Whoops, misread like I usually do and its analysis hasn't been reject yet X_X
(Seriously though remove it anyway)
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
- Start date
- Status
(Seriously though remove it anyway)
Damn, you're right. It's at 2/3.
What do you think about Tangrowth?
EDIT: Karxrida Success!
EDIT 2: Alright, Croak was rejected :(
I think it should be D rank instead of unranked, unlike Galvantula. But I'd be flexible for Galvantula.
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Never used it before personally, so I can't say. Its Assault Vest Regenerator set looks decent on paper, but its typing makes switching in somewhat difficult.
I do think that Hawlucha needs to drop, however. Walled by Aegislash unless it runs Fling (requiring prediction to beat it), super predictable (it has like 1 set with minor variations), base attack that's lower than Ferrothorn's so it's weak unboosted, easy to revenge with priority, extremely reliant on High Jump Kick and its Unburden boost, and low defenses make finding time to Swords Dance difficult. D Rank seems appropriate.
I think Magnemite, the writer of its analysis, agrees with you. I personally haven't touched it; I probably should to fully understand how good/bad it is though.
Galvantula for E Rank. It lacks the utility to make the most out of Sticky Web, and its frailty forces it to run a sash. All it will ever do is set up Sticky Web then die shortly after. Sticky Web is not as threatening compared to Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes, as Bisharp gets an SD right off the bat and a lot of OU's top threats are levitators like Latios, have access to priority (Mawile, Scizor) or Flying-types like Landorus, Thundurus, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, and Dragonite. Shuckle at least has SR, bulk, Encore, trapping, and Knock Off to allow it to contribute after it has laid down its hazards. Smeargle can at least put something to sleep or reflect hazards with Magic Coat. Offensively, Galvantula is outclassed by Thundurus and Manectric who can hit harder and can run Prankster Thunder Wave or Intimidate.
Also reviving Gastrodon.
Also reviving Gastrodon.
I'm pretty sure we decided against an E rank. I think it's best that relatively terrible mons are just left unranked.
Gastrodon however, does need a ranking.
It plays a lot like Genesect imo. It threatens to KO a large portion of the meta, and anything it can't KO it can volt-switch out of, dealing chip damage and still getting that intimidate off. Just like Genesect, you switch it in whenever you think your opponent is going to switch: chances are, Mega Man checks whatever comes out and can LOLVOLTSWITCH or just try for an OHKO.
Aegislash Overheat does a number but so does Shadowball. Call it a tie. Intimidate means it's only going to be able to use Shadowball anyway.
Charizard (Mega-X) loses, but intimidate makes it easier to handle for something else
Deoxys-D walled
Deoxys-S lmao 2fast, Psycho Boost OHKOs
Landorus-I 252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 324-384 (101.2 - 120%)
Thundurus-I 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 183-216 (61 - 72%), Thundy can't do much back
A+ Rank
Azumarill 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 362-428 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, AV sets still lose since it can't KO back
Bisharp Intim gives +1 and Sucker Punch KOs so be careful around Bisharp
Charizard (Mega-Y) 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 270-318 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO basically any amount of prior damage (rocks) and this is a guaranteed KO.
Garchomp 252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 312-368 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock again, only needs the slightest amount of additional damage to guarantee OHKO, spikes would do it. Loses to bulkier sets.
Greninja Thundarbelt
Gyarados (Mega) 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 242-288 (72.8 - 86.7%) normal form loses 25% from Stealth Rock, and even if it didn't it can volt switch to do quite a lot of damage and let something else handle -1 Gyarados/grab muhmentum. Even at +1 speed you outspeed so it can revenge kill, too.
Keldeo Funderbalt
Mawile (Mega) Overheat OHKOs, -1 Sucker Punch does 55% max
Pinsir (Mega) Henderbolt, or even Volt Switch. Or Overheat if it's unevolved. Resists Aerialate Quick Attack.
Scizor (Mega) FLAMMENWERFER or Overheat
Talonflame Volt-Switch
Tyranitar (Mega) loses badly but lol volt-switch, something else can handle -1 Tyranitar
Venusaur (Mega) walled
A Rank
Clefable walled
Dragonite 252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 272-320 (83.9 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, but if scale is not broken you can still volt switch out. You outspeed even when it's at +1 speed.
Excadrill OHKOed by Overheat, Scarf sets a shit so scout those out first
Ferrothorn Flammenwerfer or Overheat
Gengar Thunderbolt does max of 86.2%, LO Sludge Bomb does up to 96% back so you can only check ones that are slightly weakened.
