Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[Lord Disick]

Reuniclus is slow as shit, and often has to take hits before it can hit back. McGengar can outspeed the majority of the metagame and comfortably 2HKO anything it can kill. Stall teams can also switch out of Reuniclus if they don't want to lose a specific wall. Your Ferrothorn threatened by Reuniclus Focus Blast/HP Fire? Bye, see ya later Reuniclus. Ferrothorn threatened by Big Mac? Switch ou- oh shit, Shadow Tag. Nice knowing you Ferrothorn. Against Stall teams, where switching is pretty much their whole deal, the ability of McGengar to reliably trap and kill any wall it is able to kill will put huge holes in Stall's defenses and shut it down immediately.


You don't understand how McGengar works, do you? how about reading all the posts about what MGengar does? It brings a moveset tailored to beat anything its teammates need it to. Your team hate Skarmory? Bring Thunderbolt. Hate Ferrothorn? Focus Blast or HP Fire. And fyi, Perish Trap isn't even the best McGengar set at all.

Again, Wobby has to take damage to kill anything. Big Mac, with his beefy 170 SpA and his scrumptious 130 Speed, doesn't even need to take a hit to kill something weakened.


DANCE! DANCE FOR MY ENTERTAINMENT!

Hello? Reuniclus with RELIABLE recovery, good bulk, magic guard and calm mind can set up on almost anything a stall team has without fear. It doesn't need to trap something to make it useful. Instead of trapping the ferro, why not use it as set up fodder and sweep? Even phasers don't really work against reuniclus because it can just come back in without worrying about passive damage and set up again. The only point that matters is that there is NOTHING stall teams can do to reuniclus. While mega gengar, while it is great against stall, still has to worry about hazards, weather, and other chip damage

 

[Lord Disick]

But Mega Gengar can also fare very well against offensive teams as well as defensive teams. It's versatility is amazing, making it scarier.

But Mega Gengar absolutely destroys the playstyle. More often than not, stall teams are slow, and can't deal that much damage. Think of the nightmare that would ensue when you're trying to break Mega Gengar's sub while being trapped and being Perish Song'd.

But the point still stands that mega gengar WILL be worn down by all the passive damage until it can be taken out with a relatively weak move..like gyro ball from ferro. While reuniclus Cannot be touched by anything a stall team has.

 

[AOPSUser]

Hello? Reuniclus with RELIABLE recovery, good bulk, magic guard and calm mind can set up on almost anything a stall team has without fear. It doesn't need to trap something to make it useful. Instead of trapping the ferro, why not use it as set up fodder and sweep? Even phasers don't really work against reuniclus because it can just come back in without worrying about passive damage and set up again. The only point that matters is that there is NOTHING stall teams can do to reuniclus. While mega gengar, while it is great against stall, still has to worry about hazards, weather, and other chip damage

1. I switch out Ferro and bring in <insert powerful physical attacker with Crunch here>.
2. If I phase you, you have to take a hit switching back in and everything.
3. Stall teams can do quite a bit to Reuniclus. Most Stall teams carry at least one offensive mon (well, most good ones anyways), and a lot of them carry a Tyranitar, which shits on Reuniclus.

The fact that you are comparing it to Mega Gengar is funny.

But the point still stands that mega gengar WILL be worn down by all the passive damage until it can be taken out with a relatively weak move..like gyro ball from ferro. While reuniclus Cannot be touched by anything a stall team has.

Mega Gengar, if you play it well, will ONLY have to take damage from hazards and weather. You choose what you kill, so choose something you OHKO. Reuniclus must take a lot of hits to set up.

 

[Ajwf]

Meh. There are stall counters if you worry about it (more so clefable as an issue). Reun can be handled if you dedicate a counter to a class for "Magic guard boosters" as I did. Basically, you remove the ability via skill swap and then status is. If the boosts start getting scary, you can roar it out but just be mindful to skill swap it again later. Spiritomb works perfectly as a wall, as well (no skill swap, though). But mainly, you phase it or skill swap status it when given the chance. Most stall team ghosts can at least fight reun, too.

Gar, of course, can't have this strategy utilized as I can't get my swapper in to mess with his ability and he also could just as easily reset his ability, providing me the same issue.

 

[Skyblade12]

I specifically meant the taunt perish set, but i see your point. I simply am trying to get my point that gengar cant beat everything it needs to with one set. If youare facing hyper offense the best you can do with gengar is outspeed and destiny bound if you arent running the three attacks plus destiny bond set. The best you can do against blissey or ferrothorn with a 3 attacks set is pray you hit focus blast afew times in a row. Both of these playstyles could be potentially threatening to a pokemon you are trying to setup and if you were to use the perish set against hyper offense, you would likely have wasted a pokemon unless The opponent has scarf meinshao or something. If your opponent is running stall and you run three attacks, you have to whittle a bunch of the opponents walls down before gengar can be useful. Im not trying to say that genar isnt a fantastic situtional mon, but doesnt always take something down that threatens your team. It doesnt guarantee you the win and often becomes death fodder against certain playstyles. It is a fantastic mon no doubt, but I just don't see how its broken.


It was about taking out counters you want gone.

That is exactly what it does, as long as you properly customize it to handle whatever is threatening your team. Most good sweepers are rarely hard walled by more than one Pokémon on a team. And if it's your sweeper, you know in general what stops it. And you set up Mega-Gengar to stop it.
Also, Blissey is never, ever a threat to Mega Gengar. Mega Gengar can do whatever it wants to a Pokémon which can't hit it with any damaging moves (no Seismic Toss, no Toxic).

Firstly, please stop talking in caps and generally as if you're talking to a demented 5-year old. It may be that some of this topic has exasperated you, but please take into consideration not everyone has posted already. Don't assume everyone on the non-ban side is an idiot by default.

You are correct, I was rude and condescending. It wasn't actually the anti-ban argument that I was exasperated by, however, but rather the "lack of competition for Mega-Slot" argument.

To address your post, you obviously missed my point, which was merely that mega-evolutions are a brand-new aspect of a new generation and it would be a shame to get rid of it without further testing after less than two months, which is what is bound to happen to the most viable megas once the bandwagon starts rolling.

Define "viable" Megas. Mega Houndoom? Mega Manectric? Mega Banette? Mega Scizor? Mega Gardevoir?

Most of the Megas are viable, but few of them are actually broken. There is a huge discussion in the Scizor thread about whether or not to go Mega, given that you gain bulk, but no offensive presence, which shifts Scizor into a bulky offense at the expense of some of his crushing sweeping power. Mega Houndoom basically gets a Life Orb in Sunny Weather. Mega Gardevoir has one of the most underwhelming abilities ever.

None of these pose nearly the destabilizing threat to the metagame that they would need to be in order to get them banned. If Mega-Evolution is going to be gotten rid of in a few months, it's going to be because the community decided that most of them are simply not worth using.

I don't think it should be treated differently in the long run, but its an additional option that adds a new dimension to battles. Why not test it further?

Nothing is stopping Mega-Evolution from being tested further. We're just stopping Mega-Gengar from dominating the entire metagame.

Let's hope so, though it could just as well be that they'll just be replaced by mega-megawile and mega-scizor, who dominate from then on. Time will tell I guess.

