Serious Relationships and Sex Ed Thread

[Stallion]

if you're tired of pitying yourself, then stop. im not even kidding lol.

also, that whole my other-half/soulmate thing is romanticism/fantasy bullshit. you can be absolutely and completely happy being single. a relationship is a COMPLEMENT, not a requirement.

you're only like 19, you have WAY too much of your life ahead to worry about petty things such as not having a boyfriend. enjoy your bachelor years because they're also an important and fun part of your life.

and remember that to love someone else truly, first you've gotta love yourself.

also, so what if you think you were off to a "late-start"? not everyone is the same, and you don't have to fit in either. really, just be honest with yourself and do what you like.

and twerk dat ass

edit: also, youll get over him. dont give it much though, it'll pass, really.

This is a fantastic post.

Shit like that can hurt, but everybody has to deal with it now and again sometime. The difference is those who sit around feeling sorry for themselves for an extended period of time, and those who say "fuck it, time to stop being sad and go be awesome instead".

A few months ago, something happened with this girl I was starting to really like. We had a thing where it wasn't exclusive, but we would hook up, see each other and just enjoy each others company. Anyway long story short over a certain weekend, we got really close - to the point where I was thinking that I would consider being in an exclusive relationship with this girl. She had lunch with me on my 21st, and we had an amazing chat - totally honest. Found out she'd still been making out with other guys when drunk, I told her that I'd still been seeing other girls, but we both established that we really liked each other and wanted to see where things went. Or so I thought, because apparently taking girls on dates (not even progressing beyond kissing on any of them) is worse then hooking up with randoms. Out of "anger", she lets this other guy in emotionally, hooks up with him a few nights in a row and then goes and fucks him the night of my 21st party that she was meant to attend. She didn't even tell me all this either, I figured it out based on her mannerisms and she fessed up when I called her out. I was furious, I was shaking in anger and rage when I'd found this out - hooking up with other people when you're in the early stages of seeing each other doesn't phase me but sleeping with some guy and being "torn" between me and him just days AFTER we had a really open DnM? I told her not to bother and that we were done. I was still angry the next day, but then I realised something. Why let someone like that control my emotions? If they're stupid enough to do what they did, they're not good enough to be in my life. Simple. They should be the ones who are emotional. I went back and did the things that make me who I am: I went to the gym, I made a mix, I played basketball, I laughed with friends, I enjoyed myself.

Point of my story is, being sad is a state of mind. Everyone has a right to be down, in some cases for longer then others. It gets to a certain point where you need to make a decision though. Do you want to be carry around being a sad fuck or do you want to go out there and continue to make yourself a better person and the most of your life? At the end of the day, the people in your life love you for the characteristics that intertwine to make you who you are. Some girls or guys approval is going to do sweet fuck all to change that.

And @ junior in particular, I know personally that I can spot emotional neediness from a mile away. If I meet a girl who's super needy, I run for the hills. A relationship is meant to be fun, not a counselling session. Sounds to me like you're in no state to pursue anything with anyone at this stage bro. Get back to what makes you who you are. You have amazing friends, a great sense of fun and find it easy to meet people. You're a catch if you believe you are. Don't let some fucktard who's played with your emotions make you emotionally dependent and needy, you are junior and you are strong!

 

[Dia]

yes! Bloody grindr where everyone is just looking for a quick fuck. It's really impossible to meet people unless you meet them through friends tbh.

There's this one guy in one of my tutorials that I'm pretty sure is gay. I don't really find him cute but I'm gonna go talk to him this week anyway. Really need a rebound of sorts as bad as that sounds, even if its just someone to talk to

ugh I'm such a mess! Day 3 of recovery and I still feel like shit, even though I tell myself that THIS IS GONNA BE THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF MY LIFE etc

Everyone at your high school can go and get fucked.
That aside, forget about that kid that came out when you were making out. There was not anything you could do about what he said. If you are having trouble forgetting about him, forget about relationships altogether for a while.
btw, I'm going trough the same experience you described in your first post.

