Don't think this thread has been linked here yet:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-monotype-viability-rankings.3507565/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ou-monotype-viability-rankings.3507565/
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Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]
- Thread starter ryan
- Start date
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DoW
formally Death on Wings
>Most popular OM not even on the first page of the OM subforum...
Ok, I think it can be agreed by everyone can agree Swift Swim as it is is broken. For those of you who don't agree, here's Haunter being thrashed by it.
Hollywood would it be possible to get a decision on this at some point? Personally I think that implementing Aldaron's proposal would nerf the tactic enough without outright banning the tactic, allowing plenty of variety in the metagame without making it broken. I've written previously about how banning Drizzle with Swift Swim would mean a water team would lose a lot of momentum in getting up the rain, giving opposing teams plenty of time to react, so I think this would be enough to deal with the tactic. However an outright ban of Swift Swim would still be plenty better than allowing it to stay in the metagame, I think.
Ok, I think it can be agreed by everyone can agree Swift Swim as it is is broken. For those of you who don't agree, here's Haunter being thrashed by it.
Hollywood would it be possible to get a decision on this at some point? Personally I think that implementing Aldaron's proposal would nerf the tactic enough without outright banning the tactic, allowing plenty of variety in the metagame without making it broken. I've written previously about how banning Drizzle with Swift Swim would mean a water team would lose a lot of momentum in getting up the rain, giving opposing teams plenty of time to react, so I think this would be enough to deal with the tactic. However an outright ban of Swift Swim would still be plenty better than allowing it to stay in the metagame, I think.
Overseer Steel
Banned deucer.
ive changed my mind, ss isnt even that op any more, bulky water is much harder to beat. nothing needs to be done imo
I believe SS is pretty unbalanced if used in conjunction with Drizzle. I spent a lot of time using my SS+Drizzle team on the ladder and in tournaments to help get me familiar with the power of SS+Drizzle. And what I found was that SS+Drizzle pretty much has a certain win against some types and playstyles. Below i've listed scenarios that I have seen in my experience against specific types:
Normal - When playing against normal monotypes, usually the offensive pressure by SS teams is handled fairly well assuming the normal team is stall-styled. If not, it usually gets trampled without the help of chansey/blissey/snorlax/porygon2.
Fight - CC spam and a lot of priority is pretty decent against SS+Drizzle from what i've seen as access to sash breloom really does leave a dent in the SS-user's team. Nothing appreciates a spore followed by a bullet seed.
Flying - Flying is really fun to face. Access to Ludicolo/Kingdra spamming ice beams would make you think you have the advantage but bulky Zapdos can help with that as well as the top threat for SS teams, Mega Charizard Y. Drought + Solarbeam is really tricky to handle for SS users so you must be careful in preserving Politoed and predicting the right time to 'freeze' Mega Charizard Y in absorbing sunlight when it is going for Solarbeam by activating Drizzle with switching in Politoed.
Poison - Not so popular but really fun to see. With use of Tentacruel, it can tank some water moves. Access to Toxicroak with Dry Skin is also helpful and uses Drizzle to its own advantage as well. Mega Venusaur especially is amazing in stopping water in general. Greninja is probably the most effective to help in this scenario.
Ground - Ah, poor ground. Only hope is to preserve Hippowdon and Gastrodon for Storm Drain and Sandstorm. Drizzle+SS has access to Ludicolo as well as Greninja whom can both utilize Giga Drain and Grass Knot respectively. Ground usually does not survive against SS+Drizzle.
Rock - Rock is not very common though even if it preserves Tyranitar for Sandstorm, it usually does not help and still gets destroyed by SS+Drizzle. Cradily with Storm Drain is essential to survive (even then, Ludicolo can Focus Blast), or else Rock has very little chance of surviving.