Except that Mega-Mawile and Mega-Scizor are, according to the numbers and tests we've seen so far, not nearly as dominating as Mega-Kangaskhan, Mega-Lucario, or Mega-Gengar. We might see them as the only Megas in play, but that doesn't mean that they would be the top Pokémon in OU, just that they're the top Megas. If it turns out that there are only one or two actually OU viable Megas, I think we'll find that most teams are simply not going to run Megas. There are already going to be plenty of teams running Scizor without a Mega Stone. I doubt he'll be the only one.

 

[farranpoison]

But the point still stands that mega gengar WILL be worn down by all the passive damage until it can be taken out with a relatively weak move..like gyro ball from ferro. While reuniclus Cannot be touched by anything a stall team has.

Why is a MGengar switching around like a madman to get worn down by hazards? It only has to switch in once, and then bye bye wall of your choice.

You really don't know how MGengar works at all.

 

[False Sense]

But the point still stands that mega gengar WILL be worn down by all the passive damage until it can be taken out with a relatively weak move..like gyro ball from ferro. While reuniclus Cannot be touched by anything a stall team has.

Might I ask why you are comparing Reuniclus with Mega Gengar in the first place? The two have completely separate roles on teams, Reuniclus being a sweeper while Mega Gengar is a trapper. Comparing the two isn't really going to prove anything, I don't think.

And Mega Gengar really shouldn't have to switch in that much. All it needs is one opportunity to come in on a wall of its choice and proceed to eliminate it from the game. From there, whatever sweeper you're using should have a much easier time cleaning up the remains. You don't really need Mega Gengar once it's killed off what you needed it to.

Edit: farranpoison summed that up nicely.

 

[Magicfire]

Hello? Reuniclus with RELIABLE recovery, good bulk, magic guard and calm mind can set up on almost anything a stall team has without fear. It doesn't need to trap something to make it useful. Instead of trapping the ferro, why not use it as set up fodder and sweep? Even phasers don't really work against reuniclus because it can just come back in without worrying about passive damage and set up again. The only point that matters is that there is NOTHING stall teams can do to reuniclus. While mega gengar, while it is great against stall, still has to worry about hazards, weather, and other chip damage

1) You can't switch out of Mega Gengar.
2) Reuniclus is painfully slow, which means it will have to take a hit before it can land one. MEANWHILE, MGengar has 170 Base Special Attack and 130 Base Speed, which lets it outspeed almost everything and demolish it. You don't even need to keep switching in and switching out MGengar.
3) MGengar can do a lot more than beat a certain wall on a stall team. Also, Reuniclus is a sweeper while MGengar is not.

 

[Kriptini]

Can we get some Battle Videos posted in this thread? I myself will not be voting in this poll but I would like to see some Battle Videos from both sides of the argument. There has been a lot of theorycrafting going on and I would like to see how it translates to practical situations.

 

[Stone RG]

1.You can't counter MGengar, or any Shadow Tag user, due to not being able to switch. Shadow Taggers can only be CHECKED, as a Counter is something that can come in and force the Pokemon in question out, but good luck sending something in when Shadow Tags up.

2. Pursuit Hurts Mega Gengar, but there's about three notable Pursuiters at the moment, being Scizor and Tyranitar. Scizor is maimed by HP Fire unless it's running a unorthodox EV Spread while Focus Blast will hurt cause you know, 170 Sp. Atk + x4 Fighting Weakness, that's still gonna sting. Plus, if Gengar stays in, which if your Running a Destiny Bond Set Gengar has no quams about, Pursuit is a 40 BP move, really, Gengar just wants one thing. Kill Stuff to help his Buddies Kill stuff. Yes, you may have killed MGengar, but you lost your Scizor or Tyranitar in the process.

Also, while this is just me, regardless of whether you're for ban or against ban, try to keep your spelling at least decent. You make a much more compelling argument when your post dosen't look like jibberish.
Anyway, I feel that unless they're gonna be intelligent discussion, there's no point of this thread being alive, yes, Good Points were made, but those good points both against and for the Banning of Gengarite were made 10 Pages ago and now we're just repeating ourselfs and it really isn't getting anyone anywhere, so unless we can intelligently discuss why Gengarite should or should not be banned, I feel like this thread needs to have the plug pulled.

Thanks for summarizing everything, just wanted to add i havent seen a single solid anti-(quick)ban argument in the last 25 pages, which should be obvious given the fact that i "just" have to use Sp Def CB scizor to deal with Big Mac (cool nick btw) semi-effectively, then, after it has done the job which it will ALWAYS do in the hands of a semi-intelligent player, then cool balance you have there.

Anyways, please, let this die? I could bet something the Council couldnt give 2 fucks less about what was being discussed here after around page 20.

 

[Photofluid]

How can u say mega gengar should be banned because he can trap pokes with shadow tag stall with sub/protect when wobba is bulkier and can do the same thing and is BL2? Yes, gengar can deal out good damage with stab shadow ball and has a fast sub but that's ALL that set of mega gengar has going over something like wobba which does not make it ban worthy

I hope I could spam the face of every single idiot who think stalling is all about bulkiness

 

[Shroomisaur]

Thanks for summarizing everything, just wanted to add i havent seen a single solid anti-(quick)ban argument in the last 25 pages, which should be obvious given the fact that i "just" have to use Sp Def CB scizor to deal with Big Mac (cool nick btw) semi-effectively, then, after it has done the job which it will ALWAYS do in the hands of a semi-intelligent player, then cool balance you have there.

Anyways, please, let this die? I could bet something the Council couldnt give 2 fucks less about what was being discussed here after around page 20.

Yeah, I gave up posting in this thread days ago for that exact reason. Everything that's needed to be discussed has been said at this point.

However, while it might seem like the thread is going around in circles and the same bad anti-bad arguments keep appearing, I think it's interesting to look at the poll results. Yes, it's still leaning in anti-ban's favor. However, ~5 days ago the poll was 52.5% to 47.5%. The last ~500 votes have shifted the balanced to 50.4% to 49.6%. If you know anything about stats, that's a big difference considering how large the number of votes already was. It shows that lately, more have been pro-ban than against. I think it's safe to say that all of the solid pro-ban arguments in this thread have shifted recent voters' minds.

It's a nice thing to see, people reading the thread and actually acknowledging the persuasive arguments (even if it doesn't seem that way)!

 

[Ajwf]

Can we get some Battle Videos posted in this thread? I myself will not be voting in this poll but I would like to see some Battle Videos from both sides of the argument. There has been a lot of theorycrafting going on and I would like to see how it translates to practical situations.

I have one log at the bottom of my last long post. The videos are down as far as I know. I did get another one, but my battles are always about 100 turns (this one does weakly show off him eliminating a threat I couldn't get otherwise) but again this is just the log. More chats this time around...

Edit: Wanted to add that I think about turn 80 is an ideal spot for when I brought in mega gengar to finish off the fairy threat... I have since taken off sub to run sludge bomb. Also to note, if you do start reading from turn 80, gar did get one kill earlier on zapdos, would might've been killable by haxorus but was pressure stalling all of heatran's PP.

Setting for Haxorus sweep

AjTheEpic joined.

jeffrawr joined.

