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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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Yeah, Mesprit won't be very useful as a Lando-I counter any time soon. If you want to counter Lando-I, use specially defensive Dragonite with Ice Beam or Ice Punch (Punch means you don't need to care about Calm Mind sets either). HP Ice isn't common (or good) anymore, and with Multiscale up, you can live 2 of them anyway and KO it. Cresselia is also a better counter than Mesprit since it has better bulk so it can't be 2HKO'd, and has reliable recovery while still having Ice Beam. So yeah, Mesprit seems pretty outclassed.

As for Mega Banette, it's not a really good stallbreaker at all because it lacks reliable recovery so it can just be worn down by attacks and many of stalls common moves also have secondary effects like Sludge Bomb, Lava Plume and Scald which can make Destiny Bond useless if they land a burn or a poison, meaning Mega Banette is not even guaranteed to 1-for-1, which is terrible and not what you want when choosing a stallbreaker, especially one that burns your mega slot.
 
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Karxrida said:
Gengar can do the exact same thing, is faster, and can carry Black Sludge so it can Sub more than 3 times. It's also immune to Toxic and Ground attacks thanks to Levitate.

God Gengar's so awesome at fucking over Stall even without his MEvo...
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What are you comparing Gengar to?

EDIT: Oh, I'm guessing you mean Mesprit. But if you mean Banette, I'd disagree that it's bad. It's not really a stall breaker. Sure, it has Taunt and Knock Off, but the reason it's good is that it can screw with offensive teams with Disable + Will-o-wisp. It's always guaranteed one kill per game with an offensive team, and it's also likely to get at least one more with its sheer power, as well as cripple something by burning them.
 
finncent1 said:
What are you comparing Gengar to?

EDIT: Oh, I'm guessing you mean Mesprit. But if you mean Banette, I'd disagree.
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I was talking about Banette, though Gengar can make an okay Lando check with HP Ice on a Life Orb/Specs set or just D-Bond it (Knock Off and Psychic are both guaranteed OHKOs).
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 276-328 (86.2 - 102.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 411-489 (128.4 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Karxrida said:
I was talking about Banette, though Gengar can make an okay Lando check with HP Ice on a Life Orb/Specs set or just D-Bond it (Knock Off and Psychic are both guaranteed OHKOs).
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 276-328 (86.2 - 102.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 411-489 (128.4 - 152.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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Banette doesn't use Substitute and isn't a stallbreaker. That's why I was confused.
 
finncent1 said:
Banette doesn't use Substitute and isn't a stallbreaker. That's why I was confused.
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People were talking about it being a Stallbreaker (I think, I sometimes misread things) and I was just pointing out that Gengar can do that better.
 
Karxrida said:
People were talking about it being a Stallbreaker (I think, I sometimes misread things) and I was just pointing out that Gengar can do that better.
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Oh. Interesting. In that case you're right. WoW screws with offense. Disable screws with offense. Knock Off screws with everything. Taunt screws with everything. It's more of a support pokemon tailored to annoying offensive teams to death. I think it fits C rank perfectly, and not ranking it would be naïve (yes, I put the dieresis. Sue me). As a stall breaker, Gengar is infinitely superior, but that isn't Banette's job.
 
Eievui-Nymphia said:
I have done a quick (and probably innacurate on some cases), of the rating that get the S and A pokemon by certain playstle. What you notice is that full stall plays very diferently than the rest of the styles; pokemon that are good in the other times are not that useful in stall and viceversa.

This is how this works:
Quagsire: E (Hyper Offense), E(Offense), E (Bulky Ofense), D (Balance), B- (semi-stall), A+ (Stall). The E means that the pokemon is not usable in this style.

Order o styles; Hyper Ofense, Offense, Bulky Offense, Balance, Bulky Balance & Semistall, Full stall.
Aegislash: S, S, S, S, A+, A-
MCharizard-X: S, S, S, S, A+, B+.
Deoxys-D: S, A, B+, A-, B-, B+.
Deoxys-S: S, A+, A-, A, A, C.
Landorus: S, A+, A, A, A-, C-
Thundurus: S, S, A+, A+, A, B.

