Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[alexwolf]

For exactly the reasons you just mentioned, Mega Aerodactyl is almost certainly better off in C or C-. The utility set you mentioned is almost completely outclassed by Deoxys-S who has:
-more speed
-Stealth rock AND Spikes
-Faster taunt
-Recover (if you really think recovery is helpful on such an obviously suicidal set)
-An even diverser offensive movepool (diverser is totally a word no matter what spell check says) containing ice beam, thunderbolt, superpower, fire punch, psycho boost, and probably a ton of other things I'm forgetting.
-Can use a focus sash
-Also doesn't take up a mega slot

As you mentioned, his offensive options are also kind of terrible. So yeah, outclassed and not that good to start with > C.

If you are comparing Mega Aero with Deo-D you are certainly using a wrong set. Mega Aero shouldn't be setting up hazards or dicking around with Taunt (which is an ok option though), it should just aim to as best at revenge killing as possible, which is its best role. I want you to mention one common unboosted speedy offensive threat that Mega Aero can't outspeed and OHKO. His offensive options are terrible? How is that true when it has very strong coverage moves such as Aqua Tail, Earthquake, Ice Fang, Aerial Ace, and Fire Fang, all of which except from EQ which are boosted by its ability. Mega Aero is basically the ultimate revenge killer against Pokemon that don't boost their Speed. It is even able to take one hit from common late-game sweepers with priority, such as Talonflame, Mega Lucario, and Mega Pinsir, and OHKO back. And it's not even easy to wall, as only dedicated walls such as Hippowdon and Skarmory can wall it, which only need to have taken a little bit of previous damage to be 2HKOed by the appropriate coverage move btw, or just lose if Mega Aero packs Taunt.

I don't really have a good ranking suggestion for Mega Aero atm, but its disturbing to see how people misuse it and misjudge it.

 

[Srn]

For exactly the reasons you just mentioned, Mega Aerodactyl is almost certainly better off in C or C-. The utility set you mentioned is almost completely outclassed by Deoxys-S who has:
-more speed
-Stealth rock AND Spikes
-Faster taunt
-Recover (if you really think recovery is helpful on such an obviously suicidal set)
-An even diverser offensive movepool (diverser is totally a word no matter what spell check says) containing ice beam, thunderbolt, superpower, fire punch, psycho boost, and probably a ton of other things I'm forgetting.
-Can use a focus sash
-Also doesn't take up a mega slot

As you mentioned, his offensive options are also kind of terrible. So yeah, outclassed and not that good to start with > C.

Mega aerodactyl still has better STABs and isn't affected by LO damage. He also isn't forced to switch out if you want to hit something hard that you can't nail with SE coverage (psycho boost).

And recover on deo-s? Hello? Roost is a viable option that m-aerodactyl has space for, unlike deo-s.

If you are comparing Mega Aero with Deo-D you are certainly using a wrong set. Mega Aero shouldn't be setting up hazards or dicking around with Taunt (which is an ok option though), it should just aim to as best at revenge killing as possible, which is its best role. I want you to mention one common unboosted speedy offensive threat that Mega Aero can't outspeed and OHKO. His offensive options are terrible? How is that true when it has very strong coverage moves such as Aqua Tail, Earthquake, Ice Fang, Aerial Ace, and Fire Fang, all of which except from EQ which are boosted by its ability. Mega Aero is basically the ultimate revenge killer against Pokemon that don't boost their Speed. It is even able to take one hit from common late-game sweepers with priority, such as Talonflame, Mega Lucario, and Mega Pinsir, and OHKO back. And it's not even easy to wall, as only dedicated walls such as Hippowdon and Skarmory can wall it, which only need to have taken a little bit of previous damage to be 2HKOed by the appropriate coverage move btw, or just lose if Mega Aero packs Taunt.

I don't really have a good ranking suggestion for Mega Aero atm, but its disturbing to see how people misuse it and misjudge it.

Revenge killer Deo-s can smack it with an ice beam first, but I wouldn't say its common. Mega manectric can also outspeed and probably OHKO with a 236+, forcing you to run jolly if you want to avoid this, but again, megaman isn't that common either.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

If you are comparing Mega Aero with Deo-D you are certainly using a wrong set. Mega Aero shouldn't be setting up hazards or dicking around with Taunt (which is an ok option though), it should just aim to as best at revenge killing as possible, which is its best role. I want you to mention one common unboosted speedy offensive threat that Mega Aero can't outspeed and OHKO. His offensive options are terrible? How is that true when it has very strong coverage moves such as Aqua Tail, Earthquake, Ice Fang, Aerial Ace, and Fire Fang, all of which except from EQ which are boosted by its ability. Mega Aero is basically the ultimate revenge killer against Pokemon that don't boost their Speed. It is even able to take one hit from common late-game sweepers with priority, such as Talonflame, Mega Lucario, and Mega Pinsir, and OHKO back. And it's not even easy to wall, as only dedicated walls such as Hippowdon and Skarmory can wall it, which only need to have taken a little bit of previous damage to be 2HKOed by the appropriate coverage move btw, or just lose if Mega Aero packs Taunt.

I don't really have a good ranking suggestion for Mega Aero atm, but its disturbing to see how people misuse it and misjudge it.

