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So many weather teams... Is non-weather viable?
- Thread starter Eleon
- Start date
alphatron
Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3465355
Post your question here next time.
And yes. Non weather teams are viable. Honestly, weather teams have not had a grip over the metagame for quite some time. Teams with Tyranitar on them are not always sand teams as Tyranitar is simply a good Pokemon (only thanks to sand stream...oddly enough. Unnerve Tyranitar is bad in every aspect. UU worthy at the most).
Rain is getting a resurgence right now but rain can be combatted even if you're using a non-weather team.
Post your question here next time.
And yes. Non weather teams are viable. Honestly, weather teams have not had a grip over the metagame for quite some time. Teams with Tyranitar on them are not always sand teams as Tyranitar is simply a good Pokemon (only thanks to sand stream...oddly enough. Unnerve Tyranitar is bad in every aspect. UU worthy at the most).
Rain is getting a resurgence right now but rain can be combatted even if you're using a non-weather team.
If you want to make it into a discussion on how to use non-weather teams in the metagame, though, that would justify a thread of its own.
I think rain is a lot more popular because it got so many new toys (especially Keldeo and the Therians), and the other weathers went up because they're the best way to beat rain. It's certainly possible to make an effective non-weather team, but unless you're using a weather-changing move you need to be certain that your team is at least functional in all weathers, so that you can handle weather teams in their own domain.
Having your own weather up makes life a LOT easier for you. For example, Specs Keldeo using Hydro Pump starts 2HKOing a lot of things indiscriminately in the rain; if they don't resist AND have excellent defensive stats or aren't a fat, pink blob, there's really not a damn thing they can do about it. Physically Defensive Celebi barely makes it out alive IF Hydro Pump rolls low or misses if Rocks are up. Specially Defensive Jirachi, the most common special wall in the game (this is admittedly anecdotal; I rarely ever see Chansey or Blissey anymore) straight-up can't switch in. Too much prior damage or a few layers of Spikes and Jirachi is OHKOd.
The fact that that kind of power requires zero forethought on the player's part is bound to be attractive. A strategy I've used in the past is using Sunny Day Lilligant, and then breaking their weather once I've taken down Tyranitar/Politoed/Abomasnow. As far as opposing sun teams go, Lilligant is one of the faster Chlorophyll users, so I can just sleep what Solar Beam and HP Fire don't take care of, and then beat on them with something else.
Weather teams are certainly easier to use, and rain is by far the best and most powerful condition in the game with only Stealth Rock coming anywhere close, but they can be beaten. You just have to think a lot more when putting your team together.
The fact that that kind of power requires zero forethought on the player's part is bound to be attractive. A strategy I've used in the past is using Sunny Day Lilligant, and then breaking their weather once I've taken down Tyranitar/Politoed/Abomasnow. As far as opposing sun teams go, Lilligant is one of the faster Chlorophyll users, so I can just sleep what Solar Beam and HP Fire don't take care of, and then beat on them with something else.
Weather teams are certainly easier to use, and rain is by far the best and most powerful condition in the game with only Stealth Rock coming anywhere close, but they can be beaten. You just have to think a lot more when putting your team together.
Hmf. More weather discussion.
Non-weather is certainly viable, and will probably remain so for a very long time. It's not non-weather that's not viable anymore, it's weather being stronger and more effective than ever before. The multitudes of benefits weather gives is something that is not supposed to be overlooked and is something most players like to use.
However, the abundance of weather also makes nonweather viable also. Take the pokemon Kingdra. Why, Kingdra was once very feared, however the ban of Swift Swim and Drizzle has ended it's reign of terror. So why is it still viable in OU, where it can't use the very weather it worked best in? Because Kingdra is a priceless weapon for nonweather teams- because rain is so popular, even if you don't run your own rain, the chances that your opponent will are high. That's why Kingdra is still used in OU. You see, just because you don't run weather doesn't mean you can't use it.
