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XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

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I'll open the can.

Or it could show that BP is completely not over powered as much as people believed and the meta can adapt to easily handle it. I mean in a format where far more people are running BP than ever before it's still failing. Maybe the meta just needs to be let adapt. I mean if it's truly so overpowered it should probably be dominating no?

This notion is so entirely flawed in every aspect. To begin with, you completely seem to miss the point Jukain is making in the post that you quoted. What he is saying is that the suspect ladder is hardly representative of the actual meta because people are resorting to all-out countering Baton Pass simply because they know that it should technically be everywhere. This does not mean that BP is not as overpowered as people are making it out to be. Not sure how much you have at least looked at what people are running to counter BP but, if you have not seen much, Jukain sums it up pretty nicely when he says random shit bp counters. The specificity there essentially serves to further prove how ridiculous BP is rather than how overpowered it supposedly isn't. The counters are exactly as he said, random bp counters. People are running multiple obscure Pokemon specifically to counter BP and little if anything else. In the actual meta, how many teams do you see that run 4-6 BP counters, even by sheer coincidence if nothing else? Given what counters BP and where those Pokemon are on the usage stats, I'm pretty sure that it is more than fair to say that you rarely run into anyone of notable ranking that is fully/overly prepared for BP teams. Hence, Jukain's post that the suspect ladder is not representative of the actual meta is entirely accurate and supports the idea that some action needs to be taken against BP given the ridiculous things people are clearly resorting to to counter BP.

The idea of letting the meta adapt is so factitious that I am curious to know where exactly one gets such an idea. How many times has the meta "adapted" to something potentially broken? No wait, let me rephrase the question. How many times has the meta "adapted" to something potentially broken in a manner other than having everyone either use the broken subject or a counter for it specifically? As far as I can think back, never. Genesect is a prime example. Everyone either ran it or its counter. That means literally everyone. Project that "adaptation" to this situation and what do you end up with? Everyone either runs Baton Pass or counters Baton Pass. So what's the big deal, that's the meta adapting to a new threat? For starters, lets differentiate between the example of Genesect and this current situation with Baton Pass. Genesect could be efficiently and effectively countered by designating one Pokemon on your team specifically for it. Can the same be done with Baton Pass? If so, please do enlighten me, because I apparently am out of the loop. As far as I know, you cannot counter an entire BP team (Scolipede/Smeargle/Espeon/Sylveon/Vaporeon/Zapdos or Mr. Mime) with one or even two Pokemon. You need to designate much more of your team to counter a Baton Pass team. Oh wait, it seems that I forgot the list of less than 10 Pokemon that can, if played correctly, single-handedly stop Baton Pass. There, our problem is solved, right? But then how is that any different from the example of Genesect that I gave? You either run at least half of your team to counter Baton Pass or you run one of the few Pokemon from the list I mentioned earlier. Add on the fact that that list isn't exactly overflowing with splashable Pokemon and you'll see that it isn't much different. Whether you run many Pokemon to counter Baton Pass or one comparatively obscure Pokemon, you still are going out of your way to counter Baton Pass.

You did bring up elsewhere the question about why Baton Pass cannot be prepared for like any other type of team, such as stall or hyper offense. The reason is this. You can prepare for playstyles, such as stall and hyper offense, by having a Pokemon or two specifically put in for those teams while also being regularly useful against other playstyles and just in general. The same cannot be said for Baton Pass counters. How often will things like Red Card Skarmory or Heart Swap, to use some of your examples, be useful outside of Baton Pass teams? You could argue that Red Card can still be used to phaze, but is that even a good thing with Skarmory? Skarmory tends to be brought out on physical attackers and uses the turn they switch out to either setup, Defog, Roost, etc. If that Pokemon is switched out right when Skarmory is brought in, what have you accomplished? In all likelihood, you just put yourself in a disadvantageous position simply because this Pokemon was designed to counter Baton Pass. Sure, you can phaze other setup sweepers, but how many of those are so problematic that you would resort to something that would, more often than not, leave you at a disadvantage? I doubt Heart Swap needs much explanation, especially given its users, the common one being the epitome of gimmick, along with the fact that it is practically nonexistant because of its sheer uselessness outside of Baton Pass teams.

Although the idea of the meta adapting to deal with this threat seems good on paper, it is nothing more than that. As previous experiences clearly demonstrate, adapting means either running the broken Pokemon/strategy or running counters specifically for it. However, unlike previous examples, the counters for Baton Pass are far less useful outside of Baton Pass matchups. Things like Heatran that were brought along for Genesect were immensely useful outside of Genesect but our current situation is not similar in this regards. By preparing yourself to efficiently counter Baton Pass, you lose out on your ability to be routinely successful against other playstyles. Thus, the idea of adaptation is inaccurately represented and certainly not healthy.

Someone please explain to me why we aren't trying to end it and are just nerfing it? I am legitimately confused about why a flat ban is not one of the options.

Also, collateral damage is a product of ALL bans, and we've never cared before. So why are we caring now about a playstyle that everyone hates anyway.

Seriously, I have no idea what's going on in people's minds right now.

Do you know how efficient 3 Baton Pass users are versus a full BP team? Not very efficient, to keep it short.
 
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Do you know how efficient 3 Baton Pass users are versus a full BP team? Not very efficient, to keep it short.
My problem with opition is that it's far to similar to Aldaaron's Proposal in that it ignores the elephant in the room to minimize collateral "damage". I am more than likely making a mountain out of a mole hill on this, but I don't want to even risk a repeat of last gen. I WANT to be wrong about this, but I'm going to vote for option 3 if I ever get off my ass and actually ladder for reqs this time.
 
My problem with opition is that it's far to similar to Aldaaron's Proposal in that it ignores the elephant in the room to minimize collateral "damage". I am more than likely making a mountain out of a mole hill on this, but I don't want to even risk a repeat of last gen. I WANT to be wrong about this, but I'm going to vote for option 3 if I ever get off my ass and actually ladder for reqs this time.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, can you specify what you are referring to in regards to last gen? I am fairly confident that I know what it is, but I'd rather not write something only to find out that you were talking about a whole other thing.
 
Just to make sure we are on the same page, can you specify what you are referring to in regards to last gen? I am fairly confident that I know what it is, but I'd rather not write something only to find out that you were talking about a whole other thing.
A shitty, overcentrallized meta.

Again, I could be totally wrong and option 2 is the best course of action. I just don't want to have to come back to this in an indeterminable amount of time.
 
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A shitty overcentrallized meta that ignores the blatantly obvious broken element and bans everything but.

Okay, I was thinking something more specific, but that is pretty much what I thought you were referring to. The problem with Baton Pass is that the combination of six Pokemon somehow is so solid that it is difficult to not only break its momentum, but stop it from building momentum. There are obviously a handful of Pokemon that can accomplish one or both of these single-handedly, but they are out of the way, in a sense. Although others may disagree, I personally believe that the momentum doesn't exactly start with one Pokemon, Scolipede to be specific. Yes, more often than not people lead with Scolipede but they don't have to. What do people do when the opponent has Talonflame? Unless they happen to be Sashed, they don't lead with Scolipede. Do they lose? Rarely. Why is this? Because leading with Scolipede and accumulating Speed and possibly Defense boosts early on is arguably the most efficient way to gain momentum. It certainly isn't the only way and the other ways are certainly not inefficient, just less efficient.

