Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[termi]

I would suggest to drop Mega Venusaur from S-rank.
It has many notable flaws, such as:
-taking up the mega evolution slot
-no Leftovers
-vulnerable to status, especially burn
-bad STAB combination, Grass and Poison are literally the two worst offensive types in the game
-Taunt bait
-no reliable recovery, even Synthesis isn't that great with its low PP and Sandstorm being relatively common
-extremely vulnerable to Talonflame, the most common pokemon in the metagame
-4 moveslot syndrome. It needs Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Earthquake and Synthesis but it can only run 4 moves

While I understand it has many good qualities, these flaws are too much to ignore. Such a flawed pokemon shouldn't be in S-rank. Of course now I'm sure someone will inevitably post that these aren't real flaws and shouldn't affect its ranking.

I also seriously don't understand how people are finding this thing "unkillable". Even disregarding Talonflame and Mega Pinsir who eat it for breakfast, perhaps they're just not prepared for it?
Alakazam, Tornadus, M-Medicham, M-Gardevoir, most Taunters and pretty much anything with decent speed and Substitute that isn't weak to its common moves easily deal with it. I don't find M-Venusaur to be any more "unkillable" than Mandibuzz or Eviolite Chansey.

lol, the fact that something takes up the mega slot is a non-argument, especially regarding MegaVenu, who probably is the only really viable mega for defensive teams and therefor doesn't have any competition for that slot.
No lefties is migitated by other means of recovery (pretty much any MegaVenu carries two of them, seems enough to stay healthy). Status is annoying for pretty much any Pokemon and at least Venu is conveniently immune to Toxic and Spore. A Pokemon with 100/122 offenses can hardly be called Taunt bait. Bad STAB combo is only half an issue, because for one, it can simply use a coverage move (or put its counters to sleep), and two, it's a defensive Pokemon first and foremost, meaning that it doesn't give too many damns about the fact that his STAB combo is lacking. Remember how Ferrothorn was a top-tier threat last gen? Grass/Steel is an atrocious offensive typing, but you didn't hear him complaining about that while he was walling half the meta and then some.

In fact, we can also draw the line to Ferrothorn when it comes to things like reliable recovery, because mind you, Ferrothorn had Lefties and Leech Seed as its recovery, whereas MegaVenu always has Giga Drain and either one of Leech Seed and Synthesis, meaning in the end Venu might even have more recovery than Ferrothorn. 4MSS is kind of a problem, but not enough to undo its strengths. Weakness to Talonflame is a non-issue, because Mega Venu happens to be really good friends with Heatran and Rotom-W, both of which can stop Talonflame.

 

[____________]

Sorry for the lateness. This is a reply to my post claiming Gengar is S-rank.

Lol no I don't think so. Gengar doesn't have anything going for it other than the ability to run Disable. Gengar also doesn't hit hard enough, compared to Keldeo's Specs-boosted Hydro Pump, Latios' Draco Meteor or ZardY's sun boosted Fire Blast, all of which reside comfortably in A tier. Not to mention Gengar is laughably frail that a non-STAB Knock Off from a base 100 attack mon will kill it.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 260-308 (99.2 - 117.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Yes, it is true that Gengar is laughably frail, but he's been laughably frail for 6 generations, and he's also been an OU staple for 6 generations. It's not what Pokemon can do to Gengar, it's what Gengar's presence does to team building and the entire battle. Well all know any speedy fire-type or hard-hitting Fighting type can beat Genesect for a OHKO, but we all know that the ability to beat it even with a flame charge is not why it became banished.

Gengar has the ability to have a moveset that is hard-hitting and one that has absolutely perfect coverage at the same time, with his STAB moves hitting most of the tier with at least neutral damage, and the Pokemon he does not hit, he hits most of them for 4x SE damage with Focus Blast. What's also interesting is unlike the other SpA specialists that you name that has to round out their movesets with a nerfed Hidden Power, while Gengar has Focus Blast. It is also important to note that you are comparing Specs to Life Orb/Leftovers Gengar, and a move like Draco Meteor, which hits harder than anything Gengar dishes out, but hampers it totally.

Let me bring you an old Gengar set from Gen V.

