Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[skies]

Could you expand on this a bit more? Particularly Freeze Dry:


0 SpA Mamoswine Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 108-128 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- 82.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mamoswine Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 146-174 (48 - 57.2%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mamoswine Freeze Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 158-188 (51.9 - 61.8%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

What EV spread are you running on Mamoswine in order to check Rotom-W? Heavy neutral nature max investment gets you the 2HKO with SR, while plus nature max investment gets you the easy 2HKO.

I had no idea that Mamoswine even got Freeze Dry, but I was considering advocating for him. Mamoswine is still one of the best leads in the game, especially for SR. Garchomp, Landorus or Landorus-T are also likely to be on nearly every team you face too. It's also one of the things that can beat Smeargle leads, as the 30% flinchrate of Icicle Crash means that you can stop it getting up hazards 30% of the time.

This, I mean:
252+ SpA Mamoswine Freeze Dry vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rotom-W: 176-210 (73 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
it needs a Choice Specs to even hope for a OHKO:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Mamoswine Freeze Dry vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rotom-W: 264-312 (109.5 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I don't know how Mamoswine is no longer worse off against Rotom-W than before?

 

[alphatron]

Naughty LO Mamoswine 2hkos rotom-W with SR down and you don't need any investment for that. Mamoswine should usually be carrying a life orb, even if it's setting up rocks. At the least, I can see this being good for baiting in Rotom-W. And you can even keep him from being a relevant counter to you altogether if he's taken some damage. The idea isn't to outright beat him or even go for the 2hko (the most popular sets outspeed mamoswine). The idea is to bait and hopefully cripple it. Mamoswine isn't exactly starved for moves, so I can understand why you'd run freeze dry. Even if I don't like the idea.

 

[Antonius the Great]

As for Klefki, I understand the B- rating. Might become B depending what sets become popular. I'm not familiar with any other sets besides T-wave/Swagger/Foul play/spikes/screens sets (any combination of those moves), so I can't say if it's worth a higher rank or lower, but B- is acceptable for these sets in particular. EQ and Fire weaknesses keep it in check I think, since it has to use T-wave or swagger 1st before doing much to an attacker.

As for Prankster users, I'm surprised Sableye isn't anywhere on the list. It's more common than klefki and actually has recovery and decent bulk, on top of being annoying with taunt/will-o combo, rendering hazard users useless. I think Sableye needs to get ranked. Perhaps B+ or A-. No matter what team I make, I always end up having a bit of trouble with it, not that it's necessarily dangerous, but it's annoying to take down, especially if the opponent has a specially bulky teammate they can switch in to whenever a threat comes in.

Sableye I agree with, he's an awesome Poke, and correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he is the only Prankster user that has recovery, excluding Whimsicott's Leech Seed. That tied in with WoW gives it an awesome niche in OU as a physical wall with priority status moves. Taunt also gives a good place in many teams and he even has Foul Play and Knock Off if it somehow gets Taunted, or even if it just wants to do a bit of direct damage. I'd give him an A if he wasn't so frail, but he completely falls to Talonflame and other Fire types that he can't burn, and his special bulk is so minuscule that a special offensive mon can come in and clean him right up without a problem. So I vote Sableye for B+

I see what you mean about boo boo keys though, I understand the B- Rating a bit better. I still think his role is unique though and his resistances/immunities give him easy switch-ins, I'd at least have to put Klefki in B for these.

 

[metagamesecrets]

As another person who has laddered pretty extensively at the top of the ladder this gen, I can definitely agree on a lot of what Ojama has said, and his post is a MUCH much closer representation of the what the current tiering list should look like.

S Rank:

- Genesect
- Mega-Lucario
- Aegislash
- Mega-Venusaur

I am in total agreement with these 4 being S-tier, as well as (the much more controversial opinion) the fact that Deoxys-S and Rotom-W are not at all S worthy. With the extreme prevelance of Defog users and especially Aegislash, I have found that Deo-D is handily the better of the two Deo formes allowed in OU. In addition, the extra bulk Deo-D carries allows it to tank random other hits so much better, and can actually support the team in better ways than Deo-S in my opinion, since you can opt to go with Rocky Helmet or Red Card, whereas Deo-S is all but forced to run Sash. And running offensive Deo-S is honestly a joke. It's basically begging for Aegislash to come in, doing another 60% to anything on your team and taking less than 40% from any of Deo's moves. Rotom-W is another thing that I find laughable in S; it's surely good, but what makes it any better than it was last gen? The ability to check Talonflame? It's signature STAB move was nerfed, it got literally 0 new helpful moves, hell even Hidden Power was nerfed. No doubt that it's a very good mon, but S-tier it is not.

