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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31152189
so preview of upcoming item change to brutaliser (it now builds into a reworked black cleaver)
things to note black cleaver no longer gives attack speed and passive is now applied through physical damage (not auto attacks). Xypherous mentions stuff like Garen's spin-to-win will apply Black Cleaver up to 5 times!!

[interesting enough, they also mentioned Irelia's R will be be changed back to magic damage so it wouldn't proc Black Cleaver EDIT: Actually I based this off a Reddit thread, can't find it in LoL forum]
 
From playing the lane before, I can say Kayle hard counters Udyr if the opponent doesn't know how to play lane brushes correctly. If they hug lane brushes, just buy a ward so you can attack them when they retreat into the brush. Udyr should never be able to hit you unless both your Q and E are on cooldown or you suck at kiting.
 
Omicron said:
Irelia is only good if she gets a full build or close to full build. The best thing about her is her lane sustain capabilities, thanks to her passive and her W. She really isn't that great early-game, but if you can manage to hold on until mid-late game without dying to ganks and whatnot (a well-played Irelia hardly ever dies to ganks), then she becomes an absolute beast.

I'm relatively new to the game, only having played it for about 3 weeks and at level 23, but when I go top, I do choose Irelia - she's also a shitton of fun to play.

On another, unrelated note, what are people's opinion's of Lux AP mid? I've been doing that for a day or so now and I have to admit she's quite a fun champ to play. Sniping someone at max range is just SO satisfying. However, I've heard that she kinda falls of late-game. Thoughts?
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NOOBLORD OMICRON WRONG WRONGWRONG!!!!! all irelia needs is a trinity force + GA and you'll win by the end of midgame :) (last whisper is fucking good too if you're gonna be relying on her burst). going aspeed build is cool too if you dont plan on being focused much. irelia is a midgame champ that falls off lategame if people build hp against her

irelia4life
 
Against Udyr, play a ranged hero. And yes, the best way to beat him is to kite. And no, it's not awful as top because let's say Udyr is last hitting in bear form, you will be stunned if you come close to last hit, so if you got nothing to put the pressure on him you need to wait ganks. Udyr is also insane when he pushed you at turret, he hits the turret after activating Tiger form (so the effect is still available) hit you when you come close and run away in turtle stance.
Rumble is so annoying to Udyr, he got a speed boost and a slow when Udyr runs after him. He's also one of the few hero that deal enough damage to threat Udyr throught his turtle and his sustain.
 
Sigh, so I just played Nautilus and Sejuani back to back. The latter is literally worse at everything besides maybe mobility. Naut has higher stats across the board besides armor, attack, and attack speed. Despite this, Naut is still tankier because of his shield, still does more damage because of Staggering Blow, and still has higher "attack speed" because he has an AA reset. Their passive autoattacks: Sej gets a 10% slow on her autoattack, Naut gets a snare on his, doesn't take a genius to figure out which is better. Their gap closer Qs: Sej has a dash, Naut has a pseudo-Blitz hook, the only redeeming thing about Sejuani's Q is that it lets her dash over walls, which combined with her superior movespeed, makes her more mobile. However, from a pure ganking PoV, Naut's Q is far superior and gives him decent mobility still. Their wave clearing Ws: both are freaking terrible for camp clearing, lets not lie. Naut's W is vastly superior as a skill though, even though it actually deals less damage than Sejuani's W (as sad as that is) and has higher cooldown, it gives him a shield, something Sejuani can only dream of in terms of both jungle sustain and late game tankiness. Their AoE slow Es: Sejuani technically has the stronger slow. However, it requires her to have already applied frost on a nearby opponent to even use it, and during a gank or teamfight, that one second could mean all the difference. Their initation AoE CC ults: Sejuani's ult is... actually amazing! Yet, even this is arguably inferior to Naut's. Sejuani's ult has longer range and a faster projectile speed, but Naut's is an AoE knockup, aka not affected by tenacity, can't be QSSed. Sejuani's ult can also be dodged if she doesn't aim it properly, Naut's ult will hit something no matter what because the last knockup+stun is targeted.

Nautilus isn't even a god tier jungler or anything, why is Sejuani so worthless?
 
