Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

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Perhaps he is joking with stone edge, though I am rather sure no one takes it.
Actually i do. Edge/Quake has nice coverage and it hits lots of dangerous threats out there for lots of dmg, Talonflame, both Charizards, Mega Pinsir, Dragonite etc. Alternative would be ice shard but as mentioned here so often, its rather weak and only usefull against things that are 4x weak to it. And since i am not overly worried about Chomps/Dragonites in particular i rather go with SE.
 
lolz, I do miss that out, but a SR resistance and a SR weakness are differed by miles. Donphan also has a superior bulk when it comes to fight, fire, etc. The difference in offensive presence is also clear, one gets a STAB for EQ while the other does not(note that this is the major offensive present of both of them).

Another underwhelming aspect of Donphan is that it gets knock off, one of the two spinners being allowed to do so in the meta(though Donphan is probably having some trouble with Gougeist-super), if you really want to of course, because one probably prefers defog if hazard control is so crucial.

Besides Avalugg, there is also MegaScizor, which beside Defog has also Roost, U-Turn, Bullet Punch(arguably much better than Ice Shard), much better typing and mixed bulk.
Note that I am using the physical tank set here.

1. MScizor win out by a slight margin at maximum invest (143104 vs 142848), but MScizor also win out with way more resistances.

However, Donphan does not care about Talonflame, but trade a weakness to Gyarados and Mamoswine instead, at least for the physical side, which is our major concern though.

2. Scizor is better off with SD set if I remember it correctly

3. If I am not missing out something, I don't find SR in the kit of Scizor

4. Mega slot man

Just a matter of fun facts, don't take it too seriously:

4 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 60-72 (14.2 - 17.1%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Mega Scizor Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 79-94 (18.8 - 22.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 82-97 (19.5 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Actually i do. Edge/Quake has nice coverage and it hits lots of dangerous threats out there for lots of dmg, Talonflame, both Charizards, Mega Pinsir, Dragonite etc. Alternative would be ice shard but as mentioned here so often, its rather weak and only usefull against things that are 4x weak to it. And since i am not overly worried about Chomps/Dragonites in particular i rather go with SE.
Just for confirmation, you are not using the AV set right? I don't think it works all that well. It is mentioned somewhere before, so I don't want people to perceive Donphan with its sub-optimal set.

Btw, even if Donphan works, it is probably a revenge kill, but, well, I can see how pinsir rage quit because everyone is expecting an ice shard, beware of Stone miss though.

I still can't understand how a wheel-like elephant know how to toy with ices.
 
Just for confirmation, you are not using the AV set right? I don't think it works all that well. It is mentioned somewhere before, so I don't want people to perceive Donphan with its sub-optimal set.
Nope i am using the "standard" set with SR, Spin, EQ and, currently i should say, stone edge. I am still testing around with that fourth slot. I have tried knockoff, iceshard, roar and now edge imo the most viable options.
 
Nope i am using the "standard" set with SR, Spin, EQ and, currently i should say, stone edge. I am still testing around with that fourth slot. I have tried knockoff, iceshard, roar and now edge imo the most viable options.
knock off/ice shard/stone edge is equally viable IMO(doesn't seem so well for play rough, 3HKO on conk), it just boil downs to team need. Be ware of Megachomp though, ice shard is not a solution for it, that insane wall breaker, sigh.

4 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 120-144 (33.5 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 226-267 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Probably a bit off topic, anyway, support Donphan for B-

It sucks at most aspects to be considered OU, mainly with the pathetic 500 BST, but its position as a well-rounded physical tank spinner, which also provides SR support, is unique yet commonly required enough that simply outshines the entire meta. It is not a good pokemon but it is an irreplaceable one.
 
I rly dont know how to rank it tbh. Donphan is pretty much the only Pokemon that can fill that specific role (aside from Forretress) and he fills it very well. Imo better than forretress does, the fact that he is higher in usage also indicates that, though the difference isnt big. Since Forretress is C i goes Donphan should be somewhere on that level as well, maybe a little higher, C+ or even B- though i can imagine the shitstorm thats going to come up if he actually gets a B- ranking xD
 
knock off/ice shard/stone edge is equally viable IMO(doesn't seem so well for play rough, 3HKO on conk), it just boil downs to team need. Be ware of Megachomp though, ice shard is not a solution for it, that insane wall breaker, sigh.

