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I propose Clefable moving up to A+. I have trashed entire teams, teams of all stripes, because playing against it is like seeing a charizard mega- depending on its moveset, ability and stat distribution, it can run sets ranging from defensive to sweeping to wallbreaking, and responding to any given set requires a completely different strategy. As an example, I run the following set:
Clefable@leftovers
Magic Guard
Bold
252 HP, 252 Def, 4 Sp. Attack
Cosmic Power
Charge Beam
Softboiled
Stored Power
Is this set walled by bulky dark types like Tyranitar? Yes. Is it vulnerable to setup sweepers, especially things like Scizor and SD Aegislash? Absolutely! Is it also weak to common threats like Scizor bullet punches and M-Venusaur sludge bombs? And screwed by phasing? Absolutely, and those are partly reasons that it isn't an S-rank threat. However, dealing with that Clefable set is entirely different from dealing with other common sets, especially unaware sets. This is where the "M-Charizard" factor comes in- people will often throw things like Ferrothorn or Chansey and try to status my Clefable, thinking it's unaware; if that happens, I have at least 3 Cosmic Power boosts by the time they switch to a better response. This set sweeps teams; I've come back from 5-0 and 6-0 even. The best way to deal with it is to set up, but then again if it's unaware Clefable then setting up could be like throwing Chansey at a M-Charizard X. You have to make a gamble, and if you respond wrong you lose a lot of momentum at best and at worst you've handed the game away. It's not the best wall, or the best sweeper, but its versatility and excellent typing allow it to function in any role. It's been the all-star of my semistall team, and anything less than A+ is underselling the threat that Clefable presents to teams from stall to HO.
I totally agree with your ranking, although I believe the Calm Mind is more threatening. It makes physical Poison/Steel attacks basically a necessity; it's impossible, at least to me, to build a good OU team without closely considering how you can handle Clefable. I truly would push it for S, but I'm not sure it's quite that level. A+ for sure.
I totally agree with your ranking, although I believe the Calm Mind is more threatening. It makes physical Poison/Steel attacks basically a necessity; it's impossible, at least to me, to build a good OU team without closely considering how you can handle Clefable. I truly would push it for S, but I'm not sure it's quite that level. A+ for sure.
I would argue S as well, but I'm not sure others would agree. In any case, while in theory CM is definitely more threatening, the surprise value and the speed at which the set I run becomes all but unstoppable makes it really deadly in practice. That's what makes it an A+, if not S, rank threat- guess the set wrong and there's a very good chance you're gonna have a bad time.
Yeah, Excadrill with Rapid Spin is definitely more useful than Emp with Defog. For one thing, the popular ghost types in OU (Aegis, Gengar) can't switch in on Excadrill fearing a MoldBreaker Earthquake. I just don't know what useful niche Emp has in OU right now that isn't covered by Excadrill, Skarmory, Ferrothorn or the other bulky waters in the tier.
Srn9130 + Sergeant Spooky
Azumarill cannot run all of Play Rough / Waterfall / Aqua Jet / Knock Off / Superpower though, so it's undoubtedly going to be walled by one or the other. And not to mention M-Venusaur walls any sets, like any:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is Azumarill's best option against M-Venusaur and even when M-Venusaur doesn't invest in Defense it is only 3HKO'ed. I don't know, really, I just have a firm belief that Azumarill is A, I'm just not impressed with it.
Well, Kingdra and Kabutops are pretty impossible to justify unless you're running a rain team. Chansey is pretty hard to justify if you're running a HO team. No shit, Quagsire is bad if you're using it on an offensive team, so use it on a defensive team where it can contribute to its team lol.
That's the thing though, it accomplishes next to nothing on a stall team. It can switch in on certain setup sweepers and then gets forced out right after by any moderately powerful special attacker. Clefable is by far the better Unaware user in OU because it can support the team with Heal Bell, Wish or Stealth Rock, Quagsire is flatout outclassed. This applies to stall teams as well. Also your comparisons are flawed as Kingdra and Kabutops are mandatory for rain teams while Chansey is mandatory for Stall, in the sense that they're too good not to be used. Quagsire is very niche and generally performs poorly.
Srn9130 + Sergeant Spooky
Azumarill cannot run all of Play Rough / Waterfall / Aqua Jet / Knock Off / Superpower though, so it's undoubtedly going to be walled by one or the other. And not to mention M-Venusaur walls any sets, like any:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is Azumarill's best option against M-Venusaur and even when M-Venusaur doesn't invest in Defense it is only 3HKO'ed. I don't know, really, I just have a firm belief that Azumarill is A, I'm just not impressed with it.
