-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby
- Thread starter Iconic
- Start date
- Status
Apologies about listing another 5 OU keldeo counters :P
I think Kyurem-B is fine, I noticed people in this thread ridiculed PO a little earlier but PO's tiers are fine, arguing things like that their usage stats can't be trusted is irrelevant, thats opinion. I personally find it unbelievable that chansey remained UU on smogon.. or that mienshao lasted so long in OU, it goes both ways.
Kyurem-B is strong, thats a given, but requires significant support to leave an impact, as others have mentioned, despite its bulk it fears all hazards and multiple forms of priority. It's main selling point over traditional hard hitting dragons is that it requires no set-up (in the case of dragonite/haxorus) nor is it weak to ice shard (Haxorus/salamence/dragonite/garchomp).
Kyurem-B is proof of the significance of a metagame in shaping a pokemon's viability, it has a 700BST and is being considered for OU! It's potentially sharing a tier with Dugtrio (405 BST)... I think jumping to conclusions due to impressive offensive stats is not the way to go with deciding its fate.
I think Kyurem-B is fine, I noticed people in this thread ridiculed PO a little earlier but PO's tiers are fine, arguing things like that their usage stats can't be trusted is irrelevant, thats opinion. I personally find it unbelievable that chansey remained UU on smogon.. or that mienshao lasted so long in OU, it goes both ways.
Kyurem-B is strong, thats a given, but requires significant support to leave an impact, as others have mentioned, despite its bulk it fears all hazards and multiple forms of priority. It's main selling point over traditional hard hitting dragons is that it requires no set-up (in the case of dragonite/haxorus) nor is it weak to ice shard (Haxorus/salamence/dragonite/garchomp).
Kyurem-B is proof of the significance of a metagame in shaping a pokemon's viability, it has a 700BST and is being considered for OU! It's potentially sharing a tier with Dugtrio (405 BST)... I think jumping to conclusions due to impressive offensive stats is not the way to go with deciding its fate.
Fuck guys stop talkin about Celebi or Keldeo or shits I dont care :|
Seing the response on this thread it seems like the probability of Kyurem-B being released at the end of the round is huge. Sigh, I really appreciate the enthusiasm on your laddering, problem is, the suspect is hardly on half of the teams so it's hard to tell whether it's broken or not.
Personally, yes, I think Kyurem-B is handleable for OU, but its presence doesnt promote healthier metagame (isnt that the principle of (un)banning pokemon?). If 'handleable' is the sole reason of doing this, then the same reason can be used for multitude of Ubers which is a sad thing. Ho-oh is always at 50% when SR is up, Darkrai lost to priority (Dark Void? Tell that to Techniloom), and Skymin is... Well, Skymin.
So I wish Kyu-B stay in Uber.
Seing the response on this thread it seems like the probability of Kyurem-B being released at the end of the round is huge. Sigh, I really appreciate the enthusiasm on your laddering, problem is, the suspect is hardly on half of the teams so it's hard to tell whether it's broken or not.
Personally, yes, I think Kyurem-B is handleable for OU, but its presence doesnt promote healthier metagame (isnt that the principle of (un)banning pokemon?). If 'handleable' is the sole reason of doing this, then the same reason can be used for multitude of Ubers which is a sad thing. Ho-oh is always at 50% when SR is up, Darkrai lost to priority (Dark Void? Tell that to Techniloom), and Skymin is... Well, Skymin.
So I wish Kyu-B stay in Uber.
Kyurem-B can destroy any stall team with the combination of Dragon Claw / Outrage, Fusion Bolt and Ice Beam / Blizzard but luckily it's easy to revenge-kill (Scizor's Bullet Punch, Terrakion's Close Combat and so on...) and it's weak to Stealth Rock.
However, I'm very curious to see the results of the suspect.
However, I'm very curious to see the results of the suspect.
I apologize for my earlier dismissal of stall- I did not mean to be disrespectful of anyone who has used this playstyle effectively and has devoted many long hours to using stall far better than I ever could.
