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The Everything NFL Thread - 2012 Season (Up til 2013 Draft)
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Clearly it's because Romo plays so poorly in the 4th quarter.
Not sure if being sarcastic lol
It obviously is accurate. However there is no such thing as "clutch" and if there was you could not use passer rating to measure it. You would need to watch the games themselves as a player can have 130+ passer rating and still lose the game with a dumb pick six.
To find cluth you would need to watch every 4th quater and ignore stats. And even then it is hard because the defense plays such an important part along with the other teams mistakes.
In 2011 Eli Manning was the most "clutch" QB simply because of how crappy the team was playing. 15 4th quater TDs is so insane that the Giants should be embarrased with themselves. We may not realize it now but his performance was all time great. Rivaling the great QBs of old .. even if, sadly, the defense won't get as much credit because in spite of their piss poor play the whole game, they made stops when it mattered.
It obviously is accurate. However there is no such thing as "clutch" and if there was you could not use passer rating to measure it. You would need to watch the games themselves as a player can have 130+ passer rating and still lose the game with a dumb pick six.
To find cluth you would need to watch every 4th quater and ignore stats. And even then it is hard because the defense plays such an important part along with the other teams mistakes.
In 2011 Eli Manning was the most "clutch" QB simply because of how crappy the team was playing. 15 4th quater TDs is so insane that the Giants should be embarrased with themselves. We may not realize it now but his performance was all time great. Rivaling the great QBs of old .. even if, sadly, the defense won't get as much credit because in spite of their piss poor play the whole game, they made stops when it mattered.
Considering that list is almost in the exact same order as career passer rating (Romo/Rodgers/Rivers/Brady/Peyton, compared to Rodgers/Romo/Brady/Rivers/Peyton) Roethlisberger is probably 6th or 7th behind them + Brees.
Eli's passer rating in the 4th is only 2 points above his career average, but I'd be willing to bet that's almost exclusively because of last season.
Eli's passer rating in the 4th is only 2 points above his career average, but I'd be willing to bet that's almost exclusively because of last season.
Roethlisberger is not clutch, the Steelers defense has just been amazing basically his entire career :@
You were defending Eli's poor completion percentage by saying he has no receivers. Yet Josh Freeman and Matt Hasselbeck had better completion percentages with significantly worse receivers.
Basically I'm saying Eli is overrated and you're doing a bad job defending his faults.
Not going to sit here and compare Eli to them lol, if you want to compare Eli to Romo or Rivers and maybe Brees then i'm game. Otherwise i have no clue what you are talking about or why you insist in bringing up those two guys who i'm pretty sure i have never even mentioned in this thread. Ever.
But again, if you are up to discuss why Eli is better than Romo/River then tell me so.
For someone who loves numbers you believe in the dumbest things (clutch, luck, coincidence, stats etc)
I am not discrediting either team but yesterday the entire 4th quarter of the cowboy's offensive gameplan was "throw the ball to the receiver defended by justin tryon" because he was the giants 5th string CB and a special teams player who is never expected to play in a real game. Cowboys 1-2 (and now 3 with the emergence of ogletree) receivers are not "elite" by themselves, but are quite potent because of how they can spread the field when together. each has a slightly different skillset that they excel in and pretty much forced the giants to pick one to let the ball get to in the 4th quarter. Victor Cruz dropped 3 catchable balls throughout the course of the game, not singling him out but thats the facts. Both teams played pretty good, but kept making some mistakes at key points, and eventually (whether you call it luck or timing, or the giants beating themselves internally) the cowboys came out on top.
Seriously, the final drives of that game by the cowboys were horrid to watch as a football fan. Rarely do you see mismatches like that get exploited so consistently in the course of a few drives/a whole game. Giants lack of a real running threat really hurt them as well, but besides getting more touches neither back was really special. Murray had his 40 yard run, ahmad had a 30 yarder, and other than that you could count on one hand the amount of times each of them had a run over 6 yards.
On a positive note for giants fans, Bennett seems to finally be succeeding after the years of semihype of a 2TE threat system in dallas. he should continue succeeding, not like the giants have anyone else threatening his job right now though. Also interested in seeing if Hixon will remain at the slot/3 receiver or if Barden/one of the rookies will slowly integrate in/get shoved into the role.
Seriously, the final drives of that game by the cowboys were horrid to watch as a football fan. Rarely do you see mismatches like that get exploited so consistently in the course of a few drives/a whole game. Giants lack of a real running threat really hurt them as well, but besides getting more touches neither back was really special. Murray had his 40 yard run, ahmad had a 30 yarder, and other than that you could count on one hand the amount of times each of them had a run over 6 yards.