What happens if we halve the number of routes a Baton Pass chain can take to both start rolling and keep rolling? Can anyone name a Pokemon in a Baton Pass chain that is expendable? Not even one Pokemon can be dropped without severely nerfing, for lack of a better word, the chain. Taking out three is an immense blow. The number of ways to break Scolipede/Espeon/Sylveon, for example, is absolutely colossal compared to what can break a full team. So, to sum up, by limiting the number of BP Pokemon, you have essentially made it possible for people to counter, with relative ease, the chain without consciously including specific counters in their team. Obviously, this is referring to people with average knowledge, prediction skills and teambuilding skills at the very least.
 
Baton Pass teams are manageable, and sometimes, quite easy to beat. How, you ask? With Thundurus. Thundurus is the biggest disruptor to a Baton Pass team. Either people don't see the need to run a mon to counter Baton Pass, or they just don't know about it. Thundurus isn't that used in the first place, what a shame.

| 45 | Thundurus | 4.42992% | 165713 | 3.250% | 135026 | 3.341% |

I usually lead off with Thundurus when I see a Baton Pass team. They'll be expecting a T-Wave or a Taunt and most likely go into Espeon. At this point you Nasty Plot and you'll be able to kill Espeon or force it to switch out, either killing the pokemon that their team is dependent on or severely damaging another. I haven't faced THAT many Baton Pass teams to know what kind of status moves they carry. At the worst, Thundurus will be put on a timer by Toxic.

This.

I know I'm not an excellent player (only ever reached a 1570 ELO) but if you see a BP team its not extraordinarily hard to beat if you take the root cause early. I've tinkered with Dennis' team for a while, so I have a general feel for what to expect from BP teams. It's literally as easy as recognizing Scolipede will lead, leading with your most well equipped Pokemon (Mega Pinsir, Thund-I, Lando-I, and Staraptor just to name a few) can force the chain to start somewhere other than Scolipede. This either: forces in Espeon on an unfavorable situation, resulting in more damage on the scoundrel OR losing another pivotal member of the chain which exposes the others, as each member of Dennis' team covers a specific genre of threats for one another. Additionally, the extra damage on Espeon leads to an easier KO later.

While BP forces teams to change their 'desired' leads, it isn't nuts to slow the chain early. Even if you can force the members of the team into lower HP ranges through variation of leads, then you reduce the amount of unprotected attacks they can utilize. The total HP of the mons in the chain creates a timer effect, as they can only create so many distractions while they boost. By using the method quoted or just altering your lead, you can do a lot of work early that solves your problems later in the match.

If I do acquire reqs, I will vote for the complex ban for this reason.

Quote from the BP master himself: "Although my Gen 5 Baton Pass Chain did very well on the Pokemon Online server, this new generation brought some VERY powerful physical attackers. The core Scolipede, Vaporeon, Smeargle and Zapdos is the only way a Baton Pass Chain can survive with all the new XY powerhouses (cof cof... mega evolutions... cof cof) around"

This complex ban crushes the core of BP and makes it much more difficult to use, thus creating more strategies to use if BP wants to survive. With a BP chain of 3, then there is no way to check a variety of threats at the same time - something akin to the 4 Moveslot syndrome.

Alright time to go ladder lol
 
How do counter Baton pass with pokemon that are viable outside full BP with none or little changes.

S rank (metagame-defning pokemon)
-Aegislash: A set of King's Shield/Shadow Ball/Iron Head/Shadow Sneak deals very well against BP. Only Smeargle is inmune to Shadow Ball (and not BP teams run that), Iron Head deals with Espeon and Mr. Mime, Shadow Sneak for idf the pokemon with broken substitutes has low health.

MCharizard-X: I9f the oponnent lead with Scolipede, DD on turn 1, then Flare Blitz. If it switches to Vaporeon, Dragon Claw. If he use Vaporeon, continuous Dragon Dances until Vaporeon BP out. Will-o-wisp is useless on BP teams because they don't usually go physical attacking.

Deoxys-D: BP team counter it. In fact, Espeon counters every Deoxys-D.

Deoxys-S: Bad options because BP team deal with it very well. Specially Espeon.

Landorus: Only Zapdos can deal with it, any other member has to take LO Sheer Force Earth Power. If leads with Scolipde nad you have Calm Mind, use it on turn 1.

Thundurus: Priority Thunder Wave is very great, because even if Espeon directly switch out, it will come with zero boost and has to take various Thunderbolt, which is difficult to switch out. The set recommended is Thunder Wave//Taunt or Nasty Plot// Thunderbolt//HP Ice with the usual EVs of Thundurus.

A+: Azumarill. Belly Drum is an excellent anser. +6 on Turn 1 and then Play Rough all of the team. If they're weak and no Substitute is up, Aqua Jet.

Bisharp: If Bisharp has Swords Dance, use it on turn 1 against Scolipede. If you predict staying or not switching to Sylveon, use Knock Off. If you predict Sylveon, Iron head.

MCharizard-Y: Change Fire Blast for Flamethrower to avoid hax while they're hiding in a Substitute. Spam Flamethrower through all the team. If you predict Vaporeon, Solar Beam. You can even run both Flamethrower and Fire Blast/Overheat on the same set (Charizards usually requires 3 moves to function)

Clefable: Unaware is excellent. Ignores all the boost that the team can get, leaving you free time to use CM. Calm mind continuously against Scolipede until BP out. Use a move that is effective on Scolipede on your Clefable set.

excadrill: Mold Breaker SR is great, specially on na poke that BP hate to switch. Having support from SS and Sand Rush could be another good way to bypass Bp teams. Sand Rush outspeeds Scolipede even at +1 (and some of the chain even at +2) and gives you freedom to sue Swords Dance. The main cons is that it has 4MSS with Rapid Spin.

Garchomp: It's an effective SR setter because Espeon doesn't like switching on it. A set of Swords Dance, Dragon Claw/Outrage, Earthquake and Stone Edge/Crunch/Stealth Rock is great versus those teams. Another option is to use Mega Garchomp, who his ability touse special attacker makes more unpredictable.

Greninja: proteam is a great ability to mess their team and change your abilities at will. Surf/ice Beam/Dark Pulse/Filler with the standard set, prediction and go. Remember that BP= takes worse special attacks than physuical attacks early in the match.

Mega gyarados: Mold Breaker ginores abilities like Magic Bounce on it, being able to run mvoes like Roar, Taunt or thunder Wave. To deal with BP sets the best set is Dragon Dance/Waterfall/Stone Edge or Earthquake/Taunt, Roar or Thunder Wave. No member of the chain resist both Waterfall and Stone Edge with is common to the rest of the ladder.