I suppose my point was more along the lines of this: it is so apparent to me that this pokemon is not broken if you utilize the numerous things in this metagame that destroy it. If you get over the idea that you have to run a stall team and run a Choice Scarfed Terrakion- this thing will not outspeed you and you can KO with close combat. If you run a CB Scizor, you will have a 100% accuracy priority move also with a 100% chance to KO after SR. These pokemon (especially the scarfed terrakion) can also revenge many other pokemon (hydreigon, cm keldeo) that give stall teams huge problems. At one point does it become shortsighted not to run these pokemon just so you can still run a pure stall team?
It reminds me of my hail team I've been running lately with 0 hail resists outside of abomasnow. Full-on hail is hardly a viable way to play in this metagame, but a bulky-pivot weatherless momentum team with abomosnow to check rain and provide residual damage for an offensive team is pretty damn good. A pure stall team is probably not that good, but with a couple pokes that mitigate the flaws that the team has, it can become a fun-to-play, anti-metagame team.
Sub Kyurem-B destroys pure stall, but not this metagame whatsoever (think if genesects started running iron head for it). If a pokemon (actually, just think of conkeldurr) absolutely murdered dedicated hail teams but was easily checked by many top threats of the metagame, there would be no hullabaloo whatsoever over it being broken. This may be off-base, but I see a parallel between that and Kyurem-B with stall. Stall can still be viable, but it must adapt to the threats of the metagame just like any other style of play, and in many people's eyes, that makes it not stall anymore. I think at that point it just becomes a fight of labels and it's not really worth arguing about. I'd rather watch stall evolve than get rid of pokemon that aren't broken in order to preserve some idea of what stall should be. Is that better stated than last time?
I suppose my point was more along the lines of this: it is so apparent to me that this pokemon is not broken if you utilize the numerous things in this metagame that destroy it. If you get over the idea that you have to run a stall team and run a Choice Scarfed Terrakion- this thing will not outspeed you and you can KO with close combat. If you run a CB Scizor, you will have a 100% accuracy priority move also with a 100% chance to KO after SR. These pokemon (especially the scarfed terrakion) can also revenge many other pokemon (hydreigon, cm keldeo) that give stall teams huge problems. At one point does it become shortsighted not to run these pokemon just so you can still run a pure stall team?
It reminds me of my hail team I've been running lately with 0 hail resists outside of abomasnow. Full-on hail is hardly a viable way to play in this metagame, but a bulky-pivot weatherless momentum team with abomosnow to check rain and provide residual damage for an offensive team is pretty damn good. A pure stall team is probably not that good, but with a couple pokes that mitigate the flaws that the team has, it can become a fun-to-play, anti-metagame team.
Sub Kyurem-B destroys pure stall, but not this metagame whatsoever (think if genesects started running iron head for it). If a pokemon (actually, just think of conkeldurr) absolutely murdered dedicated hail teams but was easily checked by many top threats of the metagame, there would be no hullabaloo whatsoever over it being broken. This may be off-base, but I see a parallel between that and Kyurem-B with stall. Stall can still be viable, but it must adapt to the threats of the metagame just like any other style of play, and in many people's eyes, that makes it not stall anymore. I think at that point it just becomes a fight of labels and it's not really worth arguing about. I'd rather watch stall evolve than get rid of pokemon that aren't broken in order to preserve some idea of what stall should be. Is that better stated than last time?
Ok, hypothetically assuming that stall is still a thing in BW2 OU, I still don't think that Kyurem-B is that great of a stall breaker. It needs to run Hail support to turn into a true stall breaker, which is an investment in itself. Its subs sets are particular nasty in the hail, i'll give you that, but BW OU is filled with Pokemon that are "nasty" in their particular weather types.
It doesn't even that much of a presence in OU since we've had several suspect ladderers admit to barely seeing them. You can't have much of a toxic presence if you aren't even common.
It doesn't even that much of a presence in OU since we've had several suspect ladderers admit to barely seeing them. You can't have much of a toxic presence if you aren't even common.
Ok, I'm going to throw in my two cents about the metagame.
First off, I think people misunderstand about what these tests are all about. The tests are not whether to say if said Pokemon is too strong or not, it's if having that Pokemon there has a positive or averse effect on the metagame. For example, Excadrill had many hard counters, but it had an extremely detrimental effect on the metagame (breaking speed tiers, unoriginality of all teams, etc). Thus it was banished off into Ubers.