Bug - Access to Sticky Web helps combat the speed boosts by SS as well as sash Galvantula with Thunder/Giga Drain leaving dents on the SS team. Although no walls on bug can really enjoy taking countless rain boosted Waterfalls and and Hydro Pumps which in turn falls down to the offensive pressure by SS.
Ghost - Some ghost types have access to grass moves though the ones that utilize this well are not bulky (exception of Jellicent). Will-O-Wisp is tricky sometimes too. I found SS is pretty dominant over ghost usually.
Steel - Access to Klefki and Ferrothorn is awesome as paralysis and a strong bulky grass type to tank water hits is very helpful. Steel is pretty neutral usually (situational though)
Fire - No chance to survive unless Mega Charizard Y/Ninetales is on the team. Same condition as with Flying. Drought makes it tricky.
Water - Ludicolo is great and pretty much dominates unless Suicune or something is setup already.
Grass - Ice Beam is great although Ferrothorn/Mega Venusaur/Cradily is hard to handle unless Greninja can pull through.
Electric - Pretty situational. SS tends to overpower despite the type disadvantage
Psychic - Neutral i'd say.
Ice - Freeze Dry is cool but still not enough. The offensive pressure by SS is too much from my experience. Avalugg is probably the only thing to tank physical hits which is obviously not enough
Dragon - If the SS+Drizzle user has Kingdra, you can pretty much outrage spam and repeat. Only thing to lookout for is Goodra to avoid the gooey speed drop. Other than that, it is a clean win usually.
Dark - Tyranitar is nice but can't survive too many water moves so it won't outlast Politoed most of the time. Not many walls can endure rain boosted Waterfalls/Hydro Pumps so eventually the pressure is too much for Dark and therefore falls to SS. Need to be cautious for Sucker Punches though, particularly from Bisharp.
Fairy - Need to watch out for Mega Mawile/Klefki but other than that, it gets eventually overwhelmed by the SS pressure
This has just been my experience with every type i've fought with Drizzle+SS and I am interested to see what other people say. Go mess around with SS+Drizzle and post here your experiences, replays and thoughts. I've given my Drizzle+SS team that I created for anyone to use here
tl;dr Summary: HO teams/some balanced teams and Ground monotype teams are severely effected by Drizzle+SS and are really at a disadvantage. If the opponent is not running stall, SS+Drizzle tends to dominate. If the combination of these abilities were to be banned, it'd be much more fair as the user would have to sacrifice a turn/moveslot to set rain up as well as not being able to switch in Politoed and activate Drizzle whenever they need it. This also allows for opponents to run other weather moves to counter rain if they wanted. That being said, i'd support a Drizzle+SS ban.
Normal - When playing against normal monotypes, usually the offensive pressure by SS teams is handled fairly well assuming the normal team is stall-styled. If not, it usually gets trampled without the help of chansey/blissey/snorlax/porygon2.
Fight - CC spam and a lot of priority is pretty decent against SS+Drizzle from what i've seen as access to sash breloom really does leave a dent in the SS-user's team. Nothing appreciates a spore followed by a bullet seed.
Flying - Flying is really fun to face. Access to Ludicolo/Kingdra spamming ice beams would make you think you have the advantage but bulky Zapdos can help with that as well as the top threat for SS teams, Mega Charizard Y. Drought + Solarbeam is really tricky to handle for SS users so you must be careful in preserving Politoed and predicting the right time to 'freeze' Mega Charizard Y in absorbing sunlight when it is going for Solarbeam by activating Drizzle with switching in Politoed.
Poison - Not so popular but really fun to see. With use of Tentacruel, it can tank some water moves. Access to Toxicroak with Dry Skin is also helpful and uses Drizzle to its own advantage as well. Mega Venusaur especially is amazing in stopping water in general. Greninja is probably the most effective to help in this scenario.
Ground - Ah, poor ground. Only hope is to preserve Hippowdon and Gastrodon for Storm Drain and Sandstorm. Drizzle+SS has access to Ludicolo as well as Greninja whom can both utilize Giga Drain and Grass Knot respectively. Ground usually does not survive against SS+Drizzle.