Oh god Black Cleaver looks insane on Panth. I would still start with Phage in Dominion but I would probably do a build like Phage -> tabi or merc treads depending on enemy comp -> Black Cleaver. I mean my damage output was already good with my usual build of Brutalizer after Mallet and Atma's but previous builds were strange for my liking because even when extremely fed building IE and Randuin's felt weird. Oh, and I finally have a chance against bastards like Rammus and Darius who shit on my face no matter what I built. Kudos, Riot.

EDIT;; @NWO: Too little damage output, not enough payoff compared to champs with superior CC output.
 
I've been trying out Manamune on Jayce recently and it's been amazing. The only problem I've ever had with Jayce was mana but simply getting Tear of the Goddess let's you E+Q your lane opponent all day and just spamming your ult and E in cannon form to move around gives you even more stacks.

Also, with just Sheen and Manamune, you can do some serious damage by spamming your spells. Late game, you can just build tanky items (since most mana items come with quite a bit of HP, armor, and magic resist) and just burst someone down and run until you get your cooldowns back.

With that new Black Cleaver, I'm actually worried ad casters could become broken. They've nerfed Ezreal, Corki, and Jayce recently because they were too powerful as well as Trinity Force itself. With the new Black Cleaver, they could become more problematic. Although, any buff to Riven and Renekton is great. Both can easily stack it by using their burst combos and Riven has an execute in the form of her ult to use at the end once she's built up that armor pen.
 
I don't understand why you would get Manamune on Jayce at all. It gimps his early game damage and everything it offers can be remedied with smart play. Run utility masteries or something; no need to dump 995 gold early on for very few benefits. You could get Tear and spam more, or you could be smart with your mana and go double Doran's for a stronger laning phase, more health, more damage. You could go for a 20 minute BT+Brut or a 20 minute Triforce instead of delaying these by as much as eight minutes because you built Manamune first.

Minimally beneficial item; can be dealt with by just playing smarter. Manamune isn't essential on any champion - on champs like Yorick and Urgot, on whom Manamune used to be essential months ago, top-level players don't even build it anymore and instead play smarter while adjusting their build path to be more optimal
 
New World Order said:
Sejuani's ult can also be dodged
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you must be the worst skillshot aimer in the world

Sejuani is the fucking bosslike and she needs more love. Keep in mind that Nautilus's aa snare only procs every once in a while, while Sej can constantly reapply it. Sejuani also clears the jungle faster than Nautilus and her dash gives her more options when ganking. In teamfights, Sej's ult is arguably better than Nautilus's (and you'd have to be retarded to miss it). Yes, she has weaknesses, but don't overlook her strengths.

also

IM ON A BOAR
IM ON A BOAR
ERRYBODY LOOK AT ME CAUSE IM SITTIN ON THIS BOAR
IM ON A BOAR
IM ON A BOAR
TAKE A GOOD HARD LOOK AT THE MOTHERFUCKIN BOAR
 
Walrein said:
you must be the worst skillshot aimer in the world

Sejuani is the fucking bosslike and she needs more love. Keep in mind that Nautilus's aa snare only procs every once in a while, while Sej can constantly reapply it. Sejuani also clears the jungle faster than Nautilus and her dash gives her more options when ganking. In teamfights, Sej's ult is arguably better than Nautilus's (and you'd have to be retarded to miss it). Yes, she has weaknesses, but don't overlook her strengths.

also

IM ON A BOAR
IM ON A BOAR
ERRYBODY LOOK AT ME CAUSE IM SITTIN ON THIS BOAR
IM ON A BOAR
IM ON A BOAR
TAKE A GOOD HARD LOOK AT THE MOTHERFUCKIN BOAR
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I guess by dodging he meant that you can actually flash away from it. You can be the best player, if the guy isn't too crippled he can still flash and that's it.
Whereas Nautilus, you can not really flash away, and nobody can "interupt" the ultimate with his tank by putting his big body in the way of your ultimate.
Not saying Sejuani is bad, but she's kinda outclassed by other CrowdControlHouses in the jungle.
 
Manamune is a great item of its own accord, the only problem is Tear itself blows. ;/ But Jayce in particularly hardly has mana problems if you remember that being in Hammer Stance for a short while will quickly refill your mana bar, especially after his nerf if anyone besides me has realized there's no reason to level E anything but last now...