4 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 120-144 (33.5 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 226-267 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Probably a bit off topic, anyway, support Donphan for B-

It sucks at most aspects to be considered OU, mainly with the pathetic 500 BST, but its position as a well-rounded physical tank spinner, which also provides SR support, is unique yet commonly required enough that simply outshines the entire meta. It is not a good pokemon but it is an irreplaceable one.
The main reason I'm responding to this is to say BST is in no way a good argument for a Pokemon's tiering. 500 BST isn't really pathetic when actually good/great Pokemon like Alakazam, Ferrothorn and Skarmory all have lower BST's. At the same time, two notoriously bad Pokemon, Regigigas and Slaking, have 670 BST's. The point is to not even bring up BST's. Your total stats aren't really important, it's the combination of movepool, stat allocation, typing, ability and the metagame around a Pokemon that determine how good it is.

That said, I am seconding Talpr0ne's nomination to blacklist Donphan. I know a lot of arguments have been made for this guy already, and while I'd be an idiot to totally dismiss it as a threat, it's not usually a very big threat. C or D ranking makes sense to me, though I'd have to go back through the thread to reread enough arguments to really decide which makes sense to me, and I'm not really willing to search the entire thing right now. Let's just move on to other stuff, yeah?
 
The main reason I'm responding to this is to say BST is in no way a good argument for a Pokemon's tiering. 500 BST isn't really pathetic when actually good/great Pokemon like Alakazam, Ferrothorn and Skarmory all have lower BST's. At the same time, two notoriously bad Pokemon, Regigigas and Slaking, have 670 BST's. The point is to not even bring up BST's. Your total stats aren't really important, it's the combination of movepool, stat allocation, typing, ability and the metagame around a Pokemon that determine how good it is.

That said, I am seconding Talpr0ne's nomination to blacklist Donphan. I know a lot of arguments have been made for this guy already, and while I'd be an idiot to totally dismiss it as a threat, it's not usually a very big threat. C or D ranking makes sense to me, though I'd have to go back through the thread to reread enough arguments to really decide which makes sense to me, and I'm not really willing to search the entire thing right now. Let's just move on to other stuff, yeah?
That seems unfair. As a support mon, it fits the B- terms and conditions, which are...
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Donphan spins AND sets up rocks, and can phase, and does very well against physical threats, although he has trouble against set up sweepers, therefore, B- rank as a utility mon that can take a physical hit for the team when needed.
 
Anyway I think most of the arguments of Donphan has been made, so perhaps we can skip to the another.

Because Scizor was included in some point of the discussion so it rises my attention, I question if it really deserves A, at least for its non-mega form.

I have come across several Scizors(mostly megas), which are used in multiple ways, but none of them seem to be very impactful in game involved.

So I take a look on the conditions it faces, I won't go into too much detail though

Firstly, it basically lost its abillity to pursuit trap as effectively as it used to. It no longer resists ghost, and its special bulk is not particularly impressive.

Secondly, while 130 Atk is nice, most of its moves to be used are not. U-turn was never threatening by itself, 90BP Bpunch was what it was known for but this is so manageable in the current bulky meta.

Thirdly, new checks like physical defensive Rotom-W and Talonflame really gives it a hard time.

Forthly, at the beginning of the generation, we all thought it will be the premier defogger with good recover and nice bulk, and is not weak to rock like the fly-type does. It pends out that we are wrong, Latias is the premier special defogger as expected, but Mandibuzz comes out on top when it comes to the physical side. Mandibuzz also has access to recovery, and can actually do better damage with STAB foul play, the bulk is way superior, which turn out to be crucial in the current meta. Offensive wise it is completely outclassed by the Excadrill. In fact, defog discouraged EH to a point that EH control itself is no longer a necessity.

Nominate Scizor (mega or not) for B+(no exactly sure though)
 
I discussed Donphan because it doesn't have a position on the list. Donpahn is nto really outclassed by any spinner. Specially not Excadrill who has 110/60 and relies oin a balloon to patch one huge weakness.
Landorus-I and Landorus-T should share the category. I opt the two for A+ because the two are very effective.