Sub + 3 attacks

Gengar @ Life Orb/Leftovers
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power Fire
=> Timid Offensive EVs

This particular set features the Shadowblast combo. Hidden Power Fire was to specifically deal SE dmg to Scizor, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Breloom, Jirachi, Metagross, Bronzong, etc. Now with the Steel resistance gone to Shadow Ball, it opens up a lot. Jirachi, Metagross, Scizor and Bronzong gets totally decked by STAB Shadow Ball, even their specially defensive variants. Skarmory is 2HKO'd before it can get off a SR, and might get taunted anyway, which brings me to Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn is 3HKO'd by Gengar's Shadow Ball. Why not just use Focus Blast? Well that's the thing, it doesn't need it to do away with Ferrothorn, because to do so, all you have to do is Taunt/Disable it.

Gengar @ Life Orb/Leftovers
- Substitue
- Disable/Taunt/Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast

Now, all you have to do is Taunt Ferrothorn and do your thing. You can still take Ferrothorn out with Focus Blast if you choose to use it, and it will most-likely be okay because most Ferrothorn do not lead with Gyro Ball, and even if it did, You can put up a Substitute or Disable it. And the one Pokemon that ultimately makes Ferro a non-factor is Choice Scarf, Magnet Pull Magnezone, who can come in on a taunted Ferro and have fun (Scizor suffers this same fate). I have to use Genesect as a reference again because its U-turn is functioning like Gengar's Substitute or even its Taunt as far as scouting. The only Pokemon that can trap Gengar gets hit by Shadow Ball for SE, since Arena Trap Dugtrio cannot trap it because of Levitate. What's even more interesting is Genesect can actually be trapped by both MagPull and A-Trap if it doesn't use U-turn, while Gengar cannot.

I bring this up because Gengar's poison-typing was mostly a liability, and it's Levitate ability REALLY helped it against ground type attacks, and it's been A-rank forever. It's always had perfect coverage against Psychic and Ghost (Shadow Ball), and against Dark types that resist it and Normal types that are immune to it (Focus Blast). The fact that it can now use Sludge Bomb an as offensive type that hits two types Super Effectively and don't have to worry about wearing Sludge Bomb and being walled by a Steel Type helps it greatly and I have no idea why this doesn't make it rank higher since it effectively became better in almost every conceivable way outside of a change in base stats.

Putting all of this shortly, Shadow Ball and Sludge Bomb are both STAB, and it's round out atk is a 120 BP Focus Blast, not a 60 BP HP Fighting (or HP Grass for Keldeo in the comparison of the above quote)..

This is a list of Pokemon who as of Gen VI resist both of Gengar's STABs.



As you see, any Pokemon that poses any offensive threat to Gengar (which is not hard btw), can be 2x-4x SE'd by Focus Blast, or be scouted with a Substitute, or both. For any support Pokemon in that list, they're easily Sub-taunted and/or hit hard by Focus Blast if they decide to switch in.

Edit: Also, to note, Azumarill's Huge Power ability doesn't work like that. If Azumarill invested all of its EVs into attack and was adamant, it's attack would be even higher than Brave Conkeldurr's at the start of battle.

 

[November Blue]

Nominating Entei for A+ rank.

Yes, A+. Entei was never a bad Pokemon; it was simply a generic Fire-type with no redeeming standout features, which left it outclassed by Heatran, Rotom-H, Moltres, ect.

Fire is an excellent defensive typing if you can keep rocks away, and Entei's stats are incredibly good.

Entei's stats: 115 HP / 115 Attack / 85 Defense / 90 Special Attack / 75 Special Defense / 100 Speed

Garchomp: 108 HP / 130 Attack / 95 Defense / 80 Special Attack / 85 Special Defense / 102 Speed

Keep in mind that Entei's BST is 580. Its stats are comparable to Garchomp, of all things. Entei is fast, powerful, and bulky. Its typing is excellent both offensively and defensively.

Entei's job is to be a fast, bulky physical support mon with good offensive presence. Sacred Fire threatens almost everything, to the point that Entei has very few safe switchins and checks. A burn offers excellent support, crippling physical attackers and defensive Pokemon alike. Nothing likes having its Leftovers healing reversed, and if you pair Entei with powerful sweepers, the burn damage can potentially eliminate the foe's ability to check said sweeper.