Heatran walled
Hippowdon walled
Kyurem-B loses to Earth Power but you got that intimidate off so other stuff can deal with it easily
Landorus-T 252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 324-384 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, look out for scarf/AV sets.
Latios loses
Rotom-W 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, can't KO back
Terrakion loses to CB or Scarf Earthquake but Intimidate
Tyranitar walled but Intimidate
A- Rank
Chansey lmao 2fat
Latias walled
Mamoswine loses
Manaphy Udderbolt, even Wacan Berry sets lose if it's at +0 as it can't OHKO back
Mandibuzz Bolted
Politoed Bolted
Scizor Burned
Skarmory Bolt
Zapdos Specially defensive sets win, maybe, but most are physical so this is a 2HKO after rocks
So yeah. Mega Man checks and wins against 2.5 of S rank and the entirety of A+ rank, barring Bisharp, Mega Venusaur and Mega T-Tar. But T-Tar is still intimidated; this is why Mega Man is so good, anything it can't win against it can just volt-switch out of and let something else handle.
So to answer, "What does MegaManectric bring to the table that Rotom-W and Zapdos don't have," it's:
-Speed (135 base speed is fast as balls, the only things even ranked that are faster are Deo-S and Mega Aerodactyl, as well as Swift Swimmers and some Scarfers.)
-Intimidate
-a bit more power (LO Zapdos hits harder but you still don't have much speed, and you don't have Over Heat)
-EDIT: Lightning Rod before mega evolving dissuades the use of stuff like Priority Thunder Wave or Volt Switch. I've swept whole teams more than a few times with a +1 Mega Man.
Except Genesect can switch into a lot of attacks thanks to its resistances and actually force out a lot of pokemon thanks to its coverage and sheer power on both sides. Megaman either needs to be your lead and Megavolve turn 1 (probably taking significant damage along the way), or switch in its lackluster base form and take either a neutral hit or risk getting killed outright by an Earthquake/Earth Power. The calcs you provided are useless because they all work under the assumption that these guys would be switching into Megaman rather than the other way around, which is what PIVOTS are supposed to do. His lack of any recovery whatsoever compounds the problem (RestTalk?), as is his inability to boost his stats reliably (he gets, what, Charge Beam??). I don't think he can reliably revenge DDers either, even when already MegaVolved, since most of them carry Earthquake for coverage (that's still going to maim him after Intimidate).
Yes, Genesect was a better offensive pivot. It was really good. So good that it got banned, the end. Now Mega Man is its closest thing we have for an offensive pivot that checks tons of stuff.
Mega Man DOES play a lot like Genesect did: it's not switching in to attacks that often, it's being brought in on a predicted switch, after a KO to revenge kill, with the help of another, slower pivot, on a predicted status move, on weak attacks like Mandibuzz Knock Off, etc. And while Genesect had more resistances, Mega Man has more bulk due to Intimidate (plus pretty much everything can hit bug/steel neutrally.) No it's not an absolute wall but it's got enough bulk to do what it needs to do. Really, I'd just go watch early SPL replays, when Gene was still allowed. I mean it doesn't play exactly like Mega Man because Gene was so versatile, but for a quick example we have:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-348 <- Turn 8 here, bringing Gene out on a predicted switch. Same exact thing could have been done with Mega Man.
Yes its base form sucks so if you're using Mega Man you make it a priority to evolve it ASAP, but it's not like this is overly difficult: 105 base speed is still pretty fast, it can MEvolve against quite a number of things.
Also do stop thinking every pivot is Rotom-W. Rotom-W is a defensive pivot that either checks stuff with the threat of being walled/burned/etc, or has the bulk to take a hit, underspeed and bring in something safely. Mega Man is an offensive pivot that grabs momentum by threatening to kick your ass if you stay in, and then volt-switches out like
And yes it can revenge +1 (Adamant) Dragonite and Gyarados because it outspeeds them, and HP Ice and Thunderbolt hit them pretty hard.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-348
Wow, this match is painful to watch. Two switchout whores going at it hardcore.
Wow, this match is painful to watch. Two switchout whores going at it hardcore.
I am nominating Alakazam for C rank.
Its job is revengekilling. But, due to the bulky nature of the metagame, it faces difficulty in revenging set up sweepers like Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard-X at 1. Its speed stat is not what it used to be with Greninja, MegaMan, Talonflame (although, this one doesn't matter), Deo-S running rampant and priorioty Thunder Wave as well as priority attacks everywhere. Also, as a revenge killer it is almost completely eclipsed by LO Deo-S due to its better coverage, stronger attacks and the ability to use physical attacks.