I think that Dragonite should move up to A+.

I suggest dropping Excadrill but given that it's A I don't think its needed. But I remind one things: there's a lot of difference getween Gen V and Gen VI: the speeed difference is very notable. In Gen V it was very easy to use A SD, in Gen VI not anymore. 88 speed at +0 are "average" or even "bad" by a sweeper.

I think that because the Defog buff, the more rarity of SR, and because it can realy sweep if you let it set up Volcarona should be higher than B rank. Maybe to A or A- rank.

Espeon is not C+ in any way. 110 speed is one of the better speed tier that exist right now, 130 Base Special Attack is one of the best non-Mega Special stats available, and has an ample movepool. His good is not taking hits (although you can take a special if needed, exception of the obvious ones). A B- rank is fitting for it.

Also Salamence is too dsangerous to be C rank. It's walled by Fairies (specially Togekiss) but B rank fits the bill about being walled by some poekmon (Fairies). Also Dragonite and Salamence roles are not clones to each other. It has a niche with his two great abilities and his base 100 Speed and 110 Base Special Attack. A B or B- is fitting for it.

And about bad pokemon/Outclassed pokemon: They could be worse than pokemon ranked in higher rank, but has a key factor in them. No, I don't talk about pure crap pokemon like Farfetch'd or Raticate what we know are ridiculous. I'm talking about some species that if you don't take atttention it could cause some problems.

It's difficult that everytime that someone is entering PS everyone remember the standard set for every pokemon that can be a serious threat (and there are more than 150 (even surpass 200 threats) unless you are in the very top). Many players that play competively know what the stats of Aegislash are, what sets it can run and even how to predict because it's a top tier threat that many care inmmediatly when making a team. However, many members could forget what pokemon like Milotic does in the metagame. Team Preview says that a Milotic is appearing, not what stats have the Milotic and where is invested. But they could be instances where a skilled palyer are playhing wrong because it forgot what Milotic does and only know that is a Water and usually use Special moves. They use a Gengar Shadow Ball to defeat it easily (because it's crap) and suddenly Milotic wins by using Recover and Scald.
 
I discussed Donphan because it doesn't have a position on the list. Donpahn is nto really outclassed by any spinner. Specially not Excadrill who has 110/60 and relies oin a balloon to patch one huge weakness.
Landorus-I and Landorus-T should share the category. I opt the two for A+ because the two are very effective.

I think that Dragonite should move up to A+.

I suggest dropping Excadrill but given that it's A I don't think its needed. But I remind one things: there's a lot of difference getween Gen V and Gen VI: the speeed difference is very notable. In Gen V it was very easy to use A SD, in Gen VI not anymore. 88 speed at +0 are "average" or even "bad" by a sweeper.

I think that because the Defog buff, the more rarity of SR, and because it can realy sweep if you let it set up Volcarona should be higher than B rank. Maybe to A or A- rank.

Espeon is not C+ in any way. 110 speed is one of the better speed tier that exist right now, 130 Base Special Attack is one of the best non-Mega Special stats available, and has an ample movepool. His good is not taking hits (although you can take a special if needed, exception of the obvious ones). A B- rank is fitting for it.

Also Salamence is too dsangerous to be C rank. It's walled by Fairies (specially Togekiss) but B rank fits the bill about being walled by some poekmon (Fairies). Also Dragonite and Salamence roles are not clones to each other. It has a niche with his two great abilities and his base 100 Speed and 110 Base Special Attack. A B or B- is fitting for it.

And about bad pokemon/Outclassed pokemon: They could be worse than pokemon ranked in higher rank, but has a key factor in them. No, I don't talk about pure crap pokemon like Farfetch'd or Raticate what we know are ridiculous. I'm talking about some species that if you don't take atttention it could cause some problems.