The difference between Sacred Fire and any old WoW is that SF is a powerful attack. You can't Taunt it or bounce it back, and the fact that it's a 100 Base Power Fire-type move makes it immediately threatening. For example, WoW won't exactly prevent Ferrothorn from walling your Water-types, and a cleric can just heal the burn later. With Sacred Fire, Ferrothorn is gone. The move takes "use status or deal damage" and rolls it into one. Even resisted hits can turn into 2HKOs with a timely burn.

So, what stops Sacred Fire? Other Fire-types. Stone Edge and Bulldoze are standard moves that allow Entei to get past Talonflame, Rotom-H, Charizard, and Heatran. Entei can eliminate its own counters. Plus excellent priority in Extremespeed makes Entei a top-notch revenge killer with Choice Band.

Entei's flaws are that it requires Defog support and shines as a support mon, which means that it needs team support, and therefore doesn't fulfill the requirements for S-rank.

 

[Vileman]

Where is mega aggron
Also, id like to see kyurem-B in A+, that thing can get in easily, severely damage something( seriously it has 0 safe switch ins) and get out to repeat tje process later. Heck, Sr used to screw him but defog is everywhere so it got even better.

 

[Antonius the Great]

I'd like to recommend Heliolisk for rank C+/C. If weather was permanent this generation, it would undoubtedly be placed higher, but as it is, this thing serves a niche role as a momentum preserver for weather teams.

I only really have experience using it on a sun team, so maybe someone else can help elaborate on its uses in a rain team or sand team.

In the sun, Heliolisk can function really well as a volt-switch pivot. Coming off STAB, Solar Power and an acceptable 70BP, Heliolisk's Volt-Switch hurts heavily while providing momentum for the team. It manages to avoid Solar Power recoil due to volt-switching out, making the attack without drawbacks.

In addition, it's electric typing allows it to nuke water types that wall other sun sweepers. While Heliolisk's normal typing may seem more boon than bane, it does provide a useful immunity to Ghost- a decided advantage in the metagame of ghosts. Heliolisk also has a pretty decent movepool, with coverage options such as Grass Knot (important for ground types), Dark Pulse (allows you to hit aforementioned Ghost types that you switch in on) and even Surf (has no place on a sun team, but on rain teams this will synergize very well with the team). Furthermore, Heliolisk sits at a good-but-not-great speed tier, outspeeding the musketeers, Garchomp, and Infernape.

Lastly, it synergizes well with Charizard-Y, one of the two (arguably the better) Drought-bringers. Charizard-Y protects Heliolisk from Ground and Fighting moves, while Heliolisk can help sponge the ghost type attacks that run rampant in the tier. Heliolisk can always volt-switch into Charizard-Y when the sun is down, allowing Drought to be refreshed.

Nonetheless, Heliolisk has its crippling flaws, that keep me from wanting to list it as B or higher.
1. Very low physical bulk. This thing is less bulky than Infernape.
2. It's Voltswitch is easily absorbed by ground types.
3. Weather in general is somewhat weaker. The better Drought-bringer, Charizard-Y can only provide 5 turns of sun, while the weaker Drought-bringer, Ninetales compounds the problem of being weak to earthquake.
4. Weakness to Mach Punch.
5. Lacks options against Dragons.
6. Lacks options against Grass types.

Overall, I feel Heliolisk fulfills the description of a C-tier pokemon: effective given the right support, but have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy.

I love Heliolisk, he can be a bit unpredictable with his movepool imo. Dry Skin is the ability I've been experimenting with, as it lets him recover HP when hit by Water-type moves, which proves to be extremely useful. He has two immunities, one of which restores his HP, and he does get Volt Switch to use these immunities and act as a pivot. One thing I've found that it checks perfectly is Rotom-W actually, because it doesn't mind being Tricked a Choice Scarf and Rotom-W's STAB moves do nothing, so he has to rely on Hidden Power to damage Heliolisk. I also found that he can easily come in and revenge kill offensive Water-types (excluding SM Cloyster) notably Starmie and Gyarados. No doubt he functions better in weather, what he was built for, but I think he provides something to non-weather teams as well (to a certain extent) so I'd have to put Heliolisk for C+-, as he provides a pretty unique niche as an offensive Pivot thanks to Dry Skin + Volt Switch + typing, but his problem is that he is a complete glass cannon can be easily countered by Talonflame, Breloom, and priority users in general.