Format:
Pokebank OU (beta)

Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep

Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokemon

Moody Clause: Moody is banned

OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned

Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned

HP Percentage Mod: HP is reported as percentages

AjTheEpic's team: Gengar / Haxorus / Skarmory / Heatran / Florges / Rotom-Wash

jeffrawr's team: Rotom-Wash / Ferrothorn / Garchomp / Clefable / Zapdos / Yanmega

jeffrawr: i already lost

Nakkan joined.

Dread Arceus joined.

Battle between AjTheEpic and jeffrawr started!

Go! Skarmory!

jeffrawr sent out BREEEE (Zapdos)!

The opposing BREEEE is exerting its pressure!

Turn 1
tst_100 joined.

Emmy2 joined.

Scotti joined.

AjTheEpic: Just chatting with emmy, sorry for the delay

jeffrawr: yeah no problem

Clamperl is Jesus joined.

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

The opposing BREEEE used Thunderbolt!

Rotom-Wash lost 42.8% of its health!

Turn 2
sugarhigh joined.

The opposing BREEEE used Thunderbolt!

Rotom-Wash lost 36.2% of its health!

Rotom-Wash used Will-O-Wisp!

The opposing BREEEE was burned!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 3
ToboeAka joined.

tst_100 left.

Rotom-Wash, come back!

Go! Florges!

The opposing BREEEE used Thunderbolt!

A critical hit! Florges lost 40.3% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 4
rian888 joined.

jeffrawr withdrew BREEEE (Zapdos)!

jeffrawr sent out Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

Florges used Wish!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 5
Florges, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Prickles used Power Whip!

It's not very effective... Heatran lost 7.3% of its health!

Florges's wish came true!

Turn 6
jeffrawr withdrew Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

jeffrawr sent out Suds (Rotom-Wash)!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

It's not very effective... The opposing Suds lost 16% of its health!

The opposing Suds was burned!

The opposing Suds restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Suds was hurt by its burn!

Turn 7
AjTheEpic: So, I think I got what I need to do to win

jeffrawr: yeah

biddy joined.

Emmy2: :o

jeffrawr: you have like everything that walls me already

AjTheEpic: Two pokemon to scout and if all goes well, I've got this

Heatran, come back!

Go! Florges!

The opposing Suds used Hydro Pump!

Florges lost 28.6% of its health!

The opposing Suds restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Suds was hurt by its burn!

Turn 8
Emmy2: yeah but you have a yanmega

Avarice87 joined.

The opposing Suds used Will-O-Wisp!

Florges was burned!

Florges used Wish!

The opposing Suds restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Suds was hurt by its burn!

Florges was hurt by its burn!

Turn 9
jeffrawr: doesnt help against florges or heatran

The opposing Suds used Hex!

Florges lost 23.3% of its health!

Florges used Aromatherapy!

A soothing aroma wafted through the area!

Florges's wish came true!

The opposing Suds restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Suds was hurt by its burn!

Turn 10
AjTheEpic: Yanmega doesn't stop my sweeper

AjTheEpic: Hex... what?

jeffrawr: lol

The opposing Suds used Volt Switch!

Florges lost 20.8% of its health!

The opposing Suds went back to jeffrawr!

jeffrawr sent out Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

Florges used Wish!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 11
Emmy2: yanmega is amazing

AjTheEpic: Alright, I'll definitely think to avoid that

Florges, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

The opposing Prickles used Leech Seed!

Skarmory avoided the attack!

Turn 12
Avarice87: Yanmega is pretty damn good yeah.

Skarmory used Stealth Rock!

Pointed stones float in the air around the opposing team!

The opposing Prickles used Leech Seed!

Skarmory was seeded!

Skarmory's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 13
jeffrawr: ;_;

Emmy2: though seemed to be better last gen due to less special walls

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Prickles used Stealth Rock!

Pointed stones float in the air around your team!

Turn 14
jeffrawr withdrew Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

jeffrawr sent out BabyFace (Clefable)!

Heatran used Roar!

Cheese Its (Garchomp) was dragged out!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Cheese Its!

Turn 15
jeffrawr withdrew Cheese Its (Garchomp)!

jeffrawr sent out BabyFace (Clefable)!

Heatran, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

Pointed stones dug into Rotom-Wash!

Turn 16
Rotom-Wash used Rest!

Rotom-Wash fell asleep!

Rotom-Wash slept and became healthy!

Rotom-Wash ate its Chesto Berry!

Rotom-Wash woke up!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

Turn 17
Avarice87: That's why I run Specs Heatran

Avarice87: I love my Specs Heatran.

AjTheEpic: Hmm, I think my issue with proving anything

AjTheEpic: Is I develop so slowly

Rotom-Wash, come back!

Go! Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into Heatran!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 18
Emmy2: don't you play stall a lot though?

The opposing BabyFace used Moonblast!

It's not very effective... Heatran lost 5.7% of its health!

Heatran used Roar!

Suds (Rotom-Wash) was dragged out!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Suds!

The opposing Suds restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Suds was hurt by its burn!

Turn 19
Emmy2: that could have reason to do with it

AjTheEpic: I play a ton of stall

Heatran, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

Pointed stones dug into Rotom-Wash!

The opposing Suds used Hydro Pump!

It's not very effective... Rotom-Wash lost 25.7% of its health!

The opposing Suds restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Suds was hurt by its burn!

Turn 20
jeffrawr: stall is the way to go

jeffrawr: im gonna move this team around to try out a heatran

The opposing Suds used Volt Switch!

Rotom-Wash lost 34.5% of its health!

The opposing Suds went back to jeffrawr!

jeffrawr sent out BabyFace (Clefable)!

Rotom-Wash used Volt Switch!

The opposing BabyFace lost 18% of its health!

Rotom-Wash went back to AjTheEpic!

Go! Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into Heatran!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 21
Heatran used Flash Cannon!

It's super effective! The opposing BabyFace lost 49% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace used Moonblast!

It's not very effective... Heatran lost 5.7% of its health!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 22
AjTheEpic: Meh, baby face.... I just switched gengar to run sludge bomb for it now

jeffrawr: haha

jeffrawr: it wasnt before?

Nakkan left.

jeffrawr withdrew BabyFace (Clefable)!

jeffrawr sent out Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Prickles!

Heatran used Flash Cannon!

It's not very effective... The opposing Prickles lost 12% of its health!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 23
AjTheEpic: No, but you'll have to learn my set

jeffrawr: true

jeffrawr withdrew Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

jeffrawr sent out BREEEE (Zapdos)!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing BREEEE!

The opposing BREEEE is exerting its pressure!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

The opposing BREEEE lost 32% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 24
The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

Heatran used Ancient Power!

The opposing BREEEE lost 16% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 25
AjTheEpic: Full assault heatran!

jeffrawr: interesting

The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

The opposing BREEEE lost 29.0% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 26
The opposing BREEEE used Thunderbolt!

Heatran lost 28.1% of its health!

Heatran used Ancient Power!

It's super effective! The opposing BREEEE lost 32% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 27
The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

The opposing BREEEE lost 32% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 28
AjTheEpic: Hmm

AjTheEpic: I could just beat this with hax...