Rock - Rock is not very common though even if it preserves Tyranitar for Sandstorm, it usually does not help and still gets destroyed by SS+Drizzle. Cradily with Storm Drain is essential to survive (even then, Ludicolo can Focus Blast), or else Rock has very little chance of surviving.
Bug - Access to Sticky Web helps combat the speed boosts by SS as well as sash Galvantula with Thunder/Giga Drain leaving dents on the SS team. Although no walls on bug can really enjoy taking countless rain boosted Waterfalls and and Hydro Pumps which in turn falls down to the offensive pressure by SS.
Ghost - Some ghost types have access to grass moves though the ones that utilize this well are not bulky (exception of Jellicent). Will-O-Wisp is tricky sometimes too. I found SS is pretty dominant over ghost usually.
Steel - Access to Klefki and Ferrothorn is awesome as paralysis and a strong bulky grass type to tank water hits is very helpful. Steel is pretty neutral usually (situational though)
Fire - No chance to survive unless Mega Charizard Y/Ninetales is on the team. Same condition as with Flying. Drought makes it tricky.
Water - Ludicolo is great and pretty much dominates unless Suicune or something is setup already.
Grass - Ice Beam is great although Ferrothorn/Mega Venusaur/Cradily is hard to handle unless Greninja can pull through.
Electric - Pretty situational. SS tends to overpower despite the type disadvantage
Psychic - Neutral i'd say.
Ice - Freeze Dry is cool but still not enough. The offensive pressure by SS is too much from my experience. Avalugg is probably the only thing to tank physical hits which is obviously not enough
Dragon - If the SS+Drizzle user has Kingdra, you can pretty much outrage spam and repeat. Only thing to lookout for is Goodra to avoid the gooey speed drop. Other than that, it is a clean win usually.
Dark - Tyranitar is nice but can't survive too many water moves so it won't outlast Politoed most of the time. Not many walls can endure rain boosted Waterfalls/Hydro Pumps so eventually the pressure is too much for Dark and therefore falls to SS. Need to be cautious for Sucker Punches though, particularly from Bisharp.
Fairy - Need to watch out for Mega Mawile/Klefki but other than that, it gets eventually overwhelmed by the SS pressure
This has just been my experience with every type i've fought with Drizzle+SS and I am interested to see what other people say. Go mess around with SS+Drizzle and post here your experiences, replays and thoughts. I've given my Drizzle+SS team that I created for anyone to use here
tl;dr Summary: HO teams/some balanced teams and Ground monotype teams are severely effected by Drizzle+SS and are really at a disadvantage. If the opponent is not running stall, SS+Drizzle tends to dominate. If the combination of these abilities were to be banned, it'd be much more fair as the user would have to sacrifice a turn/moveslot to set rain up as well as not being able to switch in Politoed and activate Drizzle whenever they need it. This also allows for opponents to run other weather moves to counter rain if they wanted. That being said, i'd support a Drizzle+SS ban.
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I would also wAnt it to get ban it once happened to me with my fire team in ladder
Honestly, I'm still not sure about banning Drizzle Swim anymore. Balanced Water is definitely harder to handle and used commonly, but Drizzle Swim shuts down a lot of different play-styles like HO Fighting. But from what I can see, Drizzle Swim is a lot easier to use and exerts tons of pressure onto the opponent. Drizzle Swim is something that definitely needs to be looked at. #stoptherain
i say it's fine but if you're going to do sometihng make swift swim pokemon allowed 2
Causter
formerly GymLeaderCauster
So I've been stressing this rather lately. I find Swift Swim to be quite an awesome ability. It allows you to see Pokemon that you wouldn't normally see outside of the rain (i.e Golduck, Seismitoed, and the always lovable Surskit, because that's actually a thing).