I can vouch for the sun god in the Rain, he's very effective. His offensive presence combined with his annoying inability to die in the rain (which I'll explain) make him insane. His signature move Parabolic Charge is basically an Electric-type Mega Drain, so he can use a STAB move to restore HP. He can even try setting up a substitute in the rain and recovering off damage with Dry Skin + Parabolic Charge. His other coverage moves make him hard to take down behind a substitute as well. He easily takes down Excadrill in the rain when he's get a Sub thanks to Surf getting a boost from the rain. With a sub he also gets Talonflame, who will undoubtedly break the Sub, but she then falls to either Parabolic Charge or Surf, depending on the situation. In the end though, he really wishes he had permanent weather. He functions well in doubles rain teams especially, since Parabolic Charge is a spread move, so he may become more common in VGC meta games, but in singles the weather nerf really hurts him a lot and it limits the time for his strategy.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

You cant say something is A+ rank after barely one week of testing wtf. Just keep using it for a couple months before even considering ranking it here. Also please, can we be less lenient with S ranking. Those are supposed to be the metagame defining threats, they ARE xy ou. Gengar is not that, venusaur is not that, and honestly i could see rotom going A+. Trying to push everything there just because they are "good" completely ruins the point of S ranking in first place.

 

[Magnemite]

Nominating Starmie for B Rank

As a spinner, Starmie really has its work cut out for it this generation. Previously, it didn't have much trouble beating spinblockers on the switch thanks to its stupidly powerful STAB Life Orb Analytic possibly rain-boosted Hydro Pump. However, this generation introduced newer, bulkier spinblockers to trouble it, particularly Aegislash. In addition, it now has to compete with defog users and Excadrill, the former of which are many in number and the latter of which is much more threatening in general and can actually beat Aegislash one-on-one.

However, Starmie still has its merits. It has absolutely phenomonal coverage, and still hits like an absolute truck. Its Life Orb Analytic boosted STAB Hydro Pump (or Ice Beam, in the case of Trevenant) OHKOes or 2HKOes every spinblocker in OU on the switch (although it barely misses 252 HP Aegishield if it gets two low damage rolls, but that's it). It has merits over Defog users such as Latias in that it only removes the opponents hazards and thus can be used alongside suicide hazard leads such and Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D. It is also very fast, and although it fails to beat priority users such as Talonflame or common Scarfers such as Genesect, it remains one of the fastest offensive Pokemon in OU.

Starmie fits the description of B rank almost perfectly:

Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

It certainly can't sweep through significant portions of the metagame, but spinning is more than enough of a niche for it. It can't always beat OU's best spinblockers, and it's a bit outclassed by the A rank Excadrill, but Starmie can still do its job with moderate consistency.

 

[TCTphantom]

Nominating Entei for A+ rank.

Yes, A+. Entei was never a bad Pokemon; it was simply a generic Fire-type with no redeeming standout features, which left it outclassed by Heatran, Rotom-H, Moltres, ect.

Fire is an excellent defensive typing if you can keep rocks away, and Entei's stats are incredibly good.

Entei's stats: 115 HP / 115 Attack / 85 Defense / 90 Special Attack / 75 Special Defense / 100 Speed

Garchomp: 108 HP / 130 Attack / 95 Defense / 80 Special Attack / 85 Special Defense / 102 Speed

Keep in mind that Entei's BST is 580. Its stats are comparable to Garchomp, of all things. Entei is fast, powerful, and bulky. Its typing is excellent both offensively and defensively.

Entei's job is to be a fast, bulky physical support mon with good offensive presence. Sacred Fire threatens almost everything, to the point that Entei has very few safe switchins and checks. A burn offers excellent support, crippling physical attackers and defensive Pokemon alike. Nothing likes having its Leftovers healing reversed, and if you pair Entei with powerful sweepers, the burn damage can potentially eliminate the foe's ability to check said sweeper.

The difference between Sacred Fire and any old WoW is that SF is a powerful attack. You can't Taunt it or bounce it back, and the fact that it's a 100 Base Power Fire-type move makes it immediately threatening. For example, WoW won't exactly prevent Ferrothorn from walling your Water-types, and a cleric can just heal the burn later. With Sacred Fire, Ferrothorn is gone. The move takes "use status or deal damage" and rolls it into one. Even resisted hits can turn into 2HKOs with a timely burn.

