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Tornadus-T doesn't have Prankster. It's also slower than Greninja (by, get this, ONE point) and OHKOed. Tornadus-I can at least set up Tailwind or Rain Dance against lead Greninja, Sableye, or even Thundurus with HP Ice since said Thundurus is slower than Tornadus-I by one point, It can also set up against Choice Scarfers.
Just going to pass by and drop an opinion that many people have talked about before, and I believe is a Pokemon we should finish discussing, once and for all. The discussion is about Mega Gyarados moving to S Rank.
I'm going to do a review of Mega Gyarados similar to the one I did about Tornadus-T in the UU Viability Thread. If you do not know how I do it, I go through the Pokemon's ability, movepool, typing, stats, a few calculations, and most importantly, design, as in-depth as I can.
Ability: Mega Gyarados/Gyarados already have great Abilities. Intimidate let's Gyarados lower a Pokemon's attack that significantly increases Gyarados' defence, and can also be used in a support your team throughout the game by switching in and out. Moxie gives Gyarados the capability of getting an attack boost by killing something weakened from a team member, although Intimidate is usually the superior option when using Mega Gyarados. Speaking of which, Mega Gyarados has a great ability in Mold Breaker allowing it to break through Pokemon like Rotom-W who would otherwise wall Gyarados. Overall it's safe to say Gyarados has great abilities, and none of them should be overlooked.
Movepool: This is Gyarados' main weak point. Gyarados has an awful movepool, the best moves it gets are Dragon Dance, Waterfall, Earthquake, Ice Fang, Stone Edge, and Bounce. Aqua Tail may be slightly stronger than Waterfall, but the miss and the flinch chance makes it much better then Aqua Tail. Fortunately, for Gyarados, it's Mega Evolution's ability allows it to bypass Pokemon otherwise walling it including Mega Venusaur, Rotom-W, and also kill Sturdy mons with a single hit. Therefore, although Gyarados' movepool may be horrible, it has just the right moves to make it's Mega Form extremely effective.
Typing: One of Gyarados' best selling points lies in it's amazing typing. Even if your opponent knows Gyarados is a Mega, they never know when you will Mega Evolve. Water/Flying and Water/Dark are pretty bad typing separately, but Gyarados plays mind games and a bunch of other shit with it's opponent, it can take Fighting, Fairy, Dark, Ghost, Rock, and many more types better than it's other form, making Gyarados/Mega Gyarados' typing one of a kind, it lets Gyarados play enough mind games to the point where it could be game over.
Stats: Remarkable. It's one of the best things to say about Mega Gyarados' stats (And also something from DP Anime). It's base stats are: 95 HP / 155 Atk / 109 Def / 70 SpAtk / 130 SpDef / 81 Spe
The bulk is incredible, 95/109/130 paired with Intimidate it makes Mega Gyarados' bulk 95/170+/130! That's some amazing bulk for a sweeper. Not only that, it has a ridiculous attack stat of 155, breaking through walls quite easily. The only subpar stat it has is it's Speed, but it can get through this problem with it's boosting move Dragon Dance, with one boost and Adamant Nature, it outspeeds base 128s (With Jolly it outspeeds base 135s or so), and makes it's attack reach incredible levels. Mega Gyarados' is has easily one of the best BST's(With Intimidate) in OU.
Calculations:
All calcs are done with a +1 boost.
Offensive Calculations
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 224-264 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 328-387 (109.3 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 288-340 (88.8 - 104.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 374-442 (125.5 - 148.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-D: 162-192 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 246-290 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 556-656 (155.3 - 183.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Defensive Calculations (Done with Intimidate, calcs are here to show that Mega Gyarados can setup easily on the mon, and show it's remarkable bulk)
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 206-246 (62 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 230-272 (69.2 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 148-176 (44.5 - 53%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 178-210 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Deoxys-D Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 78-92 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- 74.5% chance to 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 222-264 (66.8 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 133-157 (40 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Design: It's essentially a Dragon. If it's shiny, it's a lobster ready to murder everything. Terrifying and sexy at the same time.
