-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby
- Thread starter Iconic
- Start date
- Status
The team doesn't have to be centered around Voltturn. Just having Rotom-W, Scizor, and four other Pokemon that can actually use attacks ruins your strategy. If you lead with Ninjask, Scizor's U-turns will always break your Subs, so I can simply lead off with him and go into Rotom-W. You have to pass into Celebi before Ninjask is in Bullet Punch range, so from there, I will go into Scizor again.
This is where you lose the game: if you're not Modest or Fire Gem HP Fire, Scizor will force you to pass again or lose Celebi. If you kill Scizor, I can go straight into a Dragon and start spamming attacks or boosts. Say, Dragonite. Rocks aren't up, so you can't kill him. Lum Berry circumvents spore, Extremespeed dumps on Mr. Mime if it wants to Encore. Offensive teams will not give you any room to breathe, so Baton Pass teams are really only praying that the opponent isn't smart enough to beat them.
I don't see how VoltTurn shuts down Baton Pass, saying so is being very ignorant.
Say I lead with Ninjask and you lead with Rotom-W, I protect as you Volt Switch presumably, I sub. You go to Scizor. You BP, I live and go to Scizor or Gorebyss or Vaporeon, and I get a boost since I have +3 speed. Venomoth can sleep a Pokemon, Smeargle as well, making this somewhat easier. Leading with Scizor just gets me a +2 or +3 speed boost, so by all means do that! And Genesect is just set-up Speed bait.
In the situation you described, that's just dumb. Celebi isn't used at all 9_9
Say I lead with Ninjask and you lead with Rotom-W, I protect as you Volt Switch presumably, I sub. You go to Scizor. You BP, I live and go to Scizor or Gorebyss or Vaporeon, and I get a boost since I have +3 speed. Venomoth can sleep a Pokemon, Smeargle as well, making this somewhat easier. Leading with Scizor just gets me a +2 or +3 speed boost, so by all means do that! And Genesect is just set-up Speed bait.
In the situation you described, that's just dumb. Celebi isn't used at all 9_9
I've never seen a Venomoth chain either. I'm only talking about the Baton Pass teams I've seen and played against. Some of them used Umbreon, so I'm not talking about those, but I've seen my fair share use Celebi, Mr. Mime, and sometimes Mawile.
Replace 'Celebi' with 'Rotom counter destroyed by U-turn'. Do make sure your Rotom counters all have powerful Fire moves?
Replace 'Celebi' with 'Rotom counter destroyed by U-turn'. Do make sure your Rotom counters all have powerful Fire moves?
What was once a conversation that focused on Kyurem-B as a baton pass recipient has turned into a general discussion on VoltTurn and baton pass teams, which would better be suited for the BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread. Let's try to stay on topic here; you're more than welcome to talk about Kyurem-B's relation to those teams, but the recent points being made have been about BW2 in general and present little "new" information to this suspect round.
Why do you even think Celebi is being used? Iron Defense, Taunt, Amnesia, BP Mew can easily Iron defense on the u-turn and not be threatened by the next Volt switch. In another scenario, Specially Defensive Zapdos isn't threatened by Rotom at all and you're not going to Volt switch to Scizor, obviously. If you go to Tyranitar, Vaporeon is always a safe switch in unless you're using band. EDIT: Did not see Birkal's post. Will stop discussing the matter.
Anyway, after testing Kyurem-B at least somewhat extensively, It's OK I guess. It's not bad at all. It's Mixed Sub set is definitely more effectie than CB or scarf, so I think that something along that line is going to become its standard set if it comes to OU. I've seen a few non-scarfed Flash Cannon Genesects, which has been surprising when I run into it. I don't know if that's going to become a normal thing or if people are just overpreparing for kyurem, and it will eventually die down.
I've found Scarf Kyurem-B to be a terror once Steels are dead. Outspeeds everything else that isn't scarfed and almost always OHKOs with Outrage. Scarf Terrakion checks, MP Breloom checks (but can't OHKO), and that's about it. I've paired mine with a Magnezone to somewhat decent success, but I think it's best late game once everything else is dead or weakened.