So now that I've said that, let me talk about Kyurem-B.
First off, is Kyurem-B broken? Yes and No. Kyurem-B does have the strongest attack stat in OU by far, and Choice Band literally OHKOs things that even resist it, which NEVER has been the case with any OU Pokemon. However, it does have a few reliable switch-ins and a very large list of checks. However, it's similar to the case of Blaziken, where one Kyu-B set completely defeats most of its counters (minus Jirachi, though I think a CB Fusion Bolt does a shit ton to Defensive Rachi). Oh, and Smash Pass makes this thing unbelievably gay, since if you don't have priority, it can 6-0 every team if it's mixed.
However, the real crux of the matter is how Kyurem-B affects the metagame. I believe that Kyurem-B has a completely negative effect on the metagame. First off, Kyurem-B has completely wiped sun teams off of the map. I think in about 50 suspect games, I have seen only one sun team at all. Second, Rain has become completely overcentralized, since a common Pokemon to have to counter Kyurem-B is Ferrothorn, who people always pair with Politoed. Third, there have literally been teams who use the following: 4 Choice Scarfed Dragons with Outrage (Mence, Chomp, Kyu-B, Haxorus), Latios, and Magnezone. Seriosuly, DragMag was dumb before, but you now have Garchomp and Kyurem-B (CB is faster than CB Nite, and can spam a more powerful outrage) who can just completely decimate physical walls that aren't steels.
Yeah, so teams have become pretty bland and unoriginal (minus the rare Hail team, but even Hail is used more now than Sun). I believe that Kyurem-B simply creates an unhealthy metagame, and thus do not believe it should be dropped. Thank you~
First off, I think people misunderstand about what these tests are all about. The tests are not whether to say if said Pokemon is too strong or not, it's if having that Pokemon there has a positive or averse effect on the metagame. For example, Excadrill had many hard counters, but it had an extremely detrimental effect on the metagame (breaking speed tiers, unoriginality of all teams, etc). Thus it was banished off into Ubers.
So now that I've said that, let me talk about Kyurem-B.
First off, is Kyurem-B broken? Yes and No. Kyurem-B does have the strongest attack stat in OU by far, and Choice Band literally OHKOs things that even resist it, which NEVER has been the case with any OU Pokemon. However, it does have a few reliable switch-ins and a very large list of checks. However, it's similar to the case of Blaziken, where one Kyu-B set completely defeats most of its counters (minus Jirachi, though I think a CB Fusion Bolt does a shit ton to Defensive Rachi). Oh, and Smash Pass makes this thing unbelievably gay, since if you don't have priority, it can 6-0 every team if it's mixed.
However, the real crux of the matter is how Kyurem-B affects the metagame. I believe that Kyurem-B has a completely negative effect on the metagame. First off, Kyurem-B has completely wiped sun teams off of the map. I think in about 50 suspect games, I have seen only one sun team at all. Second, Rain has become completely overcentralized, since a common Pokemon to have to counter Kyurem-B is Ferrothorn, who people always pair with Politoed. Third, there have literally been teams who use the following: 4 Choice Scarfed Dragons with Outrage (Mence, Chomp, Kyu-B, Haxorus), Latios, and Magnezone. Seriosuly, DragMag was dumb before, but you now have Garchomp and Kyurem-B (CB is faster than CB Nite, and can spam a more powerful outrage) who can just completely decimate physical walls that aren't steels.
Yeah, so teams have become pretty bland and unoriginal (minus the rare Hail team, but even Hail is used more now than Sun). I believe that Kyurem-B simply creates an unhealthy metagame, and thus do not believe it should be dropped. Thank you~
I would disagree that sun is non-existent, having played against a few sun teams over the past few days, but I think that's just laddering at different times. I don't see Kyurem as making sun any harder, as he's not going to outrun any of the sun sweepers and they already have a hard time taking hits so the extra power is really just overkill. One of the big issues I've found with the suspect ladder is it's already pretty dead at certain points, and you will face the same three people over and over. There are periods where I won't even see Kyurem and then periods where everyone is trying to kind of awkwardly throw him on a team. Which is honestly probably contributory to people not thinking Kyurem is good; 90% of the teams with him right now just aren't that well put together. That's something I know I did for a few matches just to try it out and it was awful. However, once I spent a little more time on working with it I was able to find a set and team around it that I enjoyed using.