It's difficult that everytime that someone is entering PS everyone remember the standard set for every pokemon that can be a serious threat (and there are more than 150 (even surpass 200 threats) unless you are in the very top). Many players that play competively know what the stats of Aegislash are, what sets it can run and even how to predict because it's a top tier threat that many care inmmediatly when making a team. However, many members could forget what pokemon like Milotic does in the metagame. Team Preview says that a Milotic is appearing, not what stats have the Milotic and where is invested. But they could be instances where a skilled palyer are playhing wrong because it forgot what Milotic does and only know that is a Water and usually use Special moves. They use a Gengar Shadow Ball to defeat it easily (because it's crap) and suddenly Milotic wins by using Recover and Scald.
Could you, please, give a more in-depth analysis of the mons you suggest. And I do believe that sticking to one or two pokemon is more than enough. Writing a line or two doesn't make or break the rankings.

Also, why are you telling us about this? That doesn't change anything about the pokemon, it only shows that humankin can't remember everything. Also most of the times it's very easy to guess what they do, simply due to a vague knowledge of them.
 
That seems unfair. As a support mon, it fits the B- terms and conditions, which are...
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Donphan spins AND sets up rocks, and can phase, and does very well against physical threats, although he has trouble against set up sweepers, therefore, B- rank as a utility mon that can take a physical hit for the team when needed.
... okay, I'm gonna try to make a really definitive argument here. I firmly believe that Donphan deserves lower ranking, and I don't know why it keeps coming up.

I think this quote from Donphan's Gen 5 OU summary sums it up best;

Even though Donphan has a few useful traits, it is by no means a good Pokemon. It is widely outclassed by other spinners and finds it difficult to stay alive. Overall, Donphan is a very niche Pokemon, and should always be considered as a last resort if none of the other spinners seem to work on a team.
Other spinners (and now, defoggers,) are much better at their jobs. Why choose Donphan when you can use Latias, Excadrill, Starmie, Skarmory or Tentacruel? If you want to use Donphan, you should require the very specific qualities he provides. While this is a plausible scenario, for the vast majority of teams it is not the case. He's one of the slowest hazard removers, and his only workarounds for this speed problem are a weak Ice Shard and Sturdy (which gets broken when switching into hazards or attacks anyway.) This makes it really easy to hit him hard before he has a chance to spin or use anything other than Ice Shard. Speaking of Ice Shard, it's pretty pathetic. It can't guarantee a 2HKO on Mega Garchomp, a Pokemon that is 4x weak to the move. It generally needs to hit on a 4x weakness to do real damage, and even then it loses to common Pokemon like Gliscor and Landorus-I.

As a Spinner, Donphan has more problems with Spinblockers than really any other spinner. While Aegislash cannot switch in on Earthquake, it can take one in Shield forme and smack back hard with Shadow Ball, which will likely result in a KO if followed up by a Shadow Sneak (it depends on the exact set and investment, and whether or not Donphan has prior damage in some cases.) Gengar, a frail Ghost, takes a whopping 31.2% max from Ice Shard, though it does fear Knock Off. It then smacks back hard with Shadow Ball. Sableye, Jellicent, Gourgeist and Trevenant all have the ability to block Donphan as well, though Gourgeist and Trevenant do have to watch out a bit for Ice Shard. Yes, Donphan has access to the buffed Knock Off, but if any of these guys get in, you're probably not getting it off without being crippled in return.

Any arguments that Donphan is not severely outclassed are outright wrong. As an offensive spinner, Excadrill is flat-out better. No, Excadrill does not have the bulk of Donphan. Unsurprisingly, this is because Excadrill is not meant to be a bulky spinner. It has a stronger Earthquake that can hit Levitate mons like Rotom-W and Gengar, better Speed that can go through the roof with Sand Rush (yeah, that's still a thing,) a boosting move in Swords Dance and equal to better coverage. It can run a Balloon to remove its Ground weakness, while Donphan doesn't have an item that can remove its weakness to Grass, Water, Ice or special attacks in general. The best it can do is throw on an Assault Vest, which removes its ability to set up Stealth Rock or Roar. Some teams will prefer Starmie or Latias in more offensive roles, and they too are basically flat-out better than Donphan. On the defensive end of the spectrum, Skarmory is in many ways an upgrade to Donphan with better typing and bulk. Tentacruel has much better Speed and typing, better support options and can even take on a few physical attackers (notably Azumarill,) despite not being built for it.