A+ Rank:

- Heatran
- Talonflame
- Rotom-W
- Deoxys-D
- Mega-Charizard Y
- Thundurus-I
- Mega-Pinsir
- Landorus-I
- Landorus-T: checks almost every single mega in the game in one way or another, can easily set up rocks, has access to Knock Off and U-Turn (which is a huge annoyance to most things that want to switch into Lando-T), has a monstrous base 145 attack and Intimidate. Nothing in Lando-T's movepool was nerfed either, and it's still an incredibly good mon in whatever role you need it play.
- Excadrill: Best at what it does, your team needs a really specific set-up if you're looking for a spinner and you choose ANYONE but Exca.
- Kyurem-B: Still breaks stall like absolutely no other and giving this thing a sub spells the end for 2 of your mons on offense. The extreme prevalence of Rotom-W makes this even easier to pull off, and it's one of the only reliable ways to get past Mega-Venus without a Talonflame or M-Pinsir. The sub set (aka the only set you should be using) also gets past Aegislash 1v1 as long as you make a correct prediction.


A Rank:

- Greninja
- Garchomp
- Deoxys-S
- Azumarill
- Keldeo
- Mamoswine
- Gengar
- Bisharp
- Tyranitar/Mega TTar
- Scizor/Mega Scizor
- Mandibuzz
- Mega Gyarados
- Skarmory
- Conkeldurr: Assault Vest Conk is absolutely incredible; if you haven't tried it and you're near the top of the ladder, chances are you've run into a dozen or so by now. Supports the team effortlessly with Knock Off and pretty incredibly bulk on both sides, and can easily heal a ton of damage with Drain Punch, especially if you switch it into a Will-o-Wisp. Honestly the best anti-lead right now; fucks over both Rotom and Genesect leads hard.
- Lati@s: Very difficult to justify these being higher when they are such easy Aegislash bait it's almost silly. Anything on your team that allows Aegis to come in for free is a liability imo, but they're still one of the best offensive defoggers available.
- Terrakion: Not A+ by any stretch of the imagination, has a very shallow offensive movepool and obviously Taunt leads can be better suited to other things. The LO set is really decent right now, with EQ to get past Aegislash, but I wouldn't call it A+.

 

[Josh Morales]

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Mega Venusaur

Yeah, I know Mega Venusaur is already an S rank. I'm not trying to bring it up there. Yes, it is extremely bulk and does not go down very easily at all and can hit back pretty hard. Yes, it does have many options going for it, making it somewhat unpredictable, but the thing I'm questioning is the third passage I have bolded in the description of an S rank Pokemon.

those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths

In my opinion, this is entirely untrue for Mega Venusaur. Mega Venusaur's flaws(strong Flying- and Psychic-types) annihilate Mega Venusaur with only an iota of prior damage before it even has a chance to do anything, it just dies, it's dead, done, end of story. I'm not questioning that it's an incredible pokemon and equally incredibly dificult to take down but it's just not that bulky and just not that powerful to mitigate its weaknesses. And it doesn't exactly require little support, to have Mega Venusaur on you team you need to take care of Flying- and Psychic-types, which require two completely different types to counter(electric, ice, or rock for Flying and dark, ghost or bug for Psychic), so you're likely to spend two of your six pokemon to cover its weaknesses. It may be S material, but if so I think it's a shaky S. I'd really appreciate some thorough explaining on how it absolutely is an S rank. (and yes I have read Fuzznip's post)

 

[Swampertz]

Mega Gardevoir
I'd like to nominate MGard for B+/A, as it is one of the most outstanding Fairy types out there. It walls most of the dragon types, and can take many special hits.
- Gardevoirite
- Pixelate
- 4HP/252SPA/252SPD
- Hyper Voice (x1.3 Pix x1.5 STAB)
- Psychic
- Calm Mind/Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt/Energy Ball

Great coverage moves and a ton of power. The two biggest dangers I've seen are Gengar and Aeiglash. Gengar it can take a hit from and Psychic down, and Aeiglash is S Rank and you will need a counter for. Also remember that its only weaknesses are Poison, Steel, and Ghost, with the ghost enemies covered prior, Steel Enemies are definitely a weakness, but Poison being mostly special Gardevoir can take a hit or just deal out a psychic with its 100 speed.

 

[Pikachuu]

I don't understand why Megas are being tiered separately than their normal forms. The point of a Mega stone is that it makes the Pokemon even more unpredictable. Like Charizard, you don't know if it's going to be X or Y form and so on but that's just me which is why I won't participate in this thread. IMO it's kind of dumb how a Mega is higher than the original form even though their the same Pokemon and not to mention you can only use one Mega in a team.