Also, why is Scizor in A- rank when it is completely outclassed by Mega Scizor, except for choice band?
Its job is revengekilling. But, due to the bulky nature of the metagame, it faces difficulty in revenging set up sweepers like Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard-X at 1. Its speed stat is not what it used to be with Greninja, MegaMan, Talonflame (although, this one doesn't matter), Deo-S running rampant and priorioty Thunder Wave as well as priority attacks everywhere. Also, as a revenge killer it is almost completely eclipsed by LO Deo-S due to its better coverage, stronger attacks and the ability to use physical attacks.
Also, why is Scizor in A- rank when it is completely outclassed by Mega Scizor, except for choice band?
Aegislash Overheat does a number but so does Shadowball. Call it a tie. Intimidate means it's only going to be able to use Shadowball anyway.
Charizard (Mega-X) loses, but intimidate makes it easier to handle for something else
Deoxys-D walled
Deoxys-S lmao 2fast, Psycho Boost OHKOs
Landorus-I 252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 324-384 (101.2 - 120%)
Loses to Calm Mind and Choice Scarf variants, although scarf lando-i is rare.
Thundurus-I 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 183-216 (61 - 72%), Thundy can't do much back
A+ Rank
Azumarill 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill: 362-428 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, AV sets still lose since it can't KO back
if Azumarill managed to set up a Belly Drum, you LOSE.
Bisharp Intim gives +1 and Sucker Punch KOs so be careful around Bisharp
Charizard (Mega-Y) 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 270-318 (90.6 - 106.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO basically any amount of prior damage (rocks) and this is a guaranteed KO.
Garchomp 252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 312-368 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock again, only needs the slightest amount of additional damage to guarantee OHKO, spikes would do it. Loses to bulkier sets and the Choice Scarf set.
Greninja Thundarbelt Scarf Greninja can hurt M-Manectric
Gyarados (Mega) 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 242-288 (72.8 - 86.7%) normal form loses 25% from Stealth Rock, and even if it didn't it can volt switch to do quite a lot of damage and let something else handle -1 Gyarados/grab muhmentum. Even at +1 speed you outspeed (If Gyarados runs Jolly, you lose.) so it can revenge kill, too.
Keldeo Funderbalt (Scarf variants will do a lot of damage with Hydro Pump)
Mawile (Mega) Overheat OHKOs, -1 Sucker Punch does 55% max
Pinsir (Mega) Henderbolt, or even Volt Switch. Or Overheat if it's unevolved. Resists Aerialate Quick Attack.
Scizor (Mega) FLAMMENWERFER or Overheat
Talonflame Volt-Switch
Tyranitar (Mega) loses badly but lol volt-switch, something else can handle -1 Tyranitar
Venusaur (Mega) walled
A Rank
Clefable walled
Dragonite 252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 272-320 (83.9 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, but if scale is not broken you can still volt switch out. You outspeed even when it's at +1 speed. (Jolly Dragonite beats you with EQ)
Excadrill OHKOed by Overheat, Scarf sets a shit so scout those out first
Ferrothorn Flammenwerfer or Overheat
ferro can take a Flamethrower and annoy with Leech Seed
Gengar Thunderbolt does max of 86.2%, LO Sludge Bomb does up to 96% back so you can only check ones that are slightly weakened.
Heatran walled
Hippowdon walled
Kyurem-B loses to Earth Power but you got that intimidate off so other stuff can deal with it easily
Landorus-T 252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Landorus-T: 324-384 (84.8 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, look out for scarf/AV sets.
Latios loses
Rotom-W 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, can't KO back
Modest Specs Hydro Pump is an ohko.
Terrakion loses to CB or Scarf Earthquake but Intimidate
Tyranitar walled but Intimidate
A- Rank
Chansey lmao 2fat
Latias walled
Mamoswine loses
Manaphy Udderbolt, even Wacan Berry sets lose if it's at +0 as it can't OHKO back
Mandibuzz Bolted
Politoed Bolted
Scizor Burned
Skarmory Bolt
Zapdos Specially defensive sets win, maybe, but most are physical so this is a 2HKO after rocks
So yeah. Mega Man checks and wins against 2.5 of S rank and the entirety of A+ rank, barring Bisharp, Mega Venusaur and Mega T-Tar. But T-Tar is still intimidated; this is why Mega Man is so good, anything it can't win against it can just volt-switch out of and let something else handle.
