to quote DTC, the point of the definitions is to give a rough guide. it's not a legalistic system that needs to be adhered to word for word. so could we please stop hyper-analyzing all of the definitions and trying to use them to justify arguments as opposed to simply providing actual reasons? thanks
Politoed is clearly S rank, no doubt about it. Drizzle alone is already worthy of S Rank for a bunch of reasons (DrizzleSwim, Double STAB, Reduced Fire weakness) but besides that it has useful offensive presence and a nice support move. Nollan, I think you're missing the point here. The issue isn't if Politoed has flaws or not, since it does just like any mon. It's whether the positives outweigh the flaws enough that its an S Rank mon. Sure, Politoed isn't the best Water type support mon in the tier. In fact, Manaphy directly outclasses it in terms of a support set (has better stats across the board, HH and icy wind). However, Politoed has something that Manaphy doesn't, which is Drizzle. That means that a lot of the time, Politoed is a better pick than Manaphy if you're only choosing one. Besides that though, even though I just said Manaphy is better than Politoed, that doesn't mean Politoed is bad. It is still able to perform its role as a Rain supporter to great effect, and it's definitely not the dead weight that you're making it out to be. Also Politoed can definitely threaten Tyranitar as well, not just Ninetales (defensive sets have a 30% chance to make it useless with Scald and offensive sets can just KO it).
Your point regarding Tyranitar isn't as valid as it may seem, since while yes, Tyranitar can fulfill a lot of roles, that doesn't mean that people are choosing it for any reason other than Sand. If that were true, people would be using Unnerve TTar (which no one is). Sand is what takes Tyranitar up that extra notch, (gives it the 50% SDef boost that lets it tank hits alot better, lets it screw up other weathers, allows it to be an enabler for things like Excadrill to rampage) and Tyranitar would definitely not be touched very often if not for Sand, since then all of its flaws start to look a lot worse compared to its benefits (are you really gonna use a slow, Rain weak, Intimidate prone mon to check Trick Room instead of like Bisharp or a Taunter most of the time if not for Sand Stream?) In the same way, while yes, Politoed isn't the greatest at any of its roles, Drizzle + the ability to fulfill these roles fairly well is what pushes Politoed up that extra notch.
I think the real problem is that you're seperating Politoed and Drizzle and trying to analyze them apart from one another, when everyone will agree with you that Politoed's main draw is Drizzle. However, the fact that its best asset is Drizzle isn't something it should be penalized for, and the fact that it isn't the best supporter or attacker in the tier without Drizzle is no reason to keep it from S Rank.
Ok I don't see how Prankster allows it to do any of those things significantly better than other things do. Your point #1 isn't as great as you're makin it out to be since speed is determined at the beginning of the turn, so regardless of whether or not you paralyze it that turn or not you'll still be outsped for the turn, meaning if you could live a hit with something like Room-W you can still paralyze the mon. The only thing that makes Prankster any better is that you can hit before a Sub but those aren't used much anyways and while it's nice, it's not S rank nice. Plus anyone could see a paralysis coming from a mile away so it's not that hard to simply switch out and hit Thundurus with the other mon. So while yes, it can threaten fast mons with a paralysis, so can plenty of other T-Wave users, and while it is better, it's not better enough to warrant an S rank. Point #2 is even worse than point #1 imo since stall is nonexistent and thus shouldn't be taken into account anyways, but even if you did, both stall mons and TR users are shut down by just about any Taunt user, regardless of Prankster (especially since Trick Room is like -7 in the priority bracket). Point #3 is more legitimate, but if you're running a speedy attacker set you are gonna be dying a lot faster since Thundurus loses its bulkiness. While the Speed tier is nice, it is easily picked off by either anything that lives a move or some good prediction due to Thundurus's middling uninvested bulk.
But yeah, basically I just don't think Thundurus is as good as the other S Rank mons. In my experiences facing Thundurus, it has never been a problem to play around for me. In my mind it simply isn't as threatening as an S Rank mon should be.