So, what stops Sacred Fire? Other Fire-types. Stone Edge and Bulldoze are standard moves that allow Entei to get past Talonflame, Rotom-H, Charizard, and Heatran. Entei can eliminate its own counters. Plus excellent priority in Extremespeed makes Entei a top-notch revenge killer with Choice Band.

Entei's flaws are that it requires Defog support and shines as a support mon, which means that it needs team support, and therefore doesn't fulfill the requirements for S-rank.

I agree with this 100%. Entei is at lest A-, if we still have that ranking. I feel that bulk is especially good, as it allows it to stomach hits decently. Just pair it with a spinner or defogger, and you got a great offensive pokemon. Entei for OU.

Also here is a replay showing Entei and Mega Venusaur doing work. They work well together.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-73288829

 

[Ruffles]

Froslass
I'm going to propose that Froslass should be B+/A-, as it is, while outclassed by Deoxys-S, one of the most amazing Spikers, good amount of speed, unpredictable, versatile, fast Destiny Bond, fast Taunt, and can run T-Wave to get "Free turns". It also can run some quite gimmicky sets such as T-Wave + Hex; it also is the second best Sub-Disable user after Gengar, except that Froslass can use the free turns for setting spikes.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

I think Froslass fits greatly here, it does give the opponent free turns using Spikes, it cannot create free turns easily, but it can still do it, between T-Wave, Disable, Switcheroo, and Taunt, it can easily set up minimum of 2 layers of spikes thnx to Focus Sash, it may be completely flat out stopped by faster taunt, but outside of Crobat, it is faster than all the pokemons that would taunt/defog as regular bases.

Froslass can switcheroo it's scarf to gain a free turns, it can taunt the pokemons setting up, he has to switch so that's a 1 turn, it can disable a choiced pokemons so that's also a free turn, So Disable/Switcheroo/Taunt/Spikes can put 3 layers of spikes. Even though it loses it's focus Sash, it is a bit risky.

OR you can have Taunt/Disable/T-Wave/Spikes w/ Focus Sash, you can also layer 3 layers of spikes.

of course, you can use Froslass for support and just taking down at least 1 pokemons from the opponent, with T-Wave/Disable/Destiny Bond/Taunt or Spikes, you are either setting minimum 2 layers of spikes, crippling foes, making your pokemons faster (T-Wave), or taking minimum 1 pokemon down thnx to fast speed or Destiny Knot.

 

[V_Cliff]

Nominating Entei for A+ rank.

Yes, A+. Entei was never a bad Pokemon; it was simply a generic Fire-type with no redeeming standout features, which left it outclassed by Heatran, Rotom-H, Moltres, ect.

Fire is an excellent defensive typing if you can keep rocks away, and Entei's stats are incredibly good.

Entei's stats: 115 HP / 115 Attack / 85 Defense / 90 Special Attack / 75 Special Defense / 100 Speed

Garchomp: 108 HP / 130 Attack / 95 Defense / 80 Special Attack / 85 Special Defense / 102 Speed

Keep in mind that Entei's BST is 580. Its stats are comparable to Garchomp, of all things. Entei is fast, powerful, and bulky. Its typing is excellent both offensively and defensively.

Entei's job is to be a fast, bulky physical support mon with good offensive presence. Sacred Fire threatens almost everything, to the point that Entei has very few safe switchins and checks. A burn offers excellent support, crippling physical attackers and defensive Pokemon alike. Nothing likes having its Leftovers healing reversed, and if you pair Entei with powerful sweepers, the burn damage can potentially eliminate the foe's ability to check said sweeper.

The difference between Sacred Fire and any old WoW is that SF is a powerful attack. You can't Taunt it or bounce it back, and the fact that it's a 100 Base Power Fire-type move makes it immediately threatening. For example, WoW won't exactly prevent Ferrothorn from walling your Water-types, and a cleric can just heal the burn later. With Sacred Fire, Ferrothorn is gone. The move takes "use status or deal damage" and rolls it into one. Even resisted hits can turn into 2HKOs with a timely burn.