Azumarill: A-, A, S, A+, A-, B.
Bisharp: S, A+, A-, A, A-, D.
MCharizard Y: A+, S, A+, A+, A, C+.
Clefable: B-, A-, A, A, A+. S.
Excadrill: A, A+, A, A+, A- C.
Garchomp: A+, A+, A, A+, A-, B-.
Greninja: A+, A, A-, A, B, D.
MGyarados: A+, A+, S, A+, A, B.
Keldeo: A, A+, A+, A+, A-, B-.
MMawile: A, A, A+, A+, A-, B-.
MPinsir: S, S, A, A+, A-, C+.
MScizor: A-, A, A+, A+, A, B+.
Talonflame: A+, A+, A, A+, A-, C+.
Tyranitar: A+, A+, S, A+, A, B+.

Dragonite: A-, A, A+, A+, A, B+.
Ferrothorn: B, A-, A-, A, A, A+.
Gengar: A, A, A-, A, B+, D.
Heatran: A-, A, A+, A+, A+, A+.
Hippowdon: C-, B-, B, B+, A, A+.
Kyurem-B: A-, A+, A+, A`+, A-, B-.
Landorus-T: A-, A+, A+, A+, A, A-.
Latios: A, A+, A+, A+, A-, C.
Terrakion: A+, A, A-, A-, B+, C.
Tyranitar: B+, A-, A+, A, B+, B-.
MVenusaur: C+, A-, A+, A+, A+, S.

Chansey: E, E, D, C+, A, S.
Latias: B-, B+, A-, A, A-, B.
Mamoswine: B, B+, A-, A-, B, C+.
Manaphy: B, A, A+, A+, A-, B-.
Mandibuzz: D, C+, B, A-, A, A+.
Rotom-W: B+, A, A, A, A-, B-.
Skarmory: D, B-, B, A-, A, S.
Zapdos: B, A-, A, A-, A-, B.

And for other ranks, I will show cases that aren't well represented or have appeared recently:
-MGarchomp: B-, A-, A, A, B+, C.
-MMedicham: A-, A-, B, B+, C+, D.
-Quagsire: E, E, E, D, B-, A+.
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Or we could not over-complicate things.
 
escarlata said:
Apologie for the misuse of terms, when I said revenge killer I meant sweep stopper and I've just changed the mentions to sweep stopper (though technically the point of revenge killing is to stop sweeps). Sharpedo doesn't have to take hits because nothing at late game outspeeds it anyway. Waterfall and Crunch has very good type coverage so it can run one of Destiny Bond/Aqua Jet/Ice Beam/Zen Headbutt to deal with threats it couldn't. With Destiny Bond, it is almost never deadweight against most teams, which already makes it less situational than most other C+ rank. So unless there is something that really makes it pale in comparison to other C+ Pokemon, I'm not really convinced that it should drop lower.
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Or instead of running a "sweep stopper", as you say it, you can run a Revenge Killer or a Wall instead?

Water/Dark coverage is terrible in GenVI OU thanks to this being resisted by too many of the Dragons, Fairies, and Water types who are very commonly seen in the tier. Even with the coverage moves you suggested, it doesn't guarantee Sharpedo a kill, making it a deadweight against most teams. (Stall, for example, runs at least two walls who can ignore Sharpedo and kill it with status (or even OHKO it by just plain attacking). What's the point of running a Glass Cannon who can't even revenge kill properly?

If you really want a counter to Set-up Sweepers, why not run Unaware Clefable or Unaware Quagsire? They can actually switch into sweepers, can actually afford to run status (even while attacking, in Quagsire's case, via Scald), have recovery, and can still inflict significant damage with their attacks.
 
I would use Crawdaunt over Sharpedo any day. Crawdaunt can boost and even then is a lot stronger unboosted (Sharpedo doesn't even get Knock Off) and has stronger STABs and Adaptability, plus it can live any priority in OU except Talonbird and Mach Punch with its decent defense.
 
the-bumper-car said:
Or instead of running a "sweep stopper", as you say it, you can run a Revenge Killer or a Wall instead?