In general, I believe you get the idea of Mega Gyarados after you've read this. With it's ability, it's attacks of Waterfall/Ice Fang/Earthquake is unresisted, and it could even run EdgeQuake (Although you should never) if you wanted to. Pair that up with amazing stats that surpass even Pokemon at Ubers level, an amazing boosting move, typing that allows you to essentially wall the entire meta-game, Mega Gyarados can quite easily kill anything with help. Yes it may not be able to do a ton of damage to mons such as Mandibuzz:
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 186-220 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keep in mind, some Pokemon such as Bisharp can't break through the Pokemon either yet have the potential of being an S Rank Pokemon (Just using +1 to demonstrate) +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 188-224 (44.3 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Now I hope you understand this is why, Mega Gyarados deserves S Rank.
Mega Gyarados has some serious issues such as its rather weak primary STAB (80 BP is definitely on the "weak" side), the complete lack of a decent secondary STAB and crummy coverage moves besides Earthquake (Ice Fang is too weak and Stone Miss is Stone Miss), low speed which makes it easy to revenge kill even after a DD and being forced to set-up before being threatening. Oh and it's not a dragon. It's a huge shrimp.
With Mega Charizard X is the S-rank Dragon Dancer and thus setting the standard, Mega Gyarados can't be in the same rank.
On another note, until Baton Pass teams get nerfed I would suggest to give a promotion to each of its key team members. It's clearly a viable playstyle and they have a strong niche in the metagame right now, so there is no reason not to.
Here are my suggestions:
Scolipede -> A rank
Espeon -> A rank
Sylveon -> A rank
Vaporeon -> B rank
Smeargle -> B rank
Mr. Mime -> C rank
(Zapdos is fine where it is)
Scolipede, Espeon and Sylveon are the most important pieces so they deserve A rank, while Vaporeon and Smeargle are very useful but BP could survive without them. Mr. Mime is usually the most useless one and its only niche is to block Perish Song, so it should be the lowest.
Sylveon, Vaporeon and Mr. Mime shouldn't move up (especially the latter, because I feel that he's terrible even on BP teams). Baton Pass is centered around Scolipede and Espeon and as such they should be the only members who deserve a higher ranking because of that, the others are pretty awful if it weren't for those other two and their current rankings rightfully reflect that. Scolipede should have been at least A- all along because it can function very well outside of BP teams as well with LO + 3 attacks, SD + BP, and so on.
No, all the baton pass members should stay where they are (bar maybe Scolipede). There's no reason to use Espeon or Mr. Mime unless running Defensive BP, Sylveon is a bit too frail on the physical side, and Vaporeon is generally outclassed by Mega Gyarados and Milotic in my opinion.
On another note, until Baton Pass teams get nerfed I would suggest to give a promotion to each of its key team members. It's clearly a viable playstyle and they have a strong niche in the metagame right now, so there is no reason not to.
Here are my suggestions:
Scolipede -> A rank
Espeon -> A rank
Sylveon -> A rank
Vaporeon -> B rank
Smeargle -> B rank
Mr. Mime -> C rank
(Zapdos is fine where it is)
Scolipede, Espeon and Sylveon are the most important pieces so they deserve A rank, while Vaporeon and Smeargle are very useful but BP could survive without them. Mr. Mime is usually the most useless one and its only niche is to block Perish Song, so it should be the lowest.
Scolipede, Espeon and Sylveon definately should not be moved up (Scolipede could be but not for BP reasons). The reasons mons are moved up or down is because of how they work individually, not as part of a team. If you take an Espeon out of a BP team, its horrendous. This is completely different to all other A rank mons, who, no matter what team they're on (I know that they prefer a particular playstyle but), can fulfill a given role.
Mega Gyarados has some serious issues such as its rather weak primary STAB (80 BP is definitely on the "weak" side), the complete lack of a decent secondary STAB and crummy coverage moves besides Earthquake (Ice Fang is too weak and Stone Miss is Stone Miss), low speed which makes it easy to revenge kill even after a DD and being forced to set-up before being threatening. Oh and it's not a dragon. It's a huge shrimp.