So, what stops Sacred Fire? Other Fire-types. Stone Edge and Bulldoze are standard moves that allow Entei to get past Talonflame, Rotom-H, Charizard, and Heatran. Entei can eliminate its own counters. Plus excellent priority in Extremespeed makes Entei a top-notch revenge killer with Choice Band.


Entei's flaws are that it requires Defog support and shines as a support mon, which means that it needs team support, and therefore doesn't fulfill the requirements for S-rank.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time

Sacred Fire alone doesnt turns Entei in an "Exellent support pokemon"
Just because it can burn something with a damaging move doesnt make it a team supporter.
Yes, 100 BP stab move from a 115 base atack with a 50% Burn chance is incredible, particularly if backed with a Choice band. And Extremspeed is always nice to have.

But thats it. While it has solid stats, its typing mono Fire isnt a very good offense typing and give it a SR weakness which undermine its 115/85/75 bulk.
Its movepool is quite shallow (offensive physical coverage consists of Stone Edge and Iron Head) and the forced Adamant nature that comes with its event is somwhat a
hindrance. And while 50% Burn Chance is damm high, Sacred fire is not a "100 BP move that cripples everthing" . It will keep physical threats at the bay and has a high chance to cripples defensive mons.
But special oriented mons that can take a sacred fire have no real problems to force it out.
But i agree, with SF and good stats all around, Entei has a small niche this Gen

Like SmashBrosbrawl and ginganija said,this thing needs more testing
(Seriously,this is not going to be a metagame defining threat.Maybe C-B Rank.)

 

[Giometry]

Nominating Celebi for B Rank
Celebi lost a few things this gen with new threats such as Talonflame and Mega Pinsir destroying it with ease. But Celebi did get one new trick that allows it to have the same bulk that last gens spDef Celebi had with the same power as the offensive, Assault Vest. Assault vest Celebi is pretty good running giga drain for grass stab and recovery, Shadow Ball for coverage, psychic for psychic stab, and uturn for momentum. Just another option in the arleady wide repertoire of sets that is Celebi.

 

[Josh Morales]

Nominating Celebi for B Rank
Celebi lost a few things this gen with new threats such as Talonflame and Mega Pinsir destroying it with ease. But Celebi did get one new trick that allows it to have the same bulk that last gens spDef Celebi had with the same power as the offensive, Assault Vest. Assault vest Celebi is pretty good running giga drain for grass stab and recovery, Shadow Ball for coverage, psychic for psychic stab, and uturn for momentum. Just another option in the arleady wide repertoire of sets that is Celebi.

This has already been discussed thproughly on page 6. I think you should probably check it out.

 

[sonnytapman]

Considering Mega-Heracross' current situation, I would like to Nominate it for C+ or B-. It is one of the best sash and Substitute breakers, but only having passable defenses when your quad-weak to Talonflame is not acceptable.

 

[halodeoxys]

I'm gonna throw my two cents and nominate Manectric-Mega for B tier.

Mega Manectric has an incredible 135 Speed and good enough 135 SpAtk. Normally Jolteon would outclass it, but Manectric has access to flamethrower(and overheat), scoring important OHKOs on lots of pokemon such as Genesect(Tbolt does around 63% on average whereas FT OHKOs). Throw in HP Ice and you have almost perfect coverage.

252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 180 SpD Mega Scizor: 340-404 (98.8 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 270-318 (96 - 113.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 324-384 (101.2 - 120%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 312-368 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

While MManectric works as a nice cleaner, he can also work as part of a volt turn core with his speed.
As for abilities Lightningrod can work great to get a boost off of predicted tbolts/twaves and volt switches before it evolves.
Intimidate also does wonders if utilized properly and when used with some bulk investment can actually live a jolly Garchomp's EQ and therefore 1/2HKO with HP Ice.

156 Speed with timid is all Manectric needs to be able to outspeed / 252 timid Greninja, meaning you can still outspeed the entire unscarfed/unboosted threat in the tier except I guess Aerodactyl but w/e. This lets you run 100 extra EVs for bulk. I suggest defense honestly because with Intimidate it can really prove handy.

