dmg) and can pretty much counter Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T, since their Superpower doesn't hit much(unless if you're facing a banded set, but this is so situational) and she can always threat them with bad status/ice beam.
Blissey and Chansey are OHKO by +4 Thundurus Foucs Blast and 2hkoed by it. Aslo Thundurus can run Hammer Arm.
Well, that gives Haxorus a free DD. so when Haxorus is at about 30% health, a +1 LO Outrage will OHKO 252HP/252DEF every time. I would be more worried about Scald than Ice Beam because of the burn.
And yes, I would say there is. Psyshock is a good STAB move, but Scald and Ice Beam are much more important. I would personally take out Pyshock and put HP Electric there if Gyarados is that much of a threat to your team.
Are you joking ? Why do you let Thundurus boost at +4 ?
22.3% - 26.3% (157 - 185)
LO Thundurus-T dmg with Hammer Arm against Chansey(216 ev's in atk).
Haven't seen Thundurus-T carrying NP sets yet - actually its pretty situational, since its speed doesn't guarantee a sweep -, but this is FB dmg for the most common set(Modest LO with Agility):
36.9% - 43.5% (260 - 306)
Btw, saying that x isn't a counter for y just because y can OHKO x using an uncommon set while +4 is, at least, stupid.
So Hydreigon legally now has access to Dark Pulse AND Earth Power on the same set, right? How well positioned would a cannon-like set be positioned at the moment:
Hydreigon @Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
Ability: Levitate
~ Draco Meteor
~ Fire Blast
~ Earth Power
~ Dark Pulse
There's almost no explanation needed for how this works. Timid doesn't let it hit any important speed tiers other than outspeeding... Nidoking and Lucario, if that?
Meteor murders just about everything in general that isn't a fat pink blob or a bulky Steel, Fire Blast toasts bulky grasses like Ferrothorn and Amoongus (OHKO on each outside of rain, and even in rain sometimes in Ferro's case depending on EV spread.), Earth Power murders Heatran, and Dark Pulse is for everything else and makes for an effective Reuniclus answer. Give him wish support and some way of removing the blobs and you're good to go. Haven't played in a while though and I hear substitute variants are popular at the moment so I'll defer to you excellent ladies and gents.
Hydreigon @Life Orb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
Ability: Levitate
~ Draco Meteor
~ Fire Blast
~ Earth Power
~ Dark Pulse
There's almost no explanation needed for how this works. Timid doesn't let it hit any important speed tiers other than outspeeding... Nidoking and Lucario, if that?
Meteor murders just about everything in general that isn't a fat pink blob or a bulky Steel, Fire Blast toasts bulky grasses like Ferrothorn and Amoongus (OHKO on each outside of rain, and even in rain sometimes in Ferro's case depending on EV spread.), Earth Power murders Heatran, and Dark Pulse is for everything else and makes for an effective Reuniclus answer. Give him wish support and some way of removing the blobs and you're good to go. Haven't played in a while though and I hear substitute variants are popular at the moment so I'll defer to you excellent ladies and gents.
Between Thundurus-T and Amoongus being on pretty much every team, Rotom-W is finding it more and more difficult to find a spot on any team. However, it does have a niche of a good defensive and offensive typing and a role on Volturn.
Blissey running T-wave and seismic toss as only attacking move. Thundurus can easily NP and 2ohko. This includes Life Orb of course, also I did not state this as counter, but Thundurus can beat Blissey if need be. Please read thoroughly before being idiotic. ^^
Guys... why in fuckdom would you use psyshock on Slowbro when it has PSYCHIC. Psychic can easily break any Gyarados sub and whittle it down until its dead if you don't feel like risking scald burns, ive done this many, many times before. Psychic also kills off Conkeldurr, Toxicroak, and does big damage to Terrakion. Why in the world would you even consider HP electric, ew.
Ive been using Chansey in this meta since the beginning, its amazing, it takes superpowers like a champ.
For the moment, nasty plot Thundurus is pretty uncommon, and Chansey doesn't have to use toxic to beat it, it can just spam seismic toss, because after stealth rock damage and life orb, its pretty much dead after 2 seismic tosses. Not to mention Amoongus can take a +2 HP ice as well, it can only be 1HKOed if rocks are up and it runs life orb, and even then its only sometimes with high damage rolls.
Ive been using Chansey in this meta since the beginning, its amazing, it takes superpowers like a champ.
For the moment, nasty plot Thundurus is pretty uncommon, and Chansey doesn't have to use toxic to beat it, it can just spam seismic toss, because after stealth rock damage and life orb, its pretty much dead after 2 seismic tosses. Not to mention Amoongus can take a +2 HP ice as well, it can only be 1HKOed if rocks are up and it runs life orb, and even then its only sometimes with high damage rolls.
So I've been tweaking my Sun team in this very rain dominant meta and I've noticed that Sawsbuck @ Expert Belt works VERY well in the meta. It outspeeds and OHKO's all Politoeds and most Rotom-W (not max speed Timid) unless they've heavily invested in Physical defense even under Rain.
Under Sun it can outspeed and revenge many prominent mons and the only weather starter that's not OHKO'd is Hippowdon which it gets the 2HKO on with Horn Leech. Jump Kick for Tyranitar which is a OHKO with no Chople Berry and Ninetails eats dust with EQ á la Nature Power.
Add in Take-Down which gets STAB and you take a massive chunk off anything that doesn't resist it on the switch and under Sun will outspeed and KO even most scarfed threats.
Under Sun it can outspeed and revenge many prominent mons and the only weather starter that's not OHKO'd is Hippowdon which it gets the 2HKO on with Horn Leech. Jump Kick for Tyranitar which is a OHKO with no Chople Berry and Ninetails eats dust with EQ á la Nature Power.
Add in Take-Down which gets STAB and you take a massive chunk off anything that doesn't resist it on the switch and under Sun will outspeed and KO even most scarfed threats.
Take down over double edge on Sawsbuck?! O_o
I don't have much faith in chansey but back when I used it, Tyranitar was everywhere. I'm gonna wait until things settle down before trying to give it a fair chance. I haven't lost to a keldeo yet and I'm not in the mood to give it more setup opportunities.
I don't have much faith in chansey but back when I used it, Tyranitar was everywhere. I'm gonna wait until things settle down before trying to give it a fair chance. I haven't lost to a keldeo yet and I'm not in the mood to give it more setup opportunities.