Actually, I think Landorus-I is actually better.
The metagame has adapted to Charizard Y now, and Charizard X is miles way better. Its predictable, prone to revenge killing, and 4x weak to Stealth Rock.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Actually, I think Landorus-I is actually better.
The metagame has adapted to Charizard Y now, and Charizard X is miles way better. Its predictable, prone to revenge killing, and 4x weak to Stealth Rock.
I'm gonna go ahead and say Gothitelle desperately needs to be moved up to at least B, if not B+ or even A-. It pretty much makes stall an irrelevant threat for HO teams, as it can tear through the majority of key players and keep them from doing anything. It helps about 90% of the set-up sweepers in the tier, especially MegaDos, by eliminating threats to them via trapping. I don't see why this thing is so low when it assist the most common playstyle to such an extent
Ok, B+/A- are much too high. But I do agree with you that B would be a much more fitting placement of Gothitelle's rank. I've already made multiple posts about this so I'm not going to sit here and go in detail, but the fact that a well played Gothitelle can beat stall almost every single time makes this thing a serious asset to any team struggling against Stall. The main reason B+/A- are much too high is because this thing is practically a dead weight vs offense... I mean it can occasionally get in a Specs Psyshock, but most of the time I'm just sacking it. Overall though, the ability to almost single-handedly beat stall makes this thing a serious threat that could easily rise to B rank.
In most situations he can take down Choiced Keldeo, Azumarill assuming it didn't set up, Tflame, Terrakion (maybe didnt calc), and probs some more. I wouldn't say dead weight against offense
Ummmm what?
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gothitelle: 247-292 (87.5 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 246-289 (87.2 - 102.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 220-261 (78 - 92.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 255-300 (90.4 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Azumarill can't OHKO, but neither can Gothitelle, and Assault Vest variants can Play Rough + Aqua Jet to kill.
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 186-220 (65.9 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gothitelle: 84-99 (29.7 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So... yes, I would say it's a dead weight against offense most of the time.
First of all, Amphy can't switch into shit until after it's Mega Evolved. Secondly, the list of things it can check/counter is way smaller than Rotom-W, with maybe one or two things that it can beat that the washing machine can't (Thundy-I is literally the only thing I can think off, and even then HP Ice). Thirdly, its speed is so shit that even if it comes in to pivot, your opponent might decide to just stay in and fuck you up. And finally, no recovery means that you need Wish support to keep it alive, while Rotom-W is self-sustaining (Pain Split's better than nothing).
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I also think the fact that you have to use Mega Ampharos instead of another, more practical Mega Evolution... If you ask me C+ is a fine ranking for it.
I'm not saying put it about Rotom, but I think B- is really where Mega Amph should be. It can check a lot more than a few people here give it credit for, and not as many prominent threats can switch in as you all are making it sound. Steels have to be wary of Focus Blast (provided it doesn't miss), Grounds like Gliscor and Lando need to be mindful of HP Ice, etc. Amph fears nothing from Talonflame and Char-Y, something Rotom-W cannot claim. It's more practical that you're making it sound. While nowhere near as threatening as either Zard or Pinsir or other powerful sweepers such as those, it brings more to the table than a lot of people realize.
Charizard Y can just, you know, hit harder with boosted Fire Blast and pretty much has no counters under sun (technically none except Chansey but obviously it has a shit ton of checks) so why shouldn't I use that? If I really wanted, Zard Y has Roost. Mega Ampharos doesn't have recovery outside shitty RestTalk. It's not really bad, just very outclassed. I would reconsider if it got Draco Meteor and Recovery
Perhaps you need to check Char-Y, not use it yourself. And Amph is definitely a check to Char-Y.
I need to check it and not use it? Ok. I can add a check and move on with my life. I was comparing them as special attackers not saying 1 beats the other 1v1
Okay, and I'm not. I'm not saying you should use Amph over Char-Y, or really anything else if you don't want to, or would rather have electric coverage than fire, or whatever your reason really is.