With Mega Charizard X is the S-rank Dragon Dancer and thus setting the standard, Mega Gyarados can't be in the same rank.
I disagree, Waterfall is indeed not the strongest STAB but it is reliable and the flinch chance is nice.
The things that make Mega-Gyarados so good is it's incredible bulk+Intimidate, sky high attack, ability to complete change it's (defensive) type, turning a lot of would be checks into set up bait or O/2HKOs.
I wouldn't call it's coverage moves 'crummy' either, EQ (especially when paired with Moldbreaker) is a great move and Stone Edge or Ice Fang rounds out the coverage, while Ice Fang isnt the strongest move it does allow Gyarados to deal significant damage to Mega Venusaur, destroy Dnite and beat Garchomp.
It also has a lot of set up opportunities and very little counters at +1, short of Ferrothorn and full health Mega Venusaur, it's mediocre speed is not that big of a deal as with neutral max speed, it outspeeds every OU relevant mon outside of Deo-S and most scarfers, it actually has such good bulk that with a little prediction on when to mega it can get to +2 at which point pretty much only a prankster T-Wave can stop it's sweep.
I've played it quite a bit on HO and I have to say, it pulls it's weight and then some and is definitely worthy of being considered for S Rank, it's not nearly as versatile/unpredictable as Zard(X) but it's definitely not a worse Dragon Dancer, if anything a better one as it has way more set up opportunities and isn't weak to EQ.
Scolipede, Espeon and Sylveon definately should not be moved up (Scolipede could be but not for BP reasons). The reasons mons are moved up or down is because of how they work individually, not as part of a team. If you take an Espeon out of a BP team, its horrendous. This is completely different to all other A rank mons, who, no matter what team they're on (I know that they prefer a particular playstyle but), can fulfill a given role.
No, the reason it was ranked S was because of its unparalleled ability to guarantee SR and Spikes, along with a fast taunt. The fact that it created a new Sub-playstyle was just another point to be made. Espeon and Sylveon are substandard on anything other than BP (Sylveon has other uses but is kindof outclassed).
Lets take a look at the C ranking description.
C Rank:Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
When you think about it, Espeon requires an entire team to support it, it can only fit on that one team and has no business anywhere else, therefore C rank. In fact, by looking at the D rank description, it technically fits in there much better so Espeon for C-.
People undertake Espeon, but It has high Special attack, and decent speed. It isn't as weak as people make it sound. Plus it can provide screen support. It should not underestimated tbh. But it's still outclassed by others
IMO, by the simple fact that Toed is A- both Scolipede and Espeon should at the very least be at the same rank, because baton pass is arguably more succesful than rain and Toed is also not good as a standalone Mon and instead due to the rain he brings, since Full Baton Pass is even an arguably broken team archetype the two Mons who make BP viable should be high on the viability rank and anything else would show a bias against BP that doesn't belong in this thread, for now I would suggest Scolipede for A+ because he is very usable outside of the full BP teams making it so he needs to be ranked above both Toed and Espeon, and Espeon should be A- because like Toed he only brings support to one kind of team and is pretty bad as an stadalone mon.
People undertake Espeon, but It has high Special attack, and decent speed. It isn't as weak as people make it sound. Plus it can provide screen support. It should not underestimated tbh. But it's still outclassed by others
Yes it should, it's completely unviable for anything but full BP teams or as a dual screener (arguably outclassed in the latter role by Deo-S and Klefki), it's frail, pursuit weak, doesnt have great coverage, doesn't hit all that hard and has a poor typing both defensively as well as offensively.
Yes it should, it's completely unviable for anything but full BP teams or as a dual screener (arguably outclassed in the latter role by Deo-S and Klefki), it's frail, pursuit weak, doesnt have great coverage, doesn't hit all that hard and has a poor typing both defensively as well as offensively.