I was comparing Aero to Deoxys-S because Srn9130 emphasized a utility set with Stealth Rock and Taunt. If that's not actually his best set, as is becoming apparent, then I agree that the comparison to Deoxys-S was more or less irrelevant.
Apparently I was exaggerating how bad his offensive options are. Are the fangs powerful enough to get the job done? Because if so, that's not bad at all.

Srn9130, I was only pointing out Recover because you suggested Roost for Aerodactyl. I'm pretty sure both are pretty terrible given the offensive and relatively frail nature of both mons.
Aerodactyl has better STABS? Well, maybe he has better STAB types, but when his best moves of those types are stone edge (troll accuracy and not affected by Tough Claws) and Aerial Ace (60 BP), Deoxys-S's Psycho Boost looks a lot better. But anyway as Alexwolf pointed out, Deoxys-S is not a good thing to compare Aerodactyl to because it's

Okay one more thing. Aerodactyl doesn't take LO damage - that's because he CAN'T USE LO. How is that a good thing?

ATM I'm not sure what Aerodactyl should be ranked because Alexwolf had some really good points, I'll think about this more later.

 

[Jaroda]

Megaerodactyl has 80/85/95 defenses and resists Fire, Flying, Bug and is immune to Ground. Deo-S has 50/90/90 and only resists Psychic and Fighting. Aero also loses his Rock, Electric and Ice weaknesses when Roosting, which can be very handy.

Touch Claws is superior to Life Orb since Touch Claws doesn't sap 10% HP every turn, and its not like Deo's ability is helping it offensively. Aerodactyl is essentially getting free recoiless Life Orb on most of his attacks, that's great. Combine that with his great 135 At compared to Deo's mixed 95 offenses that 30 extra points in speed is doing little when Aero is only slower than Deo itself in OU.

It's important to judge a pokemon's viability with his optimum sets. I don't know what makes people look at something with Tough Claws as an ability, 135 At and 150 Spd and say "Oh yeah, this has Stealth Rock lead written all over it."

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 248-296 (70 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

His power is fine. As was said, his natural speed and attack make him as fast as most choice scarf users but with the luxury to switch moves and the power of having Life Orb on most moves sans recoil. That sounds pretty OU viable in my book. In and of itself it sound B worthy, but this is all theory on my part.

 

[TooMuchSugar]

Megaerodactyl has 80/85/95 defenses and resists Fire, Flying, Bug and is immune to Ground. Deo-S has 50/90/90 and only resists Psychic and Fighting. Aero also loses his Rock, Electric and Ice weaknesses when Roosting, which can be very handy.

Touch Claws is superior to Life Orb since Touch Claws doesn't sap 10% HP every turn, and its not like Deo's ability is helping it offensively. Aerodactyl is essentially getting free recoiless Life Orb on most of his attacks, that's great. Combine that with his great 135 At compared to Deo's mixed 95 offenses that 30 extra points in speed is doing little when Aero is only slower than Deo itself in OU.

It's important to judge a pokemon's viability with his optimum sets. I don't know what makes people look at something with Tough Claws as an ability, 135 At and 150 Spd and say "Oh yeah, this has Stealth Rock lead written all over it."

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 248-296 (70 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

His power is fine. As was said, his natural speed and attack make him as fast as most choice scarf users but with the luxury to switch moves and the power of having Life Orb on most moves sans recoil. That sounds pretty OU viable in my book. In and of itself it sound B worthy, but this is all theory on my part.

Aero gets free recoiless LO on most of his attacks... except his main STAB, which kinda sucks. I'm mostly convinced that it's a pretty decent mon by now though. The only problem I see at this point is that it may not justify the mega slot as it's not as terrifying as most megas. On the other hand though, Mega Manectric is in a similar position and it's in B, so that makes perfect sense. I think I'm gonna go ahead and concede this one =P

(god I seem to lose all my arguments, I think I'm doing something wrong)

 

[Punchshroom]

I don't know why it was suggested that Hone Claws is a bad move for Aero, as it's certainly better than no boosting move at all. Yes, it's no Coil, but boosting Stone Edge's accuracy is still pretty sweet, and while Tough Claws don't benefit its STAB moves all that much, it does give a very nice boost to its coverage moves.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Fire Fang vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 182-216 (55.65 - 66.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 284-336 (67.61 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 172 Def Landorus-T: 392-464 (102.88 - 121.78%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Oh, you saw Adamant in that calc? Yeah, Mega Aero is fast enough to outrun prominent threats, even Jolteon (but who uses Jolteon lol), with Adamant, giving it even greater oomph behind its attacks. Its typing isn't even bad, granting it a Ground immunity plus Fire and Flying resists which is admittedly pretty nifty. 80 / 85 / 95 bulk isn't very frail either and can definitely set up on shit. Mega Aero is speedy, has very respectable power and can cover a lot with its attacks so that it can limit switch-ins, but it is pretty weak to priority and it's a Mega. B+ is my verdict.