I did a little run with a team with Kyurem-B in it and Kyurem-B, I have to say, was a non-factor in a lot of the matches I had. It was a team that I made by myself and I actually peaked at 9th on the ladder which I am COMPLETELY satisfied with. My thoughts on Kyurem-B in OU: I think he'll come down to OU. It's bulk and attack stat are MONSTROUS, but it doesn't have the best physical coverage. If Kyurem-B got Icicle Crash, then IDK what would happen with it.
The same thing can be said for Salamence, who also outspeeds scarfed Genesect. I guess the surprise of a scarfed Kyu-b could have something going for it, but I'm not sure that it's worth it, really, since the scarfed set is going to have similar switchins and the pokemon who commonly revenge it that carry scarves will still outspeed it.
I agree from what I have seen i have been mainly using chomp and salamence to compare to it while on the ladder and slamence preforms so much better as a scarfer, mainly due to that higher speed and moxie more often or not gives him the way to power through teams late game, while kyruem has to fight against other choice scarfers and priority users, which salamence contends with to a much lesser extent resisting brelooms match punch, top that off mence has a fantastic move pool which allows him to hit super effective damage against whats left of the opponents team.
Choice scarf chomp is on a similar boat to mence, lacking mences move pool and nice special attack but gaining a troll like speed and typing that would make pokemon such as scarf terrakion think twice before letting off a close combat at the risk of being flat out koed back. choice band chomp has much better coverage than kyruem in earthquake and it's dragon stab moves, hitting ferrothorn much harder than kyruem as an example and that fantastic typing giving him a weakness to ice and dragon with only fear of ice shard as a priority, while kyruem has to worry about base 100 speed pokemon namely salamence, fighting, steel, rock type moves, speaking rock type moves, kyruem has a sr weakness while chomp dose not and the importance of this is garchomp can switch in with impunity while sr is on the field, while kyruem switches in and witches into the ko range of breloom and scizor, niether of whom have a dream of koing garchomp while he can ko breloom with out much fuss, althrough scior is an issue if locked into outrage. All and all garchomp has a varity of aspects that make him a better choice user, a better move pool, better typing, sr ressitance, ect.
This whole ladder experience has been really shitty tbh. I've been watching ala ladder all day, after laddering to reqs myself yesterday, and I saw a grand total of maybe 20 kyurem-b in the 150+ matches between us two. I've honestly seen like two today, which makes it really hard to decide on how to vote, as I'm pretty on the fence tbh. Everyone is using the same rain team (Toed / Nado-T / Ferro / Tenta / Duggy / Gene), which gets really annoying quickly. I've seen that team in probably 7 out of 10 matches today. Playing against that team a few times is a pain, but playing against it every match gets really tedious quickly.
I have found that too, but it dose not say much for kyruem if he is not getting used in the susspect ladder, all these people sseem to care about is getting voting rights are kyruem is too much of a liability to get them.
i want to be the guy too create a creative kyurem-b set so here goes
Kyurem-Black @ Light Clay
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
kyurem b has huge bulk and is capable of hitting hard whilst setting up screens and roosting off some of the damage it takes. dual screens helps great team mates such as salamence and dragonite and to a certain extent garchomp set up and sweep. i have had some success with the set and has caught multiple players off guard. spin support is vital for this set and its team mates too succeed. tentacruel is a great team mate as it can wall scizor which is a big threat to this kyurem b. and a multitude of other steel types.
Kyurem-Black @ Light Clay
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Light Screen
- Reflect
- Dragon Claw
- Roost
kyurem b has huge bulk and is capable of hitting hard whilst setting up screens and roosting off some of the damage it takes. dual screens helps great team mates such as salamence and dragonite and to a certain extent garchomp set up and sweep. i have had some success with the set and has caught multiple players off guard. spin support is vital for this set and its team mates too succeed. tentacruel is a great team mate as it can wall scizor which is a big threat to this kyurem b. and a multitude of other steel types.