That said I don't think Kyurem is having a big impact and I think that's really enough to justify it not being banned. It's slow, sr weak, priority weak, and has a pretty limited move pool. Bulk isn't that great when most things can do severe damage to it with or without the bulk and it's power is cool but it's hard for it to get a shot off against offensive teams which is what the majority of teams are. The Sub sets are really the only sets that I like, and even they're kind of limited by the fact that they need something to set up on and have a hard time creating that opportunity for itself.
As for the impact has had, I've seen a lot more Scizors and a little bit of an increased emphasis on keeping sr which has led me to see a few more Gengars. Both of those guys are pretty good / common to begin with though so not really much of a change. There's also Genesects running steel moves but to be honest I don't think it's worth if for most teams, I'd only do it if you're really strapped for a way to deal with Kuyrem and if you're playing suspect your team is probably overreacting to it anyway so you're probably fine.
That said I don't think Kyurem is having a big impact and I think that's really enough to justify it not being banned. It's slow, sr weak, priority weak, and has a pretty limited move pool. Bulk isn't that great when most things can do severe damage to it with or without the bulk and it's power is cool but it's hard for it to get a shot off against offensive teams which is what the majority of teams are. The Sub sets are really the only sets that I like, and even they're kind of limited by the fact that they need something to set up on and have a hard time creating that opportunity for itself.
As for the impact has had, I've seen a lot more Scizors and a little bit of an increased emphasis on keeping sr which has led me to see a few more Gengars. Both of those guys are pretty good / common to begin with though so not really much of a change. There's also Genesects running steel moves but to be honest I don't think it's worth if for most teams, I'd only do it if you're really strapped for a way to deal with Kuyrem and if you're playing suspect your team is probably overreacting to it anyway so you're probably fine.
That's an exaggeration. Its outrages are strong, but they aren't any stronger than CB Haxorus' Outrages on neutral targets (i can't think of any pokemon it ohkoes with outrage haxorus doesn't). Its outrages are incapable of OHKOing most of the relevant Steel-types in OU, and if we're talking about CB, it doesn't even have the option to get concrete damage on them outside of spamming Outrage or an easily abusable Fusion Bolt. CB Kyurem-B is basically CB Haxorus V1.2. It trades a neutrality for SR and actual coverage for more power, more bulk and effectiveness against Genesect.
It's not similar to Blaziken at all. The key difference is speed boost, which lets Blaziken pretty much shit on all team styles, regardless of the set it was running. Kyurem-B has a good amount of checks depending on the set its using because of its abusable speed stat. Blaziken on the other hand had very few checks because it could always outspeed things that were naturally faster than it. Things like Ferrothorn, Forretress, Jirachi, Bronzong and Scizor are good checks to the CB Kyurem set, and while they might have trouble against a mixed attacker set, need I remind you mixed attacking Dragons in general are usually prone to being uncounterable (Hydreigon, mixed mence etc). Most teams have it checked by default because its mediocre speed tier lets it get revenge killed by pretty much every offensive Pokemon in the tier. It's also vulnerable to 2 very strong priority users (Breloom & Scizor) which was a flaw Blaziken did not have.
Garchomp is more broken as a Smashpass recipient.
That's just anecdotal evidence, you can't use it prove that claim. (EX: i've played a bunch of suspect matches too, and i've seen a bunch of sun teams for example) I don't think Kyurem-B is responsible for the lack of sun teams because:
- Players want to try out the new suspect (Kyurem) and it's not that great on sun teams. They also want to win, so they're prone to copying that generic rain team thats been going around, which could explain the lack of sun teams. It's very effective against sun teams i'll give you that, but I personally don't think that's a bad thing because Sun teams definitely needed a nerf.