 

[Josh Morales]

I don't understand why Megas are being tiered separately than their normal forms. The point of a Mega stone is that it makes the Pokemon even more unpredictable. Like Charizard, you don't know if it's going to be X or Y form and so on but that's just me which is why I won't participate in this thread. IMO it's kind of dumb how a Mega is higher than the original form even though their the same Pokemon and not to mention you can only use one Mega in a team.

Well some pokemon are flat-out useless without their Mega. In that case, you would only list the Mega but if a pokemon is good with or without the Mega then it's listed as ___ (Mega)

 

[Pikachuu]

Well some pokemon are flat-out useless without their Mega. In that case, you would only list the Mega but if a pokemon is good with or without the Mega then it's listed as ___ (Mega)

The Megas are like part of them now though. If Megas were entirely different Pokemon (real evolution) then I would understand but they are all the same Pokemon when entered in battle until they Mega evolve.

 

[AmShowdownNoob]

In my opinion, this is entirely untrue for Mega Venusaur. Mega Venusaur's flaws(strong Flying- and Psychic-types) annihilate Mega Venusaur with only an iota of prior damage before it even has a chance to do anything, it just dies, it's dead, done, end of story. I'm not questioning that it's an incredible pokemon and equally incredibly dificult to take down but it's just not that bulky and just not that powerful to mitigate its weaknesses. It may be S material, but if so I think it's a shaky S. I'd really appreciate some thorough explaining on how it absolutely is an S rank. (and yes I have read Fuzznip's post)

Your reading too much into those words. Your exact comments can be made about Genesect or MLucario, which are without any doubt S tier. If things didn't have substantial weaknesses, they'd end up in ubers like how MGengar/MKhan. You could have argued Khan was literally destroyed by fighting moves, but that didn't stop it from being a complete monster. Many pokemon could easily outspeed and OHKO with a powerful CC and it had no way of mitigating that, but that never stopped it from being an absolute powerhouse. That was because it was strong, and bulky. MLucario, one who's fast and strong, is killed easily by any fire/fighting/ground attack, and he can be outsped. Can Mluke mitigate its weakness against Lando-T? No. Not even at +2 in attack and needs +2 in special to take him out with Flash cannon. Does that make Lucario any less of a threat in general? Absolutely not. Can Genesect handle heatran? No, but still doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be S rank. Same is applied to MV.

Psychic is practically non-existent, only notable users being Reuniclus, Alakazam, Deoxys, and Slowbro. Flying type is the same thing, only notable users are Talon, CharY, Tornadus, and Togekiss. Compare that to the dozens of users who carry fire/fighting attacks Lucario has to deal with.
Here's some calcs to back the bulk of this thing:

Adamant Venusar 252 HP/252 Atk/4 def
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 314-372 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 272-324 (74.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Venusaur Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 255-301 (101.1 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Mega Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 242-288 (61.4 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO

Calm Venusaur 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 284-336 (72 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 150-176 (41.2 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 186-218 (49.7 - 58.2%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 322-382 (88.4 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-T: 154-183 (51.5 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bold Venusaur 252 HP/172 Def/84 SpA
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
84 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 300-356 (100.6 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The only real monster it can't handle is Tornadus's (either variant). Remind you these are against things you shouldn't stay in on anyway. Regardless of what's deemed S class, some pokemon simply can't handle every single pokemon, which is why you have a team and why those specific pokemon aren't banned. Sorry if too much text, but the whole idea of "a pokemon must handle all situations regardless to be S rank" irks me ^^'

 

[Ajwf]

Mega Venusaur

Yeah, I know Mega Venusaur is already an S rank. I'm not trying to bring it up there. Yes, it is extremely bulk and does not go down very easily at all and can hit back pretty hard. Yes, it does have many options going for it, making it somewhat unpredictable, but the thing I'm questioning is the third passage I have bolded in the description of an S rank Pokemon.



In my opinion, this is entirely untrue for Mega Venusaur. Mega Venusaur's flaws(strong Flying- and Psychic-types) annihilate Mega Venusaur with only an iota of prior damage before it even has a chance to do anything, it just dies, it's dead, done, end of story. I'm not questioning that it's an incredible pokemon and equally incredibly dificult to take down but it's just not that bulky and just not that powerful to mitigate its weaknesses. And it doesn't exactly require little support, to have Mega Venusaur on you team you need to take care of Flying- and Psychic-types, which require two completely different types to counter(electric, ice, or rock for Flying and dark, ghost or bug for Psychic), so you're likely to spend two of your six pokemon to cover its weaknesses. It may be S material, but if so I think it's a shaky S. I'd really appreciate some thorough explaining on how it absolutely is an S rank. (and yes I have read Fuzznip's post)

No... I can wall flying and psychic with one type, that being steel. But really, this argument is the same as saying that unboosted lucario can't possibly beat a slowbro, tentacruel and moltres. Other walls can easily make S rank with far more than 2 weaknesses. But you do realize that 15 out of 17 types aren't dealing SE damage, right? And to a pokemon as bulky as mega venu, how are you going to break him otherwise?