"Being smart with your mana" is a stupid attitude to have and exactly why mana/regen is so underrated in this game. You be "smart with your mana," I'll throw three times as many spells at your ass because I can and probably come out on top. Other than building from Tear, the only bad thing about Manamune is that you'll never hear the end of it from 95% of your potential teammates if you build it on anything but Yorick / Blitz / Urgot. And I even got harassed once for that last one. -_-

That 500 Mana on Frozen Heart ain't just for show either, there's good reason people don't buy it on Shyvana or Garen even though they love all the other stats.
 
Mr.E said:
Manamune is a great item of its own accord, the only problem is Tear itself blows. ;/ But Jayce in particularly hardly has mana problems if you remember that being in Hammer Stance for a short while will quickly refill your mana bar, especially after his nerf if anyone besides me has realized there's no reason to level E anything but last now...

"Being smart with your mana" is a stupid attitude to have and exactly why mana/regen is so underrated in this game. You be "smart with your mana," I'll throw three times as many spells at your ass because I can and probably come out on top. Other than building from Tear, the only bad thing about Manamune is that you'll never hear the end of it from 95% of your potential teammates if you build it on anything but Yorick / Blitz / Urgot. And I even got harassed once for that last one. -_-

That 500 Mana on Frozen Heart ain't just for show either, there's good reason people don't buy it on Shyvana or Garen even though they love all the other stats.
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They would need to nerf it quite more to made the E not worthy to be leveled second. And I believe pro top players still do not even pick W before having finishing they damage core. Moreover this makes you push, thus weak to ganks, and the mana regain power is low anyway and being in melee range for jayce is crippling.
Manamune is bad because you just simply trade your early game power (buying dorans as said Jebus) to have more mana to spam. And spam to accomplish what? more damage? I doubt so, as even if you can spam less, Bloodthrister will give you far more damage, same as Trinity. You'll tell me "just buy it all" and I agree but Manamune is too expensive, it delays your core too much.

And yes in my opinion it's about playing "smart", a good and experienced player knows how to threaten his opponent by his own presence on the lane, he doesn't need to spam spells and blow his mana. You need to make your opponent feel this "I am not bursting you yet, but if you come for this last hit, you know that I will punish you". It's like having the nuclear bomb, you need to be a "force of deterrence", not a crazy spammer.
Top lane, more than any lane, is all about the "intimidation game", being able to make your opponent believe "damn I can't trade with this guy" without being forced to be focused on the trading all day is the key here from my experience because it makes you win the lasthit war, and gives you the initation during the trade. They need to fear you !


* Just played Irelia against Darius yesterday, seriously I had one gank that gave me an advantage early, and there is NO WAY Darius can catch up with you after that (unless you're getting camped like hell and not cautious).
 
remlabmez said:
still curious how riot is going to fix top snowball effect
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Riot killed the afk farming bruisers (Nasus was popular in the past.. then Riven came and say "hello").
Riven did lead the shift in my opinion, like Garen (before the nerf that killed him).

They need to nerf the experience in my opinion, it can seem strange to think that but in the early levels, it's not so much about having 400 more gold thanks to a firstblood. It's more about killing his enemy then being level 5 when he comes back at level 3.
Basically here the gap is HUGE and totally impossible to bridge if your foe is aware that he has an advantage.

The level in a great indicator of "who is winning", and it grants so many advantages (stats boost, increase of damages on a spell or possibility to learn a new one). And it's really easy to play with the minions waves to deny the experience.
 
Mr.E said:
"Being smart with your mana" is a stupid attitude to have and exactly why mana/regen is so underrated in this game. You be "smart with your mana," I'll throw three times as many spells at your ass because I can and probably come out on top. Other than building from Tear, the only bad thing about Manamune is that you'll never hear the end of it from 95% of your potential teammates if you build it on anything but Yorick / Blitz / Urgot. And I even got harassed once for that last one. -_-
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The way I see it, you could do something like build Tear on Corki, Jayce, Ezreal, etc, and spam spells every wave and farm to your heart's content (actually, that's how mid Corki was played over a year ago) - or you could build double Doran's, get exactly the same amount of farm through CSing well, have roughly the same amount of poke if you aren't Qing every wave, have 160 more health and 6% lifesteal to survive better, have 20 more damage to CS better/trade better/burst better, and still manage to not push your lane so you don't get ganked 24/7.

