Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Baharoth]

All valid points. But you don't have to run Sharp or Slash. they're very good at their jobs granted, but they have counters (even if Aegi beats most of his) and checks. If you run them, you run the risk of being hard countered by a team who's adapted to the most common Pokemon in the tier (which is hard countered to a team that's adapted to that particular team archtype ETC.) Of course that's me being paranoid and Anti-Meta

Thats exactly my point, you have to run them otherwise Deoxys is just wasting its time. Stacking Spikes is worthless if you cant protect them somehow and Spikes are the main reason to use Deoxys, if its just for SR you could use Garchomp or any other offensive SR setter. Deoxys doesnt need any support to do its job (setting up hazards) but it needs support to give that job any value i.e keep those hazards on the field.

If enough support is presented about changing their ranks i am sure that Gary will change his stance, so don't worry about this.

Doubt it but fine. Imo Espeon and Scolipede are very similar cases to Deoxys-D. They work exeptionally well on one specific archetype providing invaluable support for their team without giving free turns. They dont even need support to do their job, Scolipede doesnt need support to accumulate speed and def boosts and pass them to another team member and Espeon doesnt need support to block phazing and stuff, though it needs support to attempt a sweep. Because of that they would deserve a similar rank, meaning somewhere in the A ranks for Espeon and A+ or even S Rank for Scolipede depending on how influential it is on the meta. I am not running into BP that much so I would put it into A+ but thats just me.

The rest of the BP stables can stay where they are imo as they arent that important for the team as the other 2.
Sylveon and Vaporeon are basicly just some kind of redundance and Mr. Mime and Smeargle arent that important for the team to work and all 4 of them could be replaced by other mons.

Well, when I say "cleric," I'm generally talking about Heal Bell. Whether it has Wish or not is another story.

Your right, I messed up the definitions because usually Wish and Heal Bell are found on the same mon.

The thing is, that's kinda debatable. Keep in mind that Sylveon has less physical bulk than Clefable does, and while it's special bulk is better, it's not like it has a field day with most special attackers like Chansey does. Assuming a physically defensive spread, it's in danger of a 2HKO from LO Latios's Psyshock after Stealth Rock, guaranteed with a little prior damage. You beat Latias, though. Aegislash smashes with Iron Head or Flash Cannon while Sylveon does little back. Charizard Y still 2HKOs with Fire Blast. You can beat Thundurus, but if it has Nasty Plot, it sets up and 2HKOs while you do 65% max in return. Unaware Clefable doesn't have that problem. Heatran is Heatran. Keldeo's LO Hydro Pump has a shot at 2HKOing, guaranteed with Stealth Rock or Specs > LO. You can beat Greninja from full health, but like Latios, you still take a ton of damage and have a small shot at being 2HKOed even after Stealth Rock. 0 SpA Mega Venusaur's Sludge Bomb is a 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and even without, it can just spam Sludge Bomb until you get poisoned and then 2HKO that way. You do beat LO Deoxys-S. Landorus's Earth Power has a small chance to 2HKO with no prior damage, nearly guaranteed with a Modest nature or Stealth Rock. Sludge Wave variants outright win if you switch directly into an Earth Power or Psychic or something. Gengar's Sludge Bomb 2HKOs, and LO variants have a shot at OHKOing after Stealth Rock. Mega Gardevoir's Hyper Voice is a nearly guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. You beat Mega Manectric pretty handily. Mega Alakazam also has a decent chance to 2HKO with Psyshock after Stealth Rock. Survivable, but too close for comfort. Manaphy 2HKOs with Surf at +3, while Unaware Clefable can actually stop it. Volcarona just sets up all over you.

Thats exactly the reason why I wouldnt run a physical defensive spread on Sylveon. Its special bulk is good, but not good enough to leave it uninvested and expect it to take special hits like a champ. On the other hand, even with full investment its physical bulk is still sub par, hardly avoiding the 2hko from most physical attackers even with protect to get lefti recovery.
With a mixed or even pure special defensive spread however Sylveon can take every special attack you throw at it, including Charizards Fireblast and Specs Keldeos Hydro Pump. And pretty much everything weaker means you get a free wish. Especially Keldeo is Wish bait for Sylveon as it cant realy touch it and cant stay in on it at all. Clef on the other hand has a little more physical bulk but not that much more that it would matter and even fully specially defensive it cant take the hard hitters of the tier. Unaware on a Cleric/Wishpasser is imo a somewhat stupid idea tbh as it should be the job of such a pokemon to support its team with Heal Bell/Wishes and not to wall of boosting sweepers, not to mention that Clefable cant wall most of the common boosting sweepers of the tier even with Unaware. Pinsir, Zard X, Tyranitar all walk over it so does everything with a Life Orb or Choice Band.