 

[Sassy Gay Man]

Point of my story is, being sad is a state of mind. Everyone has a right to be down, in some cases for longer then others. It gets to a certain point where you need to make a decision though. Do you want to be carry around being a sad fuck or do you want to go out there and continue to make yourself a better person and the most of your life?

it doesn't work like that

 

[Stallion]

it doesn't work like that

Why doesn't it? Unless you are actually diagnosed with depression and it's a chemical thing, it absolutely does work like that. I'm not saying it's normal to get over things in a day like I did, it varies for everyone. But are you saying that you don't have a choice whether you're upset for a week and then decide to go out there and enjoy the best things in your life, or sit around for two months moping and pitying yourself? If so, I call bullshit.

 

[DrRobotnik]

Even if it's not depression, the majority of people don't choose to be like that, so assuming they can just choose not to be like that is extremely insensitive and ignorant.

 

[Ninahaza]

if you're tired of pitying yourself, then stop. im not even kidding lol.

also, that whole my other-half/soulmate thing is romanticism/fantasy bullshit. you can be absolutely and completely happy being single. a relationship is a COMPLEMENT, not a requirement.

you're only like 19, you have WAY too much of your life ahead to worry about petty things such as not having a boyfriend. enjoy your bachelor years because they're also an important and fun part of your life.

and remember that to love someone else truly, first you've gotta love yourself.

also, so what if you think you were off to a "late-start"? not everyone is the same, and you don't have to fit in either. really, just be honest with yourself and do what you like.

and twerk dat ass

edit: also, youll get over him. dont give it much though, it'll pass, really.

why do people think like this? Why does this train of thought exist and why is it often given as advice? There is no one set age for someone to have their first relationship. My impression is that a lot of people have their first serious relationship in their twenties, but relationships, much like almost everything else in life, gets better with practice. Each and every relationship you have before that serious one helps you get better at both discovering what you truly want/makes you happy and just being better at relationships.

Lets also look at it from another angle. As teens in middle and high school we have crushes and fall in love, or at least think its love, but life is just more fun with someone else and this doesn't change or slow down as we get older. I would have loved to have been in a relationship throughout my entire teenage years. Seriously, EVERYTHING is better when you have someone to share it with, someone you have connected with, opened up to fully and been so vulnerable. someone that makes you happy just being around them no matter how silly whatever it is you both are doing is. Lets also not forget the unnecessary drama and emotion that comes with one's teenage years. Its a much better experience when you have someone that shares such a connection with, especially if you are under the impression that "no one understands you man". Don't even get me started on the effects it has on social life and the night life (or rather, just night i suppose).

I read juniors huge post and i didn't really get any vibes that he's even ever been in a relationship. now you may look at someone like that and think "oh well, he is only 20, he is young", but seriously wtf? he is young? really? also for someone entering their twenties with never having had that experience, well, it really fucks you up psychologically. its in the same vein as virginity. Its like you are missing out on something, you are behind. You are standing outside the party slowly aging and just wanting nothing more than to join the rest of the world in there and be able to say "oh so that's what this experience feels like". its nice to make peace with the single life, yes, but my God man, not if you have had nothing but the single life and are in your fucking twenties. it doesn't matter that he is just now turning 20. And even if you HAVE been in a relationship before, you should strive for it again anyways. I am not talking about desperation either here, no, I'm talking about striving to find that connection again, to find that someone that makes life that much more fucking awesome. Someone that raises your happiness levels. Now my life isn't bad, its definitely not shitty, but you can sure as hell bet it would just be on another fucking level if i had someone special by my side, someone i just cant seem to get enough of and look forward to the next time i'm around her. And that's an important distinction to make as well because a relationship can be both heaven or hell. Luckily I've never been in a relationship that actually made life worse, but that's only because of my extremely low number of relationships I've been in.