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 224-266 (61.5 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 192-228 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 240-284 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What more can you ask of him? These are SE attacks of the tier from the strongest users and he survives. Obviously, he wouldn't stay in, but what more can you ask? Then, to have his best stab recover him more health, have access to leech seed/synthesis and a wonderful attack pool?

Let's not forget the more rare but none less viable sun sweeper set that relies on growth Chlorophyll venu and then sweeping in mega form. Mega venu is a tank, a wall and an excellent centerpiece (and almost a requirement) for stall.

 

[Flechazo]

The Megas are like part of them now though. If Megas were entirely different Pokemon (real evolution) then I would understand but they are all the same Pokemon when entered in battle until they Mega evolve.

But the Megas are dependent on a stone. This is why M-Gengar and M-Kanga were banned while their base forms are not.

 

[Josh Morales]

Your reading too much into those words. Your exact comments can be made about Genesect or MLucario, which are without any doubt S tier. If things didn't have substantial weaknesses, they'd end up in ubers like how MGengar/MKhan. You could have argued Khan was literally destroyed by fighting moves, but that didn't stop it from being a complete monster. Many pokemon could easily outspeed and OHKO with a powerful CC and it had no way of mitigating that, but that never stopped it from being an absolute powerhouse. That was because it was strong, and bulky. MLucario, one who's fast and strong, is killed easily by any fire/fighting/ground attack, and he can be outsped. Can Mluke mitigate its weakness against Lando-T? No. Not even at +2 in attack and needs +2 in special to take him out with Flash cannon. Does that make Lucario any less of a threat in general? Absolutely not. Can Genesect handle heatran? No, but still doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be S rank. Same is applied to MV.

Psychic is practically non-existent, only notable users being Reuniclus, Alakazam, Deoxys, and Slowbro. Flying type is the same thing, only notable users are Talon, CharY, Tornadus, and Togekiss. Compare that to the dozens of users who carry fire/fighting attacks Lucario has to deal with.
Here's some calcs to back the bulk of this thing:

Adamant Venusar 252 HP/252 Atk/4 def
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 314-372 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 272-324 (74.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Venusaur Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 255-301 (101.1 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Mega Venusaur Power Whip vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 242-288 (61.4 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO

Calm Venusaur 252 HP/252 SpA/4 SpD
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 284-336 (72 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Slowbro Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 152-180 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 SpA Togekiss Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 150-176 (41.2 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 186-218 (49.7 - 58.2%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 322-382 (88.4 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus-T: 154-183 (51.5 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Bold Venusaur 252 HP/172 Def/84 SpA
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
84 SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 300-356 (100.6 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

The only real monster it can't handle is Tornadus's (either variant). Remind you these are against things you shouldn't stay in on anyway. Regardless of what's deemed S class, some pokemon simply can't handle every single pokemon, which is why you have a team and why those specific pokemon aren't banned. Sorry if too much text, but the whole idea of "a pokemon must handle all situations regardless to be S rank" irks me ^^'

Thank you for the very well put, very well thought out evidence that it is in fact S rank. I was just hesitant to realize it because I myself have never seen it be incredible as it obviously is.

I'm still unconvinced that Noivern is any more than a C, I just really don't like how it functions on a team.

Specs, weaker than any common specs user but faster than any common specs user

LO, weaker than any common LO user, faster than any common LO user

Scarf, outspeeds everything but underwhelming power

Leftys, underwhelming power and can be revenge killed by scarfers

Yes, a lot of its moves are of a high base power but then you have to remember that Draco Meteor halves your special attack, Boom Burst isn't STAB, Hurricane is very unreliable, and you still have a very underwhelming Special Attack stat. I would just rather use one of the Lati twins as opposed to ever even considering the use of Noivern.

It may seem like I'm underrating everything but I just don't want this generation to have major overrate-idis, if you can understand.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Maybe it's me being bias towards Venusaur, (I have a Bulbasaur plush that I love to death) so I think Mega Venusaur is still worthy of it's S Rank. All of the Pokemon in S Rank has flaws, like Mega Lucario being a bit squishy and dying to anything outprioritizing it, but Mega Venusaur is just so damn beefy. Let's assume that a Alakazam is running a Modest LO Set, Life Orb is fine, but Modest is pretty uncommon for Zam, but this is still a example.

252+ SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 276-328 (75.8 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the maximum Damage from one of the hardest hitting Psychics in OU, using a STAB Psychic agsinst something weak to it, wheras any of Zam's Coverage moves do pitiful damage, at least when considering it's Modest LO.