Besides that, Sylveon's other advantage is more damage, but it's not like it's wallbreaking any time soon. Clefable can also solve its issues with special power and bulk with CM + Bell, which is obviously a legitimate set, but that's probably irrelevant since I think you're referring more to WishTect + Bell.

Its not supposed to wallbreak. But it can do severe damage to everything that doesnt resist it, even threatening to ohko several things that it hits for SE. And yes CM + Bell would be a good set for Clef. As stated before if its only about Heal Bell, Clefable is on a similar level, the wish passing is the problem imo.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

So Agent Gibbs basically said everything I wanted to say, except much better. I'd also like to add that of the mentions on that list, Clefable can avoid 2HKOs from Latios thanks to it's superior physical bulk and can bs it's way through Heatran with brute force. The fact that this monster has basically made special boosting obsolete except those whose boosts are crucial to their function (Manaphy, Volcarona, Crocune etc) is a testament to it's power. That superior on-paper special bulk for Sylveon is nothing more than a paper tiger, it doesn't actually help it survive against any notable special attackers Clefable would normally lose to, and that goes for the Wish+Protect variants of Clefable too, which to many is the lesser of Clefable's two clerics sets (note that Sylveon only has one).

252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 160-188 (40.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[BenTheDemon]

Charizard-Y definitely belongs back in the S rank.
Sun Boosted Fire Blasts from 159 base Special Attack is a nuke.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Sun: 170-201 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Even Keldeo is usually 2HKOed and it resists Fire Blast!
Also, the Sun makes Charizard-Y take neautral damage from Water moves. He also gets Solar Beam so Water Types aren't a problem!
Bottom Line: Charizard-Y is too strong to be in any rank but S.

 

[theV8man]

Charizard-Y definitely belongs back in the S rank.
Sun Boosted Fire Blasts from 159 base Special Attack is a nuke.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Sun: 170-201 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Even Keldeo is usually 2HKOed and it resists Fire Blast!
Also, the Sun makes Charizard-Y take neautral damage from Water moves. He also gets Solar Beam so Water Types aren't a problem!
Bottom Line: Charizard-Y is too strong to be in any rank but S.

And it takes 50% from stealth rocks each time it switches in. And dragon Pokemon (Latias, Dragonite) resist all of its moves. And even though it's a wallbreaker it can't break Chansey.

 

[BenTheDemon]

And it takes 50% from stealth rocks each time it switches in. And dragon Pokemon (Latias, Dragonite) resist all of its moves. And even though it's a wallbreaker it can't break Chansey.

True, but none of them appreciate a sun-boosted Fire Blast on the switch. And no Special Attacker can break Chansey.

And Charizard 2HKOs Dragonite if Multiscale is broken. (I used 75% HP on Dragonite since the calc considers Multiscale still active after Stealth Rock.)

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite in Sun: 156-185 (48.1 - 57%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

Here's a Calc to show that Latias doesn't appreciate Fire Blast either.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[alexwolf]

So Agent Gibbs basically said everything I wanted to say, except much better. I'd also like to add that of the mentions on that list, Clefable can avoid 2HKOs from Latios thanks to it's superior physical bulk and can bs it's way through Heatran with brute force. The fact that this monster has basically made special boosting obsolete except those whose boosts are crucial to their function (Manaphy, Volcarona, Crocune etc) is a testament to it's power. That superior on-paper special bulk for Sylveon is nothing more than a paper tiger, it doesn't actually help it survive against any notable special attackers Clefable would normally lose to, and that goes for the Wish+Protect variants of Clefable too, which to many is the lesser of Clefable's two clerics sets (note that Sylveon only has one). The only reason I'd use Sylveon over Clefable outside of a BP chain is it's ability to go through Substitute. Otherwise, it's completely outclassed. To suggest that Sylveon should be the same as, let alone higher than, Clefable on the viability ranking is absurd.

I don't want to get into the Clefable vs Sylveon debate, but the bolded phrase is false.

