What if there was reverse lifeorb (lets call it guardian orb) that restores 10% of the holders health at the end of turn but cuts the power of all its attacks by 30%? Ferrothorn, jellicent, blissey, scarmory, tentacruel come to mind but drop in power could be bad for some of them. Would this item be used much or would people still use leftys? Also would some setup sweepers like toxicroak use this item? Hailstall, sandstall & rainstall might like this item im sure
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Theorymon Discussion and Viability Ranking
- Thread starter Chou Toshio
- Start date
So I sent this to ginganinja in conversation, but just so that it's known what my opinion is here, and so other mods/thread users can see, here's my post regarding a move to OM (which I am against)--
To be honest, I was a bit surprised when I first found out there were theorymon threads in metagame forums, and I can see the point of doubt. That being said, if theorymon threads are reasonable in metagame forums, I don't think that anything has changed to cause the theorymon thread to be removed.
^this is not the case-- we are still the former. The thread is still about how x would affect the OU meta-- the only difference is we're actually trying to see how it would.
I've made it a point of telling "testers" to test with the actual OU metagame in mind, not the metagame made by the mix of all the threats-- you'll notice there is NO discussion about a metagame built by Zapdos, Escavalier, Arcanine, etc. There is ONLY discussion of individual Pokemon.
I just believe it's more conducive and fun to test many things at once. Since we won't ever have a lot of traffic, it just doesn't make sense to test things one at a time; this thread is about experimenting.
So no-- the intention is not at all to make a new metagame. The intention is still about discussing theorymons; how x would affect the meta. Even as we make the viability ranking list, each threat will be ranked based on theorymon'd performance in OU-- not in a metagame made by mixing threats.
Also you'll notice that even since my post, the vast majority of posts are traditional theorymon posts-- it's just nice to see that the traffic has actually picked up in the thread.
tl;dr-- if you think Theorymon threads don't belong in metagame forums as a group, I can see the justification for the move (and I would expect to see all the sister threads in other forums moved to OM as well). If you think a big change has happened in the nature of the thread with relation to OU-- that's just not the case. We're still focused on OU, and if you move the thread to OM, I'm pretty sure it will die without frequent visits from OU posters.
To be honest, I was a bit surprised when I first found out there were theorymon threads in metagame forums, and I can see the point of doubt. That being said, if theorymon threads are reasonable in metagame forums, I don't think that anything has changed to cause the theorymon thread to be removed.
^this is not the case-- we are still the former. The thread is still about how x would affect the OU meta-- the only difference is we're actually trying to see how it would.
I've made it a point of telling "testers" to test with the actual OU metagame in mind, not the metagame made by the mix of all the threats-- you'll notice there is NO discussion about a metagame built by Zapdos, Escavalier, Arcanine, etc. There is ONLY discussion of individual Pokemon.
I just believe it's more conducive and fun to test many things at once. Since we won't ever have a lot of traffic, it just doesn't make sense to test things one at a time; this thread is about experimenting.
So no-- the intention is not at all to make a new metagame. The intention is still about discussing theorymons; how x would affect the meta. Even as we make the viability ranking list, each threat will be ranked based on theorymon'd performance in OU-- not in a metagame made by mixing threats.
Also you'll notice that even since my post, the vast majority of posts are traditional theorymon posts-- it's just nice to see that the traffic has actually picked up in the thread.
tl;dr-- if you think Theorymon threads don't belong in metagame forums as a group, I can see the justification for the move (and I would expect to see all the sister threads in other forums moved to OM as well). If you think a big change has happened in the nature of the thread with relation to OU-- that's just not the case. We're still focused on OU, and if you move the thread to OM, I'm pretty sure it will die without frequent visits from OU posters.
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O.k Chou and I have discussed things on irc, and ill retract my earlier position. Just be be clear, individual theorymon is encouraged, but I want to avoid people discussing a meta with these mons, for instance I would want to avoid people saying (for instance) Sand Rush Darmanitan counters Technician Weavile. These mons are to be looked at individually in relation to the current OU metagame. So long as this occurs I am 100% committed to keeping this in the OU forum.
Have a nice day.
Have a nice day.