Because you know, base 130 special attack and base 110 speed is horrible. Next your gonna say Alakzam sucks to right?oh and shadow ball and dazzling gleam are horrible coverage moves(Alright there not the greatest so I kinda agree). Oh and I foroot magic bounce is a shifty ability(sarcasm)
Because you know, base 130 special attack and base 110 speed is horrible. Next your gonna say Alakzam sucks to right?oh and shadow ball and dazzling gleam are horrible coverage moves(Alright there not the greatest so I kinda agree). Oh and I foroot magic bounce is a shifty ability(sarcasm)
Those traits themselves aren't terrible. But extreme frailty (which means it can't use Magic Bounce to its full potential), terrible defensive typing, extreme weakness to Pursuit, and being largely outclassed by Alakzam and Lati@s as an offensive Psychic type mean that yes, Espeon is a horrible offensive Pokemon.
Because you know, base 130 special attack and base 110 speed is horrible. Next your gonna say Alakzam sucks to right?oh and shadow ball and dazzling gleam are horrible coverage moves(Alright there not the greatest so I kinda agree). Oh and I foroot magic bounce is a shifty ability(sarcasm)
Alakazam kind of does suck. I mean it's alright and does a job consistently but it's pretty mediocre.
Espeon was NU before it got Magic Bounce. 130 SpA is great and all but Psychic is a terrible STAB and all of its moves have low BP. Offensively, Alakazam and Latios are just better. Espeon ONLY has Magic Bounce going for it, and I guess Baton Pass to evade Pursuit. Plus its screens can't be defogged while it's out.
Alakazam kind of does suck. I mean it's alright and does a job consistently but it's pretty mediocre.
Espeon was NU before it got Magic Bounce. 130 SpA is great and all but Psychic is a terrible STAB and all of its moves have low BP. Offensively, Alakazam and Latios are just better. Espeon ONLY has Magic Bounce going for it, and I guess Baton Pass to evade Pursuit. Plus its screens can't be defogged while it's out.
Alakazam is mediocre? Alakzam Coverage is not that bad(and yes I said it out classes Espeon and compared to Espeon it's got good coverage) it has good speed but is frail to and pursuit weak, but Talonflame is SR weak and people still use it not to mention its frail(and I know it's alittle of a bad comparison because talonflame has priority but still) Alakazam is fast and as ou stated does its job consistently so I'm not sure how that's mediocre unless you mean it's mediocre cause of its typing.
And I'm not saying that Espeon should go up a tier, I'm saying it hits hard and fast(to anything that doesn't resist its attacks)
Unless its baton passing, Espeon is completely outclassed at other things it can do. Deoxys-s and Klefki are much better screen setters, and if you want a fast and strong special attacker with psychic coverage alakazam and even Azelf have better stats and a wider movepool. The only thing that sets Espeon apart is magic bounce, but it's not enough.
Alakazam is mediocre? Alakzam Coverage is not that bad(and yes I said it out classes Espeon and compared to Espeon it's got good coverage) it has good speed but is frail to and pursuit weak, but Talonflame is SR weak and people still use it not to mention its frail(and I know it's alittle of a bad comparison because talonflame has priority but still) Alakazam is fast and as ou stated does its job consistently so I'm not sure how that's mediocre unless you mean it's mediocre cause of its typing.
And I'm not saying that Espeon should go up a tier, I'm saying it hits hard and fast(to anything that doesn't resist its attacks)
Talonflame is a terrible comparison, I'm really lost as to why you mentioned it.
Literally all Espeon has is Baton Pass. Dual Screens is ok but Deo-S has Taunt and can guarantee hazards making it generally superior. Offensive is extremely outclassed and generally sucks, I think we can all agree on that.
Unless its baton passing, Espeon is completely outclassed at other things it can do. Deoxys-s and Klefki are much better screen setters, and if you want a fast and strong special attacker with psychic coverage alakazam and even Azelf have better stats and a wider movepool. The only thing that sets Espeon apart is magic bounce, but it's not enough.
