This. And not only does it perform mutliple roles well, it also causes some nasty mindgames. Wanna switch out into your counter? You might give your opponent free rocks or get hit really hard by Pursuit or a CB STAB on the switch. Wanna stay in and put some damage on this thing? Get outsped by ScarfTar or deal pitiful damage to a defensive variant. That plus the sand plus the possibility of Sand Rush Excadrill... Yeah TTar is really good. If you know its set, it can be worked around, but to get to know the set, you mostly have to make some sacrifices.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
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This. And not only does it perform mutliple roles well, it also causes some nasty mindgames. Wanna switch out into your counter? You might give your opponent free rocks or get hit really hard by Pursuit or a CB STAB on the switch. Wanna stay in and put some damage on this thing? Get outsped by ScarfTar or deal pitiful damage to a defensive variant. That plus the sand plus the possibility of Sand Rush Excadrill... Yeah TTar is really good. If you know its set, it can be worked around, but to get to know the set, you mostly have to make some sacrifices.
Krookodile is a very underrated threat in the current OU metagame, and it is kind of hard to see why. Krookodile has a solid defensive stat spread of 95 / 80 / 70, with a high base 117 Attack stat, and backed by Intimidate, its physical bulk sky rockets. Krookodile's unique typing gives it resistances to Rock-, Ghost-, and Dark-type moves, allowing it to be the perfect counter to Tyranitar, amongst other things. It also gives it an immunity to Electric- and Psychic-types, which can come in handy. The best drawing point of Krookodile is its STAB Knock Off and STAB Earthquake, both greatly spammable moves, being only resisted by Mandibuzz, Heracross, Chesnaught, Hydreigon, Togekiss, and Hawlucha in OU, the only common Pokemon of the aforementioned Pokemon being Mandibuzz and Chesnaught, with Heracross and Togekiss being a little less common. Krookodile's Knock Off cripples any of the Pokemon aforementioned bar Heracross and Hawlucha, as the lack of Leftovers, or Life Orb, in Hydreigon's case, really sucks. Taunt + Knock Off also effectively breaks Stall, especially Chansey. Krookodile also has access to a variety of support moves such as Stealth Rock, Taunt, and Dragon Tail, while it can attempt to pull off an offensive set thanks to Moxie. Moxie Krookodile has fallen out of favor from last generation, but this by no means means it is bad, as with 252+, it hits 466 Speed, outspeeding all base 90 Scarfers and every Pokemon unboosted bar Deoxys-S. Krookodile can also provide Pursuit support, although it is outclassed in this regard by Tyranitar.
Krookodile: C+ Rank -----> B- / B Rank
However, Krookodile has many crippling flaws that hold it back. Firstly, 92 Speed is a bit lacking for offensive sets and isn't too amazing for non-offensive sets. Next, its Special Defense is really bad, with only a stat of 70, leaving it vulnerable to many special onslaughts. It's typing also gives it many common weaknesses such as Fighting-, Water-, Ice-, Fairy-, and Bug-type moves, along with the not as common Grass-type. Krookodile also suffers from four moveslot symptom, wanting to have any of Stealth Rock, Knock Off, Taunt, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Pursuit, Stone Edge, and Fire Fang for Ferrothorn and Skarmory. Krookodile's Attack isn't too awesome without investment as well, which can leave it set up on Pokemon even with Taunt. Krookodile is also shut down by Taunt, although it runs Taunt itself, many faster Taunters can prevent it from setting Stealth Rock or using its own Taunt. Krookodile's main issue is the weaknesses it haves, which really hold it back. Finally, Krookodile is often outclassed by other Ground-types such as Landorus-T (its main competition) and Hippowdown defensively, and Excadrill and Landorus-I offensively. Overall, though, Krookodile is a very good Pokemon with a really good niche, but it somewhat struggles in the current metagame and is left outclassed often, for these reasons, I think it should move up to B- or B.
Gengar is one of the best Pokemon in the OU metagame. It is very versatile, has three immunities, and looks badass as fuck. Gengar has two main sets: Utility Attacker and Destiny Bond. Let's first talk about the utility attacker set. This set focuses on Gengar playing mindgames with Substitute and truly breaking stall with Taunt, while also crippling many things with Will-O-Wisp. Shadow Ball is a very spammable solo-move as it is resisted by few types this generation and is just a great move in general. This set is easily Gengar's best and works so well in the current metagame. Next, Destiny Bond. Destiny Bond is a great set, being very powerful with Life Orb, and, thanks to Gengar's high base Speed, almost always guarantee one or two kills. Shadow Ball and Sludge Wave get great coverage, and combined with Focus Blast, give it flawless coverage and power. Gengar also has a lesser known set I'm fond of: TrickScarf. Choice Scarf Gengar outspeeds so much shit and can Trick it away to cripple a ton of things, while be a surprise Destiny Bond to prevent sweeps such as +1 Mega Charizard X and Choice Scarf Terrakion. Gengar has three great immunities: Ground-, Normal-, and Fighting-type immunities, while resisting Poison-, Bug-, Grass-, and Fairy-types, which can come very much in handy. Gengar is just so versatile, fast, and powerful, and has truly lived up to its being of being one of the very few Pokemon who's been OU for six generations in a row.