it doesn't work like that

i also agree with this. I think there are special cases, stallion, but generally no. I watched one of my best friends go through one of the worst heartbreaks i've ever seen. trust me it doesn't work like that

Edit: also going back to the whole "you are still young" thing, i don't quite remember the name of the movie, but the ending had one of the most memorable phrases ever, at least to me. The husband and wife, both not among the living anymore, were talking and the husband said something along the lines of "If i could do it all over again i would find you sooner".
Now i don't know if i would want to be one of those stories where one met the person they would spend the rest of their life with in middle or high school, but damn was that line fucking touching. maybe its the entire movie itself that makes that ending line so touching. eh

 

[Stallion]

Even if it's not depression, the majority of people don't choose to be like that, so assuming they can just choose not to be like that is extremely insensitive and ignorant.

What, no no you're all missing my point. What I'm saying is you CAN'T help how you feel sometimes, you just can't. I'm saying what you CAN control is how you choose to deal with how you feel though, you get me?

After the last bad breakup I had, I didn't get over the girl in question for over a month. Things started to improve a lot more though when I made a conscious decision to go out in the world and continue living my life rather then sitting in my bedroom wishing she'd call me or that we could reconcile. It doesn't mean I didn't have a heavy heart while doing it, but it was a much better alternative thinking to myself "I don't want to be upset anymore, I'm going to try my very best to feel better and be positive" then "Fuck my life, everything sucks, I'm worthless, pity me..." etc. That's what I'm trying to say.

EDIT: My wording in my previous post is poor. By "be upset" I mean self pitying and defeatist. You can't just switch emotions on and off like a lightbulb if that's what you guys thought I meant, but you can control how you deal with them.

 

[Stratos]

ok this is going to sound like a really stupid question but what does one even do in a relationship? I hate awkwardness and not knowing what to do so just a general lack of knowledge of what relationship activity entails is some of what has been keeping me from pursuing one. (oh and i know that age has a lot to do with relationships so im fifteen and a junior in hs)

 

[Coronis]

its in the same vein as virginity. Its like you are missing out on something, you are behind. You are standing outside the party slowly aging and just wanting nothing more than to join the rest of the world in there and be able to say "oh so that's what this experience feels like".

Nailed that part, for sure. I should really lose that virginity.

Excellent post nina, agree with everything you said, made some other very good points as well.

 

[Ace Emerald]

ok this is going to sound like a really stupid question but what does one even do in a relationship? I hate awkwardness and not knowing what to do so just a general lack of knowledge of what relationship activity entails is some of what has been keeping me from pursuing one. (oh and i know that age has a lot to do with relationships so im fifteen and a junior in hs)

Honestly, like Ninahaza sort of outlined above, being in a relationship is all about being with a person that you care for and connect with. I mean, there's no set agenda for relationship activities, you just enjoy her/his company. S/he gets you and you get her/him. You understand each other, and that's just satisfying for a lot of humans. As a species, we're all about communication. Anyways, that's me speaking from my personal experience, hope that may have clarified something.

 

[Trax]

also, that whole my other-half/soulmate thing is romanticism/fantasy bullshit. you can be absolutely and completely happy being single. a relationship is a COMPLEMENT, not a requirement.

This, a relationship is not an instant work free pathway to happiness/sex/salvation/whatever else people are looking for in relationships.