Notice how I'm saying move it to B-. Not S. Why don't you try comparing him with others more around that area, that I think he's unquestionably better that *coughcough*absol*cough*
I don't think Gothitelle fits in HO, as the specs set is a massive momentum killer. Be locked into Psyshock and you'll be set-up fodder for DDance Ttar, Bisharp, etc.
I don't really think it's fair to say gothitelle is dead weight against offense because it can't switch in to many threats. You can u-turn/vswitch into scarfgoth and get free kills on stuff weak to psychic or basically any offense mon below 50%, and also revenge kill stuff that would be able to get a free kill if it ever came in again. The utility of shadow tag just can't be underestimated.
It's not even switching in though... I mean if I try to revenge kill Keldeo/Terrakion I get OHKOd by a Hydro Pump/Stone Edge 0_0
I mean Gothitelle's good; hell, I want it to move up. It's just that it's flaws prevent it from moving past B imo.
It's not switching in though it if it can just come in on vswitch/u-turn or revenge kill. Id only hard switch if i saw a locked keldeo secret sword or something. It's also usually only 2hkoed against most threats without a super effective move so its somewhat useful in a pinch. Anyway the point is its really not that deadweight against offense if you play it correctly. I think B+ or A- is fair given how devestating it is against stall and chansey in particular.
I'm talking about scarf set btw which is fast enough to outspeed thundurus at the very least...i think it's better played that way^ then specs which almost always has to take a hit before it can kill anything on offense which is pretty bad, and it's just as effective against stall because trick is basically all you need to cripple things.
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Yes but the problem is that you have to play with it so carefully a lot of the time it can't even preform its job... I mean having a Psychic-type that can't even revenge kill Pokemon as Terrakion and Keldeo a lot of the time is annoying. I mean I'd much rather go with Latios, who can come in and revenge kill both of them no problem. Of course Latios can't beat stall, but it does much better against common offensive teams due to its Speed and power. Also, U-Turn and Volt Switch only work if A. The Volt Switch/U-Turn is slow and B. You know for a fact the Pokemon you're going to come in on you can revenge kill (Which, against offense, isn't the case a lot of the time.)
So basically I do find Gothitelle to be a dead weight a lot of the time. There just aren't very many threats it can switch in to, and even when trying to revenge kill something it is either outright OHKOd or takes massive amounts of damage in the process. Basically, I'm standing at B is as high as I feel it should go.
1. Mega Manectric should stay B rank. It takes up the mega slot and doesn't hit hard enough (flamethrower fails to OHKO sp.def Ferro). Volt Switch can be used to scout, but Zapdos can do that too, and it also has access to Defog, Roost and Heat Wave. Also, Mega Manectric is frail even with Intimidate, and it can't do anything about most special attackers, unless they are weak to its STAB. Honestly everything it does can also be done by Zapdos.
2. Nominating Weavile for B-/B rank. Weavile is the fastest Knock Off user with STAB in the game iirc. It also has much less counters than in Gen V because Steel no longer resists its dark stab. It's able to beat all the S rank Pokemon (even Zard X after SR and Aegislash with prediction). Also, Weavile is still one of the best dragon slayers in the game. It's BL for a reason, you know.
3. Nominating Diggersby for B- rank. Needs Choice Band to be of any use in my opinion, since the Choice Scarf set doesn't hit hard enough. The CB set, however, relies too much on prediction.
2. Nominating Weavile for B-/B rank. Weavile is the fastest Knock Off user with STAB in the game iirc. It also has much less counters than in Gen V because Steel no longer resists its dark stab. It's able to beat all the S rank Pokemon (even Zard X after SR and Aegislash with prediction). Also, Weavile is still one of the best dragon slayers in the game. It's BL for a reason, you know.
3. Nominating Diggersby for B- rank. Needs Choice Band to be of any use in my opinion, since the Choice Scarf set doesn't hit hard enough. The CB set, however, relies too much on prediction.