Different playstyles also call for different field effects. Hyper offense teams tend to lean towards Sun and Rain, where they get a massive x2 power boost, while Stall teams prefer Sand and Hail because of the added damage. However, non-weather excels at both, which is why many balanced teams run nonweather. Despite this, however, weather will still be prominent, and many people will think that non weather is outclassed by weather.
Non-weather is certainly viable, and will probably remain so for a very long time. It's not non-weather that's not viable anymore, it's weather being stronger and more effective than ever before. The multitudes of benefits weather gives is something that is not supposed to be overlooked and is something most players like to use.
However, the abundance of weather also makes nonweather viable also. Take the pokemon Kingdra. Why, Kingdra was once very feared, however the ban of Swift Swim and Drizzle has ended it's reign of terror. So why is it still viable in OU, where it can't use the very weather it worked best in? Because Kingdra is a priceless weapon for nonweather teams- because rain is so popular, even if you don't run your own rain, the chances that your opponent will are high. That's why Kingdra is still used in OU. You see, just because you don't run weather doesn't mean you can't use it.
Different playstyles also call for different field effects. Hyper offense teams tend to lean towards Sun and Rain, where they get a massive x2 power boost, while Stall teams prefer Sand and Hail because of the added damage. However, non-weather excels at both, which is why many balanced teams run nonweather. Despite this, however, weather will still be prominent, and many people will think that non weather is outclassed by weather.
However, keep in mind that Kingdra is only effective in this regard because it's still viable without rain support. If you use a Pokémon that only works in a specific weather, then every time you don't face that weather you basically start the match 5-6.
Alice
The worst taste in music
Yeah, kingdra seems to be sexy in bw2 meta, but how common is his arch-nemesis: ferrothorn?
if he's uncommon enough I can see both specs and chestorest kingdra plowing through teams like there's no tomorrow...
Non weather is viable, but you have to be careful. I find the best way to beat weather is to use an inducer of your own and pack a counter to that specific weather. For example, use tyranitar and pack a landorus counter to shut down both different weather and sand. It's easier than keeping a counter for all 4 weather types.
I tried non-weather multiple times in BW2, and to say the least I think it's just barely even viable right now.
It's not that it's not possible. It's that when using non-weather, your options are actually rather limited, even more so than if you do use weather. Instead of just attempting to win the weather war, you've got to have stuff that can directly switch in on the weather threats. You also need to be able to beat things like Venusaur without changing the weather. It's very possible, but it's much easier to deal with if you can just use your own weather. Same story with Tornadus-T. Remove Rain, and Tornadus-T is actually much easier to deal with because it can't just Hurricane spam. Kingdra seems appealing to combat Rain, but there's something called Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn walls Kingdra to hell and back. I actually still run into Ferrothorn quite a bit. But, get rid of rain, and Ferrothorn is actually quite underwhelming as it's possible to burn it to a crisp with a Fire-type move.
So, really, non-weather is still viable and I like to use it from time to time. However, making a successful non-weather team may prove to be much more difficult than it is to just use a weather team of your own. Just how much easier things are with weather is very noticeable, so as long as perma-weather is allowed in OU, you are going to run into it a lot.
It's not that it's not possible. It's that when using non-weather, your options are actually rather limited, even more so than if you do use weather. Instead of just attempting to win the weather war, you've got to have stuff that can directly switch in on the weather threats. You also need to be able to beat things like Venusaur without changing the weather. It's very possible, but it's much easier to deal with if you can just use your own weather. Same story with Tornadus-T. Remove Rain, and Tornadus-T is actually much easier to deal with because it can't just Hurricane spam. Kingdra seems appealing to combat Rain, but there's something called Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn walls Kingdra to hell and back. I actually still run into Ferrothorn quite a bit. But, get rid of rain, and Ferrothorn is actually quite underwhelming as it's possible to burn it to a crisp with a Fire-type move.
So, really, non-weather is still viable and I like to use it from time to time. However, making a successful non-weather team may prove to be much more difficult than it is to just use a weather team of your own. Just how much easier things are with weather is very noticeable, so as long as perma-weather is allowed in OU, you are going to run into it a lot.