That's the thing though, it accomplishes next to nothing on a stall team. It can switch in on certain setup sweepers and then gets forced out right after by any moderately powerful special attacker. Clefable is by far the better Unaware user in OU because it can support the team with Heal Bell, Wish or Stealth Rock, Quagsire is flatout outclassed. This applies to stall teams as well. Also your comparisons are flawed as Kingdra and Kabutops are mandatory for rain teams while Chansey is mandatory for Stall, in the sense that they're too good not to be used. Quagsire is very niche and generally performs poorly.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 246-289 (62.4 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 320-377 (81.2 - 95.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
There's 2 common set-up sweepers off the top of my head that stall can't afford to lose to, and Clef fails at handling both. Quaggy isn't really outclassed by Clef. Clef is technically better overall, but Quag generally handles the physical side of things better than Clef can, which gives them different hole patching abilities on a stall team.
Srn9130 + Sergeant Spooky
Azumarill cannot run all of Play Rough / Waterfall / Aqua Jet / Knock Off / Superpower though, so it's undoubtedly going to be walled by one or the other. And not to mention M-Venusaur walls any sets, like any:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 94-112 (25.8 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 126-150 (41.8 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
This is Azumarill's best option against M-Venusaur and even when M-Venusaur doesn't invest in Defense it is only 3HKO'ed. I don't know, really, I just have a firm belief that Azumarill is A, I'm just not impressed with it.
So that means there are two solid answers (I run knock off, so let's assume that aegislash isn't the safe one) to azumarill: Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. I'd probably like to add skarmory but
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
it actually get's 2HKO'd after rocks. It comes pretty close, but not up to par.
So there are two solid answers to a wallbreaker. One of which isn't even always safe.
And you're still saying it should only be A?????
There are some terrifying wallbreakers out there, I definitely understand that, but having just 2 counters for such a bulky pokemon, with access to priority, and some versatile sets with good defensive typing is fantastic.
After all, every pokemon has a counter right? The ones that don't are in Ubers :P
The thing is, most set-up sweepers are physical, and clefable isn't that bulky on the physcial side. Quagsire, on the other hand, is much more physcialy bulky. This is why Quagsire is preferred as the unaware user, and Clefable is better with
A Magic Guard + Calm Mind Set.
Also, Why are people saying Quagsire cant do anything? It can Toxic stall almost all physcial attackers, (Bar Steel types and Breloom) with its access to recover.
also quagsire isn't that much more physically bulky, Clefable has 95/73 bulk compared to Quagsire's 95/85 bulk. Clefable also has a much better defensive typing
also quagsire isn't that much more physically bulky, Clefable has 95/73 bulk compared to Quagsire's 95/85 bulk. Clefable also has a much better defensive typing
I want gengar in A rank. It has tremendous coverage, and is one of the best abusers of sub. SubTauntWisp,SubWisp,SubDisable,SubSplit, are all things gengar can do with a sub. It also runs life orb very well, as it has destiny bond and great coverage in 3 attacks. Another thing it can do is with a sash, it can be a suicide attacker with destiny bond as it would hit with a move, get brought down to sash, and use destiny bond. Gengar in A- is a bloody disgrace.
also quagsire isn't that much more physically bulky, Clefable has 95/73 bulk compared to Quagsire's 95/85 bulk. Clefable also has a much better defensive typing
Clefable is weak to Steel and Poison, and is immune to/resists Bug, Fighting, Dark, and Dragon. Quagsire, on the other hand, is only weak to grass, while resists/is immune to Electric, Steel, Poison, Rock, and Fire. I wouldn't say either outclasses the other, or that either has a better typing, rather, they go very well together. Quagsire handles physical attackers that Clefable can't, while also resisting Poison and Steel, while Clefable can take any grass attack and can set up on special attackers that may plague Quagsire. Yes, for all intents and purposes, Clefable is a more viable pokemon than Quagsire. But, I think that neither typically draws competition from the other. Each has its own niche that warrants use on a certain team, and both in fact work superbly together as a defensive core.
Clefable is by far the better Unaware user in OU because it can support the team with Heal Bell, Wish or Stealth Rock, Quagsire is flatout outclassed. This applies to stall teams as well.