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I'm gonna bring up something many people overlook: Noivern. Its main advantages are its Speed and its powerful attacks, which consist of stuff like Draco Meteor, Hurricane, Focus Blast, and Boomburst (Boomburst isn't really good tho). However, we all know 97 Special Attack can only push those attacks so far, and Noivern has difficulty attaining many neutral OHKOes. However, Noivern has some advantages over its Dragon brethren, so that it isn't totally eclipsed. Compare that to Salamence, who is outclassed but still a very veritable threat in its own right, ending up in C+.

Noivern is most often seen as a Specs variant since it wants all the power behind its attacks, plus it has Switcheroo which is always cool for a Choiced Pokemon to have. This will inevitably draw comparisons to Latios, who has Trick, Psyshock, and most importantly much greater power over Noivern (130 vs 97 wut). Noivern however, boasts better coverage than Latios: common switch-ins to Latios include Scizor, Tyranitar, and Aegislash, but Noivern has Flamethrower and Focus Blast to make them think twice. Noivern also has U-turn, though its sheer lack of power and Noivern's SR weakness doesn't make this an appealing pro imo. The one other trick Noivern has up its sleeve are its abilities. Infiltrator's benefits are obvious: hitting a Pokemon behind its Substitute removes the 'safety' aspect the latter has and essentially wastes the Sub, but Frisk has the benefit of scouting out the opponent's items. In a metagame where Mega Evolutions exist, it can be crucial to know what opponents you can / should Trick and what you cannot / should not. Noivern also makes decent use of Frisk in general due to its speed: being able to scout out Scarf / Expert Belt Genesect, Scarf / Mega Garchomp, and Charizard X / Y and being able to respond quickly without suffering unnecessary damage is an undeniably useful asset to have.

There is also this other little gem I found Noivern to possess: Super Fang. Noivern commonly suffers the issue of not 2HKOing bulkier switch-ins due to Draco Meteor neutering it so much that it cannot do so, and this can present a problem when Draco is often Noivern's best opening move. Super Fang allows Noivern to cleanly shave off half of an opponent's health while saving the Draco or some other attack to KO them afterwards. It is Noivern's best attack against bulky stuff like Chansey, Sylveon, Azumarill, etc... and can be used to crack open bulky cores and / or force them to heal, giving your teammates the free switch. So just bring in Noivern on something it can KO, then wait for the opponent's bulky response and splice right through it, either doing a hit-and-run or just finishing it off. Best of all, Super Fang doesn't cost Life Orb recoil, so it can potentially allow Noivern to break through foes with minimal effort, which was always the biggest gripe people had with Noivern. It is still useless against Aegislash though.

That said, Noivern's raw power is very lacking for a Dragon, and its bulk isn't fantastic enough to make use of Roost to make a good stallbreaker (though Crobat gives it competition as a Taunt + Super Fang user regardless) as it's 2HKOed by stuff like Mega Venusaur's Sludge Bomb, or just survive a strong neutral attack in the first place. C+ is a fairly good bump for it.

 

[Salemance]

It's important to judge a pokemon's viability with his optimum sets. I don't know what makes people look at something with Tough Claws as an ability, 135 At and 150 Spd and say "Oh yeah, this has Stealth Rock lead written all over it."

The only part I think that makes people assume stealth rock lead is because its what Aerodactyl did for so long, so they try to give the role to its new form. Its pretty much just misconception or so of people if anything really since that's what he was known for and did for so long.

I definitely think, Zapdos would like to move up to at least B+. Having tried out a balanced team with it, I'm genuinely impressed, how tanky this thing is. Being one of the few things, that can reliable beat the majority of M-Lucario sets (physical and special alike!), is just super awesome, and it checks a tonne of other threatening things in this metagame, including but not limited to: Aegislash, Scizor, Genesect (even tanks an unboosted Ice Beam...!), M-Pinsir, Thundurus, even some Keldeo. Pressure is a fantastic ability on something so bulky - when I can't beat something out one-on-one, I can easily PP-stall a lot of dangerous moves to in the end essentially cripple them, and its quite decent 100 Spe is great to exploit this against slower opponents. Defog only makes Zapdos even more useful. Its probably one biggest drawback is its Stealth Rock (bad, when you're a defogger), which is probably the only reason, it might not go to A (but then again, Mandibuzz has this same problem, and it is at the moment A...)

I am bringing this back up just because I'd fully agree with Zapdos for B ranking.

He is capable of running both defensive and special defensive sets with a slight difference in his base stats (295 for Defense and 306 for Special Defense) while tanking quite a large amount from either side. Rock weak is sadly his largest factor, but in the end its not a bad one as there are a multitude of things that can effectively get rid of rocks now. Base 100 speed even un-invested is great for a wall, and having a base 125 Sp. Attack stat means he will be hurting hard while he walls.

Zapdos seems easy to rank in B as he does a great job while only being hindered by the fact he is weak to two common attacking types while weak to one common physical one while roosting. Overall he is an easy B+.

 

[Seiterman]

Galvantula is not getting Sticky Web out multiple times. It just isn't. It's too frail and it has extremely common weaknesses. It can often only get it out the first time with Focus Sash. HO teams want nothing to do with Sticky Web, they need SR/Spikes for important KOs. There are very few frail hard hitters that aren't going to be outspeeding everything anyway - bulky offense is the only playstyle that might benefit from it, but again, a lot of things in OU aren't even affected by it anyway.