Keldeo: If you are choiced and you aren't againstt Vapreon, click Scald or Surf (evade Substitute hax as much as possible), if you use LO, better to avoid being choiced and having to switch out agaisnt Vaporeon 8and Secret Sword him). focus Blast is a n option to avoid physical defensive boosts agsinst Vaporeon (but remember is Focus Miss). Standard srts work against BP relatively well at the start.

Mega Mawile: Steel/Fairy is great, and only feares Vaporeon's Scald. If against Scolipede, Swords Dance while Protect/Iron Defense. Play Rough and iron Head combo is not resisted by any member of the match. Don't use Sucker Punch until Espeon got a high number of special boosts.

Mega Pinsir: priority Flying is very great agaisnt Scolipede, becuas eit bypasses Iron Defense Swords dance on turn 1 to avoid possible Protect. Aerilate Return is not resisted by any member oft he chain except Zapdos, which can boost nothing except Speed.

Mega Scizor: Swords Dance Bullet Punch are feared to all the team except Vaporeon and Zapdos. For Vaporeon, Bug Bite is waiting. Knock off is great to get free items. Priority id great because it bypasses Speed boosts.

Talonflame You see Scolipede (and I see anything but Zapdos) and click Brave Bird. if you predict Scoliepde and you aren'0t choice, you can Bulk Up/Swords Dance if possible.

Tyranitar (or his Mega): Both of them deal very well. One of the most reliable SR setters because Espeon hates sitching to it. Use a set of Stone Edge, Crunch and Earthquake and SR Bp teams hate Sandstorm damage. And his insane special bulk allows to take evenonre Hyper Voice from Sylveon (even at +1). Scolipede gets a number owith Stone Edge even at +2.
 
This.

I know I'm not an excellent player (only ever reached a 1570 ELO) but if you see a BP team its not extraordinarily hard to beat if you take the root cause early. I've tinkered with Dennis' team for a while, so I have a general feel for what to expect from BP teams. It's literally as easy as recognizing Scolipede will lead, leading with your most well equipped Pokemon (Mega Pinsir, Thund-I, Lando-I, and Staraptor just to name a few) can force the chain to start somewhere other than Scolipede. This either: forces in Espeon on an unfavorable situation, resulting in more damage on the scoundrel OR losing another pivotal member of the chain which exposes the others, as each member of Dennis' team covers a specific genre of threats for one another. Additionally, the extra damage on Espeon leads to an easier KO later.

While BP forces teams to change their 'desired' leads, it isn't nuts to slow the chain early. Even if you can force the members of the team into lower HP ranges through variation of leads, then you reduce the amount of unprotected attacks they can utilize. The total HP of the mons in the chain creates a timer effect, as they can only create so many distractions while they boost. By using the method quoted or just altering your lead, you can do a lot of work early that solves your problems later in the match.

If I do acquire reqs, I will vote for the complex ban for this reason.

Quote from the BP master himself: "Although my Gen 5 Baton Pass Chain did very well on the Pokemon Online server, this new generation brought some VERY powerful physical attackers. The core Scolipede, Vaporeon, Smeargle and Zapdos is the only way a Baton Pass Chain can survive with all the new XY powerhouses (cof cof... mega evolutions... cof cof) around"

This complex ban crushes the core of BP and makes it much more difficult to use, thus creating more strategies to use if BP wants to survive. With a BP chain of 3, then there is no way to check a variety of threats at the same time - something akin to the 4 Moveslot syndrome.

Alright time to go ladder lol


So tell me, what do I lead with if I have a stall team? What about a balanced team? Not everyone carries Hyper Offense, in case you were unaware. You're making a blanket statement for something that shouldn't be shrouded over. . . You don't think more skilled players have dealt with people thinking "Oh, I'll lead with this."? If not then you should open your eyes. Oh, you're going to open with TFlame to take out Scolipede, cool, 'cause I opened up with Vaporeon/Zapdos (Zapdos less so). And if you're cool with your TFlame losing more than half of it's HP with a Brave Bid, be my guest, Smeargle will gladly put your one huge threat to sleep with <50% left.

Don't get me wrong, I've beaten my fair share of higher laddered BP players, but that's because they made one wrong move allowing me to tear their wall back down or a lucky crit. In the hands of even some of the least competent players it can turn what should have been a 0-4 match into a 6-0, much like mKanga many of the things that have rightfully gotten the boot.

"This complex ban crushes the core of BP and makes it much more difficult to use, thus creating more strategies to use if BP wants to survive. With a BP chain of 3, then there is no way to check a variety of threats at the same time - something akin to the 4 Moveslot syndrome"

That's precisely the point. . .

EDIT: Since it dEniSsSs' presence reminded me. . .

"Quote from the BP master himself": "Baton Pass REALLY deserves to be nerfed because it is the reason why people actually use Haze Gengar, Taunt Mega Gyarados and other useless stuff (this is such a sad thing). Full Baton Pass is the best play style in my honest opinion, since it can win against both Stall, Balance and Hyper Offense teams with ease (unless they carry a very nice counter/check to this kind of strategy). It is is hard as hell for anybody to face "
 
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This notion is so entirely flawed in every aspect. To begin with, you completely seem to miss the point Jukain is making in the post that you quoted. What he is saying is that the suspect ladder is hardly representative of the actual meta because people are resorting to all-out countering Baton Pass simply because they know that it should technically be everywhere. This does not mean that BP is not as overpowered as people are making it out to be. Not sure how much you have at least looked at what people are running to counter BP but, if you have not seen much, Jukain sums it up pretty nicely when he says random shit bp counters. The specificity there essentially serves to further prove how ridiculous BP is rather than how overpowered it supposedly isn't. The counters are exactly as he said, random bp counters. People are running multiple obscure Pokemon specifically to counter BP and little if anything else. In the actual meta, how many teams do you see that run 4-6 BP counters, even by sheer coincidence if nothing else? Given what counters BP and where those Pokemon are on the usage stats, I'm pretty sure that it is more than fair to say that you rarely run into anyone of notable ranking that is fully/overly prepared for BP teams. Hence, Jukain's post that the suspect ladder is not representative of the actual meta is entirely accurate and supports the idea that some action needs to be taken against BP given the ridiculous things people are clearly resorting to to counter BP.