Gengar: A Rank -----> A+ Rank
Now, Gengar's shortcomings. Gengar is, to put it bluntly, piss-poor bulky. It's about as bulky as paper when it comes down to it, having 60 HP, 60 Defense, and an ok 75 Special Defense. Gengar struggles to fit all the moves it wants into its moveset, and it also lacks recovery, which really sucks when in conjunction with Substitute. Gengar also hates Pursuit, a common move, and with the omnipresence of Bisharp, Gengar took a massive hit. Gengar doesn't take any priority, it simply cannot take any. Gengar's general weakness to all Dark-type moves also sucks, along with the weakness to Ghost-type moves. Gengar can't even switch in on many neutral hits as well, which makes it troubling. Finally, Gengar is left outspeed by many common Pokemon such as Greninja, Thundurus, and Noivern. Overall, though, Gengar is so versatile, strong, and a very potent threat in OU, and for these reasons I believe it should move up to A+.
Gengar - As much as gengar is a great pokemon with great typing, good speed and sp.attack and a good ability aswell as a good moveset, it has its shortcomings. Gengar is a huge threat to stall with its utility attacker set which is by far its best and is can also be a pain for balanced and offence with momentum. Gengar can play around its supposed 'counter' bisharp with sub and wisp and completely shut it down. Gengar can wisp incoming ttar switchins and set as many subs as it wants against chansey. Gengar has an extremely spammable stab in shadow ball and a good speed tier which allows it to outspeed all base 100's up to base 108's. Although this might seem like gengar should move up, I think A is a good spot for it. Gengar can be revenge killed so easily by offence. With all offence packing a gren or thundy or deo s gengar is never going to be too much of a pain. Gengar is frail asf and gets no switch in opportunities on offence. Although gengar is a nightmare for stall it struggles against offencive teams, A is a great spot for it.
Yeah, Tyranitar should be A+. It's so good. It can do so any jobs well, at the same time, without your opponent even knowing what jobs it's going to do. It can set up rocks, or sand for Excadrill. It can break walls with CB. It can revenge kill with Scarf. It can wall with Assault Vest of Leftovers. It can pursuit trap. And worse, it can mega evolve and sweep your ass. This pokemon also benefits from the Charizard effect: it has two formes, and you don't know what forme it's going to be, the Mega DD sweeper, or the non-mega jack of all trades.
Subject 18, I am not saying Dpulse is a good idea, I'm saying good people use Dpulse. Also, w/l doesn't really matter, as it if you actually read Antar's guide on ratings, w/l doesn't make you good, rating does. If I play against 100 crappy people and win 75 games and lose 25, then what am I really that much better than someone who wins 60 and loses 40 to good players?
tl;dr
I am not arguing that usage stats indicate what is good and what is not good, but rather what is being used, hence the name.
tl;dr
I am not arguing that usage stats indicate what is good and what is not good, but rather what is being used, hence the name.
Since Tyranitar and its Mega share the same tier and analysis, why not group them together?
Edit: I can achieve the same effect with Choice Scarf and Defensive Tyranitar, RotomPoison. They're deemed equally viable now, unlike the other Mega Pokemon and their base, so I see no reason as to why they shouldn't be grouped up.
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Because (even though imo this system is a bit flawed) megas sometimes fill completely different roles are almost entirely outclass the base form. If Mega and normal Tyranitar are in the same rank, it is because they are equally effective but in different ways (see examples on non viable base Pokemon such as Ampharos)
Edit: to clarify, I mean that sometimes the base form is not viable on its own but the mega form is
I kind of disagree with some of the more recent changes concerning the D and C rank Pokemon.
This thing sucks really bad, but I think it fits the D rank pretty well. It's mediocre, but if it gets a Competitive boost it will at least be able to deal quite a bit of damage to most Pokemon, especially most defoggers since it gets Ice-type moves. Without the boost it's dead weight and is horrible, similarly to the ways that Pokemon such as Mr. Mime and Cloyster function; if the opponent has a Pokemon that they counter/check, they could easily be a good Pokemon in a match, but unless the opponent does have that Pokemon, it's horrible. It's not really outclassed by much as a special defog "blocker," but Bisharp and Thundurus are better choices for ones, although if your team can't afford to use either one of them for whatever reason, Milotic is your next best bet.
I think Whimsicott should be a D rank Pokemon as well. It can support Pokemon pretty well, but it's pretty horrible due to a lack of any offensive stats whatsoever. That makes it outclassed, but it can still function properly on teams that need its support.
Meloetta is nice with its ability to change formes, support the team by functioning as a cleric, and checking/countering one of the most common Pokemon, Aegislash. I'd say it isn't quite as niche as most of the Pokemon in D, and that it should go back in C-.
I think Trick Room is a bit better than you're giving it credit for. Cofagrigus can burn or toxic many Pokemon and then nail them with Hex, which is a 65/130 BP STAB move coming off of a 95 base Special Attack. While a lack of recovery is a big downside, I still think it deserves to be higher than D. It can move first on both Aegislash and Bisharp and either hit them with Hex/Shadow Ball (Aegislash) or cripple them with a Burn (Bisharp). Their priorirty won't OHKO it either, insuring that it will always 2HKO Aegislash or get a burn on Bisharp. Similarly, Reuniclus will move first on both of them, doesn't get KOed by their priority, and can hit them hard with a Shadow Ball or Focus Blast. I think they should both be C.