SW is a crappy strategy, but if for some reason you're dead set on it, Galvantula is really the only way to go. He has no use outside of that, and SW has no use outside of a team that's meant to appreciate it.

Why can't a frail Pokemon come into play more than once? Slow U-Turns/Volt Switches are a thing, or if worst comes to worst Galvantula can come in when another Pokemon gets KO'd. It's not like he isn't fast, or that he can't threaten other Pokemon out. Without a boost he's not exactly nuking the metagame, but he hits hard enough with STAB Thunder.

Why are SR and SW mutually exclusive? There's no reason you can't use both. You don't need either of them out right away; getting them up early is obviously optimal but they don't just lose effectiveness when they're placed later. Lots of offensive Pokemon only need their opponents to switch into SR once to get the OHKO, and SW being up later can act as a substitute for a speed boost for a sweeper that needs it. If anything, they work great together because teams with few grounded Pokemon are generally weaker to SR.

A lot of things aren't affected by Spikes either but those see usage. Far fewer things are totally neutered by Spikes than Sticky Web, too. There are a lot of Pokemon that don't care, yes, but there are also a number of huge threats that hate SW. Lucario was #3 in December's usage stats, and there isn't a variant of Lucario that isn't made much, MUCH easier to handle with SW. #4 is Genesect, who runs Choice Scarf a lot and generally relies on being pretty fast. #5, Aegislash, is usually too slow to care, but Autotomize sets are definitely not undeard of. Hell, you can ensure Conkeldurr outspeeds it if it isn't an Autotomize variant with SW. Garchomp was #7 and often runs Scarf and non-Mega SD sets (even MegaChomp likes to use that first turn of 102 Speed to its advantage.) #8 is Greninja. Do I need to keep going?

As for what frail hard-hitters don't outspeed everything, well, the only unboosted Pokemon that outspeeds Scarf Genesect is Deoxys-S. It's not like he's the only Scarfer, either. There aren't as many as earlier generations, but they're there. If you aren't expecting a Scarf on something it can totally screw you over, too. There are still plenty of other boosts Pokemon can get, too. Even disregarding boosted Pokemon, frail offensive Pokemon generally have between 99 and 122 base Speed. There are a lot of Pokemon in this range, and the majority of them are pretty frail. It's a wide enough range where many Pokemon will enjoy outspeeding both boosted and unboosted foes.

Even if you only heavily affect one or two Pokemon on someone's team, they're made much less threatening by SW. How isn't that useful? I don't think Galvantula is some incredible Pokemon by any means, but I think its current placement is totally justified. People use him stupidly, but he does a good job setting up what can be a very effective entry hazard.

Now, all of this said, do you disagree with what I'm saying? Is Sticky Web so bad that, despite effectively neutering several top-tier threats, it shouldn't be used? Is Galvantula utterly incapable of anything else once it does its job? Do you really think that there isn't a way to get Galvantula back onto the field later when lots of frail, fast threats regularly deal with the same problem just fine?

If you can't refute these arguments beyond "but it doesn't affect everything," I'd prefer if we moved onto other stuff. I have no intention of scouring all of OU for every single set Galvantula can neuter with Sticky Web and I don't feel like this conversation is going anywhere anyway. Believe me, I like to debate things; there's a reason roughly half of my posts are walls of text. As of now though I feel that I'm just reiterating earlier statements. That's not fun or useful to anyone.

 

[Ruffles]

Ironically, all the prominent threats in OU are very weak to Mega Aerodactyl's movepool.

STAB Rock: Gets Talonflame, Charizard Y, Charizard X, Togekiss, Mega Pinsir, Thundurus-I, Tornadus-I, Kyurem-B, Gyarados, Dragonite, etc.

EQ: Gets Char X, Mega Luc, Bisharp, Mega Mawile, Excadrill, Terrakion, Heatran, Tyranitar, etc.

Tough Claws Ice Fang: Gets Gliscor, Garchomp, Salamence, Zygrade (to whoever is using it), Hydreigon, Lati@s, Dragonite, Both Landorus, both Thundurus, Tornadus-I, Mega Pinsir, etc.

Tough Claws Thunder Fang: Gets Azumarill, Greninja (you outspeed), Mega Pinsir, Manaphy, both Thundurus, Tornadus-I, Gyarados (mega), Gyarados, Jellicent, Tentacreul, etc.

Tough Claws Fire Fang: Gets Ferrothorn, Mega Pinsir, Trevenant, Genesect, etc.

Tough Claws Aqua Tail: Gets Both Landorus, Heatran, Tyranitar, Excadrill, Gliscor, etc.

Tough Claws Iron Head: Sylveon, Togekiss, Tyranitar, Clefable, Terrakion, and has chance of flinching to back it up.

Touch Claws STAB Aeriel Ace: Gets a lot of pokemons such as Mega Venosaur, Breloom, Terrakion, Keldeo, Mega Pinsir, Roserade, Infernape, Tangrowth, etc.

All of the above pokemons can't switch in on Mega Aerodactyl, as he outspeeds with an Adamant nature and fear 1-2HKO, on 1v1 situation, Mega Aerodactyl wins against 90% of the above pokemons, pokemons such as Mega Mawile, will have a hard time against it:

Turn 1:

Mega Mawile used Sucker Punch

Mega Aerodactyl used EQ!