It's hard to ignore Donphan's weaknesses when looking at it. It's typing really doesn't offer much, giving it two resistances (Rock and Poison,) and one immunity (Electric,) in exchange for three weaknesses (Ice, Grass and Water.) It's one immunity doesn't help it much when the most common user of Electric moves, Rotom-W, will happily Hydro Pump it into oblivion. Rock is a neat resistance, but not overwhelmingly useful, whereas a Poison resistance is barely a resistance at all. Meanwhile, those weaknesses are troublesome. Grass isn't common, but does have big names in Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn, both of whom will happily set up on you. Water and Ice are both as big as ever, with powerful users of both types of moves around every corner. Perhaps more troublesome are the lack of resistances, though. Because of this, basically any decent special attack will OHKO Donphan so long as Sturdy is gone, while stronger physical hits will still break through since Donphan won't be resisting them. Since Donphan relies on EQ, a weak Ice Shard and often one more offensive move, he's also often setup bait for lots of powerful mons.

Does it have a place in the metagame? Sure. It won't excel at any one job, but it can pull off a small niche here or there despite overwhelming weaknesses and problems with outclassing. Your team really needs his traits though, otherwise there are several better options available. As such, let's look at those rank definitions again;

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
C Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.
Donphan can spin and set up SR while providing limited offensive pressure and maybe a support move or two. Most spinners and defoggers fit this bill much better than Donphan, and as such it is C-Rank at best. It's really only worth it if you need his specific coverage (ie. Earthquake,) and are willing to put up with his flaws, which are very crippling. Because he has such prominent flaws, D-Rank seems more fitting.

I'll reiterate my stance as Blacklisting Donphan and placing him in either C or D Rank. I'm leaning more towards D, but either or seems reasonable for me. I think this post captures the basic premise behind why Donphan isn't very useful in the current metagame, and I haven't seen good arguments for his placement being higher. I don't want to say not to argue against me, because I like debate, but the point stands that I think we've said everything there is to say about Donphan. If there's something new or unheard of someone wants to bring to the table that's relevant, I'm all ears. If I said something that's flat-out wrong, let me know. Otherwise I think we're good on Donphan for now.
 
I would say C- Rank for Donphan. It has a niche, bit it's still outclassed and generally not very good outside of Assault Vest bulky spinner.

Also seconding the notion of Blacklisting it once a tier is decided.
 
I don't understand how Kabutops is a C Rank when Kingdra and Ludicolo, who are both just as good swift swimmers, aren't even ranked. With that being said, I nominate both Kingdra and Ludicolo for C Rank.

Also, on the matter of Donphan, I believe that it does have a niche, small as it may be, as a defensive spinner that can also set up rocks. Sure, Excadrill can do it better most of the time due to its sheer offensive presence and Mold Breaker, however, I have seen many Donphan take advantage of their physical defense as well, which is something Excadrill doesnt have. While Donphan cant be thrown on any team, it can perform multiple roles well (tank, spinner, and stealth rock), therefore, turning two team spots into one, which is critical for some teams. When used properly on the correct team I think Donphan deserves a C or C+ Rank just for this alone.
 
Not the best at OU but how come Trevanant dropped to C rank from B?

Also, where would Shaymin rank? I actually kinda like it more than Celebi but since I'm in the 1300's for OU that's not really an accurate tell on the metagame.
 
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Why choose Donphan when you can use Latias, Excadrill, Starmie, Skarmory or Tentacruel? If you want to use Donphan, you should require the very specific qualities he provides.
U gave urself the answer here. Donphan has some very specific traites and is used on teams that require exactly those traites. Otherwise using him doesnt make much sense does it?

While this is a plausible scenario, for the vast majority of teams it is not the case.
if thats true, how do u explain donphans high usage? I somewhat doubt that its mere popularity like in charizards case during the last 5 gens...

He's one of the slowest hazard removers, and his only workarounds for this speed problem are a weak Ice Shard and Sturdy (which gets broken when switching into hazards or attacks anyway.) This makes it really easy to hit him hard before he has a chance to spin or use anything other than Ice Shard. Speaking of Ice Shard, it's pretty pathetic. It can't guarantee a 2HKO on Mega Garchomp, a Pokemon that is 4x weak to the move. It generally needs to hit on a 4x weakness to do real damage, and even then it loses to common Pokemon like Gliscor and Landorus-I.
His physical bulk gives him plenty of opportunitys to set sr or spin. Honestly he can switch in on almost every physical threat take the hit and do what he wants afterwards. He doesnt need any speed. As long as u dont try to spin on keldeo without sturdy ready u can be pretty sure that he will get his job done.