Ginganinja's concerns are perfectly well placed-- and I have not done enough to make the importance of the above points clear. To do so, I have added these strict rules to the OP about the testing/tiering discussion:
Rules for Theorymon Ranking/Testing:
1) NO DISCUSSION OF THEORYMON AS A METAGAME
2) Each theorymon is ONLY to be discussed INDIVIDUALLY in reference to the actual OU metagame
3) Even though we test theorymons simultaneously, each theorymon ranked will be based on theorymonning in reference to the ACTUAL OU.
1) NO DISCUSSION OF THEORYMON AS A METAGAME
2) Each theorymon is ONLY to be discussed INDIVIDUALLY in reference to the actual OU metagame
3) Even though we test theorymons simultaneously, each theorymon ranked will be based on theorymonning in reference to the ACTUAL OU.
It would have to only work whenever the user attacked with a damaging move, just like life orb.
No it shouldn't, that'd make it way, way worse than lefties.
Yeah that's what i was aiming for. Guess i should have mentioned it :p.
What if...
/
Hippowdon was a Ground / Water type Pokemon?
I don't think I even have to justify this flavor-wise-- I mean, it's a Hippo. If anything, it's more strange that it is weak to water, and doesn't get moves like Surf or Mud Shot.
So what if Hippo was a Swampert clone type wise-- still packing that amazing Sandstream, but now neutral to Ice, Water, and resistant to Fire?
What about the addition of moves like Aqua Tail and Scald to its movepool?
I think it would give a completely different dynamic to the weather war-- what do you think?
0 SpA Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 70-84 (16.66 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 222-262 (52.85 - 62.38%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
Hippowdon was a Ground / Water type Pokemon?
I don't think I even have to justify this flavor-wise-- I mean, it's a Hippo. If anything, it's more strange that it is weak to water, and doesn't get moves like Surf or Mud Shot.
So what if Hippo was a Swampert clone type wise-- still packing that amazing Sandstream, but now neutral to Ice, Water, and resistant to Fire?
What about the addition of moves like Aqua Tail and Scald to its movepool?
I think it would give a completely different dynamic to the weather war-- what do you think?
0 SpA Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 70-84 (16.66 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 222-262 (52.85 - 62.38%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
Being able to switch into Kyurem Black? Hell yes! This dual typing would also allow it to function decently in rain, with the boosted Scalds and whatnot. I can see some 4MSS though. It wants to have Scald, Whirlwind, Toxic, Slack Off, Earthquake, and Stealth Rock. That being said, Hippowdon would be a beast stallbot. I mean, it only takes 55% from Specs Draco Meteor from Latios. Its only real weakness was powerful water type moves and powerful ice type moves. I think Hippowdon would become a stall staple.
This would be so good. Being able to take neutral damage from water and ice attacks would be huge. it would wall kyure-b more, starmie, politoed, and most rain attacks. Not only that, but it changes the weather when it comes in to sponge an attack. Adding Scald would be the nail in the coffin. Hippo would be a top tier OU wall in my eyes, and would wall so much more relevant stuff than it already does.What if...
/
Hippowdon was a Ground / Water type Pokemon?
I don't think I even have to justify this flavor-wise-- I mean, it's a Hippo. If anything, it's more strange that it is weak to water, and doesn't get moves like Surf or Mud Shot.
So what if Hippo was a Swampert clone type wise-- still packing that amazing Sandstream, but now neutral to Ice, Water, and resistant to Fire?
What about the addition of moves like Aqua Tail and Scald to its movepool?
I think it would give a completely different dynamic to the weather war-- what do you think?
0 SpA Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 70-84 (16.66 - 20%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 222-262 (52.85 - 62.38%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
Hippo is a bit underused as it is
Also Chou nice job on the new OP, but I'm sad because I missed some discussion because when the thread was changed it made me un-watch it (i assumed no discussion was going on because i didn't get any alerts) :[
The 4x grass weakness is something to consider though-- Hippo would get clocked by any random solar beam or HP Grass. It would also get destroyed trying to switch into magma storm heatran... :/
Ninetales and politoed could possibly deal with hippo more easily which would be bad but the resistances might be worth it
Also
What if chansey/blissey got unaware?
Clefable gets it, so its possible. Chansey/blissey would become nightmares since if u cant 2hko or cripple, they won't die. Blissey still has problems with physical moves/psyshock but its still an improvement
Eh, without natural cure they are forced to use heal bell everytime they get toxiced, dunno if it would be a good trade. Chansey could actually wall dd dnite so ill give it that. But blissey simply doesnt have the phys bulk to handle phys attackers while it already walls most sp attackers anyway.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 348-412 (82.85 - 98.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Don't know if it would be THAT much better. Yes, you're dropping two weaknesses but for something as sturdy as Hippowdon I don't know if I want to compromise bulk like that. Then again, I don't know stall/semi-stall for shit so someone could probably better elaborate on that.