Water/Dark coverage is terrible in GenVI OU thanks to this being resisted by too many of the Dragons, Fairies, and Water types who are very commonly seen in the tier.
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No comment on the rest of your post, but there is exactly 1 OU viable dragon (Hydreigon) and 1 OU viable fairy (Azumarill) that resist both Sharpedo's water STAB and his dark STAB. So it seems silly to say "too many Dragons, Fairies wall his STABs."
 
JebusChrist said:
No comment on the rest of your post, but there is exactly 1 OU viable dragon (Hydreigon) and 1 OU viable fairy (Azumarill) that resist both Sharpedo's water STAB and his dark STAB. So it seems silly to say "too many Dragons, Fairies wall his STABs."
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It still means if Sharpedo's user predicts wrong he's letting one of the Dragons, Fairies, and Water types to come in mostly unscathed and either OHKO him back, or, worse, set-up in his face.
 
JebusChrist said:
No comment on the rest of your post, but there is exactly 1 OU viable dragon (Hydreigon) and 1 OU viable fairy (Azumarill) that resist both Sharpedo's water STAB and his dark STAB. So it seems silly to say "too many Dragons, Fairies wall his STABs."
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Well, Dreigon isn't exactly viable anymore. It's about to either be removed, or go to D. But Azumarill is correct.
 
the-bumper-car said:
Or instead of running a "sweep stopper", as you say it, you can run a Revenge Killer or a Wall instead?
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Tell that to Thundurus-I, whose most best set runs Thunder Wave for the pure sake of preventing sweeps as well as making itself harder to revenge. And no, Thundurus does not completely outclass Sharpedo in that role because in order to stop sweeps, it has to risk the target bypassing paralysis.

the-bumper-car said:
It still means if Sharpedo's user predicts wrong he's letting one of the Dragons, Fairies, and Water types to come in mostly unscathed and either OHKO him back, or, worse, set-up in his face.
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You can practically make the prediction argument on both sides. Sharpedo has the freedom to switch moves so not like as if it has to predict much. Just hit whatever is in front of you with whatever is ideal. Mixed sets with Ice Beam shits on Dragons that try to switch on it. You are seriously underestimating the power of 120 atk with an adamant nature backed with a life orb. For starters, Adamant Waterfall from Sharpedo hurts more than Jolly Garchomp's Dragon Claw. Heck it can even run a set with Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse, Ice Beam to lure in physical walls. 95 SAtk isn't terrible by any means given a Modest nature which it can afford to run. It hits harder than Greninja for one, and like Greninja, many hyper offense team also struggle with Sharpedo after their priority users are removed.

Being the fastest Destiny Bond user means if it cannot accomplish a late game sweep, it usually doesn't go down alone. They can set up all they want, but you still don't lose out in speed often due to speed boost. Destiny Bond + Speed Boost + bad bulk is basically a 'super sucker punch'. Destiny Bond is a big part of why it is less dead weight against most team, and makes it more reliable than most C+ ranked mons. So dropping Sharpedo means practically everything in C+ has to drop too since something that is actually better than them dropped.
 
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I thought of this as soon as a saw the recent tier update, but didn't get around to posting it till now. Whimsicott has been removed.

Now, Whimsicott may not be meta defining but I believe it's niche is far more useful than those of other Pokemon in the lower ranks.
575.png

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Encore
- U-turn
- Leech Seed/Taunt/Tailwind
- Leech Seed/Taunt/Tailwind

With the addition of Fairy, Whimsicott has gotten a good defensive typing with resistances to Fighting and Dark, Immunity to Dragon and a neutrality to Bug in addition to it's existing resistances to Ground and Water with Steel being the only common physical type which is super effective on it. This makes it a great check to physical set-up. Some points on how Whimsicott can be effective in this meta,
  • Prankster Taunt beats Deo-D and Baton Pass.
  • Beats Stall.
  • Can switch in to a set-up, Encore, and U-Turn to scout the switch, gaining momentum. Could even Leech Seed the switch-in before a U-Turn/switch to an appropriate check.
  • Can switch in to any Dragon attack and Encore it.
  • Is a solid check to M-Gyarados, resisting Waterfall and EQ and coming in to Encore a DD. Predicting the Whimsicott switch and using Ice Fang doesn't 2HKO.
  • Prankster Tailwind provides excellent support.
  • With specially defensive investment, would be an acceptable check to Keldeo, and we all know of the lack of checks to Keldeo.