 

[Every1XplodeNOW]

I read juniors huge post and i didn't really get any vibes that he's even ever been in a relationship. now you may look at someone like that and think "oh well, he is only 20, he is young", but seriously wtf? he is young? really? also for someone entering their twenties with never having had that experience, well, it really fucks you up psychologically. its in the same vein as virginity. Its like you are missing out on something, you are behind. You are standing outside the party slowly aging and just wanting nothing more than to join the rest of the world in there and be able to say "oh so that's what this experience feels like". its nice to make peace with the single life, yes, but my God man, not if you have had nothing but the single life and are in your fucking twenties. it doesn't matter that he is just now turning 20. And even if you HAVE been in a relationship before, you should strive for it again anyways. I am not talking about desperation either here, no, I'm talking about striving to find that connection again, to find that someone that makes life that much more fucking awesome. Someone that raises your happiness levels. Now my life isn't bad, its definitely not shitty, but you can sure as hell bet it would just be on another fucking level if i had someone special by my side, someone i just cant seem to get enough of and look forward to the next time i'm around her. And that's an important distinction to make as well because a relationship can be both heaven or hell. Luckily I've never been in a relationship that actually made life worse, but that's only because of my extremely low number of relationships I've been in.

You have to remember he's gay. I hate saying this, but it really is harder for us gays to date and find someone to have a relationship with. It's actually quite normal for gay people to have never dated and to be a virgin even up into their late 20's. To use myself as an example: My teen years and early 20's were full of confusion, hating myself, denial, depression, etc. that dating was the last thing on my mind. When I finally got through all of that, I was 23, a virgin, and never been in a relationship. I'm not going to try to know what Junior has gone through, but him being 19 and being in a relationship is pretty phenomenal for a gay person.

You also sound like being a virgin is a bad thing, well it's not. Here's the truth, nothing changes after you have sex, NOTHING and from what I've seen, being in a relationship isn't all what it's crack up to be. Once you have a bad one, you'll understand why people will want to be a bachelor for a little while. If you want my opinion, people should do what they want. If you want to be in a relationship then go try to be in one and if you want to be to be single, than be single, there's nothing wrong with either at any age. Don't let people tell you what to do, do what makes you happy, nothing else.

 

[Ninahaza]

You have to remember he's gay. I hate saying this, but it really is harder for us gays to date and find someone to have a relationship with. It's actually quite normal for gay people to have never dated and to be a virgin even up into their late 20's. To use myself as an example: My teen years and early 20's were full of confusion, hating myself, denial, depression, etc. that dating was the last thing on my mind. When I finally got through all of that, I was 23, a virgin, and never been in a relationship. I'm not going to try to know what Junior has gone through, but him being 19 and being in a relationship is pretty phenomenal for a gay person.

You also sound like being a virgin is a bad thing, well it's not. Here's the truth, nothing changes after you have sex, NOTHING and from what I've seen, being in a relationship isn't all what it's crack up to be. Once you have a bad one, you'll understand why people will want to be a bachelor for a little while. If you want my opinion, people should do what they want. If you want to be in a relationship then go try to be in one and if you want to be to be single, than be single, there's nothing wrong with either at any age. Don't let people tell you what to do, do what makes you happy, nothing else.

My post wasn't meant to be an attack on Junior or even portray him in some sort of negative, less than average type of way, it was a response to one of the things said in an other wise good response that phantasia made. I was also coming at it from a general point of view because when it comes to yearning for companionship, love or whatever else you want to call it, it doesnt really matter what you are in to.

and lastly, i never said being a virgin was a bad thing. At one point in my very christian life back then, i was one of the kids that made the decision to not have sex until married, but we all know how that turned out. I simple tried to summarize the psychological effects that come with the territory especially in this day and age when you cant even see one ad anywhere that isn't sexualized in some form. Again, my response wasn't meant to be an attack on junior or anyone. Now if you want to dissect what i said and counter some points, by all means go ahead, but please make sure we are at least on the same page

 

[VKCA]

I read juniors huge post and i didn't really get any vibes that he's even ever been in a relationship. now you may look at someone like that and think "oh well, he is only 20, he is young", but seriously wtf? he is young? really? also for someone entering their twenties with never having had that experience, well, it really fucks you up psychologically. its in the same vein as virginity. Its like you are missing out on something, you are behind. You are standing outside the party slowly aging and just wanting nothing more than to join the rest of the world in there and be able to say "oh so that's what this experience feels like". its nice to make peace with the single life, yes, but my God man, not if you have had nothing but the single life and are in your fucking twenties. it doesn't matter that he is just now turning 20.