-1 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 100 Def Mega Manectric: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 100 Def Mega Manectric: 204-240 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (in case anyone is wondering bullet punch + CC at -1 Atk does a max of 99.9%)

+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 100 Def Mega Manectric: 167-197 (59.4 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 100 Def Mega Manectric: 130-154 (46.2 - 54.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

So basically as long as hazards are kept away and Manectric remains fresh it can take some hits pretty darn well for a sweep-based pokemon the turn it evolves and begin its sweep. This obviously needs some support and so you can't always just throw Manectric on a team saying "go sic em doge", although I wouldn't say it needs an entire team built around it either. Not to mention there are some pokemon Manny just can't take down despite the coverage such as Rotom-W and MVenusaur. Therefore I think Mega Manectric should be B or B+ tier.

 

[SergantGold]

Considering Mega-Heracross' current situation, I would like to Nominate it for C+ or B-. It is one of the best sash and Substitute breakers, but only having passable defenses when your quad-weak to Talonflame is not acceptable.

I honestly think it should be A, or A- minimum. It's large bulk(85/115/105 is not just "passable" by any means on a Wallbreaker/sweeper), one of the absolute highest base attack stats in the game (185), and plenty of moves to abuse skill link with lets it be a brillian wallbreaker of if you have the balls and its at realitivly high HP it can function as a bulky sweeper. I actively use it and it works really well with bullet seed/pin missle/rock blast/EQ(CC hurts it more than it helps, as it lowers it's defendes and lets the common S-Ranker Aegislash beat it.)It also doesn't have dumb triangle arms like Pinsir.

 

[SergantGold]

I disagree. The good bulk is all and well, but that doesn't matter is it's one shotted by Talonflame. So no, B+ at most.

Talon can only check fyi. And considering mega Hera has teammates and that talon cannot switch into mega Hera, it will have to revenge at which point you could easily switch out to whatever you use to deal with talon. A weakness to be able to be checked by talon by no means should make you go down a rank. Unless the flaw is a 4x SR weakness/Shit bulk, which Hera lacks both of.

 

[Josh Morales]

I disagree. The good bulk is all and well, but that doesn't matter is it's one shotted by Talonflame. So no, B+ at most.

You do forget that MHera gets Rock Blast. All you have to do is use Substitute on a forced switch and if they go into Talonflame just obliterate him with Rock Blast as he breaks your sub. If you're bringing him in against Talonflame to 1v1 him then that's you're problem. The real issue with MHera is its speed that only really lets it function as a powerful hit-and-run attacker and it certainly is a damn good one. I still give it a B+ at least, though.

 

[SergantGold]

You do forget that MHera gets Rock Blast. All you have to do is use Substitute on a forced switch and if they go into Talonflame just obliterate him with Rock Blast as he breaks your sub. If you're bringing him in against Talonflame to 1v1 him then that's you're problem. The real issue with MHera is its speed that only really lets it function as a powerful hit-and-run attacker and it certainly is a damn good one. I still give it a B at least, though.

Mega Hera isn't a hit and run attacker it's a Wallbreaker/bulky sweeper.
Even walls with subs aren't safe, it just rolls over them.

 

[halodeoxys]

I honestly think it should be A, or A- minimum. It's large bulk(85/115/105 is not just "passable" by any means on a Wallbreaker/sweeper), one of the absolute highest base attack stats in the game (185), and plenty of moves to abuse skill link with lets it be a brillian wallbreaker of if you have the balls and its at realitivly high HP it can function as a bulky sweeper. I actively use it and it works really well with bullet seed/pin missle/rock blast/EQ(CC hurts it more than it helps, as it lowers it's defendes and lets the common S-Ranker Aegislash beat it.)It also doesn't have dumb triangle arms like Pinsir.

A tier is too high, Hera-Mega is just too slow and has a generally bad defensive type to bring its nice bulk down. Its really vulnerable to burns, especially since its outsped by Rotom who usually has will-o. It can definitely work and work well but it needs a lot of the right support. I'm on board with C+ or B- for it.

And don't go making fun of pinsirs manly triangles when Heracross has spiked bowling balls for hands and a Pinocchio nose kappa

 

[SergantGold]

The other problem is that Fairy weakness. MHera only has a passable 105 base Special defense. That means that fairy types wreak him with Moonblast. Not to mention that there's a surprising number of pokemon that can learn Dazzling Gleam. Most pokemon that can learn that move have enough Special attack to at least 2HKO him.