Don't know if it would be THAT much better. Yes, you're dropping two weaknesses but for something as sturdy as Hippowdon I don't know if I want to compromise bulk like that. Then again, I don't know stall/semi-stall for shit so someone could probably better elaborate on that.
What if Azumarill got...
...Rapid Spin?
...Belly Drum + Aqua Jet?
Now, look at Azurill's Ruby Pokedex entry: Azurill spins its tail as if it were a lasso, then hurls it far. The momentum of the throw sends its body flying, too. Using this unique action, one of these Pokémon managed to hurl itself a record 33 feet.
It makes sense for Azurill to get Rapid Spin, and obviously by extension Marill/Azumarill too. Also, Azumarill can get Aqua Jet and Belly Drum, but not both at the same time, because they are egg moves from different chains. If Azumarill had access to both these, how would it change?
Now, for Rapid Spin Azumarill- This calc is very interesting:
252+ Atk Splash Plate Huge Power Azumarill Fling (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.56%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP/252 SpDef/4 SpA Calm was the most used Jellicent EV spread last month, with about %22 usage. And Azumarill has a decent chance to OHKO it with just SR on the field. Azumarill would be the only spinner that can OHKO both spinblockers. In addition to sky-high attack, Aqua Jet likely boosted by Rain letting it revenge lots of attackers, it also has access to Encore and Perish Song and decent 100/80/80 bulk.
For Belly Drum + Aqua Jet, it would be very hard to find time to Belly Drum, but if Azumarill pulls it off, it's probably gg. Belly Drum/Aqua Jet/Brick Break/Fling @ Splash Plate under rain would just, like, kill everything. It also resists Bullet Punch and Ice Shard and also it can survive LO 252+ Lucario's Extremespeed after SR + Drum about half of the time. It also beats offensive DDNite under rain: It always survives 252+ Dragonite's Extremespeed after SR + Drum (It does 29.45 - 34.65%), and does 92.26 - 108.66% with Aqua Jet if MultiScale is broken.
What do you say?
...Rapid Spin?
...Belly Drum + Aqua Jet?
Now, look at Azurill's Ruby Pokedex entry: Azurill spins its tail as if it were a lasso, then hurls it far. The momentum of the throw sends its body flying, too. Using this unique action, one of these Pokémon managed to hurl itself a record 33 feet.
It makes sense for Azurill to get Rapid Spin, and obviously by extension Marill/Azumarill too. Also, Azumarill can get Aqua Jet and Belly Drum, but not both at the same time, because they are egg moves from different chains. If Azumarill had access to both these, how would it change?
Now, for Rapid Spin Azumarill- This calc is very interesting:
252+ Atk Splash Plate Huge Power Azumarill Fling (90 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.56%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP/252 SpDef/4 SpA Calm was the most used Jellicent EV spread last month, with about %22 usage. And Azumarill has a decent chance to OHKO it with just SR on the field. Azumarill would be the only spinner that can OHKO both spinblockers. In addition to sky-high attack, Aqua Jet likely boosted by Rain letting it revenge lots of attackers, it also has access to Encore and Perish Song and decent 100/80/80 bulk.
For Belly Drum + Aqua Jet, it would be very hard to find time to Belly Drum, but if Azumarill pulls it off, it's probably gg. Belly Drum/Aqua Jet/Brick Break/Fling @ Splash Plate under rain would just, like, kill everything. It also resists Bullet Punch and Ice Shard and also it can survive LO 252+ Lucario's Extremespeed after SR + Drum about half of the time. It also beats offensive DDNite under rain: It always survives 252+ Dragonite's Extremespeed after SR + Drum (It does 29.45 - 34.65%), and does 92.26 - 108.66% with Aqua Jet if MultiScale is broken.
What do you say?