Politoed is clearly S rank, no doubt about it. Drizzle alone is already worthy of S Rank for a bunch of reasons (DrizzleSwim, Double STAB, Reduced Fire weakness) but besides that it has useful offensive presence and a nice support move. Nollan, I think you're missing the point here. The issue isn't if Politoed has flaws or not, since it does just like any mon. It's whether the positives outweigh the flaws enough that its an S Rank mon. Sure, Politoed isn't the best Water type support mon in the tier. In fact, Manaphy directly outclasses it in terms of a support set (has better stats across the board, HH and icy wind). However, Politoed has something that Manaphy doesn't, which is Drizzle. That means that a lot of the time, Politoed is a better pick than Manaphy if you're only choosing one. Besides that though, even though I just said Manaphy is better than Politoed, that doesn't mean Politoed is bad. It is still able to perform its role as a Rain supporter to great effect, and it's definitely not the dead weight that you're making it out to be. Also Politoed can definitely threaten Tyranitar as well, not just Ninetales (defensive sets have a 30% chance to make it useless with Scald and offensive sets can just KO it).
Your point regarding Tyranitar isn't as valid as it may seem, since while yes, Tyranitar can fulfill a lot of roles, that doesn't mean that people are choosing it for any reason other than Sand. If that were true, people would be using Unnerve TTar (which no one is). Sand is what takes Tyranitar up that extra notch, (gives it the 50% SDef boost that lets it tank hits alot better, lets it screw up other weathers, allows it to be an enabler for things like Excadrill to rampage) and Tyranitar would definitely not be touched very often if not for Sand, since then all of its flaws start to look a lot worse compared to its benefits (are you really gonna use a slow, Rain weak, Intimidate prone mon to check Trick Room instead of like Bisharp or a Taunter most of the time if not for Sand Stream?) In the same way, while yes, Politoed isn't the greatest at any of its roles, Drizzle + the ability to fulfill these roles fairly well is what pushes Politoed up that extra notch.
I think the real problem is that you're seperating Politoed and Drizzle and trying to analyze them apart from one another, when everyone will agree with you that Politoed's main draw is Drizzle. However, the fact that its best asset is Drizzle isn't something it should be penalized for, and the fact that it isn't the best supporter or attacker in the tier without Drizzle is no reason to keep it from S Rank.
Yeah but the entire reason why it is much better than all other Thunder Wave + Taunt pokemon is because of Prankster. In the fast paced metagame of Doubles, Prankster + T-Wave is a godsend due to it's ability to fill 3 roles in 4 moves:
1) completely shit on fast paced teams like Tailwind or DrizzleSwim spam teams with Prankster Thunder Wave. This also pressures them into switching out fearing death from one of your hard hitters, so you can paralyze more things n_n
2) completely shuts down Trick Room or the rare stall with Prankster Taunt.
3) actually does good damage with semi BoltBeam and 125 base SpA. It also sits at a near perfect speed tier of 111 allowing it to outspeed all the "fast" pokemon that sit from 100 to 110 base speed. Let me give you a list; Manaphy, Jirachi, Salamence, Zapdos, Garchomp, Infernape, Terrakion, Latios, Latias, Gengar i guess.
These are all pokemon that you use thinking they will be faster than most things, and getting the jump over all of these is a fantastic trait.
I think it is S rank for filling 3 awesome roles with a single set.
Ok I don't see how Prankster allows it to do any of those things significantly better than other things do. Your point #1 isn't as great as you're makin it out to be since speed is determined at the beginning of the turn, so regardless of whether or not you paralyze it that turn or not you'll still be outsped for the turn, meaning if you could live a hit with something like Room-W you can still paralyze the mon. The only thing that makes Prankster any better is that you can hit before a Sub but those aren't used much anyways and while it's nice, it's not S rank nice. Plus anyone could see a paralysis coming from a mile away so it's not that hard to simply switch out and hit Thundurus with the other mon. So while yes, it can threaten fast mons with a paralysis, so can plenty of other T-Wave users, and while it is better, it's not better enough to warrant an S rank. Point #2 is even worse than point #1 imo since stall is nonexistent and thus shouldn't be taken into account anyways, but even if you did, both stall mons and TR users are shut down by just about any Taunt user, regardless of Prankster (especially since Trick Room is like -7 in the priority bracket). Point #3 is more legitimate, but if you're running a speedy attacker set you are gonna be dying a lot faster since Thundurus loses its bulkiness. While the Speed tier is nice, it is easily picked off by either anything that lives a move or some good prediction due to Thundurus's middling uninvested bulk.
But yeah, basically I just don't think Thundurus is as good as the other S Rank mons. In my experiences facing Thundurus, it has never been a problem to play around for me. In my mind it simply isn't as threatening as an S Rank mon should be.
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