- 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%) -- 97.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 160-188 (40.6 - 47.7%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 218-257 (55.3 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 204-242 (51.7 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- 252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 191-226 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- Never a 2HKO (counting the SpA drop)
- 252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 263-309 (66.7 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 123-145 (31.2 - 36.8%) -- 77.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 39.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 121-144 (30.7 - 36.5%) -- 64.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable: 227-269 (57.6 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon in Rain: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Clefable in Rain: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Sylveon gets many more chances that Clefable to switch in and pass Wishes against special attackers such as SubToxic Aegislash, all out attacking Deoxys-S, Thunder Wave + 3 attacks LO Thundurus, Sub Kyurem-B, Mega Manectric, and Tornadus-T, amongst others, but those are the most important. I posted the Kingdra calc to show how Sylveon can survive one hit from Kingdra if the need arises and OHKO back, as Specs Kingdra under rain is a a very hard Pokemon to deal with. You can nitpick all you want about Clefable being able to avoid the 2HKO from some of those Pokemon with Magic Guard or Protect, but at the end of the day, Sylveon can switch against all those Pokemon much more easier and reliably, to the point where it can hard check them (i don't say counter, because Wish + Protect is not the most reliable way of healing).

And of course, Sylveon's extra power and ability to hit through Subs matters a lot. Be it SubDD Mega Gyarados, Sub Kyurem-B, or SubToxic Gliscor, the Sub negating effect is great.

 

[QuickBH]

True, but none of them appreciate a sun-boosted Fire Blast on the switch. And no Special Attacker can break Chansey.

+6 Mega Mewtwo Y lel.

He still gets hardchecked by the majority of Pokemon that outspeed a Modest Zard Y (which isn't hard) and demands defog support, not appreciates, if it wants to be useful at all. This combined with getting revenge killed extremely easily deserves Zard Y to become A+ due to being an amazing wallbreaker but it isn't as meta changing nor not demanding support such as Thundurus and Aegislash.

 

[Karxrida]

Charizard-Y definitely belongs back in the S rank.
Sun Boosted Fire Blasts from 159 base Special Attack is a nuke.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo in Sun: 170-201 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Even Keldeo is usually 2HKOed and it resists Fire Blast!
Also, the Sun makes Charizard-Y take neautral damage from Water moves. He also gets Solar Beam so Water Types aren't a problem!
Bottom Line: Charizard-Y is too strong to be in any rank but S.

It dropped in rank because all it does is nuke one thing before dying and the fact that it has like one set while X has 3+ and fucks more shit up. Also the only way it can break Chansey is to run a mixed set with Flare Blitz (causes you to kill yourself if you take SR damage) or Focus Punch.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 202-238 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 333-393 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed after SR)
252 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 294-348 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[theV8man]

True, but none of them appreciate a sun-boosted Fire Blast on the switch. And no Special Attacker can break Chansey.

Landorus breaks it. Reuniclus breaks it. These are special attackers who have mixed coverage to push past Chansey, unlike Charizard. It's been said before, Charizard-Y is not an S rank Pokemon.

 

[Rotosect]

It dropped in rank because all it does is nuke one thing before dying and the fact that it has like one set while X has 3+ and fucks more shit up. Also the only way it can break Chansey is to run a mixed set with Flare Blitz (causes you to kill yourself if you take SR damage) or Focus Punch.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 202-238 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 333-393 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed after SR)
252 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 294-348 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Of course if you're going to run Flare Blitz on Megazard Y just to deal with Chansey, you might as well run Megazard X at that point. The surprise factor only works once, and since Chansey is barely 2HKO'd while Megazard Y is taking massive recoil damage, overall it's not a great idea.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Landorus breaks it. Reuniclus breaks it. These are special attackers who have mixed coverage to push past Chansey, unlike Charizard. It's been said before, Charizard-Y is not an S rank Pokemon.

Don't forget Keldeo. I'd use it over Charizard-Y all day.

Latios can also give Chansey trouble if she switches into Psyshock.

And Gengar can troll Chansey hard with the Sub-Taunt set.

Zard Y is simply stopped by special walls.