However, it appears as if defeating the Swift Swim strategy is easier said than done. Water reigns supreme over its common weather counterparts, being Sandstorm and Sun (implemented normally by Rock/Ground and Fire, respectively). You always have the option of just switching into Politoed and eliminating the opposing weather effects, which certainly helps when dealing with MegaZard Y. Most water teams that are run re of the Swift Swim kind, and, unless the opposing player can find a way to counter it, those battles will usually end in favor of the Swift Swim team.
I don't come in favor of banning Swift Swim, however. If you recall to the last generation of the metagame, we resolved this solution by implementing a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, which is still active in the lower tiers; having fought in NU myself, you had to implement a faster rain setter, and you had to carry Rain Dance on more than just one Pokemon. In that time, it can easily be predicted and either stopped or checked through a switch, unless you came unprepared (that's your fault, so don't whine about it).
What I normally see is users whining about how they can't stop it. It honestly only appears broken when you have Politoed's Drizzle playing a huge part in setting it all up. It'll be more challenging to Swift Swim users to run a Swift Swim team if it lacked that glorious Drizzle ability.
I see a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban being the best option for now. If you recall, there is a certain Fire Pokemon that has the ability to set up the sun and spam Solarbeam if need be, and that mon isn't Ninetails. I do wonder how a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban will affect that specifically.
However, it appears as if defeating the Swift Swim strategy is easier said than done. Water reigns supreme over its common weather counterparts, being Sandstorm and Sun (implemented normally by Rock/Ground and Fire, respectively). You always have the option of just switching into Politoed and eliminating the opposing weather effects, which certainly helps when dealing with MegaZard Y. Most water teams that are run re of the Swift Swim kind, and, unless the opposing player can find a way to counter it, those battles will usually end in favor of the Swift Swim team.
I don't come in favor of banning Swift Swim, however. If you recall to the last generation of the metagame, we resolved this solution by implementing a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, which is still active in the lower tiers; having fought in NU myself, you had to implement a faster rain setter, and you had to carry Rain Dance on more than just one Pokemon. In that time, it can easily be predicted and either stopped or checked through a switch, unless you came unprepared (that's your fault, so don't whine about it).
What I normally see is users whining about how they can't stop it. It honestly only appears broken when you have Politoed's Drizzle playing a huge part in setting it all up. It'll be more challenging to Swift Swim users to run a Swift Swim team if it lacked that glorious Drizzle ability.
I see a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban being the best option for now. If you recall, there is a certain Fire Pokemon that has the ability to set up the sun and spam Solarbeam if need be, and that mon isn't Ninetails. I do wonder how a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban will affect that specifically.
Barida
Banned deucer.
I believe that We should ban swift swim and why you may be thinking?
Swift swim has caused many people to rage, due to its great ability of out speeding other targets most Pokemon like Kingdra wouldn't out speed. Most common Swift Swim team are, Kingdra,Kabutos,Lulicolo/etc,Poloitoad, etc,etc . This basic swift swim team causes many problems to are meta and i believe it should be erased from the meta. Kingdra usual set is
Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
Now lets see some of the damage vicious pokemon causes:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos in Rain: 276-325 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Rain: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Rain: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Alright i just used one of the more bulkier pokemons in the game and Kingdra is destroying most of these pokemons that are easy 2hk0
Now lets take a look at Kindra best friend in Swift Swim, Kabutos:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 149-177 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO (If they carry sword dance then welp)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 343-406 (89.3 - 105.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron in Rain: 122-146 (35.4 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Alright in some people eyes this is nothing but remember Mega Aggron is one of the strongest tanks in the game on the DEF Side of course)
252+ Atk Choice Band Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran in Rain: 410-486 (106.2 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now lets talk about weaknesses why don't we:
Fire Monotype- The only counter to swift swim on a fire monotype team is making sure you have Mega Charizard-Y alive and spamming solar beams and let say they get rocks up and you go in to torkoal, torkoal isn't living most swift swim pokemon in the rain so yeah.