AjTheEpic: But I think I need a better switch

The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

The opposing BREEEE lost 31% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 29
AjTheEpic: I'm also guessing you're running a defog zap

The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

Heatran used Roar!

Cheese Its (Garchomp) was dragged out!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Cheese Its!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 30
AjTheEpic: Which is going to die anyways

Heatran, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

Pointed stones dug into Skarmory!

The opposing Cheese Its used Earthquake!

It doesn't affect Skarmory...

Turn 31
jeffrawr: idk why i tried that

jeffrawr withdrew Cheese Its (Garchomp)!

jeffrawr sent out Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Prickles!

Skarmory used Defog!

The opposing Prickles's evasiveness fell!

The pointed stones disappeared from around the opposing team!

The pointed stones disappeared from around your team!

Turn 32
AjTheEpic: Hmm...

AjTheEpic: You didn't lead with that set, and you have no leftovers

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Prickles used Leech Seed!

Heatran was seeded!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 33
Heatran, come back!

Go! Rotom-Wash!

The opposing Prickles used Protect!

But it failed!

Turn 34
Clamperl is Jesus left.

Rotom-Wash used Rest!

Rotom-Wash fell asleep!

Rotom-Wash slept and became healthy!

The opposing Prickles used Leech Seed!

Rotom-Wash was seeded!

Rotom-Wash's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 35
Clamperl is Jesus joined.

Avarice87: I use Banded Ferrothorn on my Mono Grass Team.

Rotom-Wash, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Prickles used Power Whip!

It's not very effective... Heatran lost 7.5% of its health!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 36
jeffrawr withdrew Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

jeffrawr sent out Cheese Its (Garchomp)!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

It's not very effective... The opposing Cheese Its lost 18% of its health!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 37
jeffrawr withdrew Cheese Its (Garchomp)!

jeffrawr sent out BREEEE (Zapdos)!

The opposing BREEEE is exerting its pressure!

Heatran, come back!

Go! Florges!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 38
The opposing BREEEE used Thunderbolt!

Florges lost 24.4% of its health!

Florges used Wish!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 39
AjTheEpic: I wonder if one of gar's faults is he is best used on a revenge kill

Avarice87: Hmm

The opposing BREEEE used Thunderbolt!

A critical hit! Florges lost 36.9% of its health!

Florges used Aromatherapy!

A soothing aroma wafted through the area!

Florges's wish came true!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 40
Emmy2: well that's one of them

Avarice87: I'm curious as to your Haxorus set, AJ.

AjTheEpic: It can seem rather inconvienient

The opposing BREEEE used Thunderbolt!

Florges lost 22.8% of its health!

Florges used Wish!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 41
AjTheEpic: Hax is my sweeper

AjTheEpic: He'll do just fine after I remove two pokes

Florges, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

Florges's wish came true!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 42
jeffrawr: gengar or garchomp?

The opposing BREEEE used Thunderbolt!

Heatran lost 28.3% of its health!

Heatran is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

Heatran used Ancient Power!

It's super effective! The opposing BREEEE lost 32% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 43
AjTheEpic: Well, gar will be removing a few... I'm not sure if I can remove chomp with gar yet

The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

The opposing BREEEE lost 28.0% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 44
Nice hax joined.

The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

Heatran used Ancient Power!

The opposing BREEEE lost 14.0% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 45
AjTheEpic: Looking for dat AP boost

The opposing BREEEE used Thunderbolt!

Heatran lost 25.7% of its health!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

The opposing BREEEE lost 33% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 46
jeffrawr: lol i cant tell

AjTheEpic: It was pressure, though

jeffrawr: can***

AjTheEpic: Should've thought of that

The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

Heatran used Roar!

BabyFace (Clefable) was dragged out!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 47
The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

Heatran used Flash Cannon!

It's super effective! The opposing BabyFace lost 36% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 48
The opposing BabyFace used Soft-Boiled!

The opposing BabyFace regained health!

Heatran used Roar!

Buzzlybee (Yanmega) was dragged out!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 49
AjTheEpic: Bah, why do you have so many special attackers?

AjTheEpic: This is annoying...

jeffrawr: Hell if I know

jeffrawr withdrew Buzzlybee (Yanmega)!

jeffrawr sent out BabyFace (Clefable)!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

The opposing BabyFace lost 25% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 50
Heatran, come back!

Go! Gengar!

The opposing BabyFace used Soft-Boiled!

The opposing BabyFace regained health!

Turn 51
Gengar used Substitute!

Gengar put in a substitute!

Gengar lost 24.8% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

Turn 52
Gengar has Mega Evolved into Mega Gengar!

Gengar used Thunderbolt!

The opposing BabyFace lost 19% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 53
Gengar, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 54
AjTheEpic: See, I really need sludge bomb

The opposing BabyFace used Stored Power!

It's not very effective... Heatran lost 11.9% of its health!

Heatran used Roar!

Suds (Rotom-Wash) was dragged out!

The opposing Suds restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Suds was hurt by its burn!

Turn 55
AjTheEpic: Because fuck this clefable... Everyone runs it now

rian888: stored power is gonna hurt a little

AjTheEpic: I personally blame Dread

Heatran, come back!

Go! Florges!

The opposing Suds used Volt Switch!

Florges lost 18.9% of its health!

The opposing Suds went back to jeffrawr!

jeffrawr sent out Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 56
jeffrawr: lol

jeffrawr: I hate this Clefable

Florges used Wish!

The opposing Prickles used Leech Seed!

Florges was seeded!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 57
jeffrawr: I'd much prefer support, but it also counters itself into a PP stall

AjTheEpic: Be gone, parahax!

jeffrawr: which leads to hilarity

Florges used Aromatherapy!

A soothing aroma wafted through the area!

The opposing Prickles used Stealth Rock!

Pointed stones float in the air around your team!

Florges's wish came true!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 58
Avarice87: PP Stall is funny.

AjTheEpic: I think the hardest thing about your team is it doesn't have any threat I really cared to counter with gengar

Florges, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

Pointed stones dug into Skarmory!

The opposing Prickles used Leech Seed!

Skarmory was seeded!

Skarmory's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 59
Emmy2: what kinds of threats are those?

Skarmory used Roost!

Skarmory regained health!

The opposing Prickles used Leech Seed!

Skarmory avoided the attack!

Skarmory's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 60
AjTheEpic: Dragon, skarm, glisc

Skarmory used Defog!

The opposing Prickles's evasiveness fell!

The pointed stones disappeared from around your team!

The opposing Prickles used Stealth Rock!

Pointed stones float in the air around your team!

Skarmory's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 61
sugarhigh left.

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Heatran!

Pointed stones dug into Heatran!

The opposing Prickles used Stealth Rock!

But it failed!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 62
AjTheEpic: I'm fairly certain I should be impressed by that prediction, but then I realized you're just aiming to stall defog

jeffrawr withdrew Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

jeffrawr sent out BREEEE (Zapdos)!

The opposing BREEEE is exerting its pressure!

Heatran used Roar!

BabyFace (Clefable) was dragged out!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 63
jeffrawr: lmao

Heatran used Flash Cannon!

It's super effective! The opposing BabyFace lost 48% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace used Moonblast!

It's not very effective... Heatran lost 5.5% of its health!

Heatran's Special Attack fell!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 64
Heatran, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

Pointed stones dug into Skarmory!