Again, not really Kyurem-B's fault. Rain has become completely centralized because all of the best offensive Pokemon (Genesect, Keldeo, Tornadus-T) are stupidly strong rain sweepers.
Dragmag teams have always been dumb, Kyurem-B did little to change that. And to be honest, i've been seeing a drop in DragMag teams. They're good, but a little too inconsistent for my liking.
I don't think Kyurem-B as at fault for this. It's a slow, SR weak Dragon-type dragon-type with a mediocre speed stat, and awful coverage... It isn't even that common in its own suspect test. Its easy to telegraph what its going to do (if you see hail, always expect sub) and it can't switch into battle that many times because of that glaring SR weak (which is a problem on CB sets). I'm not saying its bad, because we've had good players come in and prove that it can run some strong mixed sub sets, but being strong doesn't mean you're broken. Hell, it's done more good than bad. Its the only Dragon-type that doesn't get its shit wrecked by Genesect, it's given players a reason to use hail teams and it nerfs sun teams. These are positive traits. I think we should look at the long term instead of thinking that this metagame is indicative of the future of BW2 OU.
After playing and watching a ton of battles, I've noticed pretty much the same exact thing as everybody else has; Kyurem-B seems to only be used to spam Outrage. I have noticed a few individuals going the creative route and using defensive sets and Hail weather sets similar to Kyurem, but everyone else just seems to be abusing Outrage, and that's why he is such a pain. His move pool is a big MEH, and Outrage, Dragon Claw, Focus Blast, and Fusion Bolt are seeming to be his standard, which sucks because he lacks an Ice move, wasting his typing STAB opportunity. If I were to use Kyurem-B, I would take more advantage of his bulk and use a Sub Roost set similar to Kyurem, only with Outrage and possibly Ice Beam or Focus Blast.
My final thoughts on Kyurem-B. Do I think he's broken in OU? No. Do I think he's OP? No. Does every team need to build to prepare for him? Possibly. Is he healthy for OU? Not really, but is move pool is so pitiful that Outrage is really the only thing to watch out for. Do I think he should be unbanned? Yes.
By the way, I don't know if my calcs are incorrect or not, but has anyway mentioned Scarfed Terrakion as a decent check? I calculated that a Jolly Terrakion with 252 Atk EVs Close Combat can do 99.74% - 118.16% to a non defensive invested Kyurem-B. If my calcs are correct, Terrakion is a very nice check to a Scarfed Kyurem-B.
If anyone has any thoughts against my reasoning's, please feel free to reply. Also, correct my calcs if they are wrong, my old 5th Gen Damage Calc I used to use is not available ATM. Love these Suspect tests by the way, it's really nice to see how teams respond to these possibly new OU threats. Thanks OU council!
EDIT: Apologies mods on the ranting about Genesect and Tornadus-T, I just hate whiners ;), and many were bringing Genesect into their Kyurem-B arguments anyway.
My final thoughts on Kyurem-B. Do I think he's broken in OU? No. Do I think he's OP? No. Does every team need to build to prepare for him? Possibly. Is he healthy for OU? Not really, but is move pool is so pitiful that Outrage is really the only thing to watch out for. Do I think he should be unbanned? Yes.
By the way, I don't know if my calcs are incorrect or not, but has anyway mentioned Scarfed Terrakion as a decent check? I calculated that a Jolly Terrakion with 252 Atk EVs Close Combat can do 99.74% - 118.16% to a non defensive invested Kyurem-B. If my calcs are correct, Terrakion is a very nice check to a Scarfed Kyurem-B.
If anyone has any thoughts against my reasoning's, please feel free to reply. Also, correct my calcs if they are wrong, my old 5th Gen Damage Calc I used to use is not available ATM. Love these Suspect tests by the way, it's really nice to see how teams respond to these possibly new OU threats. Thanks OU council!
EDIT: Apologies mods on the ranting about Genesect and Tornadus-T, I just hate whiners ;), and many were bringing Genesect into their Kyurem-B arguments anyway.