XL Considering there was someone advocating this to move up a rank, I think it at least deserves to be D. Basically it can set up Trick Room and either cripple or kill about every opposing lead, turning the battle into a 5 vs 5 instead of 6 vs 6. While this might not seem like much at first, it means that your team has one less Pokemon to deal with, and that that Pokemon could have caused a problem for your other five Pokemon. It's much easier to wall or prevent yourself from being walled by 5 Pokemon than 6.
Yes, please drop to D. There are much better counters to Rotom-Wash and Knock Off.
I don't think Snorlax is really that bad. It's still a strong physical attacker with good coverage, as well as great defenses. C seems fine for it IMHO.
Thundurus-T is way better than Thundurus on rain teams IMO. Its special attack is noticeably bigger than Thundurus's, and an electric immunity is way better than an electric neutrality, especially for a team who likely has at least 3 Pokemon with electric weaknesses. Rain doesn't really have time for Thundurus's Prankster Taunt/Thunder Wave shenanigans, there's not much of a reason to use physical Defiant Thundurus, and special-attacking Thundurus are outclassed by Thunudurus-T for the most part. Incarnate Thundurus is mostly outclassed by Therian Thundurus, Therian Tornadus, and Incarnate Tornadus on rain teams for the most part. I believe Thundurus-T belongs back in B-.
Bulky waters are bulky. Alomomola passes huge wishes, cripples stuff with Knock Off and Scald, surprise KOes special attackers with Mirror Coat. Mantine has great special bulk that allows it to counter special wallbreakers nicely. IMO these niches grant them places in D or C-. Swampert I think is a bit of good but unexplored territory this generation, as it still has nice defenses that allow it to counter many S and A rank threats depending on whether it decides to invest in special or physical bulk, the ability to act as a phazer that sets up stealth rocks and toxic spreader, and moves such as Scald and Earthquake that allow it to beat other defensive Pokemons' checks and counters. Its main downside is that you can't really use Quagsire and it on the same team, although its better defenses, offenses, and movepool give it a few boons over Quagsire. I don't know where it should go, though.
Empoleon, however, shouldn't be ranked IMO. What does it really even do? As a Defiant user it's outclassed, as a Defog user it's outclassed, as a special attacker with water STAB it's outclassed . . . Not to mention that the Pokemon that outclass it are some of the easiest to fit onto a team and you should never be pressed to fit those three roles into a single teamslot.
Just saying that before ranking changes are made, I think they should be brought up in this thread and on the other one first before they're just made, I understand that you guys usually discuss stuff via PM or IRC or whatever before making changes, but since I just made this huge post for a ton of the changes that were made that weren't discussed here (AFAIK), it might be nice since I feel like this post is going to clutter up the thread, which is also why I made the text size smaller. Note that I haven't rigorously used all of these, so my opinions might be based on impressions, and I'm not in the best place to advocate for some of these Pokemon (mostly Snorlax, Whimsicott, and Reuniclus), so if anything I said about these is flat out wrong, my bad.
Just saying that before ranking changes are made, I think they should be brought up in this thread and on the other one first before they're just made, I understand that you guys usually discuss stuff via PM or IRC or whatever before making changes, but since I just made this huge post for a ton of the changes that were made that weren't discussed here (AFAIK), it might be nice since I feel like this post is going to clutter up the thread, which is also why I made the text size smaller. Note that I haven't rigorously used all of these, so my opinions might be based on impressions, and I'm not in the best place to advocate for some of these Pokemon (mostly Snorlax, Whimsicott, and Reuniclus), so if anything I said about these is flat out wrong, my bad.
After a competitive boost, Milotic is actually surprisingly scary because of its bulk and access to recover. It is also able to beat literally every other defogger after a boost. Not terrible, but not the best choice. I'd like to see Reuniclus moved up to C. It's great vs. stall, and after Trick Room it can be so destructive against offensive teams. I think that Gourgiest XL should move up because of the great niche it provides in the form of a suicide lead for TR.I kind of disagree with some of the more recent changes concerning the D and C rank Pokemon.
This thing sucks really bad, but I think it fits the D rank pretty well. It's mediocre, but if it gets a Competitive boost it will at least be able to deal quite a bit of damage to most Pokemon, especially most defoggers since it gets Ice-type moves. Without the boost it's dead weight and is horrible, similarly to the ways that Pokemon such as Mr. Mime and Cloyster function; if the opponent has a Pokemon that they counter/check, they could easily be a good Pokemon in a match, but unless the opponent does have that Pokemon, it's horrible. It's not really outclassed by much as a special defog "blocker," but Bisharp and Thundurus are better choices for ones, although if your team can't afford to use either one of them for whatever reason, Milotic is your next best bet.
I think Whimsicott should be a D rank Pokemon as well. It can support Pokemon pretty well, but it's pretty horrible due to a lack of any offensive stats whatsoever. That makes it outclassed, but it can still function properly on teams that need its support.
Meloetta is nice with its ability to change formes, support the team by functioning as a cleric, and checking/countering one of the most common Pokemon, Aegislash. I'd say it isn't quite as niche as most of the Pokemon in D, and that it should go back in C-.