And there was so many people using Kyurem-B on the first day then its usage drop significantly afterwards. I think people saw that Kyurem-B was a liability to their team and could have been replaced with a better Dragon. I still see Drag2Mag teams from time to time on the ladder but this time most of them don't even run Kyurem-B.
I know I said this on a earlier post itt but in the limited matches that I saw Kyurem-B it wasn't all that good. Some matches where it failed to KO anyone and was pretty much something they used for death fodder. But to be fair I only saw one set on it, some Substitute set, Fusion Bolt, Dragon Claw set. I feel like people haven't tapped into its "potential"
I know I said this on a earlier post itt but in the limited matches that I saw Kyurem-B it wasn't all that good. Some matches where it failed to KO anyone and was pretty much something they used for death fodder. But to be fair I only saw one set on it, some Substitute set, Fusion Bolt, Dragon Claw set. I feel like people haven't tapped into its "potential"
Unlike most, I have gotten Reqs actually using the Suspect so I can see how powerful it is myself, instead of running into Valentine's rain team every other battle and not finding a Kyurem-B in sight.
The team I used consisted of:
Offensive Abomasnow / Subsitute + 3 Attacks Kyurem-B / Heatran / Tentacruel / ChestoRest Cresselia / Scarf Genesect
I decided to go for a hail team with Paralysis support in Cresselia (I don't run Tspikes on Tenta) to support Kyurem-B in getting free Subs, and I must say Kyurem-B has killed a poke in pretty much every team. I opted for Blizzard instead of Roost on its last move to slam Hippowdon and Gliscor who would otherwise wall the set, and do nice damage to Ferrothorn-- it hasn't let me down. Kyurem-B is just a powerful Pokemon in general, and from playing I'm still undecided if it's banworthy or not.. but it's more versatile than people are saying, and it pretty much wrecks all stall.. :/
The team I used consisted of:
Offensive Abomasnow / Subsitute + 3 Attacks Kyurem-B / Heatran / Tentacruel / ChestoRest Cresselia / Scarf Genesect
I decided to go for a hail team with Paralysis support in Cresselia (I don't run Tspikes on Tenta) to support Kyurem-B in getting free Subs, and I must say Kyurem-B has killed a poke in pretty much every team. I opted for Blizzard instead of Roost on its last move to slam Hippowdon and Gliscor who would otherwise wall the set, and do nice damage to Ferrothorn-- it hasn't let me down. Kyurem-B is just a powerful Pokemon in general, and from playing I'm still undecided if it's banworthy or not.. but it's more versatile than people are saying, and it pretty much wrecks all stall.. :/
Kyurem B is just crazy and I have no idea why people would want to ever unban it ever.
Sub + 3 Attacks has literally almost nothing that can safely switch into it, band is pretty similar, and even stuff like Power Herb can be used for a random Ice attack if that floats your boat.
I played with it on PO a while back (it's legal there) and it's absolutely crazy OP. Sure, it has more checks than a supermarket list. But counters? Something that can switch in and not get 2HKOd by it? And HP Fire isn't bad on it either (people forget you have 120 base SAtk, that's only 10 less than Latios), base 170 attack, it can make 404 subs pretty easily, base 170 attack, Fusion Bolt, BASE 170 ATTACK...
Defenses are 125/120/90, which, if you don't know, is pretty damn good when you have BASE 170 ATTACK. That is, by the way, 20 more base attack than Deo-N, and it is wayyy bulkier.
People always like to talk about Ferro being able to check it, and hey, it does pretty well, even counters a good deal of Kyu B. But Ferro does the same for PLENTY of Ubers. Which is probably why it's used so much in Ubers. It checks non-Specs Kyogre (actually tbh it counters most of them), checks Giratina-A, good deal of EK Arceus, Rayquaza without Overheat, most Deo-A, etc. and I don't know that we'd EVER unban ANY of those (the only one that might be would be Giratina-A).