It's super effective!

Turn 2:

Mega Mawile used Sucker Punch

But it failed!

Mega Aerodactyl used Roost!

Turn 3:

Mega Mawile used Sucker Punch!

Mega Aerodactyl used EQ!

It's Super Effective! Mega Mawile Fainted.

Against Mega Mawile, Mega Aerodactyl only wins if Mega Mawile attempts Sucker Punch on at least the first turn.

Even physical walls have a hard time against it:

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Fire Fang vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 122-144 (36.5 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 78.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 272-324 (76.8 - 91.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Thunder Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 252-298 (63.9 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 242-288 (66.4 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Aerodactyl is VERY Versatile, Mega Lucario, Talonflame, Mega Char Y, Mega Pinsir, Mega Char X, Genesect, Both Thundurus, and both Landorus, all of these pokes are VERY popular in current OU, and Mega Aerodactyl can check them all and along a lot of pokemons.

In fact, par Scarf Genesect and Mega Lucario, Mega Aerodactyl is dealing with the above threats EVEN with prior damage.

Very few pokemons can switch in on Mega Aerodactyl. And Mega Aerodactyl, if you play it right, can just scare off pokemon using it's versatility.

Definitely B+

Whoever uses Mega Aerodactly as an inferior Deo-S obviously doesn't know what he is doing.

As far as I'm seeing it, Mega Aerodactyl is the ultimate counter of Mega Pinsir.

No Boosting move? Hello Hone Claws, and now Stone Edge is 100% accuracy.

 

[myw]

See, the thing about Galvantula is that
1. Stickweb is brutal against many teams
2. 97% accurate Thunder is pretty baller

It's attack isn't anything to write home about, but it's going to make dents with Thunder. Bug Buzz is also pretty decent.
Plus, it has options like Volt switch and GigaDrain, which give it nice coverage/support options.

So yes, it has the stats of a low tier pokemon, but stick web is just that good and Galvantula can still hit like an OU at a good speed..

 

[Punchshroom]

Back again, this time recommending something different: Whimsicott and Liepard.

Prankster Encore is still very potent when used right, since it can undo a setup sweeper's work or discourage setup altogether. If they manage to switch into a setup sweeper in the midst of boosting, they can lock it in place and then easily attain momentum with U-turn right afterward. Both have access to Knock Off and paralyzing moves in T-Wave and Stun Spore respectively.

Whimsi's new Fairy typing gave it handy Dark and Fighting resists plus an additional, stronger STAB that it could consider as an attacking option since it doesn't have as shit coverage as Grass. It can annoy opponents with Leech Seed, and Prankster Memento to utterly ruin a sweeper's day. In occasional fits of shits and giggles, Prankster Worry Seed can change an opponent's ability when they least expect it, even in Whimsicott's dying breath: that Mega Pinsir / Sylveon / Greninja will be wondering what the hell happened as it loses its STAB, that Mega Mawile / Azumarill is suddenly rendered much less potent, etc.. Sadly the effect wears off upon switching, so it is nothing more than a gimmick, just throwing that one out there. Also, while Whimsicott has good enough Speed to outrun most priority users, it cannot do so without huge investments into Speed, which detracts from its already lacking bulk and leave it unable to take advantage of its good defensive typing.

Liepard doesn't care for its bulk and can go full Speed without much consequence. Dark getting buffed helps it too since it can hit more threats without much worry. Liepard gets Copycat and Sucker Punch so it could attack with priority if it really wanted to, though its attacking stats are very lacking so it should just stick to Foul Play. It could occasionally fuck with Aegislash's King's Shield with Sub + Encore. And then of course there are the SwagPlay sets, which I feel are actually have an edge over Klefki due to Encore, better Speed and Dark STAB, but people can drool over Klefki's "bulk" if they want. Not that I'd recommend SwagCat over Encore + U-turn Cat, but your call.

Unfortunately they are both frail as all hell, which makes switching directly into setup sweepers a constant risk, though Whimsicott has better defensive typing while Liepard is more competent at dealing damage. They also fail to stop certain setup sweepers in Talonflame, Mega Lucario and Dragonite, which are threats they would've really liked to stop with Encore. Prankster Encore + U-turn are huge momentum grabbers and is pretty much their thing really, which can warrant a C at least.

 

[sidakarya]

See, the thing about Galvantula is that
1. Stickweb is brutal against many teams

Honestly, most of the time it isn't. A huge chunk of OU is flying or levitating - you can absolutely make a solid team with almost everything airborne (which I've actually lately done; peaked around 1600 too). And of the ones that are earthbound, there's a big portion, of whom nobody particularly cares about the speed drop (Aegislash, Conkeldurr, Mawile, Bisharp...) because they're slow to begin with, have powerful priority, or both. That's also not getting into the popularity of Defog and Rapid Spin. You would need a lot of support even to slow down the half of OU not soaring above with an intact Sticky Web (and only Bisharp can "block" Defog).