I think Trick Room is a bit better than you're giving it credit for. Cofagrigus can burn or toxic many Pokemon and then nail them with Hex, which is a 65/130 BP STAB move coming off of a 95 base Special Attack. While a lack of recovery is a big downside, I still think it deserves to be higher than D. It can move first on both Aegislash and Bisharp and either hit them with Hex/Shadow Ball (Aegislash) or cripple them with a Burn (Bisharp). Their priorirty won't OHKO it either, insuring that it will always 2HKO Aegislash or get a burn on Bisharp. Similarly, Reuniclus will move first on both of them, doesn't get KOed by their priority, and can hit them hard with a Shadow Ball or Focus Blast. I think they should both be C.
XL Considering there was someone advocating this to move up a rank, I think it at least deserves to be D. Basically it can set up Trick Room and either cripple or kill about every opposing lead, turning the battle into a 5 vs 5 instead of 6 vs 6. While this might not seem like much at first, it means that your team has one less Pokemon to deal with, and that that Pokemon could have caused a problem for your other five Pokemon. It's much easier to wall or prevent yourself from being walled by 5 Pokemon than 6.
Yes, please drop to D. There are much better counters to Rotom-Wash and Knock Off.
I don't think Snorlax is really that bad. It's still a strong physical attacker with good coverage, as well as great defenses. C seems fine for it IMHO.
Thundurus-T is way better than Thundurus on rain teams IMO. Its special attack is noticeably bigger than Thundurus's, and an electric immunity is way better than an electric neutrality, especially for a team who likely has at least 3 Pokemon with electric weaknesses. Rain doesn't really have time for Thundurus's Prankster Taunt/Thunder Wave shenanigans, there's not much of a reason to use physical Defiant Thundurus, and special-attacking Thundurus are outclassed by Thunudurus-T for the most part. Incarnate Thundurus is mostly outclassed by Therian Thundurus, Therian Tornadus, and Incarnate Tornadus on rain teams for the most part. I believe Thundurus-T belongs back in B-.
Bulky waters are bulky. Alomomola passes huge wishes, cripples stuff with Knock Off and Scald, surprise KOes special attackers with Mirror Coat. Mantine has great special bulk that allows it to counter special wallbreakers nicely. IMO these niches grant them places in D or C-. Swampert I think is a bit of good but unexplored territory this generation, as it still has nice defenses that allow it to counter many S and A rank threats depending on whether it decides to invest in special or physical bulk, the ability to act as a phazer that sets up stealth rocks and toxic spreader, and moves such as Scald and Earthquake that allow it to beat other defensive Pokemons' checks and counters. Its main downside is that you can't really use Quagsire and it on the same team, although its better defenses, offenses, and movepool give it a few boons over Quagsire. I don't know where it should go, though.
Empoleon, however, shouldn't be ranked IMO. What does it really even do? As a Defiant user it's outclassed, as a Defog user it's outclassed, as a special attacker with water STAB it's outclassed . . . Not to mention that the Pokemon that outclass it are some of the easiest to fit onto a team and you should never be pressed to fit those three roles into a single teamslot.
Just saying that before ranking changes are made, I think they should be brought up in this thread and on the other one first before they're just made, I understand that you guys usually discuss stuff via PM or IRC or whatever before making changes, but since I just made this huge post for a ton of the changes that were made that weren't discussed here (AFAIK), it might be nice since I feel like this post is going to clutter up the thread, which is also why I made the text size smaller. Note that I haven't rigorously used all of these, so my opinions might be based on impressions, and I'm not in the best place to advocate for some of these Pokemon (mostly Snorlax, Whimsicott, and Reuniclus), so if anything I said about these is flat out wrong, my bad.
Why are you arguing to lower Reuniclus as if it only works on a full TR team? Reuniclus can be a wallbreaker or even late game sweeper, or even just support a seperate slow wallbreaker while not being useless on its own.
Edit: @ below, before that
Edit: @ below, before that
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Wasn't he arguing to move Reuniclus up to C from C-?
I kind of disagree with some of the more recent changes concerning the D and C rank Pokemon.
This thing sucks really bad, but I think it fits the D rank pretty well. It's mediocre, but if it gets a Competitive boost it will at least be able to deal quite a bit of damage to most Pokemon, especially most defoggers since it gets Ice-type moves. Without the boost it's dead weight and is horrible, similarly to the ways that Pokemon such as Mr. Mime and Cloyster function; if the opponent has a Pokemon that they counter/check, they could easily be a good Pokemon in a match, but unless the opponent does have that Pokemon, it's horrible. It's not really outclassed by much as a special defog "blocker," but Bisharp and Thundurus are better choices for ones, although if your team can't afford to use either one of them for whatever reason, Milotic is your next best bet.
I think Whimsicott should be a D rank Pokemon as well. It can support Pokemon pretty well, but it's pretty horrible due to a lack of any offensive stats whatsoever. That makes it outclassed, but it can still function properly on teams that need its support.
Meloetta is nice with its ability to change formes, support the team by functioning as a cleric, and checking/countering one of the most common Pokemon, Aegislash. I'd say it isn't quite as niche as most of the Pokemon in D, and that it should go back in C-.
I think Trick Room is a bit better than you're giving it credit for. Cofagrigus can burn or toxic many Pokemon and then nail them with Hex, which is a 65/130 BP STAB move coming off of a 95 base Special Attack. While a lack of recovery is a big downside, I still think it deserves to be higher than D. It can move first on both Aegislash and Bisharp and either hit them with Hex/Shadow Ball (Aegislash) or cripple them with a Burn (Bisharp). Their priorirty won't OHKO it either, insuring that it will always 2HKO Aegislash or get a burn on Bisharp. Similarly, Reuniclus will move first on both of them, doesn't get KOed by their priority, and can hit them hard with a Shadow Ball or Focus Blast. I think they should both be C.