252+ SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 82-97 (22.5 - 26.6%) -- 31.1% chance to 4HKO

Besides, why would you leave a Venusaur against a Alakazam? Yes, some Pokemon give it a hard time, but you have 5 other Pokemon here, it's not Venusaur vs the World here. You see something that gives Venusaur a hard time? Switch to something that can tank it, like Steel Types. Again, I may be biased to Venusaur a bit too much, but I still think that it's good enough to remain S, if it were to drop, I'd say A at the very least however.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I highly agree with this. Mega mawile is great, but I find its speed lacking, and had to try a lot of things to patch that stat up. Mega Medicham on the other hand comes in and starts obliterating everything.

After having used a bunch on Showdown, I'll have to say, this isn't really true. It has plenty of switch in opportunities (certainly a lot more than something like Absol) and has almost NO relevant counters besides Aegislash, it's really, really easy to revenge kill. Unlike Mawile, which has bulk, a MUCH better typing and good priority. It's a mediocre sweeper; the speed, lack of priority and poor bulk (and AWFUL typing, seriously try to come up with a worse type combination that doesn't involve Ice) really let it down.

However, Medicham can hit HARD, with no boosts, and can OHKO pretty much everything that's not a dedicated wall (2HKOs Skarmory, the only things that can hope to wall it are Sableye or stuff like Dusclops and Cresselia.) Nothing Mawile can do on turn one can even compare to Hi Jump Kick. Medicham is also a lot better at getting rid of defensive cores and walls than Mawile. With Sucker Punch and Swords Dance being borderline mandatory, it really doesn't have enough coverage to deal with any good core. Medicham can, though, with the elemental punches, a ridiculous STAB in HJK that demolishes anything that doesn't resist, and Psycho Cut/Zen Headbutt which can OHKO specially defensive M-Venusaur. Heatran/MVenusaur is a ridiculously solid core and Medicham OHKOs both of them. The ONLY other thing I can think of that can do that is... Banded Staraptor? Add Rotom-W to that core, Staraptor can't OHKO that.

Despite Medicham's only decent speed, poor typing and bulk, lack of good priority and reliance on HJK which pretty much kills you if you miss, it's an exceptional wall breaker that no defensive Pokemon can stand up to, and for this reason... it should at least be on the list, you know?

 

[Tyrant laharl]

After having used a bunch on Showdown, I'll have to say, this isn't really true. It has plenty of switch in opportunities (certainly a lot more than something like Absol) and has almost NO relevant counters besides Aegislash, it's really, really easy to revenge kill. Unlike Mawile, which has bulk, a MUCH better typing and good priority. It's a mediocre sweeper; the speed, lack of priority and poor bulk (and AWFUL typing, seriously try to come up with a worse type combination that doesn't involve Ice) really let it down.

However, Medicham can hit HARD, with no boosts, and can OHKO pretty much everything that's not a dedicated wall (2HKOs Skarmory, the only things that can hope to wall it are Sableye or stuff like Dusclops and Cresselia.) Nothing Mawile can do on turn one can even compare to Hi Jump Kick. Medicham is also a lot better at getting rid of defensive cores and walls than Mawile. With Sucker Punch and Swords Dance being borderline mandatory, it really doesn't have enough coverage to deal with any good core. Medicham can, though, with the elemental punches, a ridiculous STAB in HJK that demolishes anything that doesn't resist, and Psycho Cut/Zen Headbutt which can OHKO specially defensive M-Venusaur. Heatran/MVenusaur is a ridiculously solid core and Medicham OHKOs both of them. The ONLY other thing I can think of that can do that is... Banded Staraptor? Add Rotom-W to that core, Staraptor can't OHKO that.

Despite Medicham's only decent speed, poor typing and bulk, lack of good priority and reliance on HJK which pretty much kills you if you miss, it's an exceptional wall breaker that no defensive Pokemon can stand up to, and for this reason... it should at least be on the list, you know?

Yea that's almost exactly as a feel mega Medicham can indeed be a superb wallbreaker. It absolutely decimates anything not resisting it with HJK

Also speaking of staraptor against rotom w.....
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Rotom w not gonna stand up to banded staraptor at all if it has prior damage. :p

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Yea that's almost exactly as a feel mega Medicham can indeed be a superb wallbreaker. It absolutely decimates anything not resisting it with HJK

Also speaking of staraptor against rotom w.....
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 252-297 (82.8 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Rotom w not gonna stand up to banded staraptor at all if it has prior damage. :p

Requires Choice Band to OHKO any of the things I mentioned, and that can be played around (Rotom and Heatran resists Brave Bird, Heatran Resists Double Edge, Venusaur resists Close Combat.)

Banded Staraptor is silly anyway. Also it kills itself with those moves. The point is Medicham is crazy.