Because you know, base 130 special attack and base 110 speed is horrible. Next your gonna say Alakzam sucks to right?oh and shadow ball and dazzling gleam are horrible coverage moves(Alright there not the greatest so I kinda agree). Oh and I foroot magic bounce is a shifty ability(sarcasm)
All Espeon can offer is an offensive Baton Pass attacker, using Stored Power. Sure, it has Magic Bounce, but that's just one small niche. Did Shedinja get ranked higher for it's niche to wall some of the meta-game? No, so that point should also apply onto Espeon. Espeon is simply outclassed in many ways, as a screen setter Deoxys-S outclasses it thanks to it's better speed, and fast taunt. Offensively Alakazam, Deoxys-S, Latios; can outclass it substantially. There's no reason for Espeon to move up.
Magic Bounce is an strong ability that makes almost every status move bounce back to you anytime the pokemon is present. Don't understimate it.
Deoxys-D, even though the 1760 stats pout it almost on the OU/UU benchmark is an S rank, wen it actually has the same bulk than Uxie (another SR user) and has worse bulk than Cresselia by a good %.
Deoxys-S is not a better screener than Espeon automnatically because only of Magic Bounce. Also, to surprise to you, Deoxys-S is more frail on one side than Espeon (and the other is a little bit bulkier, not much).
Espeon is a counter of Deoxys_D and Deoxys-S. And one of the best at that with Shadow Ball in the moveset.
And starting here, I'm going a bitt harsh. But in general it seems that the higher tier is expecting some OU pokemon to drop (even when it's based on the higher ladder already to filter all silly sets) because for their styles, they "suck". Examples of this are Espeon, Goodra and Blissey.
And I think that some people in the higher ladder want to nerf Baton Pass because the teams aren't well prepared and gives a pokemon that "suck" a top threat on those teams.
And in some cases they appear that they are overhyping some pokemon who they give as alternatives, although the cases are more limited. Example: Hippowdon (Honestly, it looks more an A- or B+ pokemon to me)
Espeon is C+ when Baton Pass teams is not relevant. If Baton pass are potentially broken, the pokemon that usually form a BP team should be increased, at least until the test ends.
Personally, if we are taking BP teams Espeon should be B+ rank, gioven how powerful it's in those teams.
And trust me, before the Deoxys formes went up to S rank, I was thinking if they could drop to A rank, and for me, I thought that Deoxys-D can be A rank for having not that great bulk, no offensive presence and being predictable while Depxys-S has too much uses (sometimes 2 at once) to even suggest a drop on ranking (Hazards, LO + SR; LO + 4 Attacks, Weather setter, Dual Screener) given how versalite it is.
This conclusion makes that maybe Doxys-S is an S rank for being effective in a multiple of roles and having a function of Do you want X happen really fast? You have Deoxys-S. But for me, Deoxys-D (and even less Bisharp) is not an S rank because I think it requires the opponent team to be "weak" to Stealth Rock. In UU Stealth Rock an Defog on the same team is rare because it's generally not worth it to hit the 2-3 SR weak pokemon (and the little ones who take 50% are usually leads).
Deoxys-D, even though the 1760 stats pout it almost on the OU/UU benchmark is an S rank, wen it actually has the same bulk than Uxie (another SR user) and has worse bulk than Cresselia by a good %.
Deoxys-S is not a better screener than Espeon automnatically because only of Magic Bounce. Also, to surprise to you, Deoxys-S is more frail on one side than Espeon (and the other is a little bit bulkier, not much).
Espeon is a counter of Deoxys_D and Deoxys-S. And one of the best at that with Shadow Ball.
I'm not sure what your first statement was about. Deo-D is obviously better than Uxie and Cresselia thanks to access to both hazards and reliable recovery.
No, Deo-S is a better Dual Screener. It prevents not only hazards/support moves with Taunt, but set-up sweepers as well, something Espeon can't do. It's also much faster, meaning that faster Pokemon can't outspeed it and KO it before it can get up both screens. Finally, Deo-S can guarantee Stealth Rock get up, while Espeon can only pray that the opponent is an idiot and uses them against her.
Yes, Espeon does counter the Deo forms bar weather leads. But then you have to use Espeon, who is extremely outclased.