Now if something like Forretress got Sticky Web, it might get more influence on the metagame - but it's the only thing, for which you would consider to use Galvantula. As an attacker, it's outclassed by the several other Electric-types in OU (e.g. both of the Thundurusses)

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

See, the thing about Galvantula is that
1. Stickweb is brutal against many teams
2. 97% accurate Thunder is pretty baller

It's attack isn't anything to write home about, but it's going to make dents with Thunder. Bug Buzz is also pretty decent.
Plus, it has options like Volt switch and GigaDrain, which give it nice coverage/support options.

So yes, it has the stats of a low tier pokemon, but stick web is just that good and Galvantula can still hit like an OU at a good speed..

take that "many" out and put in "some." With the focus on bulky attacking, not all pokemon care about speed. Between defog/rapid spin, flyers, levitators, slow pokemon, and a few other things, NONE of my OU teams give a shit about galvantula (I have 8 that are good enough to use). That thunder's not bad, and Bug Buzz hits magic bouncers hard, but he rarely gets more than 1 attack, and it almost never OHKO's

I think Galvantula's a terrible pokemon that barely deserves a ranking at all. The fact that some teams NEED SW to be viable means I can't ignore him, but I was thinking D rank or something like that, because he has exactly 1 weird niche, he can't always pull it off correctly, and a lot of the times teams don't even care if he does. Galvantula's not worth arguing about though, so I won't post on him again

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 620-732 (153.4 - 181.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 452-536 (111.8 - 132.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

But ofc I don't know what EV spread you are running, but the standard set is wrecked by everything.

I don't know about you, but this is very good bulk. With only 52 HP, you only take 70%-ish from max attack MScizor's STAB SE Bullet Punch?
125/100/90 is damn good bulk, son. Especially on an offensive mon. The issue he has with his bulk is his Ice typing, meaning that he's weak to a lot of common moves... but those stats makes up for it.

 

[Scorpio]

So, where does Metagross fit on the list? I feel that while the Ghost and Dark buff are troublesome, the introduction of Assault Vest makes it useful.

 

[Emerld Shuckle]

So as a new poster here, I decided to read the entire thread, and I have to ask what is the actual point of this thread? Are we just ranking things for the sake of ranking things? Because I'm all for that, I just want to know if there's so ulterior motive for this.

Anyway, I'm going to further the nomination of Diggersby to B rank. First of all, it should be said that Diggersby is not a sweeper. It is a few things: a wallbreaker, a scarfed U-turner/revenge killer, and a late game cleaner. Swords Dance life orbed Diggersby is absolutely horrifying. Once it gets a swords dance up, any mildy frail sweeper starts to cry.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-313 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 305-360 (106.6 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 296-348 (98.6 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 242-285 (100.4 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Remember, this is with QUICK ATTACK. God help you if you have to actually switch into a Return or Earthquake. It can even beat Rotom Wash, as 68 SPE EVs allow it to outspeed and OHKO with Return
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 265-313 (87.1 - 102.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

It has it's obvious faults in that it's not THAT bulky, and lacks in the speed department, but it's great at what it does, which is why I think it deserves a B rank.

 

[Shiruba]

Wow, all 113 pages? Dedication.

Just to clarify the purpose of this, as I understand it, it is mainly to show those new to the metagame [or just players in general] which Pokemon are objectively the "best" at what they do/work best in the metagame, as well as denounce those that are generally inferior. They're also useful for easily looking up potential new team members or finding a dark horse that is surprisingly good at its job, though this is more of a side-effect than an intended purpose.

They're also excellent places for the community to bitch each other out, and they are very effective at this.


But with Diggersby, I must wonder - how're you gonna get that free turn to Swords Dance when you're facing an opponent's team that would run sweepers like Latios and Greninja? They'd likely easily overpower you and keep up the offensive pressure to the best of their ability; Diggersby doesn't have many resistances or much bulk to take hits, and it'll be slow with Adamant in particular; if you can't down the opponent with your Quick Attack, you're likely gonna faint instead, and that's obviously problematic. Ghosts are also immune to your priority, and Gengar and Skarmory in particular couldn't care less.

 

[Judgement Blade]

There's one key fault with Diggersby though; it's typing is god awful. Weak to Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave and Aqua Jet isn't doing it any favors, the STAB isn't THAT good (rurr everyone with ground STAB that's physical is walled by Skarmory, but there's others) and it's ouclassed pretty hard by Mega Pinsir in the "OH GOD WHY IS IT KILLING ME WITH THIS MOVESET I KNEW IT HAD" department, with secondary outclassedness to Azumarill in the same department. What I mean by that is that they all serve the same purpose of hitting someone with a ridiculously powerful STAB, but Pinsir has more raw power due to the fact that it's a mega, and Azumarill's STABs, typing in general and priority are better. It's neat, and it hits really hard, but it's a lot like Heracross.
And before anyone asks, I did that on purpose. You know what I'm talking about.

 

[Timpsu]

Yeah, the thing with Diggersby is that it's really hard to get the initial Swords Dance up without something crippling it first. I think that in the first draft of Diggersby OU analysis, they were about to remove the initial SD set just because of that. Even with Scarf it hits hard, and still manages to beat things without being over-reliant on Quick Attack. With Band, it hits incredibly hard, and you are hardpressed to find something that can take one of its STABs. It has niches, granted, but it will be hard to utilise without dedicated team support.