So to answer, "What does MegaManectric bring to the table that Rotom-W and Zapdos don't have," it's:
-Speed (135 base speed is fast as balls, the only things even ranked that are faster are Deo-S and Mega Aerodactyl, as well as Swift Swimmers and some Scarfers.)
-Intimidate
-a bit more power (LO Zapdos hits harder but you still don't have much speed, and you don't have Over Heat)
-EDIT: Lightning Rod before mega evolving dissuades the use of stuff like Priority Thunder Wave or Volt Switch. I've swept whole teams more than a few times with a +1 Mega Man.
Scarf Greninja doesn't exist because it's terrible and stupid.
^Scarf Greninja and Keldeo are really rare, Life Orb and Specs are far, far more common
No one runs Jolly, max speed Gyarados/DNite, and they still need a +1 boost to outspeed you anyway
Scarf Lando is rare
Yes it loses to boosted Lando and Azu
Specs Rotom-W is a shitty (and also really rare) set
252/252+ SDef is an EV spread no one runs on Ferrothorn and it's being OHKOed by Overheat anyway.
No one runs Jolly, max speed Gyarados/DNite, and they still need a +1 boost to outspeed you anyway
Scarf Lando is rare
Yes it loses to boosted Lando and Azu
Specs Rotom-W is a shitty (and also really rare) set
252/252+ SDef is an EV spread no one runs on Ferrothorn and it's being OHKOed by Overheat anyway.
Stopped reading at Scarf Greninja.
Seriously.
Seriously.
I'm really sick of people posting lists of S-B ranks and saying what their Pokemon does to each of them. No one cares if a Pokemon can beat half of the other Pokemon in a 1 on 1 situation. Mega Manectric doesn't win against half those things because it can't switch in on them. Like Azumarill. Manectric is not taking a Play Rough + Aqua Jet or Play Rough + Waterfall from AV variants. Like, I'm not even saying Manectric is bad or whatever, but you can't just list a bunch of 1v1 scenarios that just aren't going to happen in a real battle and tell me it deserves A rank. That's not how the game is played.
I actually find C- to be appropriate for it. It makes for a pretty substandard sweeper in OU, granted, but it actually makes for a very solid BPer, since the Pokemon that wall it can't do much to stop it from simply passing on its boosts. It isn't actually too hard to get in, and none of the Pokemon that wall it can OHKO it. It does require a lot of support, but I've had my fair share of triumphs on the back of a SD pass to Dragonite, and unlike the likes of Scolipede, nobody really expects it to pass.
You definitely have a good point there, but they're mostly hypothetical situations. The inverse could also happen, an opponent Pokémon coming in on something like Mega Manectric. Interpret it in two ways: Mega Manectric may not be able to switch in onto most of these Pokémon, but regardless of that, little can switch into Mega Manectric, either because of its excellent coverage.
Again, you've posed a good argument, but look at it from multiple sides of the spectrum.
Except that's not what people are arguing. All defensive hypothetical situations always assume you switch in on the Pokemon in question so I'm not sure what your point here is (hell our assumed definition of counter even includes switching in on something). All I'm saying is that these hypotheticals mean nothing because they're almost never going to happen in a real battle, so I don't care if Manectric can beat AV Azumarill if it comes in on a revenge kill, since that means Azumarill killed something first.
Well I was comparing Mega Manectric to offensive LO Zapdos, which in my opinion is viable competitively, though worse than the defensive defog set. Also, 135 speed is cool... until you realize M-Manectric doesn't hit as hard as you would like to. I would rather use Flamethrower over Overheat on M-Manectric, because the latter makes you setup bait for Mega Zard X, Aegislash, Bisharp, Azumarill, etc etc etc. Defensive Zapdos doesn't lack offensive presence, it has a great base 125 special attack, which is really good for a Defog tank.
SD Diggersby can't really set up with that pathetic bulk. Does EQ OHKO Aegislash at +0? I'm too lazy to do the calcs.
It doesn't matter if Earthquake OHKOs unboosted because Air Balloon is a common item to let you spinblock Excadrill.
Absolutely.
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 390-460 (120.3 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I'll try to elaborate on why Manectric deserves A/A-. Manectric can fill many roles on a team thanks to its ability, stellar speed and sp. attack and perfect movepool for its role.
First as a pivot Manectric can perform its role decently switching in on resisted hits or slow turning but most importantly it's really hard to stop Manectric from pivoting as hippo is the only notable ground type not 4x weak to ice and all others get outsped.