The idea of letting the meta adapt is so factitious that I am curious to know where exactly one gets such an idea. How many times has the meta "adapted" to something potentially broken? No wait, let me rephrase the question. How many times has the meta "adapted" to something potentially broken in a manner other than having everyone either use the broken subject or a counter for it specifically? As far as I can think back, never. Genesect is a prime example. Everyone either ran it or its counter. That means literally everyone. Project that "adaptation" to this situation and what do you end up with? Everyone either runs Baton Pass or counters Baton Pass. So what's the big deal, that's the meta adapting to a new threat? For starters, lets differentiate between the example of Genesect and this current situation with Baton Pass. Genesect could be efficiently and effectively countered by designating one Pokemon on your team specifically for it. Can the same be done with Baton Pass? If so, please do enlighten me, because I apparently am out of the loop. As far as I know, you cannot counter an entire BP team (Scolipede/Smeargle/Espeon/Sylveon/Vaporeon/Zapdos or Mr. Mime) with one or even two Pokemon. You need to designate much more of your team to counter a Baton Pass team. Oh wait, it seems that I forgot the list of less than 10 Pokemon that can, if played correctly, single-handedly stop Baton Pass. There, our problem is solved, right? But then how is that any different from the example of Genesect that I gave? You either run at least half of your team to counter Baton Pass or you run one of the few Pokemon from the list I mentioned earlier. Add on the fact that that list isn't exactly overflowing with splashable Pokemon and you'll see that it isn't much different. Whether you run many Pokemon to counter Baton Pass or one comparatively obscure Pokemon, you still are going out of your way to counter Baton Pass.

You did bring up elsewhere the question about why Baton Pass cannot be prepared for like any other type of team, such as stall or hyper offense. The reason is this. You can prepare for playstyles, such as stall and hyper offense, by having a Pokemon or two specifically put in for those teams while also being regularly useful against other playstyles and just in general. The same cannot be said for Baton Pass counters. How often will things like Red Card Skarmory or Heart Swap, to use some of your examples, be useful outside of Baton Pass teams? You could argue that Red Card can still be used to phaze, but is that even a good thing with Skarmory? Skarmory tends to be brought out on physical attackers and uses the turn they switch out to either setup, Defog, Roost, etc. If that Pokemon is switched out right when Skarmory is brought in, what have you accomplished? In all likelihood, you just put yourself in a disadvantageous position simply because this Pokemon was designed to counter Baton Pass. Sure, you can phaze other setup sweepers, but how many of those are so problematic that you would resort to something that would, more often than not, leave you at a disadvantage? I doubt Heart Swap needs much explanation, especially given its users, the common one being the epitome of gimmick, along with the fact that it is practically nonexistant because of its sheer uselessness outside of Baton Pass teams.

Although the idea of the meta adapting to deal with this threat seems good on paper, it is nothing more than that. As previous experiences clearly demonstrate, adapting means either running the broken Pokemon/strategy or running counters specifically for it. However, unlike previous examples, the counters for Baton Pass are far less useful outside of Baton Pass matchups. Things like Heatran that were brought along for Genesect were immensely useful outside of Genesect but our current situation is not similar in this regards. By preparing yourself to efficiently counter Baton Pass, you lose out on your ability to be routinely successful against other playstyles. Thus, the idea of adaptation is inaccurately represented and certainly not healthy.



Do you know how efficient 3 Baton Pass users are versus a full BP team? Not very efficient, to keep it short.

May I ask one question?

If data from the suspect ladder is not useful because it doesn't represent the actual meta...

Then why are we using it to test Baton Pass?

Actually, let me expand the question. What is an actual meta? One in which people pretend Baton Pass doesn't exist and don't prepare for it? Or one where BP is actually part of the meta so people actually build their teams to prepare against it?

(edit: before anyone deletes my post because I'm not adding anything, I'm trying to start a line of argument here, which may add something when it gets to the conclusion).
 
May I ask one question?

If data from the suspect ladder is not useful because it doesn't represent the actual meta...

Then why are we using it to test Baton Pass?

Actually, let me expand the question. What is an actual meta? One in which people pretend Baton Pass doesn't exist and don't prepare for it? Or one where BP is actually part of the meta so people actually build their teams to prepare against it?

(edit: before anyone deletes my post because I'm not adding anything, I'm trying to start a line of argument here, which may add something when it gets to the conclusion).

Then let's unban Xerneas and all Ubers and make them legal, since you can build a team for them. . .

No one is saying BP chains are invincible. . . But you cannot deny that they make games lopsided and overcentralize.
What's a meta? A healthy competitive environment. One in which BP chains should not exist in. dEnIsSsS himself has admitted to it needing some form of a nerf. . .

I say this every time, and find myself repeating it too often, he is at the top of the ladder for a reason. He knows this team better than any of us possibly could, and yet he is for a nerfing? That's got to tell you something.
 
I like Stockpile Unaware Quagsire against baton pass teams.
I'd hate to mini mod, but how does this add to the conversation?
Stockpile only goes to +3, so while it may hold off Stored Power for a while, if you keep Quag out there they'll just keep stacking boosts. So Stockpile+Haze? Actually, that takes up two pretty much essential moves lots just to counter BP... That's not good.
Edit: Haze removes Stockpile boosts too. So this went from "I can see where you're coming from" to "this shit is stupid". Sorry man! (and also, thanks go to dEnIsSs for that info!)
May I ask one question?

If data from the suspect ladder is not useful because it doesn't represent the actual meta...

Then why are we using it to test Baton Pass?

Actually, let me expand the question. What is an actual meta? One in which people pretend Baton Pass doesn't exist and don't prepare for it? Or one where BP is actually part of the meta so people actually build their teams to prepare against it?

(edit: before anyone deletes my post because I'm not adding anything, I'm trying to start a line of argument here, which may add something when it gets to the conclusion).
I'm supporting this. While it is sort of bending the rules, it IS a good point, even if it is over thinking to an extent. It does raise potential issues in the whole "Smogon Meta". It almost makes me think that we should keep BP around a while longer and see how it develops. It's almost like gen 5s weather, while it was broken and overcentralising, it never got banned throughout the entire generation. Is it because people adapted to it? Is it because Smogon tweaked (as in banned Excadrill and DrizzleSwim, which were pretty broken) the play style to fit more into OU? While I did only start competitive battling at the and of the BW2 era, I did still see certain things that were common on Pokemon Online (Yes I started there, but I did use Smogons B/W analysis's to see what would work, but I digress)
Maybe we need to tweak a few things about Baton Pass and see where it goes from there. Just my humble opinion though.
 
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May I ask one question?

If data from the suspect ladder is not useful because it doesn't represent the actual meta...

Then why are we using it to test Baton Pass?

Actually, let me expand the question. What is an actual meta? One in which people pretend Baton Pass doesn't exist and don't prepare for it? Or one where BP is actually part of the meta so people actually build their teams to prepare against it?

(edit: before anyone deletes my post because I'm not adding anything, I'm trying to start a line of argument here, which may add something when it gets to the conclusion).

It is a good question although I thought I made it fairly obvious when I tried to elaborate on/clarify Jukain's post.

Disregarding or attempting to discredit the Suspect Ladder as an attempt to determine the fate of something simply because the ladder is not representative is entirely missing the point. Rather, the fact that this specific ladder is so unrepresentative of the current meta shows just how necessary action against BP is. To see why this is so, we need to take a look at previous suspect ladders. How much have the previous ladders and their individual "metas," so to speak, differed from the "actual meta" of that time? At least based on my experience, the difference between the two was marginal. Did anyone or can anyone successfully argue that this marginal difference was telling in any way? If so, please do. Otherwise, I think it is fairly straightforward that the vast difference we are seeing now only further supports the argument that BP cannot be ignored or left untouched. This difference shows that the current "meta" is not prepared to handle BP as it is now. The only way for BP to be handled is with similar drastic changes. Even if the Suspect Ladder is an exaggerated case, it's exaggeration is key in showing that the adaptation Ender suggested is unfavorable. This may not be the case if you believe that the "adaptation process" will be different than what I said earlier. If someone does disagree with that, I'd like to hear why and how it'll be different.
 