But Unaware lets both of them check boosting sweepers, and they are relatively similar to the roles they play. Clefable basically can perform well in stall and balanced with its Fairy-typing and great support movepool (Wish, Heal Bell, Softboiled=rly good), and CM with Unaware or Magic Guard is super scury, while Quagsire does very well in stall, more so than Clefable in many cases. Quagsire has access to Scald, reliable recovery, one real weakness, useful reists + Elec immunity, and the ability to hold its own against a good chunk of the physical sweepers in the OU meta due to 95/85 physical bulk and Unaware. Clefable imo is more splashable than Quagsire as its just more than an Unaware user, Magic Guard is pretty sweet with a CM set and Moonblast unless you use Cosmic Power like a complete dingus, so I think the main reason that Clefable is ranked higher than Quagsire is that it can perform more roles than the latter, and sponge special attacks better combined with an Unaware set or Magic Guard CM, but Quagsire does a lot better against physical attackers. But, I think by no means that Quagsire is outclassed by Clefable, the two just use Unaware differently to achieve their own ends (i.e. Quagsire spreadin Scalds like a boss, Clefable being a cleric or stopping most Dragon or Fighting-type sweepers). They have the same concept, but use it to do different things.
So that means there are two solid answers (I run knock off, so let's assume that aegislash isn't the safe one) to azumarill: Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. I'd probably like to add skarmory but
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
it actually get's 2HKO'd after rocks. It comes pretty close, but not up to par.
So there are two solid answers to a wallbreaker. One of which isn't even always safe.
And you're still saying it should only be A?????
There are some terrifying wallbreakers out there, I definitely understand that, but having just 2 counters for such a bulky pokemon, with access to priority, and some versatile sets with good defensive typing is fantastic.
After all, every pokemon has a counter right? The ones that don't are in Ubers :P
Umm, you guys completely missed my point. It can be walled by one or the other. I didn't say it should move to A for having few counters, Terrakion has few counters, but it isn't A+. The other reasons I believe it should move down is because it has to rely on Aqua Jet to avoid being hit by anything, which often does not work very well.
And for reference, a small list of checks:
Thundurus
Can survive an Aqua Jet (even after SR) and OHKO with Thunderbolt after SR.
Aegislash
I list Aegislash because Azumarill is going to have to attack, meaning if you use King's Shield than Aegislash reliably beats Azumarill. However Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak kills, but since it is faster than Azumarill it will be hit while in Blade form, so.
Charizard-X
DD Char-X can OHKO a weakened Azumarill with Flare Blitz at +1, while bulky sets threaten it with Will-O-Wisp.
Charizard Y
Kills off with Solar Beam while living an Aqua Jet, while also severely weakening Azumarill's Water STABs.
Mega Pinsir - VERY SHAKY!
Ok, so, surprisingly, M-Pinsir lives a Play Rough with .4%, so it is very much weakened and cannot have taken any damage. But Return + QA will kill it. However this is a very shaky check but can be a last resort.
These are just the S-Ranks but they all 'check' it. However, it all depends on what move Azumarill is locked into, as most Choice Users suffer from. It absolutely needs either Choice Band or BD to be powerful, but with Choice Band you have a plethora of free switch ins and with BD you are weakened and anything faster that resists Aqua Jet can take you on. Just one example:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 222-261 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yes, I'm using M-Venusaur, because it does a phenomenal job. But Azumarill has very many Checks / Counters depending on which move it is locked into. Now don't get me wrong, Azumarill is a very good Pokemon! It's hard to switch into, very powerful, and has a nice typing! I just have found that Electric- and Grass-types are the bane of Azumarill and it is just too slow :/.
[soooo sorry if I made any stupid mistakes, I'm very tired u.u]
someone mentioned empoleon being d-ranked and that is laughable; empoleon is actually quite an interesting pokemon and i am in awe that people are looking down upon it. its typing allows it to be an offensive greninja check while being a steel which can only be matched by ferrothorn who makes offensive teams lose momentum and falls to hp fire greninja. agility emp is actually pretty viable lol. agility / hydro / ice beam / knock off or grass knot or sub or w/e is pretty nifty. it's not an easily splashable pokemon by any means, but it has a unique offensive niche, so i'd say it's b- or c+ for sure.
someone mentioned empoleon being d-ranked and that is laughable; empoleon is actually quite an interesting pokemon and i am in awe that people are looking down upon it. its typing allows it to be an offensive greninja check while being a steel which can only be matched by ferrothorn who makes offensive teams lose momentum and falls to hp fire greninja. agility emp is actually pretty viable lol. agility / hydro / ice beam / knock off or grass knot or sub or w/e is pretty nifty. it's not an easily splashable pokemon by any means, but it has a unique offensive niche, so i'd say it's b- or c+ for sure.
The reason Empoleon was nominated for D-Rank is because it was rejected for an analysis. Until the OU qc team decides to give Empoleon another shot for an analysis, D-Rank is the highest rank it can be.