XL Considering there was someone advocating this to move up a rank, I think it at least deserves to be D. Basically it can set up Trick Room and either cripple or kill about every opposing lead, turning the battle into a 5 vs 5 instead of 6 vs 6. While this might not seem like much at first, it means that your team has one less Pokemon to deal with, and that that Pokemon could have caused a problem for your other five Pokemon. It's much easier to wall or prevent yourself from being walled by 5 Pokemon than 6.
Yes, please drop to D. There are much better counters to Rotom-Wash and Knock Off.
I don't think Snorlax is really that bad. It's still a strong physical attacker with good coverage, as well as great defenses. C seems fine for it IMHO.
Thundurus-T is way better than Thundurus on rain teams IMO. Its special attack is noticeably bigger than Thundurus's, and an electric immunity is way better than an electric neutrality, especially for a team who likely has at least 3 Pokemon with electric weaknesses. Rain doesn't really have time for Thundurus's Prankster Taunt/Thunder Wave shenanigans, there's not much of a reason to use physical Defiant Thundurus, and special-attacking Thundurus are outclassed by Thunudurus-T for the most part. Incarnate Thundurus is mostly outclassed by Therian Thundurus, Therian Tornadus, and Incarnate Tornadus on rain teams for the most part. I believe Thundurus-T belongs back in B-.
Bulky waters are bulky. Alomomola passes huge wishes, cripples stuff with Knock Off and Scald, surprise KOes special attackers with Mirror Coat. Mantine has great special bulk that allows it to counter special wallbreakers nicely. IMO these niches grant them places in D or C-. Swampert I think is a bit of good but unexplored territory this generation, as it still has nice defenses that allow it to counter many S and A rank threats depending on whether it decides to invest in special or physical bulk, the ability to act as a phazer that sets up stealth rocks and toxic spreader, and moves such as Scald and Earthquake that allow it to beat other defensive Pokemons' checks and counters. Its main downside is that you can't really use Quagsire and it on the same team, although its better defenses, offenses, and movepool give it a few boons over Quagsire. I don't know where it should go, though.
Empoleon, however, shouldn't be ranked IMO. What does it really even do? As a Defiant user it's outclassed, as a Defog user it's outclassed, as a special attacker with water STAB it's outclassed . . . Not to mention that the Pokemon that outclass it are some of the easiest to fit onto a team and you should never be pressed to fit those three roles into a single teamslot.
Just saying that before ranking changes are made, I think they should be brought up in this thread and on the other one first before they're just made, I understand that you guys usually discuss stuff via PM or IRC or whatever before making changes, but since I just made this huge post for a ton of the changes that were made that weren't discussed here (AFAIK), it might be nice since I feel like this post is going to clutter up the thread, which is also why I made the text size smaller. Note that I haven't rigorously used all of these, so my opinions might be based on impressions, and I'm not in the best place to advocate for some of these Pokemon (mostly Snorlax, Whimsicott, and Reuniclus), so if anything I said about these is flat out wrong, my bad.
Really we just cleared up the lower rankings and now you are suggesting extremely niche Pokemon again. As you said Milotic is bad and honestly Competitive is not enough of a reason to use it. Want a Defog discourage r, take Bisharp and Thunderus, they might not be as bulky but they are much better at everything else. If you want a Defog discourage r and Bisharp and Thunderus don't fit your team for whatever reason you should just stick to not having one. It isn't 100% necessary to have one anyways.
Whimsicott is alright but honestly it's just really adding another Pokemon to D rank. There are better Prankster users out there like Thunderus and Sableye. The only thing it has going for it is that it can have Prankster Memento which is good but extremely niche and it forces you to run a Whimsicott. I honestly don't mind Whimsicott being in the ranks for it but I really see no reason to use it on a team ever.
Meloetta can change forms but Relic Song Meloetta is more a gimmick as you need to have to waste a moveset on Relic Song and changing forms can be troublesome with it's whopping 1 resistance and 1 immunity in it's standard form. Also lol cleric Meloetta does that honestly get usage. Honestly why is Meloetta even ranked. Meloetta's pirouette form I already mentioned and if it doesn't transform it's just gonna be a mediocre Psychic type with bad speed. The only thing I can imagine is that it's a Psychic type with a Ghost immunity but that doesn't really give enough reason to use it.
Trick Room has never been fantastic for multiple reason. First it only lasts five turns and there is no item to increase the duration. You also have to either switch out to another Pokemon wasting another turn or try and sweep with your Trick Room setter which by the time you set up Trick Room the opponent already brought in a counter. Also Trick Room teams have a ton of problems with certain types as almost all off them except for Porygon2 are Ghost or Psychic type, Cofagrigus doesn't fix this problem. And most importantly why Trick Room isn't good: Sticky Web. Sticky Web essentially does almost the same as Trick Room and even though you can't have the super sayan slow Pokemon like Escavelier benefit that much from Sticky Web it is still better. The main Sticky Web setter in Shuckle is also better than most standard Trick Room setters which makes it better. Seeing as how Sticky Web isn't that great in OU to begin with you probably know why Trick Room fails to make a large impact on the metagame. Ow yeah and the metagame went from hyper offensive in generation 5 to more bulky play styles in generation 6 which is another big problem.