@ Water / Ground Hippowdon
This thing would be even more metagame defining as it is now, it could even be the number 1 used Pokemon in OU. With this typing Hippowdon would be able to better handle defensive Politoed, Heatran, Weavile, Gyarados, Volcarona, Cloyster, Kyurem-B, Kyurem, Jolteon, Thundurus-T, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Latios, Latias, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Starmie, and Tentacruel. Hippowdon would undoubtedly become the best weather inducer, with its ability to check or wall ~half the metagame plus reliable recovery. Being able to switch into defensive Politoed without worries (as long as you have a cleric in your team) is a godsend for sand teams, taking some pressure of from the bulky Grass-type that they usually carry.
And as for HP Grass on Politoed and Solarbeam on Ninetales it's really not that much of a deal. Defensive Politoed's Scald has 240 BP against Hippowdon while HP Grass has 280, and HP Grass on defensive Politoed would be very hard to fit anyway. On more offensive sets Hydro Pump and even Surf do the same or more damage against Hippowdon, so HP Grass is really a non-issue, or at least nothing that Hippo didn't have troubles with before. As for Ninetales, it needs to use Sunny Day as Hippo comes in, telegraphing the use of Solarbeam and making it very easy for Hippo to avoid it.
This thing would be even more metagame defining as it is now, it could even be the number 1 used Pokemon in OU. With this typing Hippowdon would be able to better handle defensive Politoed, Heatran, Weavile, Gyarados, Volcarona, Cloyster, Kyurem-B, Kyurem, Jolteon, Thundurus-T, Rotom-W, Keldeo, Latios, Latias, Magnezone, Mamoswine, Starmie, and Tentacruel. Hippowdon would undoubtedly become the best weather inducer, with its ability to check or wall ~half the metagame plus reliable recovery. Being able to switch into defensive Politoed without worries (as long as you have a cleric in your team) is a godsend for sand teams, taking some pressure of from the bulky Grass-type that they usually carry.
And as for HP Grass on Politoed and Solarbeam on Ninetales it's really not that much of a deal. Defensive Politoed's Scald has 240 BP against Hippowdon while HP Grass has 280, and HP Grass on defensive Politoed would be very hard to fit anyway. On more offensive sets Hydro Pump and even Surf do the same or more damage against Hippowdon, so HP Grass is really a non-issue, or at least nothing that Hippo didn't have troubles with before. As for Ninetales, it needs to use Sunny Day as Hippo comes in, telegraphing the use of Solarbeam and making it very easy for Hippo to avoid it.
Volcarona already frequently carries giga drain, Thundurus-T semi-frequently carries grass knot, and this would make things like heatran, jolteon and rotom-w carry hp grass a lot more frequently than they do now, making it even scarier to switch into all of these threats ( besides rotom-w lol )
This is exactly my reasoning; I'll take all of those amazing resistances in exchange for a 4x weakness to grass. It'd be able to check so much more in exchange for having to deal with hp grass. I think more things would run hp grass, but hippo would be so good despite that. The 4x wekaness is well worth it. Also when partnered with Heatran or Scizor, it would pretty pretty awesome.
Well rapid spin would be awesome, and would perhaps it would open up for a defensive Azumarill.
belly drum + aqua jet would obviously be amazing, but i think it would pretty hard for Azumarill to get a BD up.. However, if it wasn't already necessary, teams would have to use priority (the best would probably be Breloom). It'd be really, really good dont get me wrong, be stuff like Belly Dum Dragonite would obviously be better. ESpeed has better neutral coverage, +2 priority, and can run better coverage moves. Then again, Azumarill gets its STAB boosted in rain and has a higher Atk stat than Dragonite. I still think BD nite would be better, but both would be pretty crazy.
Giga Drain on Volcarona is a fair concern which i forgot, true. However Grass Knot on Thundurus-T was already beating up Hippo to the point of either making it useless or outright killing it so it's not that much of a difference. Grass Knot Thund-T beats Hippo regardless if it has the Water typing or not. As for Jolteon and Heatran carrying HP Grass, that's not easy at all to do, and it comes with a cost. Both two appreciate a lot that HP Ice provides and if they gave this up just to hurt Hippo then this would mean that Hippo would already be so common and centralizing to warrant this.
What if Pikachu had Huge Power?