Also one thing I was wondering, why isn't Magnezone ranked at all? We all know it's painfully slow, and that it's STABs are not the best ones in the world, but boy does it strike hard and true. It also has the niche of doing the best steel-trapping in the game. Although dragons are not as overly powerful now as they were in last gen, and u need to remove fairies in addition to Steel-types, Magnezone can still pull its niche better than anything else. In addition, Steel also hits Fairy for SE damage, so Magnezone is still a good addition to any team relying on their Dragons to do the damage. Even if u don't go with Magnet Pull, Analytic lets you strike switches for good amount of damage, especially if you use Specs alongside Analytic. I'm not exactly sure how I would rank Magnezone, but given that Malamar and Honchkrow both have niches that are classed OU, I reckon Magnezone's niche can be considered OU also.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

There's one key fault with Diggersby though; it's typing is god awful. Weak to Mach Punch, Vacuum Wave and Aqua Jet isn't doing it any favors, the STAB isn't THAT good (rurr everyone with ground STAB that's physical is walled by Skarmory, but there's others) and it's ouclassed pretty hard by Mega Pinsir in the "OH GOD WHY IS IT KILLING ME WITH THIS MOVESET I KNEW IT HAD" department, with secondary outclassedness to Azumarill in the same department. What I mean by that is that they all serve the same purpose of hitting someone with a ridiculously powerful STAB, but Pinsir has more raw power due to the fact that it's a mega, and Azumarill's STABs, typing in general and priority are better. It's neat, and it hits really hard, but it's a lot like Heracross.
And before anyone asks, I did that on purpose. You know what I'm talking about.

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 271-319 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 231-274 (57.1 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 278-329 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It also doesnt give two fucks about thundurus and rotom-w, can get past skarmory much more easily, isnt weak to rocks and has the surprise factor involved.

 

[Jaroda]

All of those are 2HKO anyway though, and Diggersby is not out speeding Mew to hit him with that. Diggersby may hit harder than a few things but you have to ask yourself what advantages you're getting over stuff like Azumarill with much better typing, bulk and STABs. Being immune to Thunder Wave isn't the most amazing thing for something that slow already. If it were immune to burn that would be different. The thing with Diggersby isn't that he can't sometimes work, it's that his competition for the same role is often surpassed by things with better STABs, bulk or speed. To me that's C- at best.

 

[Judgement Blade]

252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 271-319 (67 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 231-274 (57.1 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mew: 278-329 (68.8 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It also doesnt give two fucks about thundurus and rotom-w, can get past skarmory much more easily, isnt weak to rocks and has the surprise factor involved.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 93-110 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 86% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 222-262 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It doesn't get past Skarmory better than Azumarill, and they both 2HKO Rotom-W with Band, so Diggersy doesn't exactly do much better in that department than Azumarill, and they're both going to get ruined by it (either by Hydro Pump or WoW), so it evens out. Unless we're talking the boosting set, but that in itself is heavily outclassed by Mega Pinsir in nearly all regards except not taking 50% from rocks, and I suppose not outright losing to Talonflame. Also, the only way it doesn't give two fucks about Thundurus-I is if it has NO prior damage done to it whatsoever.

252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Diggersby: 316-372 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Otherwise that happens. Unless not giving two fucks requires the dice roll to happen in your favor.
But I suppose if you want the surprise factor it's there. I just don't like that typing at all. I don't think trading a SR resist and two immunities is worth being weak to 3 different priority attacks and not resisting the other ones when you have 78 base speed. Especially when two of the attacks are Vacuum Wave and Aqua Jet, vs Azumarill who has resists to Macuum Wave, BP, Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch and boast a far superior type and STAB combination to begin with.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

All of those are 2HKO anyway though, and Diggersby is not out speeding Mew to hit him with that. Diggersby may hit harder than a few things but you have to ask yourself what advantages you're getting over stuff like Azumarill with much better typing, bulk and STABs. Being immune to Thunder Wave isn't the most amazing thing for something that slow already. If it were immune to burn that would be different. The thing with Diggersby isn't that he can't sometimes work, it's that his competition for the same role is often surpassed by things with better STABs, bulk or speed. To me that's C- at best.

It doesnt need to lose half of its health to setup and can do so more than once if needed, thats a huge advantage over azumarill. The point is not that its immune to thunder wave, its that it can ohko thundurus with a boosted quick attack, something that pinsir cant do. The higher power also means it has an easier time scoring koes against stuff like the latiwins and the lack of stealth rock and flying weakness means that it has a much easier time against skarmory and doesnt require defog support, so thats another huge advantage over pinsir. Thats why it should go B rank, since it has its own unique advantages over its competition and is a potent threat on its own.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 93-110 (27.8 - 32.9%) -- 86% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 222-262 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It doesn't get past Skarmory better than Azumarill, and they both 2HKO Rotom-W with Band, so Diggersy doesn't exactly do much better in that department than Azumarill, and they're both going to get ruined by it (either by Hydro Pump or WoW), so it evens out. Unless we're talking the boosting set, but that in itself is heavily outclassed by Mega Pinsir in nearly all regards except not taking 50% from rocks, and I suppose not outright losing to Talonflame. Also, the only way it doesn't give two fucks about Thundurus-I is if it has NO prior damage done to it whatsoever.