Any arguments that Donphan is not severely outclassed are outright wrong. As an offensive spinner, Excadrill is flat-out better. No, Excadrill does not have the bulk of Donphan. Unsurprisingly, this is because Excadrill is not meant to be a bulky spinner.
Thats kinda ironic. That exacdrill lacks donphans bulk is fine because "he is not meant to be a bulky spinner". Did it never cross ur mind that donphan is not meant to be an offensive spinner and therefore cant be outclassed by excadrill? Its the exact same argument.
That whole discussion here leaves me with the impression that most ppl here think every spinner has to be an offensive one and that there is nothing else.

Ur totaly right, as an offensive spinner, excadrill outclasses donphan by far. But as a (physicaly)defensive spinner its donphan who outclasses excadrill by far. So depending of what kind of spinner u want u should go for one or the other. I guess most ppl prefer offensiv spinners for their teams but that doesnt mean that every spinner needs to be an offensive one.
The point about spin blockers is true, donphan cant do much against the more defensive ones like trev and ghourgeist. But lets be blunt here, how many of them are u facing when laddering? Personally i have seen like ~3 trevs and 0 ghourgeist so far and the usage statistics say pretty much the same. So those two arent realy an issue to donphans viability. If they were widely used they would limit donphans viability alot, but they arent.

By putting an air balloon exca sacrifices dmg/recovery just to patch up his crippling weakness. Donphan doesnt have to do that an can use lefties for much needed recovery. Since water, grass and ice are special 90% of the time there would be no point in giving him an item to remove those weaknesses because, i cant stretch that point enough, donphan isnt supposed to take special hits. So no, putting on an assault vest is certainly not the best thing to do especially because u cant use rocks with it and with that ur losing one of the main reasons to use donphan in the first place. If i just want spin i would rather go for tentacruel of mega blastoise or one of the countless defog users.

The point with skarm and defog users in general is, at least for me, that i dont want to remove my own hazards and i dont want to give bisharp free boosts so they are out of the question for me and i assume that there are alot of ppl out there who think the same way. If skarm got rapidspin i guess i would use him over donphan, but he doesnt.

What u say about its typing is true, it doesnt offer much in terms of resists and has 3 weaknesses of which 2 are quite common. But as mentioned before, all 3 weaknesses are special 90% of the time there are only very few physical attacks out there that hit donphan SE and everything that doesnt hit him on his special side or is SE does very little dmg to him allowing him to switch in on almost every physical threat there is and either threaten it out or setup hazards/spin in front of it.


Overall his niche is the combination of SR setting, rapidspinning and physical bulk and the only other mon that brings those 3 traites to the table is Forretress which is at C rank. Since i personally think that donphan is better because he has more options at his disposal i would place him at least at C if not C+. To put him at D Rank id like to hear some good reasons why Forretress is that much better than donphan to give it C rank while he only gets D.
 
Ok guys for fucks sake, you can't nominate pokes to be blacklisted. But seeing as how all everyone does is bring donphan up and hate on it, it will probably be blacklisted anyways, even though I fail to see how excadrill comepletly outclassed it. But I digress

Anyone use much kyurem black lately? I'm thinking its a solid A+ or EVEN S. Literally everything has been going good for kyub this gen. Fighting types are no longer the dominant force and the metagame has slowed down comepletly. And kyurem does one job better than almost any poke in the game. Breaking stall. Unlike crobat, who stops stall almost elegantly, kyurem black literally decks stall in the face with a hammer. The fairies hardly have effected kyurem besides gardevoir and sylveon, and I think the fact that a mon that single handily counters a quickly becoming common playstyle is a huge merit, and it honestly doesn't require that much team support in the first place
 
holy shit shut the fuck up about donphan already
This type of comment is not helping either the topic, thread, or yourself. Donphan is a perfectly usable pokemon in this Gen and tiering so far, and labeling him useless outright is a folly no one should make right away. Access to a wider move pool than Excadrill gives him a small edge in catching some off-guard. I know, it is not much. But with his perfectly viable bulk, and offensive stats as well, he fits fine into any team who needs what he offers. If you prefer Excadrill, or Gliscor, or whatever, so be it. I have used a Donphan to sweep teams before, and I will in the future. It happens, not everyone here is a god when it comes to strategy; and due to that fact, even with all of the arguing, pokemon such as Donphan have survived in usage because they are a solid choice. He sees more use than many others whom I have seen listed, so I'd say let the talks resume until we can intelligently come to some sort of agreement on his placement.
 