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If anything, Mega Manectric should move below B rank, to maybe B- rank. What's the point of a pivot who could potentially get murdered/badly injured on its first switch in, thanks to its lack of resistances and its base form's poor stats? The lack of recovery also compounds the problem. A pivot should be able to safely switch in and recover momentum against your team's bad match-ups. What does MegaManectric bring to the table that Rotom-W and Zapdos don't have? Rotom-W and Zapdos at least have a ground immunity going for them, and bring additional utility.
It's simple, you wait until one of your mons faint so you get a free switch (or you can also switch in on a predicted electric move and absorb it with regular Manectric's ability). That's how Manectric players play, they bring it in every time something else faints.
And Manectric will bring something none of these pokemon can: a base 135 speed. Coupled with intimidate, a high special attack and a dangerous electric/fire/ice coverage, it's very easy to force a switch. And its volt turn, with stab, hurts. Not many pokemon can stay in on Manectric, and the ones who can don't enjoy switching into Volt Switch and taking heavy damage. Or switching into another move and then getting attacked again, because this is a pokemon who is almost guaranteed to attack first. It's a very tricky pokemon to face.
It's no wonder it's going to become OU in the next tier update.
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The best Diggersby set is arguably Swords Dance, which 6-0s stall, 2HKOing even Skarmory at +2, and not giving 2 shits about both unawares(only fears a scald burn from Sire since scald does not 2HKOs). Quick Attack makes it treathening even for offense, since it ohkoes everything faster at +2 except shit like Terrakion. Not to mention it can also run Agility and Choice Scarf sets, which makes him more treathening, at least on first turn. It's very similar to Pinsir, except it has worse speed and coverage, but much better typing, STAB combo, and variety(also utility with U-Turn). It can't run all sets at once, but neither can every Pokémon that is ranked high because of its unpredictability.
Agreed. This thing gives Talonflame a run for it's money with a great attack stat, average speed, (Hint: Use a Scarf) and some excellent coverage. How excellent? The only thing that walls it is Aegislash (Type wise at least, but its a suicide wallbreaker so it should do it's job well enough). You could try a Band set instead, but that would require Sticky Web support (Any excuse to shove Galvantula in, seriously it's underrated as all hell.) Staraptor for BB- -> B This honestly doesn't need too much explanation, but Il'l be explaining anyway. Staraptor may suffer from being really frail and is worn down heavily by recoil and SR, but it's easily the best physical Flying-type wallbreaker in the entire tier. STAB Reckless Brave Bird does insane damage against even some resisting Pokémon and if there's any Electric-types in the way, those are usually smothered by an equally brutal Double-Edge. On top of that, Staraptor has Close Combat to deal with baddies like Tyranitar, Mega Tyranitar, Heatran...generally most things resisting its immense STABs. It can even be used on VoltTurn cores with U-turn to keep up momentum. Its 100 Speed can sometimes let it down, but Staraptor's wallbreaking potential is only augmented when it goes Birdspamming with its pal Talonflame, who cleans up any faster sweepers to allow Staraptor to seriously wreck some shit.
This thing is the very epitome of physical wallbreaking. Staraptor for B.
As a person who uses Weavile a LOT, I can say this ninja/cat thing gets shit done with a Life Orb in hand and no fucks to give. STAB Knock Off coming from Base 120 attack is going to HURT. While it's defences are shite (70/65/85) and any Fighting type move WILL OHKO it, Weavile is not to be underestimated. B-/B is good for the OG Ninja Pokemon.
The main problem I have with this is that gothitelle is going to try to switch in on a resisted hit or revenge kill after a they are locked into a resisted hit. Also, there are choice scarf sets for either Terrakion or keldeo that, although less common, are still serious threats for certain sweepers such as CharX, MegaTar, and in terrakion's case, Pinsir.
I do agree that goth can't beat some other threats no matter what she does, like talonflame, but Azumarill she can still heavily dent or trick a choice item, which nothing will enjoy.
Gothitelle is not dead weight against any team, she simply can't be played as a tank and must come in to revenge kill on a choice locked hit that she can either outspeed and OHKO against, take the hit and and OHKO, or take the hit and either heavily damage a particular threat to your team or cripple it with a choice item.