On a positive note for giants fans, Bennett seems to finally be succeeding after the years of semihype of a 2TE threat system in dallas. he should continue succeeding, not like the giants have anyone else threatening his job right now though. Also interested in seeing if Hixon will remain at the slot/3 receiver or if Barden/one of the rookies will slowly integrate in/get shoved into the role.
I blame the entire game on Kevin Gilbride. It started with him and just trickled down to the whole team. Fewell however was not much better and is still extremely arrogant and plain dumb. Scrapping everything that worked in that 6 game win streak in favor of going back to mediocrity. But again, glad it was week one and hopefully both get slapped because so far the Giants have won in spite of them.
Perhaps the Giants are just waiting to get hot until later in the season so they can make another run like last year?
Ugh, can't wait til Sunday. I hate the one game teaser and then 4 days off before everything else.
EDIT: Found this and thought it was funny. I particularly enjoyed the part where Solomon Wilcots questioned Ben Roethlisberger's durability
Ugh, can't wait til Sunday. I hate the one game teaser and then 4 days off before everything else.
EDIT: Found this and thought it was funny. I particularly enjoyed the part where Solomon Wilcots questioned Ben Roethlisberger's durability
literally all my thoughts exactly... QFT. You don't know how frustrating it is as a fan to see the Giants defense playing pretty damn well and then Romo (who made some nice plays w/ his feet I won't deny that) can just pass to whoever is being covered by Justin Tryon/Michael Coe. It was unbearable to watch at points and I couldnt even get mad at the Giants because honestly they were fucked from the get-go.
Not Tryons fault. Like i have been saying for a while now, the Cowboys exploited our weaknesses well but in the end it was Gilbride who doomed us. The defense was playing well, hell Coe was actually good, but Gilbride squandered it. After the INT he goes straight into two running plays.. Seriously? We need a TD and this fucker goes the absolutely weakest part of the Giants team? I don't understand the logic. We have to play with our strenghts, not using our weaknesses. I can understand his want to set the run game, but why the fudge would this tart do it in the red zone after an INT?? And worst of all he had the nerve to basically tell the other team they were running. Why the fudge didn't he have Nicks or sonething to at least make it look like you might pass and not go to the thing you havent been able to do the whole game. Gilbrides lack of urgency really screwed us over just like it did last year. He doesnt seem to believe in trying to get the lead. And once the defense was worned out thanks to his stupid 3 and outs, he finally decides to play to our strenghts.. mostly. That 3 and out near the end of the 3rd quater was just plain pathetic and needs to be shot for that one. At the end, he told Eli "i know i single handedly placed us in this position, but can you pwease bail my ass out again? ". If it weren't for Eli i doubt we would have scored more than 3 points.
We need to give up on the run. Become a passing team which will then magically open our run game. Actually, just let Eli go no huddle the whole damn game and let him do as he pleases. It worked in all those amazing 4th quater comebacks, imagine what he could do if he could afford to make mistakes while doing it. Wasting so much talent that it sickens me.
We need to give up on the run. Become a passing team which will then magically open our run game. Actually, just let Eli go no huddle the whole damn game and let him do as he pleases. It worked in all those amazing 4th quater comebacks, imagine what he could do if he could afford to make mistakes while doing it. Wasting so much talent that it sickens me.
Oh come on guys. CaptKirby, you even mention that Eli airs it out more than Romo to discredit Eli's yards, but don't take into account that taking more deep shots leads to a lower completion rate? Eli's completion % was 5% lower than Romo's, but his Y/A was still higher (8.4 to 8, as for the others mentioned - Freeman 6.5, Alex Smith 7.1, etc, Matt Ryan 7.4).
Your response will probably be to discredit his yards because of Cruz, but taking away Cruz and his 131 targets (http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=8199003&wjb=) and his 1500 yards, Eli averaged about 7.5 Y/A. And that's not really fair because you'd be assuming that someone else doesn't take over for Cruz as a deep threat - if you do the same with Brady and take away Moss' 159 targets for 1500 yards in 2007, his Y/A drops from 8.7 to 7.9. Do the same with Rodgers and take away Nelson's 95 targets for 1250 yards (http://www.kffl.com/player/18256/nfl/utilization/jordy-nelson?uyear=2011) and his Y/A drops from 9.2 to 8.3.