So there's my arguement, take it for what it's worth.
Sub + 3 Attacks has literally almost nothing that can safely switch into it, band is pretty similar, and even stuff like Power Herb can be used for a random Ice attack if that floats your boat.
I played with it on PO a while back (it's legal there) and it's absolutely crazy OP. Sure, it has more checks than a supermarket list. But counters? Something that can switch in and not get 2HKOd by it? And HP Fire isn't bad on it either (people forget you have 120 base SAtk, that's only 10 less than Latios), base 170 attack, it can make 404 subs pretty easily, base 170 attack, Fusion Bolt, BASE 170 ATTACK...
Defenses are 125/120/90, which, if you don't know, is pretty damn good when you have BASE 170 ATTACK. That is, by the way, 20 more base attack than Deo-N, and it is wayyy bulkier.
People always like to talk about Ferro being able to check it, and hey, it does pretty well, even counters a good deal of Kyu B. But Ferro does the same for PLENTY of Ubers. Which is probably why it's used so much in Ubers. It checks non-Specs Kyogre (actually tbh it counters most of them), checks Giratina-A, good deal of EK Arceus, Rayquaza without Overheat, most Deo-A, etc. and I don't know that we'd EVER unban ANY of those (the only one that might be would be Giratina-A).
So there's my arguement, take it for what it's worth.
Kyurem-B is far from broken. I usually play on the PO server. You can joke all you want about how it's not as good as the competition on Smogon, but it's solid. On this server, Kyurem-B has been unbanned for 2 months or so. At first there was a lot of outcry over it, but once it was released, all the complaints disappeared.
The reason for this is it's lack of Dragon Dance, disappointing speed, weakness to priority at a time when Scizor is the number 1 Pokemon used in OU, (maybe 2). Its really just a worse Haxorus -- do 23 extra Attack points and Fusion Bolt make that much difference? Are they worth a weakness to Bullet Punch, Stealth Rock, and a lack of Dragon Dance? On PO, it is ranked 92nd in the usage stats, right behind OU powerhouses like Zoroark and Whimsicott -- remember it has been legal for months there, so people are able understand its power. I used it for many games, CB, Scarf, SubRoost, and Sub + 3 Attacks, and every time I did, I found myself wishing I had brought Dragonite instead.
It's a threat you should worry about, and yeah it does wreck stall -- but Genesect, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, and Sheer Force Landorus have already done that, and it's not much threat to offense, so what's the point? Hydregion has no counters either, and look how useful he is. What counters Specs Keldeo in Rain? Not much. Is he broken?
^Edit: Deo-N is broken because he has base 150 speed, Rayquazza because of its greater effective bulk, given its typing. Give that to Kyurem-B, and I would ban him in a heartbeat lol
The reason for this is it's lack of Dragon Dance, disappointing speed, weakness to priority at a time when Scizor is the number 1 Pokemon used in OU, (maybe 2). Its really just a worse Haxorus -- do 23 extra Attack points and Fusion Bolt make that much difference? Are they worth a weakness to Bullet Punch, Stealth Rock, and a lack of Dragon Dance? On PO, it is ranked 92nd in the usage stats, right behind OU powerhouses like Zoroark and Whimsicott -- remember it has been legal for months there, so people are able understand its power. I used it for many games, CB, Scarf, SubRoost, and Sub + 3 Attacks, and every time I did, I found myself wishing I had brought Dragonite instead.
It's a threat you should worry about, and yeah it does wreck stall -- but Genesect, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, and Sheer Force Landorus have already done that, and it's not much threat to offense, so what's the point? Hydregion has no counters either, and look how useful he is. What counters Specs Keldeo in Rain? Not much. Is he broken?