Have you tried using Mega Manectric once? I've made a couple of posts about moving it up to A- Rank for a while now. Taking up a Mega Slot is not a viable unless you need to run Mega Zard X for Dragon Dance, or Mega Zard Y for a bit of wallbreaking and Sun Support. Mega Manectric acts a really fast and powerful pivot that really fucks up a lot of things with its high Speed tier (135!!). And are you seriously comparing Zapdos and Mega Manectric? For real? Mega Manectric runs Volt Switch / Hidden Power [Ice] or Hidden Power [Grass] / Overheat / Thunderbolt. And about the Ferrothorn thing:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 380-448 (107.9 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and on hazard stacking teams, Mega Manectric can run Flamethrower as well:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 264-312 (75 - 88.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Here's Flamethrower vs. the set in the analysis:
252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Ferrothorn: 344-408 (97.7 - 115.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
So, I don't know what you mean by that. And if Ferrothorn has taken any previous damage, it is killed by Flamethrower after Stealth Rock, and even if it is, it's left with what? ~7% HP? Still enough to be killed by anything. It has a base 135 Special Attack, which is higher than Keldeo and Thundurus without boosting items, and Mega Manectric has base 130 Defense
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 189-223 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 204-241 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Here's just an example, and while Zapdos is far bulkier, do you notice how they're both 2HKOed? Also, notice how Talonflame is stuck with the -1 until it switches. Oh yeah, and the fact it is OHKOed with Thunderbolt (and outsped!!). Zapdos lacks offensive presence, is weak to Stealth Rock, and not to mention the fact it plays a far different role than Mega Manectric, it's a bulky Defogger, while Mega Manectric is a fast offensive pivot. The one thing in common is the access to a VoltSwitch and being Electric-types, it stops there though. Zapdos also isn't guaranteed to OHKO:
68 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 40 SpD Ferrothorn: 296-352 (84 - 100%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So there's that as well, and Mega Manectric's Overhaeat > Zapdos' Heat Wave any day. I also wouldn't call it not bulky:
4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 142-168 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (with the Flying-type taken away)
-1 4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Manectric: 100-118 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It's bulkier than an uninvested Zapdos, while also being much faster and more powerful. I'll give it to you that Zapdos is more specially bulky, but still, you're missing the point of Mega Manectric. It is supposed to just Volt Switch whenever and use coverage when needs be, it's not to be used 'just to scout'. That's like saying you can only eat a small slice of the cake! Try out Mega Manectric, it's amazing for offensive and VoltSwitch teams alike. But I'm not cool with comparing Zapdos to Mega Manectric, when they play different roles. Of course Heatran outclasses Mega Charizard Y defensively, the same can be sad about Zapdos outclassing Mega Manectric Defensively. Now, Diggersby. It's the bane of stall and +2 Diggersby is a gg. I'll get more in-depth later, but I don't want to go into a whole huge thing right now :].
Yeah Diggersby is not leaving B+ anytime soon lol. I mean after an SD this thing literally does so much damage to stall it's not even funny. Like here are some calcs I posted a while back in the Diggersby analysis.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 160-187 (47.9 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 390-460 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 348-411 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 2090-2464 (541.4 - 638.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 386-454 (126.9 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 448-528 (116.6 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 741-873 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I mean like after a Swords Dance boost there is very little that can reliably counter it. I think the only thing that's really keeping it from going any higher is the immense competition it faces from Lando-I as a wallbreaker, but being able to switch into Aegislash quite easily, priority Quick Attack, and a more powerful priority move keep it in the running for a great wallbreaker.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 160-187 (47.9 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 390-460 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 348-411 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 2090-2464 (541.4 - 638.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 386-454 (126.9 - 149.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 448-528 (116.6 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 741-873 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I mean like after a Swords Dance boost there is very little that can reliably counter it. I think the only thing that's really keeping it from going any higher is the immense competition it faces from Lando-I as a wallbreaker, but being able to switch into Aegislash quite easily, priority Quick Attack, and a more powerful priority move keep it in the running for a great wallbreaker.
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