Manectric is also quite a capable revenge killer outspeeding +1 adamant d-nite and gyarados and both dropping their attack back to 0 and either revenging or simply switching out. Manecrtric mono electric typing combined with intimidate also allows it to revenge Scizor, Talonflame and Pinsir as well.
Though the best part of Manectric is that it is an excellent win con. v. Offensive Teams. Manectric outspeeds most everything besides Deo-S and scarf chomp and can clean HO really easily, and with volt switch you can wear down defensive cores on balanced teams like mega venusaur who has to keep switching in to manectrics volt switch and is then forced out by wallbreakers such as landorous-I. Against balance Manectric is a win con that when paired with a wallbreaker can wear down its own counters.
Oh I'll bring this up Entei for B rank. Entei is a fantastic wallbreaker with sacred fires power with a choice band and the crippling burn is able to deter most any defensive or offensive switch-ins. With rotom-w falling in usage it's most common counter is less common.
Entei is notable for being able to switch in easily on many of the walls it wants to break such as Sylveon, Clefable, Venusaur, Ferrothorn and Chestnaught thanks to its great bulk and decent mono fire typing.
Entei also makes a good revenge killer with banded Extremespeed. Entei nice base 100 speed is a very good speed tier for adamant wallbreakers as it outspeeds most notable defensive threats. Even solid answers like Slowbro and Quagsire don't want to be worn down with burn. Overall Entei is IMO a very underrated wallbreaker that is very hard to switch into and is easy to switch into most walls it wants to break which makes worthy of B rank
First as a pivot Manectric can perform its role decently switching in on resisted hits or slow turning but most importantly it's really hard to stop Manectric from pivoting as hippo is the only notable ground type not 4x weak to ice and all others get outsped.
Manectric is also quite a capable revenge killer outspeeding +1 adamant d-nite and gyarados and both dropping their attack back to 0 and either revenging or simply switching out. Manecrtric mono electric typing combined with intimidate also allows it to revenge Scizor, Talonflame and Pinsir as well.
Though the best part of Manectric is that it is an excellent win con. v. Offensive Teams. Manectric outspeeds most everything besides Deo-S and scarf chomp and can clean HO really easily, and with volt switch you can wear down defensive cores on balanced teams like mega venusaur who has to keep switching in to manectrics volt switch and is then forced out by wallbreakers such as landorous-I. Against balance Manectric is a win con that when paired with a wallbreaker can wear down its own counters.
Oh I'll bring this up Entei for B rank. Entei is a fantastic wallbreaker with sacred fires power with a choice band and the crippling burn is able to deter most any defensive or offensive switch-ins. With rotom-w falling in usage it's most common counter is less common.
Entei is notable for being able to switch in easily on many of the walls it wants to break such as Sylveon, Clefable, Venusaur, Ferrothorn and Chestnaught thanks to its great bulk and decent mono fire typing.
Entei also makes a good revenge killer with banded Extremespeed. Entei nice base 100 speed is a very good speed tier for adamant wallbreakers as it outspeeds most notable defensive threats. Even solid answers like Slowbro and Quagsire don't want to be worn down with burn. Overall Entei is IMO a very underrated wallbreaker that is very hard to switch into and is easy to switch into most walls it wants to break which makes worthy of B rank
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Bringing up Seismitoad for discussion as its analysis was just completed.
Seismitoad's main use is a rain sweeper that shrugs off Thundurus Thunder Waves and scares off Raikou with Ground typing. It even has the coverage to hit Ferrothorn and Azumarill (Focus Blast/Sludge Wave). It also has decent bulk for an offensive mon. (105/75/75). Rain-boosted Hydro Pump has decent power for an average Special Attack. C Rank imo.
Also reviving Gastrodon.
Seismitoad's main use is a rain sweeper that shrugs off Thundurus Thunder Waves and scares off Raikou with Ground typing. It even has the coverage to hit Ferrothorn and Azumarill (Focus Blast/Sludge Wave). It also has decent bulk for an offensive mon. (105/75/75). Rain-boosted Hydro Pump has decent power for an average Special Attack. C Rank imo.
Also reviving Gastrodon.
Seismitoad is a good C/C- candidate.
Also if Gastrodon is mentioned at all it should really be C-/D, it's heavily outclassed by Quagsire now, who has a much better ability. VoltTurn is far less common this gen, and Ferrothorn is a much better defensive Rain counter. It's a very niche Pokemon with a very niche role in the metagame.
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