Ground: Gastradon. Hippo. Get Lucky? Most skilled battlers pulled this off before but its a very hard task and your going to need to get your face dirty for this one because when its ground vs water.... someone is getting alot of sleep less nights and it aint the water user
Rock: I haven't explored with rock alot in this gen but just looking at my team builder. Swift Swim vs Rock. /Forfeit can be used on showdown.
Conclusion:
Alright what do i believe at the moment? i believe swift swim should be banned, it shouldn't be reduced to a certain number of swift swimmers i believe we should ban it from the Monotype Community im tired of my little birds getting dismantled by a bunch of swift swim users. Alright if you disagree with anything i said just leave a comment and im sure to answer back while i got time
Swift swim has caused many people to rage, due to its great ability of out speeding other targets most Pokemon like Kingdra wouldn't out speed. Most common Swift Swim team are, Kingdra,Kabutos,Lulicolo/etc,Poloitoad, etc,etc . This basic swift swim team causes many problems to are meta and i believe it should be erased from the meta. Kingdra usual set is
Kingdra @ Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Draco Meteor
- Dragon Pulse
Now lets see some of the damage vicious pokemon causes:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos in Rain: 276-325 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mew in Rain: 256-303 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Rain: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Alright i just used one of the more bulkier pokemons in the game and Kingdra is destroying most of these pokemons that are easy 2hk0
Now lets take a look at Kindra best friend in Swift Swim, Kabutos:
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 149-177 (44.6 - 52.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO (If they carry sword dance then welp)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 343-406 (89.3 - 105.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Aggron in Rain: 122-146 (35.4 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Alright in some people eyes this is nothing but remember Mega Aggron is one of the strongest tanks in the game on the DEF Side of course)
252+ Atk Choice Band Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Heatran in Rain: 410-486 (106.2 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now lets talk about weaknesses why don't we:
Fire Monotype- The only counter to swift swim on a fire monotype team is making sure you have Mega Charizard-Y alive and spamming solar beams and let say they get rocks up and you go in to torkoal, torkoal isn't living most swift swim pokemon in the rain so yeah.
Ground: Gastradon. Hippo. Get Lucky? Most skilled battlers pulled this off before but its a very hard task and your going to need to get your face dirty for this one because when its ground vs water.... someone is getting alot of sleep less nights and it aint the water user
Rock: I haven't explored with rock alot in this gen but just looking at my team builder. Swift Swim vs Rock. /Forfeit can be used on showdown.
Conclusion:
Alright what do i believe at the moment? i believe swift swim should be banned, it shouldn't be reduced to a certain number of swift swimmers i believe we should ban it from the Monotype Community im tired of my little birds getting dismantled by a bunch of swift swim users. Alright if you disagree with anything i said just leave a comment and im sure to answer back while i got time
I believe Swift Swim isn't the main problem here, the actual problem is Drizzle+Swift Swim.
Swift Swim is one of the most popular ability on water teams. But to use that ability you need rain, and by rain I mean Politoed. That Pokemon is only popular on water teams because of it's famous ability Drizzle, and that's the only cause that makes Politoed used on Water Teams.
The problem about this ability is that, when that Pokemon is sent out, it makes it rain. Giving a boost, and a turn to pick the right Pokemon that will benefit of the Rain. By other words i mean the problem is Drizzle here, you can just switch in and BOOM! It's raining.
By not allowing Drizzle+SS in a team, it will be a half problem since water teams can still use Rain Dance to make it rain but that will take them a turn, good enough to think of a counter or Attack the Pokemon using Rain Dance.
Here are the types when they are against Swift Swim:
Dragon: The Dragon type only suffers from Swift Swim if the opponent have Kingdra. The only counter to SS Outrage Kingdra for Dragons is Goodra with the ability Gooey.
Psychic: Psychic Doesn't suffer much from the Swift Swim core but it can receive some serious damage by the other team.