The opposing BabyFace used Soft-Boiled!

The opposing BabyFace regained health!

Turn 65
jeffrawr: i ALMOST clicked leech seed b/c u were either gonna defog again or switch into hetran

Skarmory used Defog!

The opposing BabyFace's evasiveness fell!

The pointed stones disappeared from around your team!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

Turn 66
Skarmory used Stealth Rock!

Pointed stones float in the air around the opposing team!

The opposing BabyFace used Moonblast!

A critical hit! It's not very effective... Skarmory lost 34.4% of its health!

Turn 67
AjTheEpic: I mean, clefable doesn't worry me.

Skarmory used Roost!

Skarmory regained health!

The opposing BabyFace used Moonblast!

It's not very effective... Skarmory lost 20.4% of its health!

Turn 68
jeffrawr: I can tell

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Heatran!

jeffrawr withdrew BabyFace (Clefable)!

jeffrawr sent out Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Prickles!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 69
AjTheEpic: And when I get sludge bomb, I can better end that thing

jeffrawr: That you can

Heatran, come back!

Go! Gengar!

jeffrawr withdrew Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

jeffrawr sent out BREEEE (Zapdos)!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing BREEEE!

The opposing BREEEE is exerting its pressure!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 70
Scotti: wow this is still going

Gengar used Hidden Power!

It's super effective! The opposing BREEEE lost 47% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 71
AjTheEpic: Damn, so close

Avarice87: Hey scotti

Scotti: people need to start running stall breakers on ther stall team like aj

Avarice87: *Scotti

Emmy2: yeah, i'm surprised to not even see a kill yet

Avarice87: That lag though

PizzaPineapple joined.

Gengar used Hidden Power!

It's super effective! The opposing BREEEE lost 44% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE used Roost!

The opposing BREEEE regained health!

The opposing BREEEE restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BREEEE was hurt by its burn!

Turn 72
cantoforce joined.

Scotti: hello

rian888: shadow ball hits just as hard as se hidden power

AjTheEpic: Meh, I don't run that

rian888: no stab on megagar?

Gengar used Hidden Power!

A critical hit! It's super effective! The opposing BREEEE lost 56.0% of its health!

The opposing BREEEE fainted!

jeffrawr: there it is

jeffrawr sent out BabyFace (Clefable)!

Turn 73
AjTheEpic: I decided to design this counter to all of haxorus' checks

AjTheEpic: And there goes one

Gengar, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

Turn 74
jeffrawr: thats the game tbh

AjTheEpic: Currently, Until my SB gar gets going next game, heatran is a fairy counter

The opposing BabyFace used Moonblast!

It's not very effective... Heatran lost 5.5% of its health!

Heatran used Roar!

Cheese Its (Garchomp) was dragged out!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Cheese Its!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 75
AjTheEpic: Probs not, I still need to corner scarf chomp and ferro

Nice hax left.

Heatran, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

The opposing Cheese Its used Stone Edge!

Skarmory avoided the attack!

Turn 76
jeffrawr withdrew Cheese Its (Garchomp)!

jeffrawr sent out Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Prickles!

Skarmory used Roost!

Skarmory regained health!

Turn 77
PizzaPineapple left.

AjTheEpic: Scarf chomp is a good idea, it does stop gar from trap killing you

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing Prickles used Leech Seed!

Heatran was seeded!

Heatran's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 78
jeffrawr: Yep

AjTheEpic: And makes me have to get two dd up on hax

The opposing Prickles used Protect!

The opposing Prickles protected itself!

Heatran used Flash Cannon!

The opposing Prickles protected itself!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 79
jeffrawr: but as long as rotom-w or florges are alive, chomp is useless

AjTheEpic: This is true

jeffrawr withdrew Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

jeffrawr sent out Buzzlybee (Yanmega)!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Buzzlybee!

Heatran used Lava Plume!

It's super effective! The opposing Buzzlybee lost 51% of its health!

The opposing Buzzlybee fainted!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

AjTheEpic: But I want to sweep

jeffrawr sent out BabyFace (Clefable)!

Turn 80
rian888: huh?

rian888: why yanmega?

jeffrawr: yanmega was useless this game too

jeffrawr: b/c it can literally do nothing this game

rian888: tinted lens or speed boost?

AjTheEpic: Maybe I should just pretend gengar clears for heatran?

Riptide1slash2 joined.

cantoforce left.

jeffrawr: except for bug buzz through his gengars sub if that ever happened

jeffrawr: speed boost

jeffrawr: tinted lens would be prefered in a match like this, though

Heatran used Flash Cannon!

It's super effective! The opposing BabyFace lost 47% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace used Soft-Boiled!

The opposing BabyFace regained health!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 81
Riptide1slash2 left.

Heatran, come back!

Go! Skarmory!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

Turn 82
jeffrawr: but thats the thing w/ this meta game, youre not gonna come up w/ a perfect counter for every situation

jeffrawr: altho counter isnt the best word in context

AjTheEpic: Yeah, clefable is too annoying not to run stab sludge

Skarmory, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 83
jeffrawr: mhmm

The opposing BabyFace used Moonblast!

It's not very effective... Heatran lost 5.2% of its health!

Heatran used Roar!

Prickles (Ferrothorn) was dragged out!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Prickles!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 84
AjTheEpic: But completely worthless to this team, even then

The opposing Prickles used Leech Seed!

Heatran was seeded!

Heatran used Roar!

Suds (Rotom-Wash) was dragged out!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Suds!

The opposing Suds restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

Heatran's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

The opposing Suds was hurt by its burn!

Turn 85
Heatran, come back!

Go! Florges!

The opposing Suds used Hydro Pump!

Florges avoided the attack!

The opposing Suds restored HP using its Leftovers!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing Suds was hurt by its burn!

Turn 86
rian888: why not lava plume?

jeffrawr: yea, clefable helped my team more when i used it for support

AjTheEpic: I predicted protect

AjTheEpic: And I'm rather low on lava plume

Ayush joined.

The opposing Suds used Volt Switch!

Florges lost 20.8% of its health!

rian888: oh okay

Ayush: .-.

The opposing Suds went back to jeffrawr!

jeffrawr sent out BabyFace (Clefable)!

Florges used Psychic!

The opposing BabyFace lost 16% of its health!

Florges restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 87
Florges, come back!

Go! Heatran!

The opposing BabyFace used Moonblast!

It's not very effective... Heatran lost 5.7% of its health!

Heatran's Special Attack fell!

Heatran restored HP using its Leftovers!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 88
rian888: you still have like 12 more I think

vaibzzz123 joined.

AjTheEpic: No, I was using it on pressure zap

AjTheEpic: I'm closer to 6?

Heatran, come back!

Go! Gengar!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 89
Gengar used Substitute!

Gengar put in a substitute!

Gengar lost 24.8% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

Turn 90
rian888: didn't notice pressure sorry

Gengar used Thunderbolt!

The opposing BabyFace lost 13% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 91
Gengar used Thunderbolt!

The opposing BabyFace lost 12% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 92
Emmy2: no perish song?

Gengar used Thunderbolt!

The opposing BabyFace lost 10% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 93
AjTheEpic: No

AjTheEpic: This is a much more offensive gengar

Dread Arceus: Are you just trying to prove MegaGar's broken?