 

[BenTheDemon]

It dropped in rank because all it does is nuke one thing before dying and the fact that it has like one set while X has 3+ and fucks more shit up. Also the only way it can break Chansey is to run a mixed set with Flare Blitz (causes you to kill yourself if you take SR damage) or Focus Punch.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 202-238 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Charizard Y Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 333-393 (47.3 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed after SR)
252 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 372-438 (52.8 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 294-348 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I don't know how you've been playing MegaZard-Y, but Mine usually nukes more than one thing.

Also if being walled by one thing makes something not worthy for S, then let's drop Aegislash since it's walled by Mandibuzz, and let's drop Zard-X because it's walled by Heatran.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Sylveon gets many more chances that Clefable to switch in and pass Wishes against special attackers such as SubToxic Aegislash, all out attacking Deoxys-S, Thunder Wave + 3 attacks LO Thundurus, Sub Kyurem-B, Mega Manectric, and Tornadus-T, amongst others, but those are the most important. I posted the Kingdra calc to show how Sylveon can survive one hit from Kingdra if the need arises and OHKO back, as Specs Kingdra under rain is a a very hard Pokemon to deal with. You can nitpick all you want about Clefable being able to avoid the 2HKO from some of those Pokemon with Magic Guard or Protect, but at the end of the day, Sylveon can switch against all those Pokemon much more easier and reliably, to the point where it can hard check them (i don't say counter, because Wish + Protect is not the most reliable way of healing).

This is true, but most of those calculations require Sylveon to either Protect to heal itself or switch out to pass the Wish to a teammate and be left with too little health to reliably switch into anything else. If the main criteria of a good Wish passer is the ability to switch in and tank hits easily enough to pass Wishes without worrying about its own health (as was implied earlier), then Sylveon isn't doing all that wonderfully either.

With a mixed or even pure special defensive spread however Sylveon can take every special attack you throw at it, including Charizards Fireblast and Specs Keldeos Hydro Pump. And pretty much everything weaker means you get a free wish. Especially Keldeo is Wish bait for Sylveon as it cant realy touch it and cant stay in on it at all. Clef on the other hand has a little more physical bulk but not that much more that it would matter and even fully specially defensive it cant take the hard hitters of the tier.

Okay, but if you're going to run specially defensive Sylveon, then the two become hardly comparable anymore. Clefable's best sets are physically defensive, and at that point they stop checking the same things altogether.

Unaware on a Cleric/Wishpasser is imo a somewhat stupid idea tbh as it should be the job of such a pokemon to support its team with Heal Bell/Wishes and not to wall of boosting sweepers, not to mention that Clefable cant wall most of the common boosting sweepers of the tier even with Unaware. Pinsir, Zard X, Tyranitar all walk over it so does everything with a Life Orb or Choice Band.

Why can't it do both? Besides NP Thundurus and CM Keldeo, are there any other setup sweepers that Calm Mind would help beat? Because otherwise, you could check the same sweepers with a WishTect + Bell set that you would with another Unaware set. Also, Mega Tyranitar doesn't exactly "walk over" Clefable. Stone Edge barely has any chance to 2HKO even while Sand is still up, and as long as Clefable doesn't switch directly into Stone Edge, it can wear Tyranitar down slowly with Moonblast while healing itself as needed. Life Orb also isn't always a given on a boosting sweeper. For example, it's pretty rare on Garchomp, Dragonite, and Manaphy. And why would a boosting sweeper run Choice Band?

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I don't know how you've been playing MegaZard-Y, but Mine usually nukes more than one thing.

Also if being walled by one thing makes something not worthy for S, then let's drop Aegislash since it's walled by Mandibuzz, and let's drop Zard-X because it's walled by Heatran.

It's also failry easily revenge killed. Thundurus, Landorus, and scarfer with rock moves (many of them have rock moves), Latios ...

And when something is easy to revenge kill and takes 50% from rocks, it becomes hard to use it for too long.

At least Zard X minds rocks less and can Dragon Dance, so it's harder to RK.

 

[Karxrida]

I don't know how you've been playing MegaZard-Y, but Mine usually nukes more than one thing.

It's kind of hard to nuke things more than once when you're easy as fuck to revenge kill.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 330-393 (110.7 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Non-Life Orb sets have a small chance to OHKO or can use T-Wave on you)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 271-319 (90.9 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (Any prior damage and you die to Pursuit or it Dragon Dances as you switch out)
0 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 282-332 (94.6 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (Sub+3 Attacks lives unless you're Modest or you have SR up, which isn't likely because Y needs a Defogger)
Latios can 2HKO before you can.
Terrakion, Scarfed Lando-T, and Garchomp all fuck you.
Keldeo and Bisharp win if SR is up.
Zard X sets up in front of you for free.