Btw for anyone that has troubles with Kyurem-B on his offensive team, i suggest you try Mixed Cobalion, which is one of the best checks around. Cobalion's CC always OHKOes Kyurem-B after SR, while Scarf Kyurem-B never 2HKOes Cobalion with any physical move or Ice Beam, and CB can never OHKO with any move, and Cobalion can in fact quite comfortaby survive one Outrage:
CB Adamant Kyurem-B's Outrage vs 0 HP Cobalion: 48.76 - 57.4%, has a 5% chance to avoid the 2HKO
CB Jolly Kyurem-B's Outrage vs 0 HP Cobalion: 44.44 - 52.46%, 20.7% chance to 2HKO
CB Adamant Kyurem-B's Outrage vs 0 HP Cobalion: 48.76 - 57.4%, has a 5% chance to avoid the 2HKO
CB Jolly Kyurem-B's Outrage vs 0 HP Cobalion: 44.44 - 52.46%, 20.7% chance to 2HKO
cobalion won't like the substitute set.. a special defence drop while breaking the sub allows hp fire to do a lot more to it.
I'd compare kyurems checks to haxorus', you generally have to sacrifice and revenge.
I'd compare kyurems checks to haxorus', you generally have to sacrifice and revenge.
I've been toying around with sets for this monster over the last few days and the scary thing is that it can semi mimic the LO zekrom set. For those of you who don't know the set:
Zekrom- Lonely/ Naughty
104Hp/ 148Atk/ 252 Sp.Atk/ 4 Speed- @ Life Orb
Outrage
Draco Meteor
Bolt Strike
Focus Blast
The scary thing is, Black Kyurem dosen't need an attack boosting nature OR attack investment what so ever to hit the same attack stat that Zekrom gets. It also doesn't need the HP investment because it HP is just that much higher then Zekrom's. So thats 252 EVs left to put anywhere you want. You basicly have Zekrom's most dangerous set at your disposal with Black Kyurem, the only differences being Bolt Stike would be Fusion Bolt and 252 EVs to play around with and a non STAB Fusion Bolt. Now I'm not say that Black Kuyrem is better then Zekrom or anything like that, but just the fact that it can use the same blunt force that Zekrom can with LESS investment is really something. I've been useing this set on PO:
Kyurem-B - Rash
252HP/ 252 Sp.Atk/ 4 Spd @ Life orb
Outrage
Draco Meteor
Focus Blast
Fusion Bolt
with hail and hazzards it does a pretty good job at wall breaking. I also have a Scizor and Alakazam to come in and clean up after this thing has broken though. Over all the team has done decent and the set has done well too. It catches so many people off guard too, the idea of Kyu-B running mixed, but the reality is that this is probably one of its better functions.
Zekrom- Lonely/ Naughty
104Hp/ 148Atk/ 252 Sp.Atk/ 4 Speed- @ Life Orb
Outrage
Draco Meteor
Bolt Strike
Focus Blast
The scary thing is, Black Kyurem dosen't need an attack boosting nature OR attack investment what so ever to hit the same attack stat that Zekrom gets. It also doesn't need the HP investment because it HP is just that much higher then Zekrom's. So thats 252 EVs left to put anywhere you want. You basicly have Zekrom's most dangerous set at your disposal with Black Kyurem, the only differences being Bolt Stike would be Fusion Bolt and 252 EVs to play around with and a non STAB Fusion Bolt. Now I'm not say that Black Kuyrem is better then Zekrom or anything like that, but just the fact that it can use the same blunt force that Zekrom can with LESS investment is really something. I've been useing this set on PO:
Kyurem-B - Rash
252HP/ 252 Sp.Atk/ 4 Spd @ Life orb
Outrage
Draco Meteor
Focus Blast
Fusion Bolt
with hail and hazzards it does a pretty good job at wall breaking. I also have a Scizor and Alakazam to come in and clean up after this thing has broken though. Over all the team has done decent and the set has done well too. It catches so many people off guard too, the idea of Kyu-B running mixed, but the reality is that this is probably one of its better functions.
the problem with that ^ is that zekrom gets a STAB move he can use for awesome power.. while kyurem gets fusion bolt, he doesn't get stab on it, and it does a little over half of what outrage would on a neutral target. in fact, the only reason to use fusion bolt over outrage (fusion bolt is 100 power against steels that don't resist it, while outrage does 90 power) is for empoleon / skarmory. steelix/ferrothorn/magnezone actually take more from outrage, and vs the first two a physical STAB ice move is sorely missed.
if kyurem got ice shard, icicle crash or even icicle spear we wouldn't be having this discussion right now
if kyurem got ice shard, icicle crash or even icicle spear we wouldn't be having this discussion right now
Suddenly: Mamoswine is never seen again.