hahahaha and here I was so at peace with being a virgin/forever relationshipless/etc/etc
guess I better get on that before I turn into a murder/rapist/pedophile from all the emotional damage I'm inflicting on myself

 

[Eraddd]

@Ninahaza

I think it's also fair to point out that not having a significant other and having things to share with friends are not mutually exclusive. That's what friends are there for right? (Well at least to me I guess)

also for someone entering their twenties with never having had that experience, well, it really fucks you up psychologically. its in the same vein as virginity. Its like you are missing out on something, you are behind. You are standing outside the party slowly aging and just wanting nothing more than to join the rest of the world in there and be able to say "oh so that's what this experience feels like".

I don't know. Speaking from experience (being single all my life), I don't think it's messed me up psychologically, or I feel like I've missed out on a lot. I've had a lot of regrets in the past few years, but I don't think not having a significant others is one of them.

Someone that raises your happiness levels. Now my life isn't bad, its definitely not shitty, but you can sure as hell bet it would just be on another fucking level if i had someone special by my side, someone i just cant seem to get enough of and look forward to the next time i'm around her.

This part is what bothers me the most. I get the impression that you're seeking a relationship just to satisfy your own desires and for your own improvement, when a relationship should be about reciprocating. From that, I feel that you want a relationship just for the sake of having a relationship. (Not meant as a direct attack on you).

I tend to stay within the line in between "it's imperative to have a relationship" and "you don't need a relationship." Strong bonds and connections aren't necessarily bounded to having a significant other. However, relationships can be a very good thing for your lives. I'm more of the opinion of "take the opportunity when it's presented to you, but don't go hungering after it." Though I am a bit more introverted compared to others, so take my words with a grain of salt.

 

[Ninahaza]

No worries, Eraddd. In a way you are right, but also wrong. I have been blessed to at one point in my life have experienced pure bliss in the form of a relationship, so maybe that's why i speak of it the way i do, but trust me i am not looking for a relationship for the sake of being in one. Relationships and i is a story that is interesting indeed, but i'm not comfortable opening that can of worms. I have been single and am single today because of my very conscious decisions I've made in the face of clear opportunity, which goes against everything i have pretty much said because, like, why run from relationships when the time comes then? its weird, its stupid, and like i said, its not something i'm confortable talking about publicly.

hahahaha and here I was so at peace with being a virgin/forever relationshipless/etc/etc
guess I better get on that before I turn into a murder/rapist/pedophile from all the emotional damage I'm inflicting on myself

You know i think if you end up turning into a murder/rapist/pedophile and placing blame on never managing to get into a relationship or on your virginity, then you are delusional and have some serious issues.

Know what? i am just going to quote some twins on youtube that i find hilarious. "At the end of the day you can do whatever the FUCK you want to do"

look, and really give this some thought and try your best not to delude yourself ok, but if you are truly happy being single, then by all means carry on brotha/sista. /fist in the air. more power to you, But clearly Junior does not want that. just look at what he said

So why is it that it took me 18 bloody years to find some sort of friend, and now that I've turned 20 as of yesterday, why I'm single?

I am as cute as a button, I have the personality. I just don't understand. I don't know where to meet people or begin?

This is really why i refrained from giving any actual advice to him because its difficult to say something that's not along the lines of "its not bad being single. you can be happy single. enjoy your single years, etc", because again, clearly not what the guy wants. But hey, i'm not bashing those of you that told him that, really. I'm down for comforting people.

In fact most people that have posted in here do not want to be single, at least not at the moment. I do not follow every single post made in here, but i doubt someone has come in wanting advice on how to dump his or her boyfriend/girlfriend because he or she is wild, not meant to be tamed and wants whats rightful his/hers, the single life and all its adventures that his/her heart is clearly desiring.