^Edit: Deo-N is broken because he has base 150 speed, Rayquazza because of its greater effective bulk, given its typing. Give that to Kyurem-B, and I would ban him in a heartbeat lol
I still can't understand why anyone would use a Choiced set. Its typing is actually pretty fantastic, giving it a free Sub against a good portion of the metagame. Instead of using sets which treat it like an auto-win Dragon, which it clearly isn't in this metagame, just think of it as an upgraded regular Kyurem. The team Bri posted is a good example, but it works outside of Hail too.
Using PO stats is about the shittiest arguement i can think of; no offense to you but I just want to tell you this now so you don't put your faith into them.
When Deo-N was legal on PO, and I mean legal for a while, it had less than 4% usage. On the DW ladder, Zapdos had a higher usage than Thundurus and was at like 17 at one point or another.
Sub/HP Fire Kyu B beats Scizor withut a problem, and Hyreigon doesn't have counters? Lol ok.
When Deo-N was legal on PO, and I mean legal for a while, it had less than 4% usage. On the DW ladder, Zapdos had a higher usage than Thundurus and was at like 17 at one point or another.
Sub/HP Fire Kyu B beats Scizor withut a problem, and Hyreigon doesn't have counters? Lol ok.
So I made requirements for the test, here are my thoughts on the subject: Kyurem-B. I think that Kyurem-B is a monster of a pokemon with a crazy amount of attack and bulk to utilize a choice band or a substitute/3 attack set with ease. Unfortunately I did not see many Kyurem-B in the later stages of testing (I used Kyurem-B for around 40 matches and played at least 100 matches afterward without Kyurem-B) and honestly it is hard to tell if Kyurem-B is broken for the sole reason that I did not see it often.
I am pretty close to making requirements, and so far I have seen nothing huge about Kyurem - B at all, I really don't think it is that good. But, I think it is a pretty decent Pokemon. Kyurem - B gets a massive attack stat and very solid Special Attacking stat too, so it can perform pretty well as a mixed sweeper. However, the most popular set so far is that Substitute Dragon Claw Fusion Bolt Roost set, which is actually pretty decent. It varies with stuff like Ice Beam, Blizzard, and Hidden Power Fire, but I really am not sure what spread people are using on that thing. It is very bulky thanks to that huge HP stat to make up for it's average defense and special defense, and it seems to be a really cool Pokemon to use.
My point was that Kyurem-B isn't broken, which seems to be the general agreement of this thread. Hydregion does not have any counters -- the on-site analysis agrees with me, so don't make it sound like that's stupid. My point is that Kyurem-B is not broken whatsoever, if it was as Uber as you claim, then it would get more usage, just like the (possibly uber) Genesect does.
Just because something doesn't have counters doesn't make it broken by any means, look at Terrakion, Keldeo, and Hydregion.
EDIT: removed irrelevant arguement
The argument that something is broken because it's uncounterable is ridiculous. We judge what is broken in the same way we judge how good a pokemon is - opportunity cost. How effective will this pokemon be over the course of an average battle? Hydreigon will usually do massive damage when it comes in (although when its used by typical ladder players we all know how easy it is to predict around). However, it really struggles to come in safely except against defensive teams. Compare to Genesect, which doesn't usually cause the same immediate damage regardless of what it U-turns to, but which has the opportunity to come in again and again. I know some people will argue that Genesect is uncounterable thanks to U-turn (and I kinda agree), so here's another example. Terrakion has a few hard counters, and a lot of things which are extremely good checks (Hippowdon, Gliscor, Slowbro, Tangrowth, Landorus-T etc), and a huge number of revenge killers for most sets. However, its vastly more popular than Hydreigon because its typing and stat distribution allow it come in much more regularly in this metagame than the dragon, while very few people in this offensive meta use those things which can easily tank its hits. Obviously, if the metagame suddenly became absolutely dominated by stall, Hydreigon would be everywhere and might even be accused of being broken.
Just saying, these standardised definitions of what should make a pokemon Uber are stupidly outdated, so please don't refer to them in arguments.
Just saying, these standardised definitions of what should make a pokemon Uber are stupidly outdated, so please don't refer to them in arguments.
- Status