AjTheEpic: I need a para

Gengar used Thunderbolt!

The opposing BabyFace lost 7.0% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace used Cosmic Power!

The opposing BabyFace's Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace's Special Defense rose!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 94
AjTheEpic: Badly

Avarice87: XD

vaibzzz123: inb4 baton pass

jeffrawr: why would i baton pass

rian888: gengar's hardwalled by clefable...

Gengar used Thunderbolt!

The opposing BabyFace lost 8% of its health!

The opposing BabyFace is paralyzed! It may be unable to move!

The opposing BabyFace used Stored Power!

It's super effective! Gengar's substitute faded!

The opposing BabyFace restored HP using its Leftovers!

Turn 95
AjTheEpic: Can that thing use baton pass?

jeffrawr: probably

Dread Arceus: Probably

Avarice87: No.

Gengar used Destiny Bond!

Gengar is trying to take its foe down with it!

The opposing BabyFace used Stored Power!

It's super effective! Gengar lost 50.4% of its health!

Gengar fainted!

Gengar took its attacker down with it!

The opposing BabyFace fainted!

rian888: no bp as far as I know

jeffrawr: gengar isnt walled by clefable if gengar knows sludge bomb/wave tbh

Avarice87: It can't.

jeffrawr: it fucks it up

jeffrawr: ah

AjTheEpic: Got it

Emmy2: well that works too

jeffrawr: i thought you would do that

Go! Haxorus!

jeffrawr sent out Prickles (Ferrothorn)!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Prickles!

Haxorus breaks the mold!

Turn 96
AjTheEpic: That's why I subbed, I needed to know when you'd start attacking other than guess work

Haxorus used Dragon Dance!

Haxorus's Attack rose!

Haxorus's Speed rose!

The opposing Prickles used Leech Seed!

Haxorus was seeded!

Haxorus's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 97
jeffrawr: yea i understand

Haxorus used Dragon Dance!

Haxorus's Attack rose!

Haxorus's Speed rose!

The opposing Prickles used Power Whip!

Haxorus avoided the attack!

Haxorus restored HP using its Leftovers!

Haxorus's health is sapped by Leech Seed!

Turn 98
jeffrawr: unfortunate

Haxorus used Superpower!

It's super effective! The opposing Prickles lost 100% of its health!

Haxorus is hurt by the opposing Prickles's Iron Barbs!

Haxorus is hurt by the opposing Prickles's Rocky Helmet!

Haxorus's Attack fell!

Haxorus's Defense fell!

The opposing Prickles fainted!

Haxorus restored HP using its Leftovers!

jeffrawr sent out Cheese Its (Garchomp)!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Cheese Its!

Turn 99
jeffrawr: gg

Haxorus used Outrage!

It's super effective! The opposing Cheese Its lost 56.0% of its health!

Haxorus is hurt by the opposing Cheese Its's Rough Skin!

The opposing Cheese Its fainted!

Haxorus restored HP using its Leftovers!

Ayush: That's gg

vaibzzz123: lol

AjTheEpic: gg

rian888: gg

vaibzzz123: wow

jeffrawr: that ferro is pretty much for mega pinsir and kanga

jeffrawr sent out Suds (Rotom-Wash)!

Pointed stones dug into the opposing Suds!

Turn 100
AjTheEpic: I kind of showed off what it could do, by dropping the most threatening thing to hax once it goes beast mode

Haxorus used Outrage!

The opposing Suds lost 6% of its health!

The opposing Suds fainted!

AjTheEpic won the battle!

 

[FlameUser64]

I've only read up to page 21, but I'd just like to point out that I'm pretty sure dedicated scout mons have always been a thing, even before Mega Gengar existed. I'll use Chesnaught as an example, because I happen to like Chesnaught, but really all your scout needs is Protect/Detect/Spiky Shield, Roar/Whirlwind, and resistance/immunity to most of MGengar's preferred offensive options along with enough bulk to take one it wasn't quite expecting (Chesnaught doesn't really fit that last criteria, but hear me out).

So, hypothetically, you see your opponent's team in the Team Preview and they have exactly 1 Pokémon that can Mega Evolve: Gengar. Okay, now you know they're running MGengar, because how many people are going to bring a team without a Mega Evo on it? (Even if they have more than one, if the other potential MEvo is something like Scizor, you can most likely bet on Gengar being the Mega. On the flipside, if the other potential MEvo is something like Mawile, Kangaskhan, Houndoom, Pinsir, etc., you can bet that it's the Mega.) From there, take a look at the rest of the team. They're going to have a (usually offensive) core that's thoroughly walled by something, or they wouldn't be running MGengar. If you've been around the metagame for a good while (I haven't), you'll have a good idea of roughly what that wall is, especially since "high-end" OU players tend to use the same list of recycled OU Pokémon. That's why it's OU tier, after all. There's scouting phase 1 complete, based entirely on Team Preview analysis along with whatever minor hints you can get from seeing their other Pokémons' movesets during the battle.

Phase 2 begins when Gengar first switches in. It's almost certainly going to Mega Evolve immediately if it's being used as a sniper. Switch in your nice, scouting Bulletproof Chesnaught (Spiky Shield, Roar, Spikes/Synthesis, Seed Bomb/Hammer Arm/Shadow Claw/Dragon Claw) @Leftovers/Focus Sash on the turn it Mega Evolves. There, you've now seen one of its moves. Based on what you see there (Substitute? Protect? Shadow Ball? Sludge Wave? Thunderbolt? Energy Ball? Perish Song?), decide:
— whether to risk using Spiky Shield to try and scout another move;
— if you've seen enough to <know that it's a hazard to Chesnaught>/<think it may switch out at this point but aren't convinced> and Roar it, or its switch-in, out; or
— if you are certain it's going to switch out and want to lay down Spikes/restore with Synthesis if it used a damaging move on its MEvo turn.

If you managed to successfully scout with Spiky Shield the previous turn, now would be a great time to Roar.

The only thing that gives this setup in general (obviously Chesnaught in particular gets owned if Gengar turns out to be running Dazzling Gleam or Sludge Wave and uses it first turn) a really hard time is if Gengar goes for Taunt on the turn it Mega Evolves, as then you lose your ability to Roar it out.

The reason for my bringing up the obvious scout/phazer is that people seem to assume it's impossible to scout Mega Gengar's set. Hint: It's not, nor are scout/phazers unheard of or even particularly rare in the past.

 

[myw]

I finally figured out what was bothering me about people Saying "oh the anti ban people don't have any good points outside of some situational counter or something situational X or Y".

The same can be said of any great Pokemon, in theory.

Mega Gengar has too many sets to counter it?

Most of the great Pokemon don't have absolute counters either, hence why they are great. Ex:Dragonite's 50 sets

Mega Gengar absolutely gets a kill when it forces someone to switch out?
Nearly every Pokemon can do something amazing with onefree turn.

And so on.

These don't sound like points why Megengar is broken, just why its really good. These aren't arguments, though.

Stating a set is like saying scarfchomp is good. No shit, but that's not a breaking factor, its just options. And if we banned stuff for having too many options then what is Dragonite still in for?