I don't understand how Kabutops is a C Rank when Kingdra and Ludicolo, who are both just as good swift swimmers, aren't even ranked. With that being said, I nominate both Kingdra and Ludicolo for C Rank.

Also, on the matter of Donphan, I believe that it does have a niche, small as it may be, as a defensive spinner that can also set up rocks. Sure, Excadrill can do it better most of the time due to its sheer offensive presence and Mold Breaker, however, I have seen many Donphan take advantage of their physical defense as well, which is something Excadrill doesnt have. While Donphan cant be thrown on any team, it can perform multiple roles well (tank, spinner, and stealth rock), therefore, turning two team spots into one, which is critical for some teams. When used properly on the correct team I think Donphan deserves a C or C+ Rank just for this alone.
I have no experience with Ludicolo, but Kingdra definitely deserves better than C rank, as it is by far the best swift swim abuser. Give it specs and, with rain support, you basically have specs and scarf Latios in one, plus water STAB and better defensive typing. With six or seven turns of rain to abuse from damp rock Politoed, Kingdra can easily wreck teams. I would say B or B+.

I agree with Kyurem-B to A+, this thing absolutely wrecks stall. It also can be pretty effective against offense - with its amazing bulk, it gets plenty of chances to toss out powerful attacks even with its disappointing speed. Basically, if you can get Kyube in safely, something is going to die, no matter what playstyle you're facing.
 
Thing is, nowadays being a spinner+sr setter doesn't accout for much anymore, especially since the buff on defog. Look at the spinners/defoggers we have today.

Scizor/Mega Scizor has decent recovery options, nice set of resistances to pull its bulk, has a 60 bp priority coming off from huge atk stat and can do a slow pivot.

Latias' and Latios' has Ground immunity whilst not being weak to SR, Roost, their Draco Meteor hurts like heck, and sits at a relatively good speed tier. Both mons also have multiple sets that are viable.

Mandibuzz sports impressive bulk coupled with good recovery options, an immunity to Ground type, and a plethora of support moves. Most important thing is that she craps all over Aegislash, an S-rank threat atm.

Skarmory is skarmory, no discussion required on that.

Excadrill boasts a mold breaker EQ that destroys the most used mon atm in OU and sets its own SR, while providing decent offensive pressure.

Starmie is still a decent offensive spinner with its coverage plus analytic life-orb boosted attacks.

And then there's Donphan, who can guarantee a spin before dying and maybe set up rocks when needed.

See my point here? Every other spinner/defogger has something going on for them other than hazards-related stuff. Donphan has none in the sense that anything it can offer other than its EQs are half-assed.
 
I would say C- Rank for Donphan. It has a niche, bit it's still outclassed and generally not very good outside of Assault Vest bulky spinner.

Also seconding the notion of Blacklisting it once a tier is decided.
I agree with this decision. Further discussion on donphan has proved fruitless.

I also agree with the C rank. B would have been pushing it.
 
Donphan for C+/B-

Bulky spinner vs. excadrill is an offensive spinner = different niches
As bulky as hippowdon
EQ and knock off help it beat most common spin blockers: aegi and gengar, cripples the rest with knock off
Has trouble with trevenant but so does excadrill
Knock off is an amazing move, eases prediction and helps chip at rotom-W

It's not that bad.

D rank is hilariously wrong.
 
Donphan for C+/B-

Bulky spinner vs. excadrill is an offensive spinner = different niches
As bulky as hippowdon
EQ and knock off help it beat most common spin blockers: aegi and gengar, cripples the rest with knock off
Has trouble with trevenant but so does excadrill
Knock off is an amazing move, eases prediction and helps chip at rotom-W

It's not that bad.

D rank is hilariously wrong.
Please...
 
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