Tony Romo's a great quarterback, no doubt about it. The one thing that Romo does better than Manning is that he doesn't throw as many interceptions.
But Manning can improve on the interceptions. Gilbride's offensive system depends a lot on reads after the snap - which works great when the receivers and QB are on the same page, but it's also why you'll see Manning seemingly throw to nobody (accounts for a good portion of his interceptions). It's why Steve Smith and Toomer played such important roles in the offense - not because of amazing athleticism but because they knew the system (and it's why Hixon is the 3rd receiver now even after 2 ACL injuries as opposed to Randle or Jernigan). Gilbride ran a similar system with the Houston Oilers, and Warren Moon threw for a lot of yards/TDs but also high numbers of interceptions.
Since 2006, the receiver with the most receptions has changed every year except between 2008 and 2009 (2006 - Shockey, 2007 - Burress, 2008 - Steve Smith, 2009 - Steve Smith, 2010 - Nicks, 2011 - Cruz). Generally, Eli has had only 2/3 years at most to develop chemistry with his targets over the years before having to start over with new receivers, and I think it's hurt his development. We'll see how he plays this year with Cruz in his second year (ignoring his injured 1st year) and Nicks in his fourth.
Your response will probably be to discredit his yards because of Cruz, but taking away Cruz and his 131 targets (http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=8199003&wjb=) and his 1500 yards, Eli averaged about 7.5 Y/A. And that's not really fair because you'd be assuming that someone else doesn't take over for Cruz as a deep threat - if you do the same with Brady and take away Moss' 159 targets for 1500 yards in 2007, his Y/A drops from 8.7 to 7.9. Do the same with Rodgers and take away Nelson's 95 targets for 1250 yards (http://www.kffl.com/player/18256/nfl/utilization/jordy-nelson?uyear=2011) and his Y/A drops from 9.2 to 8.3.
Tony Romo's a great quarterback, no doubt about it. The one thing that Romo does better than Manning is that he doesn't throw as many interceptions.
But Manning can improve on the interceptions. Gilbride's offensive system depends a lot on reads after the snap - which works great when the receivers and QB are on the same page, but it's also why you'll see Manning seemingly throw to nobody (accounts for a good portion of his interceptions). It's why Steve Smith and Toomer played such important roles in the offense - not because of amazing athleticism but because they knew the system (and it's why Hixon is the 3rd receiver now even after 2 ACL injuries as opposed to Randle or Jernigan). Gilbride ran a similar system with the Houston Oilers, and Warren Moon threw for a lot of yards/TDs but also high numbers of interceptions.
Since 2006, the receiver with the most receptions has changed every year except between 2008 and 2009 (2006 - Shockey, 2007 - Burress, 2008 - Steve Smith, 2009 - Steve Smith, 2010 - Nicks, 2011 - Cruz). Generally, Eli has had only 2/3 years at most to develop chemistry with his targets over the years before having to start over with new receivers, and I think it's hurt his development. We'll see how he plays this year with Cruz in his second year (ignoring his injured 1st year) and Nicks in his fourth.
Or I could just point out how Romo still has a higher completion percentage on Balls thrown over 20 yards than Eli, and was one of the best in the league at doing it last year. Sure it harms Eli for throwing it a lot more often, but that's not an argument to say that equalizes Eli against Romo. If Romo threw deep balls more often, he'd probably be able to get more yards out of each attempt than Eli.
Eli made 43 completions on such balls from 109 attempts, to Romo's 32 completions on only 61 attempts (39.4% to 52.5% respectively). Romo was 13/2 TD/Int on those balls to Eli's 12/7. (Romo also had 1166 yards for 19.1 ypa, to Eli's 1490 yards and 13.7 ypa)
Eli is Brett Favre 2.0. He's entertaining. His ability to elude Pass Rush and how he chucks the ball up despite the risk creates great tension and drama. Eli can make big plays, whether they be positive or negative is irrelevant. In terms of actual skill at the position, like Brett Favre, he is statistically nothing that special, and is supremely overhyped because he makes big plays while the mistakes are fondly ignored. Like Brett Favre, Eli will throw up big numbers one year, making him seem amazing, and then the law of averages will come back and he'll throw 20 interceptions the next.
And I'm fine if you like Eli as a QB, because he is pretty good, and so was Brett Favre. And I'd be damned if I didn't say he was entertaining. But holy shit he is not an Elite Passer and stop trying to pass off one season as if it's change, when he's blatantly showed his propensity to be binary and inconsistent throughout his career.