Anyways I was getting a bit off topic but back to Cofagrigus. You mentioned it can spread burns with Will-O-Wisp but you forgot one thing. Almost every Ghost type can do that. Sure they may not be as bulky as Cofagrigus but when you realize it has no reliable recovery it isn't as bulky as it would be. Almost every physical attacker now carries Knock Off these days which also hurts Cofagrigus his viability. There isn't really a reason to use it so let's leave it unranked.
However I do agree with Reuniclus moving up but for different reasons. Reuniclus his standard Trick Room sets aren't as good anymore because Trick Room isn't good anymore in itself as I mentioned. However it's Calm Mind set is fantastic. Calm Mind Reuniclus struggles against offensive teams as it get's wrecked Pokemon like Bisharp but against stall it can truly shine. The main counter to set up on stall is Quagsire which can get 2 hit KO'd by 4 special attack Reuniclus Focus Blast after Stealth Rock. It can also set up on the face of many stall Pokemon with ease thanks to Magic Guard, heck it can even win against Chansey 1 vs 1. Seeing as how stall is a common play style and with Baton Pass maybe getting banned it is probably going to be more common Reuniclus can really shine then. Honestly with Reuniclus his positive traits I think he should be C+.
Trick Room is not viable so I am gonna ignore the mention of Trick Room Gourgeist. Honestly all that you have mentioned doesn't give a good reason why it should be used over Gourgeist Small who is already pretty mediocre but viable. Destiny Bond is cool but honestly again Gourgeist Small is much better at it. I would keep this thing off the rankings honestly.
Lol Gastrodon with Sticky Hold to counter Knock Off seriously. The main reason Gastrodon sees any usage is because it can check volt turn teams and Rain Dance teams quite easily and you didn't mention any of those. The rank where it is now seems good for it.
Snorlax hasn't been considered strong anymore since generation 5 because honestly base 110 attack isn't what it used to be. The main Snorlax sets are the Curse sets because all other ones are done better by other Pokemon. However the Curse sets take a while to set up, forces you to run Rest and Sleep Talk and depending on if you have Body Slam or Crunch you are either entirely walled by Ghost types or you are running a piss weak non STAB Crunch.
For Thunderus T all I have to say is that Rain Dance teams can also run Seismitoed for Electric immunity which is essentially the main reason to use it. Also while it is better on Rain Dance teams I still think around C is good for it as it isn't one of the most important Rain Dance team Pokemon like Kabutops and it isn't useful outside of rain so it is good where it is now.
I can agree with Alomomola as it's big Wishes and Regenerator give it a usable niche in the metagame and honestly D rank fits fine for it. It's discussion thread hasn't been closed either suggesting that it is viable in the metagame right now.
Mantine is honestly a worse Gyarados with Defog. I tried it and it will be asleep 99% of the time which can cause it to be set up fodder and considering it is supposed to wall that stuff it isn't good at all. I rather have a bulky Gyarados and another Pokemon for Defog than this Pokemon.
quagsire utterly wins a competition with Swampert as it has a method of recovery and the main thing, Unaware. Swampert just finds itself outclassed by other Pokemon in OU as everything it can do, something does it better. Phazing with hazards hasn't been a good strategy anymore ever since Defog and Skarmory is better at it anyway with better typing and recovery. Also it's viable movepool is literally hazards, Roar and STAB which is not a lot to work with.
Can agree with Empoleon except that it's secondary Steel typing and acces to Defog gives it a usable niche and you didn't mention that Steel typing anywhere.
Long post lol.
I started playing competitive pokemon four months ago and I don't think I've ever lost a match to a trick room team. And if I did, it wasn't because of Trick Room.
The 5 turn thing really hurts it. It's not hard to stall a trick room team at all. It suffers from the same problem as rain teams, except that rain last 8 turns instead of 5, can set up without using a turn thanks to Drizzle, and also boost attack power instead of just making the user attack first.
The 5 turn thing really hurts it. It's not hard to stall a trick room team at all. It suffers from the same problem as rain teams, except that rain last 8 turns instead of 5, can set up without using a turn thanks to Drizzle, and also boost attack power instead of just making the user attack first.
I don't usually participate in these threads, but I want to see a change happen. Breloom from A- to A. Breloom is a Pokemon that has gotten better and better as the metagame has developed. Breloom's versatility in that he can run multiple sets while at the same time being a check to the most popular offensive styles of play in Sand and Deosharp makes Breloom extremely viable. Breloom forces a lot of switches which gives Breloom several opportunities to set up a Substitute and now instead of having a Pokemon come in that would counter Breloom, Breloom is now behind a sub, can spore you or even 1hko you. Talonflame and Mega Pinsir are only counters/checks on paper since the combination of Sub/Spore/Rock Tomb never truly lets them harm Breloom. Poison Heal is a great ability that allows Breloom to evade burns, paralysis, frz, etc and thus Breloom always remain functional throughout the entire game. But what really makes Breloom a good contender for A is his versatility, as I have already said. At the end of the day you can only guess what the Breloom's set is and never know until he has killed one or two of your pokemon with attacks that you predicted wrong on. For ex. you switch into Ferrothorn hoping to absorb the spore, but guess what he sets up a sub and Focus Punches you to death. Breloom, however, hates Mega Venu and other bulky grass Mons, but Mega Venu's viability is plummeting because of the Bird spam and Psychic attacks. Breloom's spore is extremely good, as we all know, as it proves very handy in tough situations. For ex a +6 Aqua Jet from Azumarill does not 1hko Breloom at full health and does around 85%. Thus, you can take the hit and Spore and save your team from certain defeat.