Now, I know that even with investment Whimsicott isn't what you would call very bulky, and though it has Leech Seed with Leftovers, it's not exactly reliable recovery against offensive teams, but more than being a hit-taker it's a buffer to prevent your team being set up on. It's teammates can comfortably KO Pokemon without having to worry about being set up on by something else, which is really helpful in the current offensive meta. Now, say they predict your Whimsicott switch and use an attacking move instead of setting up. Whimsicott can take the hit and Leech Seed if it can take another, or Prankster Tailwind if it can't. Dying on the Tailwind turn, it gives a teammate all four turns of Tailwind. x2 speed Mega Heracross, Medicham, Charizard-Y become monstrous threats to the other team and are often worth sacking your Whimsicott for. Even a Whimsicott in the party at extremely low HP can turn the game around with a Tailwind.

Whimsicott certainly deserves to be ranked, and I personally feel it deserves a decent rank, I'd say C+. Almost all the Pokemon ranked C+ and below are either ineffective in the meta or outclassed. Whimsicott provides unique meta-specific niches. Just because it's not common doesn't mean it doesn't have potential.

Edit: Also has access to Memento, as mentioned to me by Flamebot
 
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Karxrida said:
Gengar can do the exact same thing, is faster, and can carry Black Sludge so it can Sub more than 3 times. It's also immune to Toxic and Ground attacks thanks to Levitate.

God Gengar's so awesome at fucking over Stall even without his MEvo...
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and if you really need something with prankster, sableye can do almost everything m-banette can in terms of stallbreaking -- and gets prankster recover too

while m-banette by itself isn't bad, it would've been much better as a regular evolution since it's not worth the mega slot
 
Agreeing with those who say clefable should drop. What good is versatility and amazing abilities when you're too frail, too slow and don't hit hard enough? Clefable can't have both abilities at the same time, which means it will either be vulnerable to entry hazards or not be able to stop setup sweepers at the same time (Mega Pinsir, Mega Zard X, Aegislash, etc etc etc.). I guess Clefable does have a great typing... until you realize Cosmic Power sets are setup bait for anything that isn't weak to fairy. Steels, especially Ferrothorn and Aegislash, shit on Clefable w/o Fire Blast and can also set up on it. The Wish set is outclassed by Chansey, who has retarded special bulk and higher physical bulk than Swampert (I guess Clefable does have offensive presence, but 85 is pretty bad).

Clefable for A-
 
Nominating Shuckle for B--B Rank.

I know a lot of people will disagree with this but, like Deo-D, not much can stop Shuckle from setting up both SR and SW. Unlike Deo-D, Shuckle can take so many more hits due to its invested defences (Washtom 3hkos, for example). Not only that, it supports Bisharp even more as SW lowers speed meaning that Bisharp does not have to rely on (Suck)er Punch as much. Combine that with a decent support movepool not limited to Encore, Infestation, Power Split, Toxic and you have an amazing Hazard setter. To the people saying "It's outclassed by Deoxys-D though", not really. Better typing, better bulk and Sticky Web carve out a very respectable niche for itself, C+ is underselling it too much.