Ground: Despite having Gastrodon or Hippowdown, Ground teams suffer the most damage against Swift Swim. The Main Threat is Life Orb Ludicolo, having access to Ice Beam, Hydro Pump and Giga Drain and Rain Dance it can take the entire Ground Team in some turns that can be counted on both hands.
Dark: Dark suffers also damage from Swift Swim even though dark team have access to great walls like Mandibuzz/Umbreon and the Confuse Ray/WoW Sableye, Tyranitar is a great Weather Changer but after it's down, the opponent can just go into Politoed and make it rain *sigh* Again.
Fire: Although suffering from supper-effective damage from water, Fire can stand tall against swift swim this Gen. By the apparition of Char-Y, Fire Teams doesn't have to worry about Rain anymore, Drought+Solar Beam say goodbye water types. But what would be nightmare is the addition of Sap Sipper Azumarill in the team, and that where Fire knows they lost.
Fighting: Most fighting types are frail, so they can't take a hit from a double speed-ed Pokemon under the rain, specially not a specs/LO Kingdra.
Steel: Steel already suffers a little bit against water, but they can take the over-hand with Ferrothorn but that's when Ludicolo Appears with its Ice Beams and Hydro Cannons.
Flying: Swift Swim isn't a huge problem for flying, Thanks to Bulky Zapdos/Mandibuzz/Skarmory and the help of a Char-Y.
Grass: Normally Grass has the upper hand against water teams, but not when SS is around, as there's Pokemon who have access to both Swift Swim and Ice Beam (Ludicolo) Even though grass can just stall until the Rain is over with Mega-Venusaur, it's still a problem to them.
Bug: Bugs have a safe counter against Swift Swim teams thanks to sticky webs. But there's still a speed boost around and most Bug Pokemon aren't prepared to take a hit from a Specs/Life Orb Outrage Kingdra or a Stone Edge from Kabutops.
Electric: Electric still has the upper hand against SS Teams thanks to Galvantula having access to Sticky Webs.
Normal: Normal doesn't suffer a lot from Swift Swim. Normal has Access to Smeargle (Rarely Seen) that can learn Sticky Webs. And to Defensive walls, Porygon2 and Chansey/Blissey, as well as Slaking who can return the hit.
Ghost: Swift Swim cause serious damage on ghost teams because the lack of speed and defense, the only counter to this would be Jellicent or the Prankeye
Ice: This type would suffer lot between the hands of swift swim but doesn't thanks to Abomasnow's Hail and GigaDrain. But like i said before, killing Abomasnow and switching to Politoed again would be the only objective for the SS user.
Poison: This type can find it's way back to the winning road against Water, thanks to Tentacruel and Dry Skin Toxicroak.
Fairy: This type can also counter Swift Swim, and doesn't suffer a lot of Damage, thanks to the double screens from Klefki and Whimsicott.
Rock: ggwp SS wrecks rock ENTIRELY.
Water: May theSmartest Swift Swim user win!
CONCLUSION:
Some types suffer A LOT from Swift Swim, some other can find a counter to it, and some other are neutral to it.
The Problem like i explained is DRIZZLE+SWIFT SWIM.
Why? Does it needs explaining? Just by going to Politoed you create rain.
What if Drizzle+SS was banned, there's still Rain Dance around: Correctly! Rain Dance can be countered by Taunt, any Pokemon with higher speed, plus a sudden change with the weather by switching in to T-tar (Rock/dark) or Abomasnow(Grass/Ice) (...) to stop the rain.
But if Drizzle+SS got banned, people would be forced to choose between SS+Rain Dance or Drizzle alone. They would go for Drizzle alone, why? Char-Z Y Drought Solar Beam unless they want to run a sap sipper Azumarill. Then again a new war would begin, water users would complain about Char-Y Drought+Solar Beam Combo.
NB: Sorry if i forgot to mention something or give an example to a type.