 

[PenguinKnight]

I'd like to recommend Heliolisk for rank C+/C. If weather was permanent this generation, it would undoubtedly be placed higher, but as it is, this thing serves a niche role as a momentum preserver for weather teams.

I only really have experience using it on a sun team, so maybe someone else can help elaborate on its uses in a rain team or sand team.

In the sun, Heliolisk can function really well as a volt-switch pivot. Coming off STAB, Solar Power and an acceptable 70BP, Heliolisk's Volt-Switch hurts heavily while providing momentum for the team. It manages to avoid Solar Power recoil due to volt-switching out, making the attack without drawbacks.

In addition, it's electric typing allows it to nuke water types that wall other sun sweepers. While Heliolisk's normal typing may seem more boon than bane, it does provide a useful immunity to Ghost- a decided advantage in the metagame of ghosts. Heliolisk also has a pretty decent movepool, with coverage options such as Grass Knot (important for ground types), Dark Pulse (allows you to hit aforementioned Ghost types that you switch in on) and even Surf (has no place on a sun team, but on rain teams this will synergize very well with the team). Furthermore, Heliolisk sits at a good-but-not-great speed tier, outspeeding the musketeers, Garchomp, and Infernape.

Lastly, it synergizes well with Charizard-Y, one of the two (arguably the better) Drought-bringers. Charizard-Y protects Heliolisk from Ground and Fighting moves, while Heliolisk can help sponge the ghost type attacks that run rampant in the tier. Heliolisk can always volt-switch into Charizard-Y when the sun is down, allowing Drought to be refreshed.

Nonetheless, Heliolisk has its crippling flaws, that keep me from wanting to list it as B or higher.
1. Very low physical bulk. This thing is less bulky than Infernape.
2. It's Voltswitch is easily absorbed by ground types.
3. Weather in general is somewhat weaker. The better Drought-bringer, Charizard-Y can only provide 5 turns of sun, while the weaker Drought-bringer, Ninetales compounds the problem of being weak to earthquake.
4. Weakness to Mach Punch.
5. Lacks options against Dragons.
6. Lacks options against Grass types.

Overall, I feel Heliolisk fulfills the description of a C-tier pokemon: effective given the right support, but have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy.

 

[HanakoToast]

Here's something else to think about:
Adding Porygon-Z -------> B-/B

What do you get when you take a Pokemon with 135 SpA, not bad bulk, decent speed, and Adaptability to boot? You get a fucking monster with unmatchable power. If you want a Special wallbreaker, then Porygon-Z is what you want.

Hyper Beam may seem unconventional, but this is a 300 Power move coming off of a 135 SpA which will make something very obliterated or at the very least extremely damaged, especially with Choice Specs. It can 2HKO Blissey, Assault Vest Goodra, and some Steel types like Heatran and Specially Defensive Skarm.

Like I said, Hyper Beam is unconventional and not a lot of people would want to be setup fodder after absolutely destroying or punching a very large hole into something. But if you have some support, Porygon-Z is a very successful endgame sweeper with Nasty Plot.

Hide

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 328-387 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 359-424 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 299-354 (42.4 - 50.2%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 325-385 (80.4 - 95.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Porygon-Z Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 382-450 (102.1 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 243-287 (85.8 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 176 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 240-283 (59.2 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Scizor: 279-329 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 211-248 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 243-286 (79.9 - 94%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

What's holding it back from the higher B rank or even A rank? 90 speed isn't that great. I mean it's decent, but a lot of faster Pokemon exist like Garchomp and Terrakion will make quick work of Porygon-Z before it could do anything of importance (though it could get around some of these faster foes with a Scarf and still do a lot of damage.) It is also very vulnerable to priority and with Talonflame and Azumarill everywhere it aint making Porygon-Z's job easier.

Overall, it's wallbreaking potential shouldn't be ignored at all and has great coverage to reinforce such power. With the buff to Dark types now neutrally hitting Steel types, it doesn't have to run Hidden Power Fighting anymore (which was nerfed too) and instead a different coverage move like Ice Beam or Thunderbolt or Agility if you want a Double Dance set. Dark Pulse is really the only coverage move that matters since Porygon-Z will just be spamming Tri-Attack and blasting everything with Hyper Beam left and right except for those Ghost types and Mega T-Tar.

Damn shame it doesn't get Boomburst.

I can't into analysis pls be gentle ;_;

 

[Rotosect]

I would suggest to drop Mega Venusaur from S-rank.
It has many notable flaws, such as:
-taking up the mega evolution slot
-no Leftovers
-vulnerable to status, especially burn
-bad STAB combination, Grass and Poison are literally the two worst offensive types in the game
-Taunt bait
-no reliable recovery, even Synthesis isn't that great with its low PP and Sandstorm being relatively common
-extremely vulnerable to Talonflame, the most common pokemon in the metagame
-4 moveslot syndrome. It needs Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Earthquake and Synthesis but it can only run 4 moves

While I understand it has many good qualities, these flaws are too much to ignore. Such a flawed pokemon shouldn't be in S-rank. Of course now I'm sure someone will inevitably post that these aren't real flaws and shouldn't affect its ranking.