Then let's unban Xerneas and all Ubers and make them legal, since you can build a team for them. . .

No one is saying BP chains are invincible. . . But you cannot deny that they make games lopsided and overcentralize.
What's a meta? A healthy competitive environment. One in which BP chains should not exist in. dEnIsSsS himself has admitted to it needing some form of a nerf. . .

I say this every time, and find myself repeating it too often, he is at the top of the ladder for a reason. He knows this team better than any of us possibly could, and yet he is for a nerfing? That's got to tell you something.

Please don't appeal to authority. Just because he is the best BP player doesn't mean he is 100% right about everything that has to do with BP. Post your own arguments (sorry Denisss I'm not trying to offend you, just refute him).

I'm going to summarize your logic: you say the suspect ladder doesn't count... because it's not the actual meta, since the actual meta is one without bp. Because bp is unhealthy. Therefore, the argument that bp can be beaten because people are doing it in the suspect ladder is not valid. And therefore, bp is unhealthy.

You are using circular logic. You are making the assumption that BP is unhealthy and using it to prove that bp is unhealthy. You are building a personal assumption of what you want the meta to be, and then saying you want bp gone because it doesn't fit that assumption, when you were the one that removed bp from your personal meta in the first place.

Not just you, but most people arguing against bp here. You are all looking at the meta from the bp-less point of view, and acting like bp is an alien or something, which suddenly comes in and forces people to change things on their teams.

Now let me make this proposal. Assume BP is already part of the meta. It's been part of the meta since the beginning of the gen. It's as much part of the meta as HO or stall, and it will continue to be unless (and only when) it is banned. Going from that, you have to make a team, and you have to prepare it for BP just like you have to prepare it for everything else. You are not removing anything from your team to prepare for bp. Because your team doesn't exist until you finish preparing it for the entire meta, which includes bp. The question: can you do it?

The ladder results say you can. People are doing it and getting to the top of the ladder, despite the assumption that "preparing for bp makes you worse against everything else". It may make you a little worse against the other stuff, but that's not enough to make your team bad. And why should it? Having a team that can win against bp is anything other than bad. It's better than a team that refuses to prepare for bp at all and loses 9/10 versus against it. That's not a good team in my book.
 
May I ask one question?

If data from the suspect ladder is not useful because it doesn't represent the actual meta...

Then why are we using it to test Baton Pass?

Actually, let me expand the question. What is an actual meta? One in which people pretend Baton Pass doesn't exist and don't prepare for it? Or one where BP is actually part of the meta so people actually build their teams to prepare against it?

(edit: before anyone deletes my post because I'm not adding anything, I'm trying to start a line of argument here, which may add something when it gets to the conclusion).

Exactly. If people pack something specifically for Baton Pass, then their team is probably just weak to it. You can't make a team out of fucking all Steel/Bug types and ask for a ban on Fire Types because it's "over-centralizing". Even common pokemon like Thundurus (actually #25 in usage) can bring BP teams to a grinding halt.

Just because people have to prepare for a threat, that doesn't mean it should be banned. Tons of things are threats, including Landorus, Keldeo, Aegislash, etc. If you carry something specifically to check/counter those, that doesn't mean they're broken.
 
Please don't appeal to authority. Just because he is the best BP player doesn't mean he is 100% right about everything that has to do with BP. Post your own arguments (sorry Denisss I'm not trying to offend you, just refute him).

I'm going to summarize your logic: you say the suspect ladder doesn't count... because it's not the actual meta, since the actual meta is one without bp. Because bp is unhealthy. Therefore, the argument that bp can be beaten because people are doing it in the suspect ladder is not valid. And therefore, bp is unhealthy.

You are using circular logic. You are making the assumption that BP is unhealthy and using it to prove that bp is unhealthy. You are building a personal assumption of what you want the meta to be, and then saying you want bp gone because it doesn't fit that assumption, when you were the one that removed bp from your personal meta in the first place.

Not just you, but most people arguing against bp here. You are all looking at the meta from the bp-less point of view, and acting like bp is an alien or something, which suddenly comes in and forces people to change things on their teams.

Now let me make this proposal. Assume BP is already part of the meta. It's been part of the meta since the beginning of the gen. It's as much part of the meta as HO or stall, and it will continue to be unless (and only when) it is banned. Going from that, you have to make a team, and you have to prepare it for BP just like you have to prepare it for everything else. You are not removing anything from your team to prepare for bp. Because your team doesn't exist until you finish preparing it for the entire meta, which includes bp. The question: can you do it?

The ladder results say you can. People are doing it and getting to the top of the ladder, despite the assumption that "preparing for bp makes you worse against everything else". It may make you a little worse against the other stuff, but that's not enough to make your team bad. And why should it? Having a team that can win against bp is anything other than bad. It's better than a team that refuses to prepare for bp at all and loses 9/10 versus against it. That's not a good team in my book.

I wasn't giving him authority, I was making a point that there is a reason he is as high as he is on the ladder, I was also simply stating that since he did make this all relevant he'd be likely to know it head to toe.
I like how you didn't even acknowledge my reasoning behind why your logic of ". . . part of the meta so people actually build their teams to prepare against it" is so far gone.

I'm not sure the second half is for me since that's not anything I stated, but I feel I should drop a quick reply anyways. . .

The reason I can see them saying the Suspect ladder shouldn't count is because people are OVER preparing for BP, which is smart to do in a ladder centered around BP. That doesn't necessarily mean that same team is as viable outside of that ladder.


Exactly. If people pack something specifically for Baton Pass, then their team is probably just weak to it..

Please, Excuse the CAPS but. . .

EVERYTHING IS "WEAK" TO BP CHAINS.
 
I wasn't giving him authority, I was making a point that there is a reason he is as high as he is on the ladder, I was also simply stating that since he did make this all relevant he'd be likely to know it head to toe.
I like how you didn't even acknowledge my reasoning behind why your logic of ". . . part of the meta so people actually build their teams to prepare against it" is so far gone.

I'm not sure the second half is for me since that's not anything I stated, but I feel I should drop a quick reply anyways. . .

The reason I can see them saying the Suspect ladder shouldn't count is because people are OVER preparing for BP, which is smart to do in a ladder centered around BP. That doesn't necessarily mean that same team is as viable outside of that ladder.