Swift Swim is one of the most popular ability on water teams. But to use that ability you need rain, and by rain I mean Politoed. That Pokemon is only popular on water teams because of it's famous ability Drizzle, and that's the only cause that makes Politoed used on Water Teams.
The problem about this ability is that, when that Pokemon is sent out, it makes it rain. Giving a boost, and a turn to pick the right Pokemon that will benefit of the Rain. By other words i mean the problem is Drizzle here, you can just switch in and BOOM! It's raining.
By not allowing Drizzle+SS in a team, it will be a half problem since water teams can still use Rain Dance to make it rain but that will take them a turn, good enough to think of a counter or Attack the Pokemon using Rain Dance.
Here are the types when they are against Swift Swim:
Dragon: The Dragon type only suffers from Swift Swim if the opponent have Kingdra. The only counter to SS Outrage Kingdra for Dragons is Goodra with the ability Gooey.
Psychic: Psychic Doesn't suffer much from the Swift Swim core but it can receive some serious damage by the other team.
Ground: Despite having Gastrodon or Hippowdown, Ground teams suffer the most damage against Swift Swim. The Main Threat is Life Orb Ludicolo, having access to Ice Beam, Hydro Pump and Giga Drain and Rain Dance it can take the entire Ground Team in some turns that can be counted on both hands.
Dark: Dark suffers also damage from Swift Swim even though dark team have access to great walls like Mandibuzz/Umbreon and the Confuse Ray/WoW Sableye, Tyranitar is a great Weather Changer but after it's down, the opponent can just go into Politoed and make it rain *sigh* Again.
Fire: Although suffering from supper-effective damage from water, Fire can stand tall against swift swim this Gen. By the apparition of Char-Y, Fire Teams doesn't have to worry about Rain anymore, Drought+Solar Beam say goodbye water types. But what would be nightmare is the addition of Sap Sipper Azumarill in the team, and that where Fire knows they lost.
Fighting: Most fighting types are frail, so they can't take a hit from a double speed-ed Pokemon under the rain, specially not a specs/LO Kingdra.
Steel: Steel already suffers a little bit against water, but they can take the over-hand with Ferrothorn but that's when Ludicolo Appears with its Ice Beams and Hydro Cannons.
Flying: Swift Swim isn't a huge problem for flying, Thanks to Bulky Zapdos/Mandibuzz/Skarmory and the help of a Char-Y.
Grass: Normally Grass has the upper hand against water teams, but not when SS is around, as there's Pokemon who have access to both Swift Swim and Ice Beam (Ludicolo) Even though grass can just stall until the Rain is over with Mega-Venusaur, it's still a problem to them.
Bug: Bugs have a safe counter against Swift Swim teams thanks to sticky webs. But there's still a speed boost around and most Bug Pokemon aren't prepared to take a hit from a Specs/Life Orb Outrage Kingdra or a Stone Edge from Kabutops.
Electric: Electric still has the upper hand against SS Teams thanks to Galvantula having access to Sticky Webs.
Normal: Normal doesn't suffer a lot from Swift Swim. Normal has Access to Smeargle (Rarely Seen) that can learn Sticky Webs. And to Defensive walls, Porygon2 and Chansey/Blissey, as well as Slaking who can return the hit.
Ghost: Swift Swim cause serious damage on ghost teams because the lack of speed and defense, the only counter to this would be Jellicent or the Prankeye
Ice: This type would suffer lot between the hands of swift swim but doesn't thanks to Abomasnow's Hail and GigaDrain. But like i said before, killing Abomasnow and switching to Politoed again would be the only objective for the SS user.
Poison: This type can find it's way back to the winning road against Water, thanks to Tentacruel and Dry Skin Toxicroak.
Fairy: This type can also counter Swift Swim, and doesn't suffer a lot of Damage, thanks to the double screens from Klefki and Whimsicott.
Rock: ggwp SS wrecks rock ENTIRELY.