Edit: Eraddd i was just re-reading your post, and, paying closer attention this time, noticed you said you've been single all your life. Ok, and i'm willing to put a lot on the following, like a shit ton, but once you or anyone in a similar situation not only get into a relationship, but a great one, your views will do a complete 360. feel free to save that and prove me wrong in the future

 

[elcheeso]

Nina, it's not so much a "you should want to be single" thing as a "desperately wanting a relationship/to lose your virginity is a psychological thing that you don't really need" thing. Like you said, it's more about feeling like you're missing out on something that everyone else has and it makes you feel like you're being left behind... when the fact is that it's something that moves at its own pace for everyone. That shit is transparent in both yours and junior's posts.

It's not wrong to want a relationship, but when your motivation for one basically comes down to "everyone else is doing it but me" and "I need someone else to make me happy", that's not healthy for you or anyone you end up dating. It's not just you guys, obviously, feeling that way is completely natural and I think most of us can understand it to some extent (especially when you're still young)... but yeah. It's something you really need to remind yourself (general you here) that it isn't a race and while some people might judge you for your lack of experience, those people are stupid assholes.

Wasn't planning on responding to this, but there you go. For you gay guys out there, while the culture may make it feel like you're the only one looking for an actual relationship (sup male posturing), you're definitely not alone. Hell, there are even a good chunk of people on grindr that are just looking to chat and looking for something more serious, even if it is primarily full of homophobic and racist assholes just looking for a cheap fuck, heh.

 

[Every1XplodeNOW]

My post wasn't meant to be an attack on Junior or even portray him in some sort of negative, less than average type of way, it was a response to one of the things said in an other wise good response that phantasia made. I was also coming at it from a general point of view because when it comes to yearning for companionship, love or whatever else you want to call it, it doesnt really matter what you are in to.

and lastly, i never said being a virgin was a bad thing. At one point in my very christian life back then, i was one of the kids that made the decision to not have sex until married, but we all know how that turned out. I simple tried to summarize the psychological effects that come with the territory especially in this day and age when you cant even see one ad anywhere that isn't sexualized in some form. Again, my response wasn't meant to be an attack on junior or anyone. Now if you want to dissect what i said and counter some points, by all means go ahead, but please make sure we are at least on the same page

I didn't claim you were attacking him and I wasn't trying to attack you, I apologize if I came off that way. I recognize you were trying to make a general point and what you said wasn't necessary wrong, but from what I've read and experienced, it's different. I do agree with with you that it doesn't matter who you love, and I think it would be true if if a gay guy could walk up to any guy and ask him out with out any fear, but that's sadly not the case at this time.

Honestly, I guess I just didn't like how you worded the first part of the paragraph. To me, it just came off really negative as if you were saying "Hey, if you don't do this or this before you're twenty, then you're seriously messed up." Again, my apologies for assuming, I've had to deal with people like that before and so I get kind of jumpy around comments like that. Hope we're on the same page now. Meh dissecting things make me sick, so I'll leave that to someone else. :P

 

[junior]

oh I do enjoy my single life, trust me. I see couples and I'm just like thank god I don't have to dedicate my time to anybody, but then I think if it was a certain someone I would make all efforts to be with them.

So while I am loving single life, I'm not ignorant to the pros and cons of being in a relationship now that I have been in love and not to mention witnessing countless relationships fall apart. The scary thing about being in a relationship is not having time for your friends tho. I barely have enough time for majority of them as it is.