@thevalkyries
That's fair. I'm not knocking Romo or anything, and if anything, talking/arguing about Eli with you guys has helped me put him in better perspective. (A lot of that last post was more driven by the comparisons between Eli and guys like Freeman) I'm not arguing that he's elite like pre-injury Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, or Brady, but it seems that he's solidly in that second tier of QBs with Romo, Rivers, etc. I guess the one disagreement we have is whether last year was an anomaly or not. I don't think it is, and that I think he can improve, but really, there's no point in arguing about that.
Here's to a good season.
That's fair. I'm not knocking Romo or anything, and if anything, talking/arguing about Eli with you guys has helped me put him in better perspective. (A lot of that last post was more driven by the comparisons between Eli and guys like Freeman) I'm not arguing that he's elite like pre-injury Peyton, Rodgers, Brees, or Brady, but it seems that he's solidly in that second tier of QBs with Romo, Rivers, etc. I guess the one disagreement we have is whether last year was an anomaly or not. I don't think it is, and that I think he can improve, but really, there's no point in arguing about that.
Here's to a good season.
Guess who has egg on their face now
Though this is going to make Saint fans unbearable to listen to.
Though this is going to make Saint fans unbearable to listen to.
Why does this matter? Hargrove and Fujita arent even on the team. They get Vilma back but who knows if he's in good shape and the Saints already signed Curtis Lofton to a big contract to replace him, so good luck fitting him in. The only significant player is Will Smith and he was only gone for 4 games. Its not like Sean Payton or Gregg Williams are coming back.
It's not really that they get back Vilma and Smith, it's more of that fact that at least in the Saints eyes, Rodger Goodell was wrong.
http://m.nfl.com/news/0ap1000000059374/forbes-bills-most-troubled-franchise-in-the-nfl/
I didn't know about this! This is good! When a player is getting payed roughly 10% of a teams worth you know you have a problem. Best way to fix this? Move to Los Angeles!
However, the only way they move is if they go 2-14/3-13 etc. If they do their is no point in staying in such a small market. Plus then they have a good shot of getting Matt Barkley and starting over. They could become a powerhouse very fast with an elite prospect, that defense and a pansy division within a wimpy conference.
Let's hope for a 1-15 season guys
I didn't know about this! This is good! When a player is getting payed roughly 10% of a teams worth you know you have a problem. Best way to fix this? Move to Los Angeles!
However, the only way they move is if they go 2-14/3-13 etc. If they do their is no point in staying in such a small market. Plus then they have a good shot of getting Matt Barkley and starting over. They could become a powerhouse very fast with an elite prospect, that defense and a pansy division within a wimpy conference.
Let's hope for a 1-15 season guys
Mercy, getting Vilma back is a huge deal. Thanks to injuries they were suffering, the Saints' linebackers were looking less and less formidable. Plug a presumably healthy Vilma in (I'm certain he hasn't been twiddling his thumbs at home, if he thought this suspension might be overturned he's been working out all summer) and he'll be a big upgrade over whomever he's replacing. Add to that the fact that he's the leader of the defense and the one who relays calls to everyone else, and it'll be a huge deal for the Saints. Not to mention the fact that it's a giant emotional boost headed into the season.
On that note, I'm pretty sure he'll move to outside linebacker if he turns out to be OK enough to play (though he won't be playing this weekend, obviously).
Be honest - from the start, it was never about what Vilma himself did. He was a scapegoat for the defense, so the league didn't have to issue short bans for every other player who got paid any money from this program or put any money into it. It was definitely unfair to him, but it was probably for the best for his team. Now with this successful appeal, Goodell looks like an idiot (though apparently he has the power to reverse this decision) and it makes the Saints and Vilma look like the victims, even if both were guilty.
On that note, I'm pretty sure he'll move to outside linebacker if he turns out to be OK enough to play (though he won't be playing this weekend, obviously).
Be honest - from the start, it was never about what Vilma himself did. He was a scapegoat for the defense, so the league didn't have to issue short bans for every other player who got paid any money from this program or put any money into it. It was definitely unfair to him, but it was probably for the best for his team. Now with this successful appeal, Goodell looks like an idiot (though apparently he has the power to reverse this decision) and it makes the Saints and Vilma look like the victims, even if both were guilty.
They don't have to move divisions. However, this would the perfect time to move the Rams out of the NFC "West". They go to the AFC East... At least it will make more sense than being in the "West". Now that i think about it, that would make a lot of sense and the NFC West would suddenly be filled with teams in the west. But again, no reason at all to switch anything as teams are used to using airplanes.
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