Dragonite actually works very well in weather. In Sun, DD Dragonite gets a useful boost to Fire Punch, making it easier to break through things like Skarmory. In Rain, it can abuse Hurricane and Thunder (the only Pokemon that learns this combination if I recall correctly).
Yes, they do work. In fact my weatherless team is currently around 1300 points and has been top 100 on the PO server.
A lot of people moan about me using a weird gengar but nearly every game i can get a kill with it and i can use mind games to win.
I'm thinking of switching Latios to Kingdra to hurt rain teams more, as water with ice coverage can mess my team up. LO Starmie is a problem in rain
Gengar (F) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt
- Giga Drain
- Shadow Ball
Conkeldurr (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
Dragonite (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- ExtremeSpeed
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
Latios (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
Heatran (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Dragon Pulse
Cobalion @ Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 212 HP / 104 Atk / 192 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- Sacred Sword
- Stone Edge
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt
- Giga Drain
- Shadow Ball
Conkeldurr (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Mach Punch
- Ice Punch
Dragonite (F) @ Choice Band
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- ExtremeSpeed
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
Latios (M) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt
Heatran (F) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Dragon Pulse
Cobalion @ Leftovers
Trait: Justified
EVs: 212 HP / 104 Atk / 192 Def
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave
- Sacred Sword
- Stone Edge
A lot of people moan about me using a weird gengar but nearly every game i can get a kill with it and i can use mind games to win.
I'm thinking of switching Latios to Kingdra to hurt rain teams more, as water with ice coverage can mess my team up. LO Starmie is a problem in rain
Non-weather teams are definitely viable - in fact, I prefer them, since you do not run into cases where your Pokemon becomes severely crippled should you lose the weather war (Venusaur, Tornadus-T and Hurricane Dragonite etc).
Having said that, this does not mean you do not have to take into account the massive threats that run rampant in weather.
Running a Starmie against a rain team can be so much fun.
Having said that, this does not mean you do not have to take into account the massive threats that run rampant in weather.
Running a Starmie against a rain team can be so much fun.
My most successful team in BW2 so far is a non-weather offense team. I'm experimenting with a non-weather full stall team as well. I know there's a lot of people trying to write off certain playstyles and certain team archetypes, but seriously, don't listen to them. It's about building teams with good synergy and exploiting weaknesses in the metagame (which there are stacks of). If you can do that, you can pretty much thrive using any team. There's a difference between what is good and what is easy.
You don't need to run a weather team to win. You just need to keep in mind prominent weather abusers when constructing your team. For instance, you NEED an answer to Tornadus-Therian or you're just setting yourself up to be destroyed.
Yeah, the Kingdra was just an example, of a pokemon that only worked well in nonweather because it sucks in other weather besides Rain and in rain it's banned. Of course, I've seen things like Kingdra in Sun to counter rain, but it's much less common.
I also totally agree with Shrang- I got to #87 with a weatherless Stall team. Right now I'm testing it with sandstorm but it really doesn't need it. Some people may think that you can almost always benefit from having weather- while that's often true, there are often also better options to run than just slapping in a politoed. One weakness I've seen in many common weather teams is the fact that many rely on their weather way too much; so much so that they are entirely clueless without it. Non weather teams have freedom- which is why the top players of the tier don't use weather. As long as you check the most common tier threats, you should be fine, with or without weather.
I also totally agree with Shrang- I got to #87 with a weatherless Stall team. Right now I'm testing it with sandstorm but it really doesn't need it. Some people may think that you can almost always benefit from having weather- while that's often true, there are often also better options to run than just slapping in a politoed. One weakness I've seen in many common weather teams is the fact that many rely on their weather way too much; so much so that they are entirely clueless without it. Non weather teams have freedom- which is why the top players of the tier don't use weather. As long as you check the most common tier threats, you should be fine, with or without weather.