I had a good day today though, despite bar hopping being cancelled. A couple of my gay friends, (BAN ME PLEASE) hags and I spent the entire day on Grindr just talking to people on my newly created profile and I already have a few guys lined up omfg (it still doesn't make me any happier though but it at least took my mind off the negative shit for a while)

Honestly though, I'm happy being single. I'm just heartbroken. The same guy broke my heart twice in less than a year! I'm an idiot and I just need emotional rebounds right now haha

 

[VarunR]

just recently broke up with my girlfriend of two months, after three weeks of intense emotional abuse and torture. Angry and hurt, I dug her past out and have found out that she's a narcissist and pathological liar.

will lay it out in detail soon enough. Interesting story in it's own way.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

I think that popular culture has so glorified the concept of "serious relationships" to the point that it is seen as an integral, fixed point in both human development and any sort of path to fulfillment. It may be for some people, but it's certainly not for everyone, and I think it's toxic to suggest so. Some people are inevitably going to miss out on these milestones. How do you think they're going to feel if their friends and society are telling them that they were supposed to have met them? If not sad, probably desperate.

Moreover, the problem with this notion is that it is simply not true. I grant that the majority of people find happiness with intimate relationships, but I deny that it is an absolute truth, applicable to each and every human, and I further deny that there is an age at which it is necessary to seek such a relationship in order to be truly happy. Is the traditional nuclear marriage/family absolutely necessary for happiness, too? Certainly not to many of the posters in this thread. For any phase of development, there is never any happiness-achieving norm that is applicable to all.

I've encountered many people who hold views in opposition to mine, and they are well-meaning, but seem to think (or at least imply) that there is only a single way to achieve certain forms of happiness--either based on their perception of the norm or their own experiences. Sure, it works for them; sure, it works for many people. It just doesn't work for everyone.

 

[tape]

words of wisdom.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Eo Ut Mortus-- I agree with all the things you said. I don't think the value of the nuclear family is based on an absolute truth; certainly not an absolute truth of human reproduction. Natural human reproduction strategies and forms of attraction are as many as the stars. There is no one shape inherent to happiness.

I think the proponents of traditional marriage (which I count myself among) should understand its purpose is not in granting the perfect way to achieve happiness for an individual. To say so would be absolutely ludicrous as you have implied.

Traditional marriage systems (plural, as there are variations based on culture) have their merit in practical/pragmatic benefit for society-- NOT for aspousing an absolute truth of human love.

-Traditional marriages promote stable, accountable, easily manageable units on which society can be built.

-They ensure that stable numbers of children will be born (with a dedicated mate, a woman has a greater chance of achieving pregnancy than through chance matings)

-They ensure these children will grow up in a relatively stable environment without draining society's resources (children take a lot of resources to grow up, and genuinely speaking 2 parents working together to do so is more efficient)

-Traditional marriages "tame" males (making them stable, productive members of society instead of wandering play-boys)

-Traditional marriages "tame" males (making them stable, productive members of society instead of rogue militants, criminals, rabble rousers, etc.)

-Cultures where monogamous traditional marriages are the norm ensure more males opportunities to mate and have young (by preventing some from taking more wives, you prevent having too many bachelors-- something that can lead to war and civil unrest in times of old)

And so forth.

Physically, humans are pathetically weak. We derive our power and success as a species from our intellectual ability yes-- but only in working together. Society is our greatest weapon and ally.

The traditional marriage's great value lies not in maximizing happiness, or as a philosophy-- it's value is based on the pragmatic.


On that note, I'd like to share a post I made for junior's thread, but I thought actually belongs here more:

I actually prefer a society where people can be more honest with themselves and their desires. I also prefer one where love and romance are not overly glorified.

The best couples have relationships built on mutual understanding of dedication to a greater goal; the family (and children) are more important than simple romance.

Afterall, love is not burning immortal-- the relationships that last are between people who appreciate "cool" love, matured love; not passion, but satisfaction at having accomplished something together.


Without those values, you get the society of today--
-a divorce rate of 50%,
-the idea of "marriage" becoming a hollow shell of its former self, with no real meaning or sanctity
-where marriage exists only to promote the selfish desires of individuals
-and has nothing to do with protecting families or children, nor anything to do with becoming a respectable adult connected to society

All these things are truly unfortunate in my mind; and mean disorder and a path down a darker road. All of this is connected to our obsession with love (and other non-related cultural/societal problems to be fair).