 

[BenTheDemon]

It's also failry easily revenge killed. Thundurus, Landorus, and scarfer with rock moves (many of them have rock moves), Latios ...

And when something is easy to revenge kill and takes 50% from rocks, it becomes hard to use it for too long.

At least Zard X minds rocks less and can Dragon Dance, so it's harder to RK.

There's this thing called switching. And Zard-X doesn't want to lose its boosts.
Zard-Y doesn't rely on boosts, so it can switch more freely if Stealth Rock isn't up. If it is up, that's why you should carry Spin/Defog support.

 

[alexwolf]

This is true, but most of those calculations require Sylveon to either Protect to heal itself or switch out to pass the Wish to a teammate and be left with too little health to reliably switch into anything else. If the main criteria of a good Wish passer is the ability to switch in and tank hits easily enough to pass Wishes without worrying about its own health (as was implied earlier), then Sylveon isn't doing all that wonderfully either.

Any Wish passer not named Alomomola has to decide between healing itself or its teammates when facing opponents that can 3HKO it, that's not unique to Sylveon. However, depending on which Pokemon on the opposing team are more threatening, Sylveon allows you to heal an important Pokemon of yours that got weakened (one that can check said dangerous threats that the opponent has), at the cost of its own health, which is fine if Sylveon is less important than the Pokemon you want to heal. The fact that Sylveon can successfully Wish pass against so threatening special attackers without even investing in Special Defense speaks on itself about Sylveon's special bulk.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

There's this thing called switching. And Zard-X doesn't want to lose its boosts.
Zard-Y doesn't rely on boosts, so it can switch more freely if Stealth Rock isn't up. If it is up, that's why you should carry Spin/Defog support.

That's the problem, rocks are everywhere, and Zard Y pratically requires spin/defog support to function. Without that, it can't switch freely.

With the amount of support it requires, it's hard to justify it being on S, the rank for pokemon who barely require support.

Any Wish passer not named Alomomola has to decide between healing itself or its teammates when facing opponents that can 3HKO it, that's not unique to Sylveon. However, depending on which Pokemon on the opposing team are more threatening, Sylveon allows you to heal an important Pokemon of yours that got weakened (one that can check said dangerous threats that the opponent has), at the cost of its own health, which is fine if Sylveon is less important than the Pokemon you want to heal. The fact that Sylveon can successfully Wish pass against so threatening special attackers without even investing in Special Defense speaks on itself about Sylveon's special bulk.

BTW, we really should rank Alomomola. Seriously.

 

[jbtc10]

I don't know how you've been playing MegaZard-Y, but Mine usually nukes more than one thing.

Also if being walled by one thing makes something not worthy for S, then let's drop Aegislash since it's walled by Mandibuzz, and let's drop Zard-X because it's walled by Heatran.

Zard-X almost always has Earthquake, so Heatran fails there. And the argument being made isn't just that Zard-Y is walled by the most common special wall (unlike other options like Keldeo and Lando-I), it's also that it's checked by a quite a large number of things too.

 

[Durant]

There's this thing called switching. And Zard-X doesn't want to lose its boosts.
Zard-Y doesn't rely on boosts, so it can switch more freely if Stealth Rock isn't up. If it is up, that's why you should carry Spin/Defog support.

Stealth Rock is almost always up so Charizard can't switch freely at all. And Charizard Y should be S because it can switch out on things that revenge kill it is also a lame excuse. Bad Pokemon like Luvdisc and Bidoof can switch out fo their checks and counters but that doesn't make them S does it. It has to carry Rapid Spin support meaning it needs more support than other S rank Pokemon. Charizard X also has a big Rock weakness but it loses moost of the weakness when mega evolves and almost always carries roost for health loss.

 

[QuickBH]

There's this thing called switching. And Zard-X doesn't want to lose its boosts.
Zard-Y doesn't rely on boosts, so it can switch more freely if Stealth Rock isn't up. If it is up, that's why you should carry Spin/Defog support.