Umm, you guys completely missed my point. It can be walled by one or the other. I didn't say it should move to A for having few counters, Terrakion has few counters, but it isn't A+. The other reasons I believe it should move down is because it has to rely on Aqua Jet to avoid being hit by anything, which often does not work very well.
And for reference, a small list of checks:
Thundurus
Can survive an Aqua Jet (even after SR) and OHKO with Thunderbolt after SR.
Aegislash
I list Aegislash because Azumarill is going to have to attack, meaning if you use King's Shield than Aegislash reliably beats Azumarill. However Shadow Ball + Shadow Sneak kills, but since it is faster than Azumarill it will be hit while in Blade form, so.
Charizard-X
DD Char-X can OHKO a weakened Azumarill with Flare Blitz at +1, while bulky sets threaten it with Will-O-Wisp.
Charizard Y
Kills off with Solar Beam while living an Aqua Jet, while also severely weakening Azumarill's Water STABs.
Mega Pinsir - VERY SHAKY!
Ok, so, surprisingly, M-Pinsir lives a Play Rough with .4%, so it is very much weakened and cannot have taken any damage. But Return + QA will kill it. However this is a very shaky check but can be a last resort.
These are just the S-Ranks but they all 'check' it. However, it all depends on what move Azumarill is locked into, as most Choice Users suffer from. It absolutely needs either Choice Band or BD to be powerful, but with Choice Band you have a plethora of free switch ins and with BD you are weakened and anything faster that resists Aqua Jet can take you on. Just one example:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 222-261 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Yes, I'm using M-Venusaur, because it does a phenomenal job. But Azumarill has very many Checks / Counters depending on which move it is locked into. Now don't get me wrong, Azumarill is a very good Pokemon! It's hard to switch into, very powerful, and has a nice typing! I just have found that Electric- and Grass-types are the bane of Azumarill and it is just too slow :/.
[soooo sorry if I made any stupid mistakes, I'm very tired u.u]
Aegislash and Charizard X (Bulky Version in particular) are the only real decent checks among the 5 S-Ranks if the Calculator is not lying to me.
Thundurus can't switch in on anything except Superpower. If it switches in on Aqua Jet it'll only be able to Thunder Wave before dying unless it lucks out on Paralyze working.
Charizard Y even in sun can get wrecked by Azumarill's Water STABs because of its low Defense and the ever threat if SR.
Aegislash and Charizard X (Bulky Version in particular) are the only real decent checks among the 5 S-Ranks if the Calculator is not lying to me.
Thundurus can't switch in on anything except Superpower. If it switches in on Aqua Jet it'll only be able to Thunder Wave before dying unless it lucks out on Paralyze working.
Charizard Y even in sun can get wrecked by Azumarill's Water STABs because of its low Defense and the ever threat if SR.
I can't speak for thundurus; however, from personal experience, Charizard-Y almost always beats azu 1 on 1. It can't switch in on waterfall, but aquajet only does about 1/2 and solarbeam OHKOs; Best case scenario for Azu is Charizard losing half health because no way does Azu ever outspeed. This is assuming Charizard not actually switching into Azumarill, but who in their right mind would do that?
I see some non-sense int he list. I want to explain the cases of pokemon of rejected analysis, his usage (in the 1760 Stats)
Arcanine (106th in the stats) More borderline, but fine. More outclassed (Entei, Darmanitan,etc) than ineffective.
Azelf I think deserves an analysis as a C poke. it has its uses like a deoxys-S liemk user with more Special Attack and Attack, and U-turn.
Donphan (56th in the 1760 stats) It's hated to death but has it's uses. Excadrill is less bulky and MBlastoise (the best defensive spinner) is incompatible with two of the main treats of spinning (Charizard and Pinsir)
Empoleon Too much. Has n unique typing that make resist at all, Defog while resisting SR, SR by restore them to hte opponent, offensive presence if invested, the Agility set with LO/Petaya Berry.
Florges fine, but note: it's not that it's bad, is because it's 100% outclaseed with Sylveon with Pixilate Hyper voice and very move that Florges has.
Forretress (80st in thye 1760 stats) Has its uses on stall team. Has lost his main niche this gen but has it's uses. Also, it can use a potent Gyro Ball.
Heliolisk More bordelrine, but fine.
Honchkrow I see uses for him, in all honestly. No more than D rank.
Jellicent Is Jellicent that ineffective to not get an analysis? Defog has nerfed it a bit, Water is not that common, but I see uses dealing with common threats.