I also seriously don't understand how people are finding this thing "unkillable". Even disregarding Talonflame and Mega Pinsir who eat it for breakfast, perhaps they're just not prepared for it?
Alakazam, Tornadus, M-Medicham, M-Gardevoir, most Taunters and pretty much anything with decent speed and Substitute that isn't weak to its common moves easily deal with it. I don't find M-Venusaur to be any more "unkillable" than Mandibuzz or Eviolite Chansey.

 

[Ash Borer]

Porygon-z

no, it sucks. Normal type offers no defensive synergy, easy to revenge kill, the list goes on and on, Porygon-Z has not been viable in OU since 2006. Its just so slow and frail, it never switches in and cant even force that much out. You're better off with Lando-T or something if youre trying to nuke from the special side

 

[Ulevo]

I would suggest to drop Mega Venusaur from S-rank.
It has many notable flaws, such as:
-taking up the mega evolution slot
-no Leftovers
-vulnerable to status, especially burn
-bad STAB combination, Grass and Poison are literally the two worst offensive types in the game
-Taunt bait
-no reliable recovery, even Synthesis isn't that great with its low PP and Sandstorm being relatively common
-extremely vulnerable to Talonflame, the most common pokemon in the metagame
-4 moveslot syndrome. It needs Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Earthquake and Synthesis but it can only run 4 moves

While I understand it has many good qualities, these flaws are too much to ignore. Such a flawed pokemon shouldn't be in S-rank. Of course now I'm sure someone will inevitably post that these aren't real flaws and shouldn't affect its ranking.

I also seriously don't understand how people are finding this thing "unkillable". Even disregarding Talonflame and Mega Pinsir who eat it for breakfast, perhaps they're just not prepared for it?
Alakazam, Tornadus, M-Medicham, M-Gardevoir, most Taunters and pretty much anything with decent speed and Substitute that isn't weak to its common moves easily deal with it. I don't find M-Venusaur to be any more "unkillable" than Mandibuzz or Eviolite Chansey.

Well, you guessed right. Here's this post telling you those mostly aren't real flaws. Because they're not.

1) If it's taking up an evo slot, obviously it's not a problem if its a good evo, which seems to be the case considering it is being nominated for S Tier.
2) Why is M-Venusaur vulnerable to status anymore than any other threats? If anything, it's less prone to being negatively effected by status. Grass was buffed in Gen VI to not have to worry about notable moves like Spore, and Venasaur hits with Sp. Atk most of the time, so burn isn't as much of an issue as it would otherwise. It's immune to poison. At 80 base Speed, its nice, but it's not like its relying on outspeed anything major anyway, so Paralysis isn't huge either.
3) Leech Seed, option of Giga Drain are enough. What it lacks in recovery it makes up for in supplemented damage.
4) No Leftovers doesn't seem valid enough to push it off a tier spot.

 

[Cowtao]

I would suggest to drop Mega Venusaur from S-rank.
It has many notable flaws, such as:
-taking up the mega evolution slot
-no Leftovers
-vulnerable to status, especially burn
-bad STAB combination, Grass and Poison are literally the two worst offensive types in the game
-Taunt bait
-no reliable recovery, even Synthesis isn't that great with its low PP and Sandstorm being relatively common
-extremely vulnerable to Talonflame, the most common pokemon in the metagame
-4 moveslot syndrome. It needs Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Earthquake and Synthesis but it can only run 4 moves

While I understand it has many good qualities, these flaws are too much to ignore. Such a flawed pokemon shouldn't be in S-rank. Of course now I'm sure someone will inevitably post that these aren't real flaws and shouldn't affect its ranking.

I also seriously don't understand how people are finding this thing "unkillable". Even disregarding Talonflame and Mega Pinsir who eat it for breakfast, perhaps they're just not prepared for it?
Alakazam, Tornadus, M-Medicham, M-Gardevoir, most Taunters and pretty much anything with decent speed and Substitute that isn't weak to its common moves easily deal with it. I don't find M-Venusaur to be any more "unkillable" than Mandibuzz or Eviolite Chansey.