To be honest, societies are better where young people are not "out to fall in love for love's sake", but instead are pragmatic and honest about their needs. So, I applaud more traditional cultures where young people are not repulsed by the idea of arranged marriage.

I think the internet is definitely a step in the right direction for dating in the western world. I hope it will dull the ridiculous over glamorization of romance by making things much more accessible; removing the desperation of romance. Remove love's rarity in order to remove people's idolization of it.

I hope it will help people become more candid and pragmatic in their relationships.

However, in the modern world, I acknowledge that traditional marriage is not the right route for everyone-- and I APPLAUD those who make this realization for themselves.

To those who are honest and candid about their own needs and desires-- I have only the greatest respect, whatever those desires may be.

To those who can candidly express those desires without shame, and seek out a partner, partners, or none at all (seeking only hook-ups or what not), who have the same desire and perspective; again, that deserves nothing but my best wishes.

:D

Basically-- I just think people will be happier if we can all be more honest with ourselves.

 

[Pocket]

I understand where you're coming from, but I do not get why people want their marriage to be arranged. You're letting some 3rd party to determine your soul mate! I guess peer pressure from such 3rd party's expectations prevent these arranged couples from filing a divorce, but I'm pretty sure there are couples who are unhappy with their pairing. It just seems overly pragmatic to the point that you're sacrificing an individual's autonomy for this societal "pragmatism." I certainly don't desire such pragmatism, and I certainly want to marry the girl of my own choosing.

Chou Toshio, what would you do if you were arranged to marry a girl with small breasts xP (I mean, I personally wouldn't mind)?

EDIT: Ah okay, I misunderstood you then. your take home message are these:

Furthermore, it can be implied that both sides are acknowledging that there is something more important than simple romantic feelings. Something more important than a "meeting of fate." A dedication to family, to children-- to a higher purpose than love.

I also think that if people understood that marriage belongs not only to themselves, but also to both families and society-- people would have a better understanding of the purpose of marriage, and that marriages would be more stable, and meaningful.

which I can appreciate deeply and fully agree with

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Ah Pocket, sorry I didn't specify, but I wasn't speaking of "Ye Olde Arranged Marriages" where both sides have no choice but to marry.

I guess I was thinking more about modern day arranged marriages in Japan (and maybe India is similar?), where parents or other party act as a go-between to introduce the man and woman-- not force them to marry. The choice to marry or not still lies with the individuals.

I did not mean to imply that loss of individual autonomy is a good thing-- that wasn't my intention at all.

In this type of meeting explicitly for the purpose of introducing a potential marriage partner, both sides are acknowledging (or being honest with) their own desire and need for companionship. Furthermore, it can be implied that both sides are acknowledging that there is something more important than simple romantic feelings. Something more important than a "meeting of fate." A dedication to family, to children-- to a higher purpose than love.


While not all people may find marriage as meaningful, and still others refuse marriage in its traditional forms--

In its traditional forms, marriage is not just between a man and woman.

It is between a man and woman on one side-- and the community and society on the other. It is the last "coming of age" ceremony-- the agreement between couple and society that they will now join it as full adults, productive members, protecting the traditions and way of life of the family, household, community.

A marriage between a couple should be something that both families and the community can recognize-- having parents and family directly involved with the pairing pays respects to that notion.

While the things I have outlined above might not speak to all people-- they have great meaning to myself, and many others.

While I don't agree that the old way of forcing two people to be together is good-- I don't agree with removing the individual's autonomy, as it should still come down to the man and woman to decide to marry or not--

I do think that candid introductions are admirable; and every bit as worthy of a marriage as a chance meeting.

I also think that if people understood that marriage belongs not only to themselves, but also to both families and society-- people would have a better understanding of the purpose of marriage, and that marriages would be more stable, and meaningful.