Of course a lot of teams use weather, but non-weather teams are certainly viable. Right now I have only one team that is non-weather, but it does handle most of the other teams nicely with its plethora Pokemon to take advantage of either weather situation. It all depends partially on how you structure your team, your play style, and your strategy around both of them. I confess that a lot of my teams are weather-based, but weather is also a common way of making sure you have your ground on your team. Can the opponent's weather screw up both weather teams and non-weather teams? Certainly, but it doesn't stop non-weather teams from being able to bitch slap the opposition.
Like others such as Electrolyte pointed out, you have secret cards you can always use in non-weather teams such as Kingdra. It's a monster as either Choice Specs or SubDD. A lot of people underestimate it off the bat because it doesn't have the sexy Swift Swim + Drizzle tied with it, but you can always run your own rain if you fear things such as Ninetales and pair it up with Dugtrio to make sure Tyranitar / Ninetales don't ruin your weather. If the opponent has Politoed, it just makes it all the easier.
Like others such as Electrolyte pointed out, you have secret cards you can always use in non-weather teams such as Kingdra. It's a monster as either Choice Specs or SubDD. A lot of people underestimate it off the bat because it doesn't have the sexy Swift Swim + Drizzle tied with it, but you can always run your own rain if you fear things such as Ninetales and pair it up with Dugtrio to make sure Tyranitar / Ninetales don't ruin your weather. If the opponent has Politoed, it just makes it all the easier.
I generally play weatherless, and provided your team is constructed to give weather problems you can easily be as strong as a weather team. One thing to keep in mind is that the only wearer started that is actually a strong Pokemon on its own is Ttar, and maybe Hippo. Added to the fact that weather teams have a very predictable structure, you have to play "anti-meta" to succeed. Notable examples of pokes that do this are Landy, Heatran, Celebi, Breloom, and Raikou. This works; a non weather team of mine is around 1700 on Showdown and would be higher if ratings were up.
Sayonara
don't forget
also, having sun / rain with dragonite prevents sand teams from breaking dragonite's multiscale with the residual damage.
Non-weather is pretty viable for reasons already mentioned. It might be a little more difficult to build a successful non-weather team due to the boosts some threats such as Keldeo, Tornadus-T, and Venusaur get in their respective weathers, but that doesn't have to deter you from using non-weather. Many of the checks and counters to weather-based threats are perfectly viable in non-weather teams, and many of which work pretty well together.
Non weather is actually a bit easier to build for stall teams in the BW2 metagame as others have noted. Sand stall off the bat faces the problem of using Tyranitar or Hippowdon (or both if your nuts). Tyranitar is ok, but its role as a special wall / set up pokemon / revenge pokemon is harder to run with it being outright killed by many special sweepers / other pokemon can set up easier / and Tornadus-T now effortlessly outspeeds even scarf versions. Hippowdon is a bit easier to make around, however there are now a ton more physical walls that break through the beast, which is why its lying in BL, its not the amazing physical wall it once was. Rain stall has probably taken the biggest drop, off the bat probably the biggest reason your using rainstall is Tentacruel, but Tentacruel faces is huge problem, its a great spinner, but for team synergy its almost Politoed 2.0, it can only set up shitty toxic spikes which suck in the current meta. From there your under immediate pressure to use something that actually uses hazards, and with 2 pokemon swallowed up in the same role the next 3 pokemon are a pain to make work together. Hail stall has always been difficult to make.
Weatherless stall offers quite frankly, a whole other pokemon to use as you wish, that doesn't have to be forced in an built around like a puzzle piece to another puzzle, you can just use the right pokemon to start off / end with.
Weatherless stall offers quite frankly, a whole other pokemon to use as you wish, that doesn't have to be forced in an built around like a puzzle piece to another puzzle, you can just use the right pokemon to start off / end with.
hippowdon is OU, dude.
da fuck...ttar is awesome. still a great scarfer, and all around great pokemon. sr ttar, ddttar, sets up sand, strong ass pursuits, still a solid answer to tornadus, etc.
i think this sums my thoughts on this sentence:
<@negres> LOL
<@negres> thats goo
<@negres> d
<@negres> MAN I HAVE TO USE TTAR
<@negres> WHAT A SHIT POKEMON