That being said, Kyurem getting a decent Ice Stab like Icicle Crash or Icicle Spear would really be pushing it for OU. Our theoretical CB Icicle Crash against standard (252 HP / 88 Def, Impish) Ferrothorn does a minimum of 53%. And have I mentioned that neither Icicle Spear nor Icicle Crash make contact, meaning that you don't take damage from Iron Barbs?
Also: 5 hits on Icicle Spear against 252/252+ Ferro could OHKO with at least two layers of Spikes (tops out at 85%). Holy shit.
Yeah, he would be like Deo-A (literally no guaranteed switch-in, gotta play smart and hope he doesn't predict your switch and is carrying the right move for the job) but with appreciable bulk.
eeeeh XDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
Kyu-b is broken, stop arguing lol.
So i think im able to talk about kyu-b's impact on the metagame. This annoying shit is just too good and would dominate the metagame if it gets unbanned. Im confident, im pretty sure suspect voters will make the right choice. Something with 170 BS Atk and 120 SAtk + really good defenses (did you guys realize that it has 391 HP without any evs investment + 216 in both defenses ?) can't be unbanned. In addition, Kyurem-Black is always used with a bulky spread, so breaking its sub or killing it is really really hard (genesect is unable to 2HKO it if it doesnt run bug buzz + doesnt get the SATK boost, Hydropump from ScarfKeldeo in rain only does 33%, so 27% with leftovers). I wont even talk about the CB set, that thing just ruins stall teams so easily... So yah, fuk that thing.
Okay, was going for requirements but I think I'll give up, that's too time consuming and hax streaks are literally driving me mad. I agree on the fact that Kyurem-B is manageable and all, however I also think Ojama has a point. While I found CB underwhelming (OHKO/2HKO something then die to the random revenge killer, or get stalled through Substitute until you kill yourself with confusion or give a free Sub to something), SubRoost, Sub Hone Claws (damn you Pocket), and plain Sub + 3 attacks are very threatening and that Sub is even hard to take down for defensive pokes with unresisted attacks. It's also incredibly easy to go mixed for Kyurem-B, thanks to its awesome attacking stats. While most of these things are true for Kyurem too, its set are far less various than the ones I saw onto the Suspect Ladder for its Black forme, thus it's arguably easier to switch into (for example, Bulky Scizor is 99% a safe switch-in to Kyurem, while many Kyurem-B sets carry HP Fire). I don't think these considerations are enough to make it ban worthy, but still I think we should consider a little bit more carefully the thing, since we've just started to play it in the OU environment, and I'm noticing a gradual (and somewhat alarming) improvement of the quality and degree of danger Kyurem-B sets carry. If I'd have to vote today, it would really be a toss up; a week ago I was kinda happy to have it into OU, but now I'm starting to have quite a bunch of doubts.
Hey everyone, did you hear that?? Ojama has an important message for us all.
We don't have to worry about our present suspect test because KYUREM-B IS BROKEN AND WE SHOULD STOP ARGUING. As it turns out, a Pokemon with high stats can't be unbanned just like that, and it's CB sets allegedly invalidate stall teams. Also the thought of Genesect being unable to OHKO it is downright fallacious.
Guess we're off the fucking hook. Time to relax, and wait until this thing is over.
:evan:
KRAQ
Free Kyurem-B. The only reason why I could see it as being too good is because of its bulk, but its weakness to all hazards is why I think it's OU. Haxorus does 95% of what Kyurem-B does, but better. If anything, I'd say the dragon of the round has been Salamence. The ScarfMoxie set is extremely effective in this metagame. Also, a pokemon weak to both Bullet Punch and Mach Punch is not good for taking Shell Smashes..Garchomp is much better.