Jirachi (88th in the 1760 Stats) I can't believe that a pokemon that was S rank for two generations got nerfed bad this gen that is not being ranked now. True, getting those weakness is hard,
Jolteon (85th in the 1760 stats) Fine. Although remember that Manectric requires a Mega slot and has it's uses.
Metagross (98th in the 1760 stats) Has its uses, but I admit that is fine to reject it. However, it has an AV vest thset that is good for him.
Meowstic-M Mor ebordelrine, but fine.
Mienshao What? Why is that outclassed. I don't see a Fighting type with Knock Off + U-turn and not being really putclassed by anything.
Tentacruel (62nd in the 1760 stats) it loses one of the mayor niches with Rain out, but I still see uses as a bulky water in the special set.
Trevenant. (79th in the 1760 stats) Is really going to be rejected? (it got an analysis). I don't see how is that bad. I used mainly A and B rank Pokemon and I used to have problem with this thing It's relies on luck a bit, but has its uses.
Porygon2 at 91st in the 1760 stats: This appear to be usable If that thing is not viable, I know why.
Swampert in the 112st. I don't see even suggested but it gets this position where accepted threats are here.
I see things you are a bit ridiculous in my opinion.
Don't suggest Depoxys fopr S rank. 33 and 34 position 8with No Megastone involves) doesn't deserve this.
Right aboiut Manapohy droppoing. 39 in the stats and having a few uses.
Rotom-W are 2 and Latios are 12. This pokemon should be in A+ rank. Terrakion are 43 and Hippowdon are 44. I understand the former being A but the latter?
Conkeldurr is in 15th and Skarmory on 16th They deserve A by usage. Even Chansey and Dragonite deserves A given usage.
What is doing Gliscor in B+ rank when it's 22. I have suffered a lot against it. And Sylveon are borderline deserving more. I understand the rest except Kabutops. What's doing him in 115 position? Unlike Kingdra and Tornadus-T, it's unviable outside Rain teams.
B rank is one fot he rank with less problems. MManectric (47), Quagsire (49) and Scolipede (52) could deserves B+ rank, though.
B- ranks has Breloom (40) which is debatabkle. But I'm sure Togekiss doesn't deserve that low ranking (41). Roserade (122) and Zygarde (152) are getting so high rating for the usage they are getting.
C+ rank. Espeon and Blissey doesn't deserve C rank. The formner because exceptional utility with Magic Bounce, the latter by tanking special walls as well as Chansey and taking passive damage better. I doubt hat gourgeist (small and XL), Abomasnow (even with Mega) deserves this rank.
C rank. Infernape and Smeargle are overrated but deserves more than C+ rank. Also, Ditto and Magnezone (and Porygon2 is borderline) could deserve higher rank. And what is doing Escavalier (195) and Moltres (253) in such rank?
C- rank. Cloyster are in this rank because it can do this role, deserving more than this ranking with the 67th position.
D rank. What are Tentacruel, Trevenant, Jirachi and Jellicent doing in this rank? I don't see how some of C rank are really better than those pokemon.
56 Donphan This show that hating it is "wrong" in part. Sorry, but Excadrill not outclassed Donphan with those weakness. Hippowdon don't have Rapid Spin in his movepool, and MBlastoise is incompatible with some of the heavy user of Spinning. C or C- rank.
64 Hydreigon Why this don't have a ranking at all?
78 Amoonguss Same with Hydreigon, and I expect a similar ranking for both.
84 Umbreon This is viable, guiys. STAB Foul Play + those defenses?
85 Jolteon here I agree for being outclassed completely by MManectric and Raikou.
86 Gothitelle Shadow tag is a GOD abiulity. This should be ranked somewhere.
92 Gastrodon There's no permarain but this poke has strong niches that can be featured in the metagame.
98 Metagross Assault Vest (the best set) and Agility has a use in OU Being inmune to status drop is a greart thing.
99 Florges I agree for being outclassed completely by Sylveon.
101 Cresselia One of the bestmixed wall in the game, movepool like anybody,
106 Arcanine Here I agree.
108 Reuniclus This should be ranked somewhere in the list.
110 Haxorus Ssme as Reuniclus. Fairies don't counter it.
121 Mienshao I think this deserves at least a C- rank. Reckless Hi Jump Kicks,or Regenerator + U-turn + HJK + KNock Off is too good to pass up.
130 Hawlucha I imagine if that's BL the bird should get a chance in OU ranking.
147 Slowking Outclassed partially by Slowbro but has its uses, specially for Nasty Plot, which Slowbro can't do.