DD Zard-X doesn't need to worry about switching since it will sweep your entire team. Everything you mention towards getting Zard Y to S rank has been debunked before and is getting debunked by others in this conversation now. Also please if you're going to have a debate about Zard Y don't be so vague, try bringing relevant specifics so your statements have more value.

 

[BenTheDemon]

Stealth Rock is almost always up so Charizard can't switch freely at all. And Charizard Y should be S because it can switch out on things that revenge kill it is also a lame excuse. Bad Pokemon like Luvdisc and Bidoof can switch out fo their checks and counters but that doesn't make them S does it. It has to carry Rapid Spin support meaning it needs more support than other S rank Pokemon. Charizard X also has a big Rock weakness but it loses moost of the weakness when mega evolves and almost always carries roost for health loss.

Stealth Rock is nowhere near as common as it was last Gen. And even if it were, it's easier than ever to remove.

 

[Gary]

Stealth Rock is nowhere near as common as it was last Gen. And even if it were, it's easier than ever to remove.

Lol actually SR is more common than ever this gen because of new threats Zard-Y, Zard-X, Talon, D-Nite (not new but still very common), Thundurus, Mega Pinsir, etc. Also the Deo forms are still around both of which are pretty much staples on a lot of HO teams, as well as Garchomp, Mamo, and Tyranitar, and they all get up SR very easily. Pretty much every stall teams needs them as well or else they're going to have a lot more issues with wallbreakers such as Kyurem-B and Landorus who could keep switching in and out without worries. Why do you think Defog and Excadrill are so good at the moment? Because they remove SR lol. I've yet to see any really good team that lacks SR, it's just that important, and so easy to fit onto a team I see no reason why you wouldn't use it on every single team you make. It's like a check to a bunch of Pokemon in itself.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Any Wish passer not named Alomomola has to decide between healing itself or its teammates when facing opponents that can 3HKO it, that's not unique to Sylveon. However, depending on which Pokemon on the opposing team are more threatening, Sylveon allows you to heal an important Pokemon of yours that got weakened (one that can check said dangerous threats that the opponent has), at the cost of its own health, which is fine if Sylveon is less important than the Pokemon you want to heal. The fact that Sylveon can successfully Wish pass against so threatening special attackers without even investing in Special Defense speaks on itself about Sylveon's special bulk.

Yeah, I get that, but one of the arguments against Clefable as a Wish passer that was used in an earlier post was that it gets 3HKOed to easily. Essentially, they were saying that it needs its own Wish to heal itself too much to safely pass it to teammates. My point is that Sylveon suffers the same problem since even many special attackers still 3HKO or more. This is also why I alluded to Chansey in an earlier post because I honestly find it to be a far better Wish passer than either of them anyway. Unlike the other two, it actually laughs at a pretty solid number of special attackers to the point where it can Wish pass without concern to its own well-being and has a secondary recovery move for itself, but I digress.

Again, I'm not trying to say that Clefable is a phenomenal WishTect + Bell user or that Sylveon is a bad one. Like I said earlier, I could even understand why you might consider Sylveon to pull off that set better. All I'm saying is that Clefable does have perks to running such a set, and it is not garbage or overwhelmingly outclassed at that role like a few users have implied or outright stated.

 

[alexwolf]

Yeah, I get that, but one of the arguments against Clefable as a Wish passer that was used in an earlier post was that it gets 3HKOed to easily. Essentially, they were saying that it needs its own Wish to heal itself too much to safely pass it to teammates. My point is that Sylveon suffers the same problem since even many special attackers still 3HKO or more. This is also why I alluded to Chansey in an earlier post because I honestly find it to be far better of a Wish passer anyway. Unlike the other two, it actually laughs at a pretty solid number of special attackers to the point where it can Wish pass without concern to its own well-being and has a secondary recovery move for itself, but I digress.

Again, I'm not trying to say that Clefable is a great WishTect + Bell user or that Sylveon is a bad one. Like I said earlier, I could even understand why you might consider Sylveon to pull off that set better. All I'm saying is that Clefable does have perks to running such a set, and it is not garbage or overwhelmingly outclassed at that role like a few users have implied or outright stated.

All i wanted to say when i showed those calcs is that Sylveon can check special attackers that Clefable can't. Whether or not you want to spend Sylveon's time healing herself or its teammates depends on the situation, but at least Sylveon can avoid the 2HKO from many of the threats that Clefable can't and Wish pass to one of her teammates, even if it means getting severely weakened.