I think being one of two dragons to not get defeated by Genesect is one of the only reasons why this thing is on the map. That and it's a decent answer to rain offense, and I consider both to be a good thing.
Free Kyurem-B. The only reason why I could see it as being too good is because of its bulk, but its weakness to all hazards is why I think it's OU. Haxorus does 95% of what Kyurem-B does, but better. If anything, I'd say the dragon of the round has been Salamence. The ScarfMoxie set is extremely effective in this metagame. Also, a pokemon weak to both Bullet Punch and Mach Punch is not good for taking Shell Smashes..Garchomp is much better.
I think being one of two dragons to not get defeated by Genesect is one of the only reasons why this thing is on the map. That and it's a decent answer to rain offense, and I consider both to be a good thing.
well after having tested and played against kyurem-b extensively i think im capable of passing judgment on it. i dont think it should be banned because its too powerful for ou, but rather because it impacts the metagame in a negative way. (similar to things like genesect, tornadus-t, deoxys-d, but thats a different topic for a different day.) this round has pretty much been all about rain offense, deoxys-d and dragon spam. not to say these werent prevelant before, but its much more evident if you play the suspect ladder right now as it stands. now i dont know about everyone else but i just dont think that makes for a very enjoyable game.
After playing around 100 matches on the suspect ladder, it is my conclusion that Kyurem-b quite broken. However, it would be inconsistent to ban Kyurem-b at this time. Why should we ban Kyurem-b when we allow Genesect, Deo-D, Keldeo, and Torn-t in our metagame? Unfortunately, as broken shit checks broken shit, Kyurem-b is a passable check for each of those pokemon, and if I make reqs I will vote to unban this monster, if only so that 4Drag-2Mag is as competitive as Rain Offense. Then there will be two types of teams in OU, rather than just one. I am disappointed that we are trying to test more things to bring down from ubers when our metagame is so far from being playable.
Seconding most of this. While I do believe Kyu-B isn't broken considering the current state of the OU metagame, it's way too OP for what a decent OU metagame ought to look like. Like myzozoa, if it comes to a vote, I'll unban, but I really think we shouldn't be going about suspect testing like this. Instead of unbanning more broken stuff to counteract the preexisting broken stuff, why not ban all the broken stuff and make the metagame a better place for players who aren't interested in using weather offense 100% of the time to have a chance at success?
If it's exacerbating the problem of broken Pokemon, then start banning the broken Pokemon. Are you just refusing because it would be inconsistent to ban them one at a time? That's absurd when the only option is to ban them one at a time.
I have no input on whether or not Kyurem-B is broken or not, but if you think it is, there is absolutely no justification for voting against banning it.
I have no input on whether or not Kyurem-B is broken or not, but if you think it is, there is absolutely no justification for voting against banning it.
No, you misunderstand my post. I'm not arguing that Kyu-B isn't broken, I'm arguing that it's less broken in the face of all the other broken stuff that currently resides in the OU tier. Kyu-B is actually good for the metagame right now, as it helps counteract the complete dominance of Rain teams, giving Hail a bit of a leg up with its superb Mixed set. You say that if it's broken, there's no justification to not ban it, but the justification you claim I lack is right there in the post above you.
edit: Seconding what Bri says below me, Mixed Kyu-B in Hail is a phenomenal Pokemon capable of ripping through teams and catching common defensive walls such as Gliscor and Hippowdon by surprise.
I am not thrilled with how the OU Council chose to do this, but whatever.
Lavos and I have been using Mixed in Hail and it is easily the best set to run. People have said it's comparable to Haxorus, but I disagree. Obviously all Banded Dragons have similar features, but a Subsitute Mixed set makes Kyurem-B much different than any other dragon in OU. It's deadly in Hail with Blizzard, as it can beat its most common check Ferrothorn.
Lavos and I have been using Mixed in Hail and it is easily the best set to run. People have said it's comparable to Haxorus, but I disagree. Obviously all Banded Dragons have similar features, but a Subsitute Mixed set makes Kyurem-B much different than any other dragon in OU. It's deadly in Hail with Blizzard, as it can beat its most common check Ferrothorn.
- Status