He can OHKO most of them back. And again 85/115/105 is just "passable" for a freaking Wallbreaker/bulky sweeper it's above average which is really good. Very few non flying things have come close to OHKOing or 2HKOing in my experiences.

A tier is too high, Hera-Mega is just too slow and has a generally bad defensive type to bring its nice bulk down. Its really vulnerable to burns, especially since its outsped by Rotom who usually has will-o. It can definitely work and work well but it needs a lot of the right support. I'm on board with C+ or B- for it.

And don't go making fun of pinsirs manly triangles when Heracross has spiked bowling balls for hands kappa

Every physical sweeper is burn weak unless it has a lum berry. And I'm pretty sure every Rotom only checks Mega Hera.

And spiked bowling balls are more useful that rounded triangles with a little meat ball at the end in a fist fight.

 

[Josh Morales]

Mega Hera isn't a hit and run attacker it's a Wallbreaker/bulky sweeper.
Even walls with subs aren't safe, it just rolls over them.

Yes this is true, it is a wall breaker. But it is not a sweeper because of how incredibly easy it is to revenge kill. You will one or two hits but you don't really have a chance if they try to revenge kill you with a check/counter obviously. In my experience, that's why it's a hit-and-run attacker. You force a switch, probably get a kill, they switch in a counter, you switch out.

Anyways I still don't think he qualifies for A rank because

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

I think Mega Mawile does its job a bit better imo.

 

[termi]

The other problem is that Fairy weakness. MHera only has a passable 105 base Special defense. That means that fairy types wreak him with Moonblast. Not to mention that there's a surprising number of pokemon that can learn Dazzling Gleam. Most pokemon that can learn that move have enough Special attack to at least 2HKO him.

85/105 is more special bulk than Rotom-W and Rotom-W is considered bulky so idk what you're trying to say here. On top of that, there's only two really common fairies in OU, these being Azumarill and Togekiss, and the latter does not appreciate a Rock Blast to the face at all. Azumarill does check him, but it's only natural that things have checks and it's not like Heracross can't switch out. Not saying Heracross deserves A-rank or anything, but keep it real man, don't come with non-arguments like these. If anything, Heracross deserves low B rank or high C rank, because while it's strong, it has to take hits quite often due to its subpar speed and its coverage isn't that great. If only he had powerful priority.

 

[SergantGold]

Yes this is true, it is a wall breaker. But it is not a sweeper because of how incredibly easy it is to revenge kill. You will one or two hits but you don't really have a chance if they try to revenge kill you with a check/counter obviously. In my experience, that's why it's a hit-and-run attacker. You force a switch, probably get a kill, they switch in a counter, you switch out.

Anyways I still don't think he qualifies for A rank because



I think Mega Mawile does its job a bit better imo.

Mawile is only a sweeper. Mega Hera is primarily a Wallbreaker. Different primary roles

 

[SergantGold]

85/105 is more special bulk than Rotom-W and Rotom-W is considered bulky so idk what you're trying to say here. On top of that, there's only two really common fairies in OU, these being Azumarill and Togekiss, and the latter does not appreciate a Rock Blast to the face at all. Azumarill does check him, but it's only natural that things have checks and it's not like Heracross can't switch out. Not saying Heracross deserves A-rank or anything, but keep it real man, don't come with non-arguments like these. If anything, Heracross deserves low B rank or high C rank, because while it's strong, it has to take hits quite often due to its subpar speed and its coverage isn't that great. If only he had powerful priority.

It has perfect coverage with EQ/Bullet Seed/Rock Blast/Pin Missle. You don't really miss your fighting stab

You're really persistant about this. Mega pinsir is better, as he's not only faster, but brings a unique ability to the table as well as a The only other way to get flying priority.

Again Pinsir is a sweeper Hera is primarily a Wallbreaker. Stop comparing a walbreaker with sweepers guys.

 

[Josh Morales]

He can OHKO most of them back. And again 85/115/105 is just "passable" for a freaking Wallbreaker/bulky sweeper it's above average which is really good. Very few non flying things have come close to OHKOing or 2HKOing in my experiences.


Every physical sweeper is burn weak unless it has a lum berry. And I'm pretty sure every Rotom only checks Mega Hera.

And spiked bowling balls are more useful that rounded triangles with a little meat ball at the end in a fist fight.

This is why we have a wonderful move call Substitute... so they don't status you...