I disagree with these statements. Many people find Mega-Venusaur to be "unkillable" due to it's ability Thick Fat and it's amazing defensive capabilities. 80/123/120 Defense is something to write home about. To it suffering from 4 Moveslot Syndrome this can actually be a good thing. You have no clear idea as to what Mega-Venusaur is gonna run. Leftovers is essentially nullified with it's impressive moveset of Synthesis and Leech Seed. Sandstorm is only partially relevant and isn't the godlike nature that it was before. For Taunt, it is arguable but the most popular taunt users like Gliscor or Mandibuzz fears both of M-Venusaur's STABs. Talonflame is an avoidable issue but the problem with popular threats is that people are wising up and using great counters against Talonflame. Either way, if someone is using M-Venusaur, most likely they are rounding out all the potential threats towards it, including Talonflame. The only real status that Mega-Venusaur fears is a burn. Venusaur already has bad speed so it doesn't matter if he is paralyzed or not and M-Venusaur cannot be effected by Spores from the likes of Amoonguss or Breloom. Freeze very rarely happens which happens out of very small chance so you don't need to be putting a statistic on that status.

If you still think that Mega-Venusaur's bulk is overrated let me point you to the defensive Capabilities:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 135-164 (37 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 158-188 (43.4 - 51.6%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 146-174 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Venusaur: 281-330 (77.1 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 151-179 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

As a side note: I'm still kinda fresh to the commands. >>; I meant to put the stats to a spoiler box. Is there a way to put them in, I can't seem to find reliable instructions.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I would suggest to drop Mega Venusaur from S-rank.
It has many notable flaws, such as:
-taking up the mega evolution slot
-no Leftovers
-vulnerable to status, especially burn
-bad STAB combination, Grass and Poison are literally the two worst offensive types in the game
-Taunt bait
-no reliable recovery, even Synthesis isn't that great with its low PP and Sandstorm being relatively common
-extremely vulnerable to Talonflame, the most common pokemon in the metagame
-4 moveslot syndrome. It needs Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Earthquake and Synthesis but it can only run 4 moves

While I understand it has many good qualities, these flaws are too much to ignore. Such a flawed pokemon shouldn't be in S-rank. Of course now I'm sure someone will inevitably post that these aren't real flaws and shouldn't affect its ranking.

I also seriously don't understand how people are finding this thing "unkillable". Even disregarding Talonflame and Mega Pinsir who eat it for breakfast, perhaps they're just not prepared for it?
Alakazam, Tornadus, M-Medicham, M-Gardevoir, most Taunters and pretty much anything with decent speed and Substitute that isn't weak to its common moves easily deal with it. I don't find M-Venusaur to be any more "unkillable" than Mandibuzz or Eviolite Chansey.

S-rank is not for Pokemon that are completely flawless.

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Note the bold text. Significant portions, not absolutely everything. Mega Venusaur walls nearly everything that doesn't carry a STAB SE move, has enough offense (and Roar) to not be set-up bait (and not complete taunt bait), and everything you listed can't OHKO, except Medicham, and it only just barely OHKOs. Nothing short of STAB SE attacks or ridiculously powerful attacks like Yzard Fire Blast in Sun can even 2HKO.

>takes up mega slot
All megas do this.
>leftovers
Has Giga Drain, Leech Seed, and Synthesis to use. It's also the only good defense-orientated mega
>status
Immune to poison, sleep is rare outside of Spore and it's immune to that, paralysis is inconvenient but it had poor speed anyway, burn is the only real one and doesn't hurt much unless it's running EQ
>taunt bait
Has enough offense for this to not to be that huge an issue
>recovery
Sandstorm is not that common anymore, but I agree synthesis is kind of bad. Good thing it has two other ways to recover HP
>Talonflame
Can revenge kill Mega Lucario pretty reliably so I guess he's not S-rank either.
>4MSS
Maybe

 

[Maestro Arena]

What about Mega-Blastoise?

I think it should be in the list, in B- or C rank. Is a bulky spinner with 120 and 115 in defenses, and it can hit Aegislash and other ghosts hard thank to its 135 Special Attack combined with Mega-Launcher, turning it into a bulky offensive spinner which can resist hits well and give support to the team, together with a nice offensive movepool with new toys like Dark Pulse or Aura Sphere. A move which has thanks to Mega-Launcher the same power as Surf but with a 20% of confusing is good too.

Also, Alakazam has been mentionated but isn't in the list o_O

Personally I think mega blastoise is even better than that :0 . A spinner with the ability to heavily dent every spin blocker with a pseudo stab dark pulse off of 135 sp. attk is simply amazing.

Remember, however, that said spinner is susceptible to spikes, Toxic spikes, takes neutral SR damage, has no reliable recovery to mitigate said damage (not even lefties) and uses your mega slot.

Despite all this, I feel that Mea Blastoise is easily B rank by definition.


He definitely has a support niche in that he is a nearly unblockable rapid spinner, that can still punch holes in a lot of pokemon with his massive SpA and mega launcher, but does have flaws that I mentioned above, making his usage not S / A rank.

For all this, I'd like to nominate Mega-Blastoise for B Rank.