So again Breloom from A- to A.
Breloom's viability is increasing everyday as the metagame progresses. Mach Punch/Drain Punch are a good stop to Sand and Deosharp, and it was kind of held back by Mega Venu's S rank viability but everyday there are less and less of those because of how easy they are to counter. I wouldn't mind it being in A- but I believe A is a much more appropriate rank for it in today's metagame
Thirding (Is that a word?) Gengar for A+. I run a very unorthodox set on mine (Sash-Counter with Destiny Bond, Taunt, and Shadow Ball), and it works as well as any of Gengar's plethora of sets!
It can run the classic Sub-Disable set, a SubSplit set, a Scarf Set, a support set with Taunt/Will-O-Wisp/Destiny Bond/Etcetera, Etcetera, Etcetera! It can even run the old Protect + 3 Attacks set from DPP now that Bisharp is a really common sight. Although Gengar has competition in its individual roles, its versatility is near unmatched, making it hard to predict and definitely deserves the A+ rank.
Nominating Dragonite for A+ as well. This thing really belongs with the other Dragons like Kyurem-B and Garchomp (Mega-Gyarados gets an honorary mention.) Like Gengar, it is extremely versatile, pulling off Weakness Policy better than any OU Pokemon! Getting Dragonite to +2 Attack is a cinch! Pair that with Extreme Speed, a move that any Physical attacker would kill for, and you've got an absolute monster with +2 Priority! Pair that with his monstrous 134 Attack and an easy +2 Attack boost, this thing can sweep with little support. Multiscale is an excellent ability which makes Weakness Policy all the more potent! He also can set up free Dragon Dances if you can keep Multiscale up!
However, Dragonite can also pull of many other sets including a Bulky set with Roost to abuse the hell out of Multiscale while still having an offensive presence. It can also pull of a pure Special or Mixed set with a great movepool and that often overlooked 100 Base SpA stat. It can also run a ParaShuffle set which even with the introduction of Faires is still annoying. And lastly, it can run Lum Berry to throw off opponents and get a free Dragon Dance while they essentially waste a status move.
Also, Mega Charizard-Y belongs back in S. I may sound like a broken record, but I strongly believe this. I know everyone's gonna bring up Chansey and Blissey, but Thundurus can't break them either, and he's in S. This thing requires no setup. Just Fire Blast away and nothing will appreciate it. It also has decent special bulk and the sun mitigates its weakness to Water. Though it may not be in the Elite speed tier, it's fast enough to wreck. It even OHKOs Tyranitar trying to take away its Sun with a Focus Blast. It's only shortcoming is Stealth Rock but it has Roost and its strengths WAY outweigh its weakness.
I know people will try to bring up that I'm nominating my team members for a higher rank, but I use them because I find them to be good, not the other way around.
BenTheDemon, If you're going to repeatedly nominate Zard Y for S-rank, can you at least address the things that I've previously said on why it should be moved down? You've literally just said the "Fire Blast away and nothing will appreciate it" over and over again while myself and others have addressed why it can't do that and how the meta has adapted to it. Don't bother posting if you can't make a good case for it or refuse to argue against what others have said. Refer to this post, this one, and this one because everything you've mentioned, I covered in those posts.
I don't want to make it seem like, I'm out to keep Zard Y in A+. But if people can't refute what others and myself have posted, you aren't helping anything by constantly posting about it. Keep that in mind when you post. Thank you.
I don't want to make it seem like, I'm out to keep Zard Y in A+. But if people can't refute what others and myself have posted, you aren't helping anything by constantly posting about it. Keep that in mind when you post. Thank you.
Also, Mega Charizard-Y belongs back in S. I may sound like a broken record, but I strongly believe this. I know everyone's gonna bring up Chansey and Blissey, but Thundurus can't break them either, and he's in S. This thing requires no setup. Just Fire Blast away and nothing will appreciate it. It also has decent special bulk and the sun mitigates its weakness to Water. Though it may not be in the Elite speed tier, it's fast enough to wreck. It even OHKOs Tyranitar trying to take away its Sun with a Focus Blast. It's only shortcoming is Stealth Rock but it has Roost and its strengths WAY outweigh its weakness.
I know people will try to bring up that I'm nominating my team members for a higher rank, but I use them because I find them to be good, not the other way around.
Zard Y also receives competition from Lando-I, who can actually fuck over Chansey without killing itself thanks to Knock Off and U-tun (which also lets you get away from Lati@s and bring in a Pursuit trapper like Bisharp), boost its stats with Calm Mind or Rock Polish, can take on a more supportive role while still murdering things with Stealth Rock, is way more unpredictable (Earth Power and Psychic are the only constants), and doesn't take up your Mega Slot.
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I'm going to have to disagree with this. Obviously, Char-Y is a massively powerful threat that can deal a lot of damage to a lot of things, but it does have a few counters that stop it from being S-Rank worthy. Right now, none of the S Rank threats can be countered easily, or rather, not a single Pokemon can truly beat all of their sets reliably. You say that Chansey and Blissey beat Thundurus, but that's not true at all : Thundurus's Mixed Defiant set completely demolishes the Blobs, which Char-Y cannot do without destroying itself in the process. The same can be said of all other S-Ranks : you can't counter them safely unless you know what set the're running, and this isn't the case of Charizard-Y.