Also to people who want to demote Clefable, you seriously are not using it correctly. Unaware CM stops most Sweepers while easily sweeping endgame and Magic Guard CM destroys stall once Quags gone and VenuTran's weakened. Look at the list of counters to it, Venusaur can be beaten easily enough, Chansey can be set up on, only Heatran can reliably beat it. Clefable stays
 
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DoABarrelRoll said:
Agreeing with those who say clefable should drop. What good is versatility and amazing abilities when you're too frail, too slow and don't hit hard enough? Clefable can't have both abilities at the same time, which means it will either be vulnerable to entry hazards or not be able to stop setup sweepers at the same time (Mega Pinsir, Mega Zard X, Aegislash, etc etc etc.). I guess Clefable does have a great typing... until you realize Cosmic Power sets are setup bait for anything that isn't weak to fairy. Steels, especially Ferrothorn and Aegislash, shit on Clefable w/o Fire Blast and can also set up on it. The Wish set is outclassed by Chansey, who has retarded special bulk and higher physical bulk than Swampert (I guess Clefable does have offensive presence, but 85 is pretty bad).

Clefable for A-
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Umm...Clefable isn't anywhere near frail. 95/73/90 is quite bulky. Also, unaware is typically the superior abilty, but 1. Aegislash should NEVER use stance dance, and 2, Char-X and Pinsir aren't being stopped by clefable. And you should NEVER, EVER, EVER use a cosmic power set. And Chansey has absolutely no place on balance, let alone offense. Also, clefable has base 95 special attack, which with calm mind, is significant offensive presence. You CLEARLY don't know clefable.
 
If you're playing against stall, switch to Clefable as soon as your opponent brings in Chansey for the first time. If he's feeling lucky and tries to Toxic you (given that you play Magic Guard), it might very well be a 6-0 sweep after that. I've PP-stalled both Chansey and Quagsire out of Recovery moves on my way to 6-0 Clefable sweeps. Clefable also has the added bonus of having a super-derpy face. Imagine being swept by something that looks so retarded, it only adds to the terror.
 
Flamer said:
Nominating Shuckle for B--B Rank.

I know a lot of people will disagree with this but, like Deo-D, not much can stop Shuckle from setting up both SR and SW. Unlike Deo-D, Shuckle can take so many more hits due to its invested defences (Washtom 3hkos, for example). Not only that, it supports Bisharp even more as SW lowers speed meaning that Bisharp does not have to rely on (Suck)er Punch as much. Combine that with a decent support movepool not limited to Encore, Infestation, Power Split, Toxic and you have an amazing Hazard setter. To the people saying "It's outclassed by Deoxys-D though", not really. Better typing, better bulk and Sticky Web carve out a very respectable niche for itself, C+ is underselling it too much.

Also to people who want to demote Clefable, you seriously are not using it correctly. Unaware CM stops most Sweepers while easily sweeping endgame and Magic Guard CM destroys stall once Quags gone and VenuTran's weakened. Look at the list of counters to it, Venusaur can be beaten easily enough, Chansey can be set up on, only Heatran can reliably beat it. Clefable stays
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I totally agree with what you said about clefable not being used correctly and this can go for many other pokes, especially on the bottom of the ladder. Also about the quagsire thing I'm not even sure if i would consider that a wall since i've seen stored power used on clefable and that can easily 2hko quagsire when u get a good amount of boosts.
 
TheWyvernKing said:
I totally agree with what you said about clefable not being used correctly and this can go for many other pokes, especially on the bottom of the ladder. Also about the quagsire thing I'm not even sure if i would consider that a wall since i've seen stored power used on clefable and that can easily 2hko quagsire when u get a good amount of boosts.
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I posted it because its the most common Unaware user on Stall and the only thing stopping Clefable from snowballing everything on stall when it gets to +6 (Which isn't hard). Stored Power is another option I guess but its a pretty gimmicky set and not worth it the majority of the time.
 
Flamer said:
I posted it because its the most common Unaware user on Stall and the only thing stopping Clefable from snowballing everything on stall when it gets to +6 (Which isn't hard). Stored Power is another option I guess but its a pretty gimmicky set and not worth it the majority of the time.
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I feel like stored power is a good choice for the last slot considering it's one of the only ways clefable can get past heatran without using hp ground and it also helps with many other defensive behemoths like venusaur.
 
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