252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Diggersby: 316-372 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Otherwise that happens. Unless not giving two fucks requires the dice roll to happen in your favor.
But I suppose if you want the surprise factor it's there. I just don't like that typing at all. I don't think trading a SR resist and two immunities is worth being weak to 3 different priority attacks and not resisting the other ones when you have 78 base speed. Especially when two of the attacks are Vacuum Wave and Aqua Jet, vs Azumarill who has resists to Macuum Wave, BP, Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch and boast a far superior type and STAB combination to begin with.

No one is talking about choice band so these calcs are irrelevant and i already explained what diggersby has over pinsir. Also lol what even prevents you from putting them both on the same team anyway, its not like salamence who shares weakness with other dragons, diggersby and pinsir have completely different types that actually complement each other very well so i dont see how is the pinsir argument so important anyway.

 

[PKMN Mister]

First time posting, and I need to throw Weezing into consideration for B Rank. Hear me out. This is the set I've been running and is why I feel he belongs in the tier.

Weezing @ Binding Band / Black Sludge

Ability: Levitate

EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef

Bold Nature

- Infestation

- Will-O-Wisp

- Toxic Spikes

- Pain Split

This set aims to trap and keep a Pokemon, most notably clerics and physical attackers, while setting up Toxic Spikes. Then you leave, or finish off the kill and keep healthy with Pain Split. With a Binding Band Infestation trap damage hits 16-17%. Combine that with with residual burn damage or poison/bad poison damage and you can see how crippling this combination can be. Trapping a Chansey/Blissey is golden with Pain Split healing a monstrous amount, and the wasted turns with Aromatherapy and Softboiled would be used to set up your spikes. Weezing's ground immunity thanks to Levitate and his natural Toxic immunity round out his versatility, and its grass/fight/poison/bug/fairy resistances along with its great physical bulk cannot go unnoticed. He is a natural counter to M-Venusaur as well with Earthquake immunity and resistance to grass/poison, and although his special defenses are low, he can recover HP with Pain Split and continue to set up/damage despite his nonviable attacking stats. Weezing also doesn't care about your steel type poison immunity and will burn and infest with unabashed persistence. He also frowns upon wish passers and forces them to stick around for tea and crumpets. And bugs.

Notably, his Psychic weakness is not very surprising and there aren't many Pokemon with Psychic coverage moves (Extrasensory Greninja exists? Wouldn't stay in against it either way), and the wrong prediction on opposing switch-ins means that at the very least he'll land a super effective Infestation before he switches out. Magic Bouncers also give him a hard time, although Infestation bypasses that and forces them to stay in and be made quick work of by Dark type teammates. Many will see Weezing and think "taunt bait" but Infestation is not impacted by this and he can switch out or KO the taunter naturally (for what it's worth, Weavile is hit super effectively by infestation!). At the end of 4-5 turns, should the opposing Pokemon survive, they will jump at the opportunity to switch out or risk being KO'd by another round of Infestation. This is where you can choose to recover HP on fresh meat with Pain Split, burn rapid spinning mold breaker Excadrill on switch in, lay another layer of spikes, or infest the next switch in. These are amazing tools in the right hands.

What you're left with is a Pokemon that can cripple stalling clerics and many physical attackers while dealing on average 25% damage per turn, who can set up hazards, heal, and trap Pokemon - even Pokemon that take pride in HP and status recovery. He is by no means a "powerhouse" but one of the most versatile status spreaders. Couple all of that with access to Destiny Bond, Clear Smog, Sub/status, Stockpile, Taunt, Protect and you're looking at some serious modularity to fit your needs, although the above set covers the most ground. A fantastic support Pokemon. Team Rocket would've caught Pikachu in the first episode if they ran this set.

And finally:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

 

[Vengeance417]

take that "many" out and put in "some." With the focus on bulky attacking, not all pokemon care about speed. Between defog/rapid spin, flyers, levitators, slow pokemon, and a few other things, NONE of my OU teams give a shit about galvantula (I have 8 that are good enough to use). That thunder's not bad, and Bug Buzz hits magic bouncers hard, but he rarely gets more than 1 attack, and it almost never OHKO's

I think Galvantula's a terrible pokemon that barely deserves a ranking at all. The fact that some teams NEED SW to be viable means I can't ignore him, but I was thinking D rank or something like that, because he has exactly 1 weird niche, he can't always pull it off correctly, and a lot of the times teams don't even care if he does. Galvantula's not worth arguing about though, so I won't post on him again

Wrongo.

When I use Galvantula, I don't equip Sticky Web on him. In fact, I lead with him anyway to make the enemy THINK I have Sticky Web on him. As he/she switches out to Espeon or Mega Evolves Absol, they'll take massive damage from Bug Buzz, and proceed to forfeit the match for being grossly outplayed.

Also, a highly accurate Thunder without the need of rain is what makes it stand out from other electric type Pokemon. Thanks to Focus Sash, I have taken out plenty Talonflames thinking they can be cheeky with me with their Flare Blitzes and Brave Birds.

Not to mention Energy Ball and Giga Drain for Quagsire and Gastrodon.