Why isn't it viable? I'm not seeing the top teams in the suspect ladder being much different than in the regular ladder. The HO/Balanced teams are pretty much the same, which mixes of offensive pokemon who tend to give BP a hard time, and maybe an extra Taunt or Roar here and there (in stuff like Thundurus, Gyarados, Gardevoir and Gengar). The stall teams are packing things like Haze Quagsire, Clear Smog Amoongus (this one is a major pain in the ass to face), more Roar pokemon... and while they do have a harder match up against BP, there is a limit to how many Clear Smogs and Hazes a BP team can take before the residual damage kills it.

EVERYTHING IS "WEAK" TO BP CHAINS.

Everything, except people who prepare for BP.

Oh, but those don't count, because the only people who do are the ones who build their teams for a BP less environment, isn't it?
 
Everything, except people who prepare for BP to the point where the BP team had no chance to begin with.

Oh, but those don't count, because the only people who do are the ones who build their teams for an environment that has other threats, isn't it?
FTFY

Maybe on the surface it doesn't look so different, but people are loading up with anything that can potentially shut down BP. It's the ladder equivalent of counter-teaming, I don't know why you think that's a good thing or good for a balanced meta.
 
This notion is so entirely flawed in every aspect. To begin with, you completely seem to miss the point Jukain is making in the post that you quoted. What he is saying is that the suspect ladder is hardly representative of the actual meta because people are resorting to all-out countering Baton Pass simply because they know that it should technically be everywhere. This does not mean that BP is not as overpowered as people are making it out to be. Not sure how much you have at least looked at what people are running to counter BP but, if you have not seen much, Jukain sums it up pretty nicely when he says random shit bp counters. The specificity there essentially serves to further prove how ridiculous BP is rather than how overpowered it supposedly isn't. The counters are exactly as he said, random bp counters. People are running multiple obscure Pokemon specifically to counter BP and little if anything else. In the actual meta, how many teams do you see that run 4-6 BP counters, even by sheer coincidence if nothing else? Given what counters BP and where those Pokemon are on the usage stats, I'm pretty sure that it is more than fair to say that you rarely run into anyone of notable ranking that is fully/overly prepared for BP teams. Hence, Jukain's post that the suspect ladder is not representative of the actual meta is entirely accurate and supports the idea that some action needs to be taken against BP given the ridiculous things people are clearly resorting to to counter BP.

The idea of letting the meta adapt is so factitious that I am curious to know where exactly one gets such an idea. How many times has the meta "adapted" to something potentially broken? No wait, let me rephrase the question. How many times has the meta "adapted" to something potentially broken in a manner other than having everyone either use the broken subject or a counter for it specifically? As far as I can think back, never. Genesect is a prime example. Everyone either ran it or its counter. That means literally everyone. Project that "adaptation" to this situation and what do you end up with? Everyone either runs Baton Pass or counters Baton Pass. So what's the big deal, that's the meta adapting to a new threat? For starters, lets differentiate between the example of Genesect and this current situation with Baton Pass. Genesect could be efficiently and effectively countered by designating one Pokemon on your team specifically for it. Can the same be done with Baton Pass? If so, please do enlighten me, because I apparently am out of the loop. As far as I know, you cannot counter an entire BP team (Scolipede/Smeargle/Espeon/Sylveon/Vaporeon/Zapdos or Mr. Mime) with one or even two Pokemon. You need to designate much more of your team to counter a Baton Pass team. Oh wait, it seems that I forgot the list of less than 10 Pokemon that can, if played correctly, single-handedly stop Baton Pass. There, our problem is solved, right? But then how is that any different from the example of Genesect that I gave? You either run at least half of your team to counter Baton Pass or you run one of the few Pokemon from the list I mentioned earlier. Add on the fact that that list isn't exactly overflowing with splashable Pokemon and you'll see that it isn't much different. Whether you run many Pokemon to counter Baton Pass or one comparatively obscure Pokemon, you still are going out of your way to counter Baton Pass.

You did bring up elsewhere the question about why Baton Pass cannot be prepared for like any other type of team, such as stall or hyper offense. The reason is this. You can prepare for playstyles, such as stall and hyper offense, by having a Pokemon or two specifically put in for those teams while also being regularly useful against other playstyles and just in general. The same cannot be said for Baton Pass counters. How often will things like Red Card Skarmory or Heart Swap, to use some of your examples, be useful outside of Baton Pass teams? You could argue that Red Card can still be used to phaze, but is that even a good thing with Skarmory? Skarmory tends to be brought out on physical attackers and uses the turn they switch out to either setup, Defog, Roost, etc. If that Pokemon is switched out right when Skarmory is brought in, what have you accomplished? In all likelihood, you just put yourself in a disadvantageous position simply because this Pokemon was designed to counter Baton Pass. Sure, you can phaze other setup sweepers, but how many of those are so problematic that you would resort to something that would, more often than not, leave you at a disadvantage? I doubt Heart Swap needs much explanation, especially given its users, the common one being the epitome of gimmick, along with the fact that it is practically nonexistant because of its sheer uselessness outside of Baton Pass teams.

Although the idea of the meta adapting to deal with this threat seems good on paper, it is nothing more than that. As previous experiences clearly demonstrate, adapting means either running the broken Pokemon/strategy or running counters specifically for it. However, unlike previous examples, the counters for Baton Pass are far less useful outside of Baton Pass matchups. Things like Heatran that were brought along for Genesect were immensely useful outside of Genesect but our current situation is not similar in this regards. By preparing yourself to efficiently counter Baton Pass, you lose out on your ability to be routinely successful against other playstyles. Thus, the idea of adaptation is inaccurately represented and certainly not healthy.
If it doesn't accurately represent the meta what good does it do exactly? I think ninja charizard has a point.
If data from the suspect ladder is not useful because it doesn't represent the actual meta...

Then why are we using it to test Baton Pass?

Actually, let me expand the question. What is an actual meta? One in which people pretend Baton Pass doesn't exist and don't prepare for it? Or one where BP is actually part of the meta so people actually build their teams to prepare against it?
And if as you said "because people are resorting to all-out countering Baton Pass simply because they know that it should technically be everywhere." If this was true none of those people would be able to ladder simply because so many people have given up on running baton pass on the ladder. There are quite a few solid checks that are extremely viable outside of checking baton pass. Roar Chesnaught, Roar/Taunt Mega Gyarados while not standard certainly aren't "shit counters". Like I said earlier. Those teams will not stand a chance anywhere near the higher level of the ladder. So why is it still so hard for BP to thrive?

That's an interesting choice of words. You earlier accused me of being biased (this was elsewhere) I'm starting to think I'm not the only one. You're whole argument is centered in this paragraph is centered on the premise that baton pass is indeed broken. Go against a standard baton pass team and lead with pinsir or mawile. It's extremely rare a baton pass user will survive this encounter. Same with Thundurus-I or even landorus. All of those are extremely common pokemon. You don't need an entire team full of counters. But expecting a single pokemon to counter an entire machine is absurd. I think it's more because smogon has never seen anything so similar to this before you're having trouble understanding it. Like I said earlier should HO or Rain or w/e be banned because you can't check it all with a single pokemon? If you want to beat HO do you need more than one pokemon?