The only point that seems absolutely valid is the "eliminate wall of my choosing" factor.

Not saying it isn't broken. Just that a lot of people seem to assume that the pro_ban side is fiiiilllled with such great arguments when really I'd say there were just two-choosing walls to kill and overcentralization.
And even then, I'd say its definitely not ban worthy for over centralizing because if that were the case, Talonflame would be gone.

 

[SuperScooter]

a lot of the people arguing for ban in this thread are so condescending it makes me sick to my stomach, get a grip guys

I don't know what to make of Mega Gengar because I have yet to have any trouble with it, but at the same time, I'm not sure I've ever played somebody who is using it in an ideal way. I find it so easy to predict when it will switch in and just double switch to Scizor or Prankster T-Wave or Blissey (for ones without sub) or a powerful scarfer like latios or terrakion or just use an unexpected neutral attack on the switch in, even if i have to sacrifice one, I usually get to pick exactly who I want. all this is assuming he's already mega-evolved

Mega Gengar, when switched in properly, is pretty much guaranteed 1 kill, which is tough, but I'm not really sure that's worth a quickban. There are a lot of pokemon that also guarantee a kill with a perfect switch-in.

In my opinion, Mega Gengar doesn't have enough dmg to be used as a threatening attacker, I usually just let it 2ko me as I hit with neutral attacks that come close to killing it.

Now on the other side of the debate, even though it hasn't been threatening to me so far, I think the better sets with taunt or perish song and sub, which seem to wreck walls, will become more common and people will learn to use it more safely. The arguments in this thread have been decently convincing to me that the wall breaker sets are too powerful, especially since I favor defensive styles.

I still think its worth a suspect test to make sure that the immense wall-breaking power is not easily dealt with by the new metagame, and I think we have decent reason to believe that most teams will have a scarfer that can OHKO to double switch with or to have 5/6 or even 6/6 pokemon on your team have neutral attacks that 2hko and just spam them whenever you expect Mega Gengar.

I can understand though, for those of you that play at a higher ladder ranking than I do, that we may be already be at the stage where everybody is using Mega Gengar at full capacity and there's just no stopping it, I dont know.

No vote because I don't have enough experience

 

[Pidgey Airlines]

1.) M. Gengar uses Levitate.
2.) The meta evolves much less around hazards than last gen. M.G has problems to reliably kill enemies with 1 blow
3.) M.G takes a turn to evolve and make use of Shadow Tag combined with 1.) it's easy to force him out and set up (non song set)
4.) Shadow Tag is less powerfull than last gen.
5.) In order to use song, he actually has to survive a blow.


I get why he is considered frightening, then however I also see what he looses by mega-evolving.


In my opinion a ban would be ahead of time.
Let's talk about it in a month or two.

 

[Ninja-persian]

I have been playing Pokemon in Smogon for around three years now, and my first opinion about this thread was not to ban MGengar. This point of view came from someone who primarily plays ladder matches, which also means playing against a wide array of skill levels, and thus- as has been said by many here- I had the perspective that MGengar was not a threat as I had never had any problems with it.

However, I now believe that Gengarite should be banned. The role of this Community to provide and organise a competitive Pokemon Battling environment, and in my opinion that is to always have tournaments and recognised Pokemon events. IMO, this is the the anti-ban argument's "Achilles heel". Many of these tournaments comprises of one or two battles where skill plays a big part- not only when battling but also when Team Building-. I feel that Shadow Tag MGengar dilutes the necessity of having skill in these kind of matches, as it restricts the possibilities of the opponent to fully encompass and utilise all the skill, tactics and hard work for devising a given Team, whilst the MGengar user can Trap and kill most opposing Pokemon. Therefore, there should not be any suspect process and Gengarite should be banned now as it is not a question of "what counter or checks it", but a matter of going against the philosophy of competitive Pokemon battling: that the person with better skill and team wins.

PS: sorry if this argument has been posted before, but I really felt about exposing my thoughts :)

 

[RowDog]

Ninja-persian it does require a lot of skill in order to use M-Gengar in the first place, I would think. You have to be able to play him well or it won't end well for you. In order to get the best out of M-Gar you have to use more planning than most other pokes. I wouldn't say that he takes the skill out of the game is a factor at all.

 

[Ninja-persian]

Ninja-persian it does require a lot of skill in order to use M-Gengar in the first place, I would think. You have to be able to play him well or it won't end well for you. In order to get the best out of M-Gar you have to use more planning than most other pokes. I wouldn't say that he takes the skill out of the game is a factor at all.

How do you need skill to Perish-Trap an opponent? What I am trying to say that it take skills off from games, is that Worse players are brought to a levelled field against more skilled players due to the possibilities available with Shadow Tag, namely Perish-Trap.

 

[dende5416]

I've only read up to page 21, but I'd just like to point out that I'm pretty sure dedicated scout mons have always been a thing, even before Mega Gengar existed. I'll use Chesnaught as an example, because I happen to like Chesnaught, but really all your scout needs is Protect/Detect/Spiky Shield, Roar/Whirlwind, and resistance/immunity to most of MGengar's preferred offensive options along with enough bulk to take one it wasn't quite expecting (Chesnaught doesn't really fit that last criteria, but hear me out).

So, hypothetically, you see your opponent's team in the Team Preview and they have exactly 1 Pokémon that can Mega Evolve: Gengar. Okay, now you know they're running MGengar, because how many people are going to bring a team without a Mega Evo on it? (Even if they have more than one, if the other potential MEvo is something like Scizor, you can most likely bet on Gengar being the Mega. On the flipside, if the other potential MEvo is something like Mawile, Kangaskhan, Houndoom, Pinsir, etc., you can bet that it's the Mega.) From there, take a look at the rest of the team. They're going to have a (usually offensive) core that's thoroughly walled by something, or they wouldn't be running MGengar. If you've been around the metagame for a good while (I haven't), you'll have a good idea of roughly what that wall is, especially since "high-end" OU players tend to use the same list of recycled OU Pokémon. That's why it's OU tier, after all. There's scouting phase 1 complete, based entirely on Team Preview analysis along with whatever minor hints you can get from seeing their other Pokémons' movesets during the battle.

Phase 2 begins when Gengar first switches in. It's almost certainly going to Mega Evolve immediately if it's being used as a sniper. Switch in your nice, scouting Bulletproof Chesnaught (Spiky Shield, Roar, Spikes/Synthesis, Seed Bomb/Hammer Arm/Shadow Claw/Dragon Claw) @Leftovers/Focus Sash on the turn it Mega Evolves. There, you've now seen one of its moves. Based on what you see there (Substitute? Protect? Shadow Ball? Sludge Wave? Thunderbolt? Energy Ball? Perish Song?), decide:
— whether to risk using Spiky Shield to try and scout another move;
— if you've seen enough to <know that it's a hazard to Chesnaught>/<think it may switch out at this point but aren't convinced> and Roar it, or its switch-in, out; or
— if you are certain it's going to switch out and want to lay down Spikes/restore with Synthesis if it used a damaging move on its MEvo turn.

If you managed to successfully scout with Spiky Shield the previous turn, now would be a great time to Roar.