But it's whatever, I've gotten into a lot of LoL arguments before and usually neither side ends up yielding so I'll drop it.
 
remlabmez said:
still curious how riot is going to fix top snowball effect
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Maybe making the lane harder to gank or something? If two players are of equal skill level, there shouldn't be enough of an advantage that one champ can just gapclose, grab FB, and start snowballing. You pretty much need an early jungle gank to snowball. If two players are of different skill levels, then the more skilled player deserves to snowball.
 
Riot will never make the lanes harder to gank. Jungle ganks aren't the issue of the snowballing, it's the solution.
Basically, once you're behind, the only thing that can save you is :
- Freezing lane
- Getting ganks

You can say "maybe he snowballed from a gank". That's true, but then just gank him back and the case is solved.
Whereas in a "ungankable" lane situation, he can snowball from something even more stupid (there were more minions, thus he won the early fight or things like that). And then, no way to recover from this.
So yes, jungle can boost the snowball, but it can also mitigate it, thus it's not the thing they need to change.

Moreover, they will never make it harder to gank since it's totally against the "policy" they took these past times. They like how the jungler is involved everywhere, they will probably try to increase this impact, not lower it for sure, and we see it with the new junglers that are created, they're aggressive and have strong ganks even before the level 6.

* Oh, and it's not about the "skill" to me. Imagine two players at the same level of skill, one got a hero with a stronger early. He will win the early and snowball while his enemy will need time to farm and recover from the domination he suffered early on. You may think it's fair, since he bets on the late, thus it's logical to suffer early on. I agree, but right now, betting on late is so hard that it's not really a good option. Thus, many possible late game options and strategies are closed and non viable.
To sum up, currently the interest rate of an investment on early is higher than the interest rate of investment on late game (on a 40mins time line let's say, imagine two curbs, one that starts high and goes down -early- and one that starts low and goes up -late; the first curb is "bigger" on average on the normal game life time range)
 
The sole reason late game champions (Ryze, Vayne, etc) have low win rates in Solo Q is that the community as a whole gives up far, far too easily. Get behind a few kills? Better FF. Don't get a gank through the entirety of laning? Surrender or AFK.

I honestly believe that upwards of twenty percent of all surrenders would result in wins for the team that is surrendering. I personally have only ever started a surrender vote if my team has a DC, and never vote yes unless the same is true. As long as your Nexus is up, there is always a chance the other team will do something dumb.
 
remlabmez said:
still curious how riot is going to fix top snowball effect
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There's a couple reasons why top snowballs.

First thing to note is that there is no reason for the jungler to be at top except very early in the game when you're conveniently right there after your clear. Otherwise anytime after that is a dragon forfeit while risking to kill the one lane with the tankiest champs.

Top lane champs scale very fast with both levels and items into their midgame state, and the fact that top is the longest lane as a solo lane means starvation happens.

The easiest and most straightforward solution IMO is adding an actual objective near top that is relevant to early-midgame.
 
UncleSam said:
The sole reason late game champions (Ryze, Vayne, etc) have low win rates in Solo Q is that the community as a whole gives up far, far too easily. Get behind a few kills? Better FF. Don't get a gank through the entirety of laning? Surrender or AFK.

I honestly believe that upwards of twenty percent of all surrenders would result in wins for the team that is surrendering. I personally have only ever started a surrender vote if my team has a DC, and never vote yes unless the same is true. As long as your Nexus is up, there is always a chance the other team will do something dumb.
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This is funny by the way to see that Ryze was the hero with the highest ability to carry on his own in competitive games, and had an insane win ratio here.

But to me the issue is not really only in soloQ where people do give up when they are a little behind, there is really a snowball effect, and you can see it in the competitive games also (games in which nobody gives up easily).
For my part I do surrender when I feel like we can't win, like by no mean, and as long as there is a little chance I'll do my very best. How many games do you win in the end like this... :o

*By the way, this is very true the point on the length of the top lane, people forgot it, but this is the reason why Akali is played top (at least in the past competitive games). What is the use of 3 jumps in a short lane like mid. So yes, Top snowballs also become you got more length to toy with and to deny your enemy in a 1v1.
 
Has anyone else ogled the slew of red posts that came out today? Season 3 cant get here fast enough. New Black Cleaver, new Elysia's Miracle, what? Archangel Scepter is evolving?
Blade of the Ruined King and Wicked Hatchet are really S3 items?

Normally I don't like rushing devs, but I want this patch to happen yesterday.
 
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