Everyone on the ladder isn't running BP or an entire team full of BP counters though... Let's give up the comparison to past suspects I think we can both agree it's slightly different and I probably shouldn't have used it earlier. If you go into team building process for the higher end of the ladder and don't have 1-2 pokemon for HO you're not going very far. Where is the difference here? Red Card Skarmory is pretty cool counter to any setup and heart swap is really just for the mirror.

Edit: Because stuff like mawile and landorus is perfectly viable outside of countering baton pass... I'd write more but you get the idea I hope. (Sorta feeling like crap)
 
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Please don't appeal to authority. Just because he is the best BP player doesn't mean he is 100% right about everything that has to do with BP. Post your own arguments (sorry Denisss I'm not trying to offend you, just refute him).

I'm going to summarize your logic: you say the suspect ladder doesn't count... because it's not the actual meta, since the actual meta is one without bp. Because bp is unhealthy. Therefore, the argument that bp can be beaten because people are doing it in the suspect ladder is not valid. And therefore, bp is unhealthy.

You are using circular logic. You are making the assumption that BP is unhealthy and using it to prove that bp is unhealthy. You are building a personal assumption of what you want the meta to be, and then saying you want bp gone because it doesn't fit that assumption, when you were the one that removed bp from your personal meta in the first place.

Not just you, but most people arguing against bp here. You are all looking at the meta from the bp-less point of view, and acting like bp is an alien or something, which suddenly comes in and forces people to change things on their teams.

Now let me make this proposal. Assume BP is already part of the meta. It's been part of the meta since the beginning of the gen. It's as much part of the meta as HO or stall, and it will continue to be unless (and only when) it is banned. Going from that, you have to make a team, and you have to prepare it for BP just like you have to prepare it for everything else. You are not removing anything from your team to prepare for bp. Because your team doesn't exist until you finish preparing it for the entire meta, which includes bp. The question: can you do it?

The ladder results say you can. People are doing it and getting to the top of the ladder, despite the assumption that "preparing for bp makes you worse against everything else". It may make you a little worse against the other stuff, but that's not enough to make your team bad. And why should it? Having a team that can win against bp is anything other than bad. It's better than a team that refuses to prepare for bp at all and loses 9/10 versus against it. That's not a good team in my book.

Same as below although I would like to add one thing specifically in regards to the last part in reference to first thing.

You tell him to not to appeal to authority yet you do the same thing. You claim that the fact that people have topped the ladder shows that they are capable of effectively dealing with BP while also dealing with everything else. This claim is flawed in so many aspects that I am curious as to how none of them stood out to you. To begin with, you assume that their ladder ranking means that they can beat BP teams. I am sure you are aware of this but I'll just call it to your attention once again, people at the top of the ladder have their fair share of losses. Nobody says that they beat BP teams and, assuming that they have beaten BP teams, nobody says that they won with a legitimate counter as opposed to things like crits or misplays. Regardless, it is more than possible to achieve a notable ladder ranking without beating Baton Pass teams given their relative lack of abundance.

In the face of your appeal to authority, I'd have to say that Moose's was much more valid. He deferred to someone who topped the ladder using Baton Pass, meaning that he knows what counters it and just how often it gets countered. So his experience is not only there but also justified. Trying to pass it off as an appeal to authority is intentionally trying to avoid someone with more experience than you who knows better.

Exactly. If people pack something specifically for Baton Pass, then their team is probably just weak to it. You can't make a team out of fucking all Steel/Bug types and ask for a ban on Fire Types because it's "over-centralizing". Even common pokemon like Thundurus (actually #25 in usage) can bring BP teams to a grinding halt.

Just because people have to prepare for a threat, that doesn't mean it should be banned. Tons of things are threats, including Landorus, Keldeo, Aegislash, etc. If you carry something specifically to check/counter those, that doesn't mean they're broken.

Since it seems that you are not understanding something along the way, can you list out all things that can effectively counter Baton Pass teams? List everything, doesn't even have to be common in OU.

If it doesn't accurately represent the meta what good does it do exactly? I think ninja charizard has a point.

And if as you said "because people are resorting to all-out countering Baton Pass simply because they know that it should technically be everywhere." If this was true none of those people would be able to ladder simply because so many people have given up on running baton pass on the ladder. There are quite a few solid checks that are extremely viable outside of checking baton pass. Roar Chesnaught, Roar/Taunt Mega Gyarados while not standard certainly aren't "shit counters". Like I said earlier. Those teams will not stand a chance anywhere near the higher level of the ladder. So why is it still so hard for BP to thrive?

That's an interesting choice of words. You earlier accused me of being biased (this was elsewhere) I'm starting to think I'm not the only one. You're whole argument is centered in this paragraph is centered on the premise that baton pass is indeed broken. Go against a standard baton pass team and lead with pinsir or mawile. It's extremely rare a baton pass user will survive this encounter. Same with Thundurus-I or even landorus. All of those are extremely common pokemon. You don't need an entire team full of counters. But expecting a single pokemon to counter an entire machine is absurd. I think it's more because smogon has never seen anything so similar to this before you're having trouble understanding it. Like I said earlier should HO or Rain or w/e be banned because you can't check it all with a single pokemon? If you want to beat HO do you need more than one pokemon?

Everyone on the ladder isn't running BP or an entire team full of BP counters though... Let's give up the comparison to past suspects I think we can both agree it's slightly different and I probably shouldn't have used it earlier. If you go into team building process for the higher end of the ladder and don't have 1-2 pokemon for HO you're not going very far. Where is the difference here? Red Card Skarmory is pretty cool counter to any setup and heart swap is really just for the mirror.

I believe that I already answered that in detail in a later post, I'd recommend reading that one as well.

Your conclusion is incorrect in that you are assuming that, because people were resorting to all-out countering Baton Pass, everyone else ceased to play Baton Pass. When you actually go and play on the Suspect Ladder, even shortly, you will quickly realize the situation being described rather than trying to understand it simply based on what people are saying. As for your new examples, you seem to have misunderstood the statement made earlier, primarily because you took it out of context. How many situations would Mega Gyarados rather have Taunt/Roar over Dragon Dance? In general, how much more or less effective is Taunt/Roar Mega Gyarados over Dragon Dance Mega Gyarados? I am pretty sure the answers are fairly obvious, especially given the current meta.

Please link me, here or there, to where I might have called you biased so that I can see the context in which I might have said that. While you are at it, please do more than call someone biased. Rather, try to explain and prove that they are biased. Until then, you are just pointing fingers, although I supposedly did so too. As for your four Pokemon that you listed off and called extremely common, I am going to have to invite you to go look at the usage stats before making such statements. Your last couple of sentences in the third paragraph completely ignore everything I said in regards to differentiating between BP and playstyles. Instead of typing it all out again, I'll just have to ask you to read it and, if you did, address it in an attempt to show me why I said is invalid, making it so that your point still holds any water.

"Pretty cool" is an entirely pointless and meaningless observation and seeing how rare mirror matches are, I don't understand why you even bothered to note that fact.
 