The only thing that gives this setup in general (obviously Chesnaught in particular gets owned if Gengar turns out to be running Dazzling Gleam or Sludge Wave and uses it first turn) a really hard time is if Gengar goes for Taunt on the turn it Mega Evolves, as then you lose your ability to Roar it out.

The reason for my bringing up the obvious scout/phazer is that people seem to assume it's impossible to scout Mega Gengar's set. Hint: It's not, nor are scout/phazers unheard of or even particularly rare in the past.

Instead of a long conversation, I will use a very short summary: doing what you just said, MGengar is already evolved. Opponent brings out fire type, you retreat Chestnuaght, Gengar comes in, kills challenger because he can't escape now, Chestnaught comes back in, Mgengar is already being pulled out for the fire type you wished to kill. You can't use phazing to protect your team from MGengar unless EVERY MEMEBER OF YOUR TEAM has it. Trying to argue that one phaser on your team protects it from MGengar is absurd because as soon as the phazer is forced out, Gengar can step in, trap and kill whatever it wants.

 

[Loudo]

I hope this isn't OT, but I do have a question about the premises of this topic. Shouldn't we talking about banning Gengar instead of banning Gengarite?

Isn't part of Smogon's philosophy keeping bans simple, and banning Pokémon instead of abilities/moves/items unless the thing that makes a Pokémon broken is so widespread (like Swift Swim or evasion moves) that banning tons of Pokémon just to get rid of that factor would be impractical?

For example, in the past Latios and Latias were broken just because of Soul Dew. And yet they were banned to Ubers, not Soul Dew. And when Marowak was still a thing, it wasn't assigned two different tiers, one with and one without Thick Club banned.
I don't really see how the case in question is different. Are we really going to give each Mega Evolutions a different tier than their base form?



More on topic, I think that Shadow Tag is really broken when you can use those turns in which your opponent is trapped to set up something. Anything. Otherwise, you're just using it to revenge kill things, which can be done by a lot of other Pokémon.
But the most Gengar is setting up is a Substitute. Maybe coupled with Pain Split for recovery. I'm not sure it's enough to be broken.

 

[Ajwf]

I feel like the pro-bans are not adressing this correctly. They're just going "It has Shadow Tag, it can trap and counter you with it's exclusive-9-movepool-move that it conveniently has for all given situations, you can't argue with that, neener neener neener" without actually providing practical evidence. Pro-bans most obvious flaw is that they're leaning too heavily in Shadow Tag (which as we saw last gen in Wobbuffet which also had Destiny Bond and can kill another pokemon at full health with Counter / Mirror Coat) and theorymonning and not actual evidence. Since anti-bans last arguments have been weak lately, here's what I think the most solid anti ban posts so you can use this as a reference and arguments:


Both pro and antibans, please take a good read at all of this before pointing up further things. Also, people seem to forget that he has to actually take a hit when he sings, both breaking the sub, killing him or getting a taunt. If afterwards you proceed to alternate between two attacks and he disables, he's done.

I feel like I've already explained this, multiple times. I've addressed Zracknel's post, checked through the top 50 and addressed why checks are more or less unhelpful and addressed most points Zephyr brought up, though admittedly these have come from other people I've been debating with. It may be your option to ignore what I post (And I completely understand, they are very long posts), but please don't go about saying these arguments don't exist.

I hope this isn't OT, but I do have a question about the premises of this topic. Shouldn't we talking about banning Gengar instead of banning Gengarite?

Isn't part of Smogon's philosophy keeping bans simple, and banning Pokémon instead of abilities/moves/items unless the thing that makes a Pokémon broken is so widespread (like Swift Swim or evasion moves) that banning tons of Pokémon just to get rid of that factor would be impractical?

For example, in the past Latios and Latias were broken just because of Soul Dew. And yet they were banned to Ubers, not Soul Dew. And when Marowak was still a thing, it wasn't assigned two different tiers, one with and one without Thick Club banned.
I don't really see how the case in question is different. Are we really going to give each Mega Evolutions a different tier than their base form?

Actually, smogon likes item bans. Soul Dew, if you check 5th gen, is banned out of OU while latias/latios are major staples of the tier. Banning an item in this case is technically like banning a pokemon, but gengar is not broken by itself. And Marowak wouldn't be worth anything without thick club, but he's slow and that's why he's found in NU even with his item of choice.

 

[RowDog]

How do you need skill to Perish-Trap an opponent? What I am trying to say that it take skills off from games, is that Worse players are brought to a levelled field against more skilled players due to the possibilities available with Shadow Tag, namely Perish-Trap.

You need to pick a good time to switch in to make sure you don't take a hit due to Mega-Gengs frailty, likewise it won't want to a Thunder-Wave or some other statuses thanks to no healing. To avoid this you'll need to either weigh up the loss of a Pokemon in order to switch in or use a slow U-Turn or VoltSwitch to come in safely. Then the turn of Perish Song you are left open to an attack, and if you are taken to below 25% health you aren't going to be able to get off the last Substitute to last out the Perish Song and ultimately defeat the opponents Pokemon. It isn't actually as simple as what it looks, though he is an effective Pokemon if played right. I wouldn't be one to say that he takes the skill out of the game. M-Gar isn't just a sweeper which a player can just go "use whatever move hits hardest". Its a lot more strategy for him then quite a few Pokemon in knowing what he can handle and a bit of prediction.

And I have seen tonnes of bad players who use Mega-Geng, they get taken out very easily. He isn't a mindlessly used Pokemon and should be planned out well to compliment a team.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

You need to pick a good time to switch in to make sure you don't take a hit due to Mega-Gengs frailty, likewise it won't want to a Thunder-Wave or some other statuses thanks to no healing. To avoid this you'll need to either weigh up the loss of a Pokemon in order to switch in or use a slow U-Turn or VoltSwitch to come in safely. Then the turn of Perish Song you are left open to an attack, and if you are taken to below 25% health you aren't going to be able to get off the last Substitute to last out the Perish Song and ultimately defeat the opponents Pokemon. It isn't actually as simple as what it looks, though he is an effective Pokemon if played right. I wouldn't be one to say that he takes the skill out of the game. M-Gar isn't just a sweeper which a player can just go "use whatever move hits hardest". Its a lot more strategy for him then quite a few Pokemon in knowing what he can handle and a bit of prediction.

And I have seen tonnes of bad players who use Mega-Geng, they get taken out very easily. He isn't a mindlessly used Pokemon and should be planned out well to compliment a team.

The Perish Song set would usually be used to take out walls that cause Mega Gengars teammates trouble, e.g. Chansey. You missed the point why people say he takes skill out of the game: he prevents you from switching out. Switching is a vital part of competitive pokemon, and Mega Gengar ruins this entire concept. Wobbuffet and Gothitelle have Shadow Tag as well, but the former is as predictable as you can get AND has to rely on CounterCoat or Destiny Bond to kill things, while the latter just doesn't have the typing nor the stats nor movepool to be overpowering in OU, unlike Mega Gengar.

Also, just because bad players use Mega Gengar wrong doesn't mean at all that it's not broken, if that's what you're trying to say. Yes you need to use it correctly, but quite frankly that applies to every pokemon in the game. Worth noting that Shadow Tag makes it significantly easier to use Mega Gengar because you don't have to predict what your opponent will go out into, because they can't switch.