Ultimately, the fact that there exist 100% reliable answers to Mega Charizard-Y sets it apart from S-Rank Pokemon in a big way, hence why it should stay in A+
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Also, Mega Charizard-Y belongs back in S. I may sound like a broken record, but I strongly believe this. I know everyone's gonna bring up Chansey and Blissey, but Thundurus can't break them either, and he's in S. This thing requires no setup. Just Fire Blast away and nothing will appreciate it. It also has decent special bulk and the sun mitigates its weakness to Water. Though it may not be in the Elite speed tier, it's fast enough to wreck. It even OHKOs Tyranitar trying to take away its Sun with a Focus Blast. It's only shortcoming is Stealth Rock but it has Roost and its strengths WAY outweigh its weakness.
Ok, this is flat out wrong. Thundurus has Taunt to completely stop both, it also can run Knock Off to cripple both, and Defiant sets run both Knock Off and Superpower, which OHKOes both of these Pokemon. Thundurus almost always breaks these Pokemon, and +2 Focus Blast always 2HKOes even 252/252+ Chansey. So yeah, Thundurus can easily beat both of these Pokemon...
None of those can safely switch in bar the blobs.
Dragonite is taken down by a Fire Blast after switching into Steal Rocks and a Fire Blast on the switch.
Zard X is taken down if it's hit with a Fire Blast on the switch before Mega Evolving followed by a Focus Blast (I actually just took one out that way).
Garchomp can revenge kill, but it takes a good 50% or more if it switches into Fire Blast.
The blobs wall it. No question there.
AV Azumarill isn't that common, but is 2HKOed by Solar Beam, so it can't safely switch in.
Scarf Excadrill is easily OHKOed by both Fire Blast and Fail Blast. Definitely not a safe switch in. Plus Air Balloon is much more common. And Scarf Excadril can be seen from a mile away.
Fire Blast has an 87.5% chance to OHKO Landorus-T on the switch.
Sash Breloom cannot switch in either.
Yes, Zard-Y has some checks, but not too many counters.
I stand by Zard-Y for S.
EDIT: Forgot Heatran. Focus Blast.
Subject 18 Your arguments in those 3 posts were: Zard X is better, its SR weak, it has just 1 set and that it has counters
Regarding the first argument, well Zard X is the better pokemon overall but they serve different roles, one is a pivot/sweeper depending on the set the other is a wallbreaker. Cant realy compare them imo.
The second argument has always been there, nothing new here it was S rank for a long time despite that weakness.
Just having one set isnt neccesarily a bad thing. Just like Pinsir oder Terrakion Zard Y has everything he needs covered in 4 attacks.
And the last one is hardly an argument at all since everything has counters and out of the things you mentioned as counters half of them are revengekillers/checks at best like Exca, Lando-T and Breloom for example. Calling Heatran a counter is also a bit of a stretch, it gets 2hkoed by focusblast and cant do a thing about Zard Y except for the rare Stone Edge which nobody will ever use unles he has no other way on his team to deal with Zard Y.
The fact that Zard Y Fireblast is the most spamable and probably the most devastating move in the tier wasnt refuted anywhere in those posts. Its the hardest mon to switch into in the entire tier and with Chansey beeing pretty much a stall only mon the only real counter to it is also found only on stall teams. Offensive and balance teams have 2 choices. 1. Sacrifice a mon everytime Zard comes in. 2. Try to fit one of the more or less reliable checks like Dragonite/Latios in your team.
Honestly the biggest argument against Zard Y is that it is a specialy oriented wallbreaker that gets walled by the most common special wall in the tier but hell thats true for almost every special wallbreaker.
Regarding the first argument, well Zard X is the better pokemon overall but they serve different roles, one is a pivot/sweeper depending on the set the other is a wallbreaker. Cant realy compare them imo.
The second argument has always been there, nothing new here it was S rank for a long time despite that weakness.
Just having one set isnt neccesarily a bad thing. Just like Pinsir oder Terrakion Zard Y has everything he needs covered in 4 attacks.
And the last one is hardly an argument at all since everything has counters and out of the things you mentioned as counters half of them are revengekillers/checks at best like Exca, Lando-T and Breloom for example. Calling Heatran a counter is also a bit of a stretch, it gets 2hkoed by focusblast and cant do a thing about Zard Y except for the rare Stone Edge which nobody will ever use unles he has no other way on his team to deal with Zard Y.
The fact that Zard Y Fireblast is the most spamable and probably the most devastating move in the tier wasnt refuted anywhere in those posts. Its the hardest mon to switch into in the entire tier and with Chansey beeing pretty much a stall only mon the only real counter to it is also found only on stall teams. Offensive and balance teams have 2 choices. 1. Sacrifice a mon everytime Zard comes in. 2. Try to fit one of the more or less reliable checks like Dragonite/Latios in your team.
Honestly the biggest argument against Zard Y is that it is a specialy oriented wallbreaker that gets walled by the most common special wall in the tier but hell thats true for almost every special wallbreaker.
This is what I meant by "Fire Blast away!"
Plz refer to based: Week 1 - CTC vs Dice BotW
Not trying to get in an argument here bro, js, TR has potential, i.e. viable niche
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