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It is a good question although I thought I made it fairly obvious when I tried to elaborate on/clarify Jukain's post.

Disregarding or attempting to discredit the Suspect Ladder as an attempt to determine the fate of something simply because the ladder is not representative is entirely missing the point. Rather, the fact that this specific ladder is so unrepresentative of the current meta shows just how necessary action against BP is. To see why this is so, we need to take a look at previous suspect ladders. How much have the previous ladders and their individual "metas," so to speak, differed from the "actual meta" of that time? At least based on my experience, the difference between the two was marginal. Did anyone or can anyone successfully argue that this marginal difference was telling in any way? If so, please do. Otherwise, I think it is fairly straightforward that the vast difference we are seeing now only further supports the argument that BP cannot be ignored or left untouched. This difference shows that the current "meta" is not prepared to handle BP as it is now. The only way for BP to be handled is with similar drastic changes. Even if the Suspect Ladder is an exaggerated case, it's exaggeration is key in showing that the adaptation Ender suggested is unfavorable. This may not be the case if you believe that the "adaptation process" will be different than what I said earlier. If someone does disagree with that, I'd like to hear why and how it'll be different.
The only solution to this would be to simply extend the suspect test so it lasts a month and then analyze the usage stats. That would be quite interesting and end this part of the debate that's pure speculation. (I obviously disagree but to my point neither of us can win this part)
I believe that I already answered that in detail in a later post, I'd recommend reading that one as well.

Your conclusion is incorrect in that you are assuming that, because people were resorting to all-out countering Baton Pass, everyone else ceased to play Baton Pass. When you actually go and play on the Suspect Ladder, even shortly, you will quickly realize the situation being described rather than trying to understand it simply based on what people are saying. As for your new examples, you seem to have misunderstood the statement made earlier, primarily because you took it out of context. How many situations would Mega Gyarados rather have Taunt/Roar over Dragon Dance? In general, how much more or less effective is Taunt/Roar Mega Gyarados over Dragon Dance Mega Gyarados? I am pretty sure the answers are fairly obvious, especially given the current meta.

Please link me, here or there, to where I might have called you biased so that I can see the context in which I might have said that. As for your four Pokemon that you listed off and called extremely common, I am going to have to invite you to go look at the usage stats before making such statements. Your last couple of sentences in the third paragraph completely ignore everything I said in regards to differentiating between BP and playstyles.

"Pretty cool" is an entirely pointless and meaningless observation and seeing how rare mirror matches are, I don't understand why you even bothered to note that fact.
I never made that conclusion. And I've been watching the ladder as much as possible since day one. Taunt mega gyarados is a pretty amazing stall breaker and probably has a pretty cool role. Beating BP is of course another bonus. You cannot keep trying to slap down pokemon adding a move or altogether doing something different because "the current meta" the meta adapted to rain, HO, stall with different sets and different pokemon emerged to counter them. Running taunt on mega gyarados is totally not unviable and while not as powerful as dragon dance is far from a bad meta change.

I
'll go edit my response I had wrote something but my computer is derping (pun non-intended) around. Also it was the pooj pokemon thread.

Thundurus 16% Pinsir 8% Landorus 7% Mawile 9% Erm uncommon how exactly? Heart Swap is lethal in the mirror which is pretty common on the suspect ladder... And yeah its fucking cool.
 
So tell me, what do I lead with if I have a stall team? What about a balanced team? Not everyone carries Hyper Offense, in case you were unaware. You're making a blanket statement for something that shouldn't be shrouded over. . . You don't think more skilled players have dealt with people thinking "Oh, I'll lead with this."? If not then you should open your eyes. Oh, you're going to open with TFlame to take out Scolipede, cool, 'cause I opened up with Vaporeon/Zapdos (Zapdos less so). And if you're cool with your TFlame losing more than half of it's HP with a Brave Bid, be my guest, Smeargle will gladly put your one huge threat to sleep with <50% left.

Don't get me wrong, I've beaten my fair share of higher laddered BP players, but that's because they made one wrong move allowing me to tear their wall back down or a lucky crit. In the hands of even some of the least competent players it can turn what should have been a 0-4 match into a 6-0, much like mKanga many of the things that have rightfully gotten the boot.

"This complex ban crushes the core of BP and makes it much more difficult to use, thus creating more strategies to use if BP wants to survive. With a BP chain of 3, then there is no way to check a variety of threats at the same time - something akin to the 4 Moveslot syndrome"

That's precisely the point. . .

EDIT: Since it dEniSsSs' presence reminded me. . .

"Quote from the BP master himself": "Baton Pass REALLY deserves to be nerfed because it is the reason why people actually use Haze Gengar, Taunt Mega Gyarados and other useless stuff (this is such a sad thing). Full Baton Pass is the best play style in my honest opinion, since it can win against both Stall, Balance and Hyper Offense teams with ease (unless they carry a very nice counter/check to this kind of strategy). It is is hard as hell for anybody to face "

I personally play balanced, and I always have a flying mon to deal w/ Scolipede. Its a matter of tweaking teams for balance.

As far as stall goes, every playstyle has good and bad matchups against other styles. My balance teams struggle to beat stall because its not a good matchup. One playstyle will always have an advantage over another.

Yeah I used the quote from Dennis to justify why I would vote for option 2 if I got the reqs as opposed to other paths.

I will admit that BP is hard, but like Ninja Charizard has been saying its not impossible to beat. Pokemon who are actually pretty good, such as Yanmega, can threaten a majority of the BP team.

Back to not failing at getting reqs lol

EDIT:
"Quote from the BP master himself": "Baton Pass REALLY deserves to be nerfed because it is the reason why people actually use Haze Gengar, Taunt Mega Gyarados and other useless stuff (this is such a sad thing). Full Baton Pass is the best play style in my honest opinion, since it can win against both Stall, Balance and Hyper Offense teams with ease (unless they carry a very nice counter/check to this kind of strategy). It is is hard as hell for anybody to face "

Yeah if I get reqs I'm voting for a BP nerf. I was using Dennis to justify opt 2
 
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Looked at some replays of some top ppl on the ladder. Here is what I saw:
A lot of Thundurus
Mega Pinsir and Mawile
Trace CM Gardevoir
Ditto
Sticky Web+Mega Heracross
CM Unaware Clefable
Diggersby
Mega Alakazam
Talonflame
Landorous
DeoxyS with taunt, PsychoBoost, knockoff, thunderbolt
Tail Glow Manaphy
Taunt Sabeleye
Mega Medicham
Gengar

I will admit a lot of these are not too good on defensive teams, but if defensive teams are bad, then they are bad. Sun in horrible this gen, but no one is complaining things should be banned for sun. So if BP makes stall unviable then that is just how it is, least that is how it seems according to smogon history with bans.

All the things above seem to work quite well to beat baton pass, but are not unviable otherwise and in fact are quite good.

I will say a lot of the reasoning I have seen though is circular, which really isn't helping your cause.

Also really what is the point of the suspect, if it is inaccurate and people are going to ignore its results?
 
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