I hate seeing the series mascot so under powered and unable to compete with anything in the OU tier. pikachu has light ball as a freebie, but what if it had access to huge power to combine with light ball? Pikachu has access to very usable move pool, with extreme speed for priority, thunder punch / volt tackle for stabs, and brick break / focus punch for a coverage pikachu could punch holes in OU teams behind a sub, and would make an excellent extreme speed revenge killer
I hate seeing the series mascot so under powered and unable to compete with anything in the OU tier. pikachu has light ball as a freebie, but what if it had access to huge power to combine with light ball? Pikachu has access to very usable move pool, with extreme speed for priority, thunder punch / volt tackle for stabs, and brick break / focus punch for a coverage pikachu could punch holes in OU teams behind a sub, and would make an excellent extreme speed revenge killer
hidden power ghost / dark gives better coverage
^Hidden Power's purpose is to give super-effective coverage on specific threats. Base 70 unstabbed moves aren't very powerful unless SE.
On the subject of Huge Power Pikachu: I don't think it really makes sense flavor-wise, but a 916 base attack stat is pretty sexy. However, this limits Pikachu's item choice, making it pretty predictable. Not that Pikachu would be good at anything else- Scarf sets are outclassed and base 90 speed isn't all that great for a offensive mon. Band/LO/boosting attack item of choice are outclassed by Light Ball sets. Pikachu also has a severe lack of bulk- OHKOed by pretty much everything. To illustrate its frailty, it takes 18% from Forretress univested Rapid Spin. However, it does have some POWAH!
Some calcs: (all with Huge Power and Light Ball)
Copy paste won't work dammit
Ferrothorn (Standard): Thunder Punch Max 39.72% DOMMAGE
Landorus-T (Offensive Pivot): ExtremeSpeed Max 60.7%
Forretress (Physically Defensive): Thunder Punch Max 59.82% DOMMAGE
These are some of the sturdiest physical walls in OU... Goddamn!
On the subject of Huge Power Pikachu: I don't think it really makes sense flavor-wise, but a 916 base attack stat is pretty sexy. However, this limits Pikachu's item choice, making it pretty predictable. Not that Pikachu would be good at anything else- Scarf sets are outclassed and base 90 speed isn't all that great for a offensive mon. Band/LO/boosting attack item of choice are outclassed by Light Ball sets. Pikachu also has a severe lack of bulk- OHKOed by pretty much everything. To illustrate its frailty, it takes 18% from Forretress univested Rapid Spin. However, it does have some POWAH!
Some calcs: (all with Huge Power and Light Ball)
Copy paste won't work dammit
Ferrothorn (Standard): Thunder Punch Max 39.72% DOMMAGE
Landorus-T (Offensive Pivot): ExtremeSpeed Max 60.7%
Forretress (Physically Defensive): Thunder Punch Max 59.82% DOMMAGE
These are some of the sturdiest physical walls in OU... Goddamn!
Too elaborate on ogasian's point, HP Ghost/dark only gives coverage against jellicent, which is hit by hp electric anyways. Also hp dark has less coverage than hp ghost.
I hate seeing the series mascot so under powered and unable to compete with anything in the OU tier. pikachu has light ball as a freebie, but what if it had access to huge power to combine with light ball? Pikachu has access to very usable move pool, with extreme speed for priority, thunder punch / volt tackle for stabs, and brick break / focus punch for a coverage pikachu could punch holes in OU teams behind a sub, and would make an excellent extreme speed revenge killer[/quote]
Huge Power Pikachu makes some sense flavor-wise, as Game Freak only gives Huge Power to things with very low attack stats (except MegaMawile lol). Those calcs are convincing, but Pikachu is incredibly frail. Like, this thing is paper-thin. It can hardly take any hits in NU, let alone OU. I really don't think Huge Power Pikachu would be OU good, despite that power, it has zero bulk.
4 SpA Light Ball Pikachu Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 180-212 (51.13 - 60.22%) -- 84.38% chance to 2HKO
I wouldn't say it's completely out of the question. Especially since Pikachu gets Volt Tackle. But really, I'm looking at the calcs and you either resist or are immune to Volt Tackle, and that's the only way you wall it. Even then, there's a LOT of resists that are being 2HKOd.
I wouldn't say it's completely out of the question. Especially since Pikachu gets Volt Tackle. But really, I'm looking at the calcs and you either resist or are immune to Volt Tackle, and that's the only way you wall it. Even then, there's a LOT of resists that are being 2HKOd.
Then again, if you'd keep on Volt Tackling Pikachu would die soon enough (hello base 35 HP). He's also outsped by many things, and while that can be overcome partially with Extremespeed, it's still very hard to OHKO something with Extremespeed, wheras Pikachu himself is OHKO'd by pretty much anything that's not pink.