Water: May the
CONCLUSION:
Some types suffer A LOT from Swift Swim, some other can find a counter to it, and some other are neutral to it.
The Problem like i explained is DRIZZLE+SWIFT SWIM.
Why? Does it needs explaining? Just by going to Politoed you create rain.
What if Drizzle+SS was banned, there's still Rain Dance around: Correctly! Rain Dance can be countered by Taunt, any Pokemon with higher speed, plus a sudden change with the weather by switching in to T-tar (Rock/dark) or Abomasnow(Grass/Ice) (...) to stop the rain.
But if Drizzle+SS got banned, people would be forced to choose between SS+Rain Dance or Drizzle alone. They would go for Drizzle alone, why? Char-Z Y Drought Solar Beam unless they want to run a sap sipper Azumarill. Then again a new war would begin, water users would complain about Char-Y Drought+Solar Beam Combo.
NB: Sorry if i forgot to mention something or give an example to a type.
Surely if talonflame got banned because it was almost an autowin vs certain types of teams, the same logic should be applied here.
SS and Drizzle is essentially an auto win for Water against Rock and Ground regardless of what these types carry to combat it. Also I've found when making my mono teams of other types that it is severly limiting my teambuilding as i have to ensure that I have a practical check to each of the very capable mons that can abuse SS (Kingdra, Ludicolo and the dreaded Kabutops are the first 3 that spring to mind) and this opens my team up to many other threats. While I know that no one team could cover all threats, and it'd be a hell of a boring metagame if you could, I feel the presence of SS and Drizzle is unhealthy for Monotype and is holding back lots of potentially great teams due to them being insured against SS.
SS and Drizzle is essentially an auto win for Water against Rock and Ground regardless of what these types carry to combat it. Also I've found when making my mono teams of other types that it is severly limiting my teambuilding as i have to ensure that I have a practical check to each of the very capable mons that can abuse SS (Kingdra, Ludicolo and the dreaded Kabutops are the first 3 that spring to mind) and this opens my team up to many other threats. While I know that no one team could cover all threats, and it'd be a hell of a boring metagame if you could, I feel the presence of SS and Drizzle is unhealthy for Monotype and is holding back lots of potentially great teams due to them being insured against SS.
Rock is essentially auto-win against fire. Ban Rock.
Fire is essentially auto win against bug too. Ban Fire.
I find this current logic flawed and imbalanced.
Ok, Scarf victini fusion flare and scarf darmantian surely does not ohko nearly all bug type pokes. Mhmm
After rocks on bug team, using fire team = Bug is dead.
Then your reply goes to say Zarif, that rock and ground can win too if they know what they are doing. *cough cough*
#AbusethewordEasily #EasilyisOPword
After rocks on bug team, using fire team = Bug is dead.
Then your reply goes to say Zarif, that rock and ground can win too if they know what they are doing. *cough cough*
#AbusethewordEasily #EasilyisOPword
Talonflame was not banned due to its autowin vs certain types. It was banned due to the high amount of water teams, and it's ability to take out grass teams well. A talonflame ban was one of the ways used to encourage the development of more grass teams, which by theory, should also decrease the usage of water teams.
This maneuver was proven mostly successful, as we can see grass teams around in monotype more frequent than they did before.
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I find your current logic flawed and imbalanced. As Zarif said, any competent Bug or Rock user can deal with their weaknesses. The problem with Swift Swim+Drizzle is that the opposing opponent CAN'T find a way to deal with it. There's no Swift Swim counter in Rock, or anything else weak to it. Sure, Cradily benefits from the spam of Water Moves, but Ice Beam is so common in Swift Swim teams that Cradily won't last a turn with its +1 SpA boost. With this, my friends, we can agree that Swift Swim + Drizzle needs some type of nerf. #stoptherain
I agree a nerf would be fine. and I am merely presenting a current flawed and imbalanced perception on purpose for that phrase, as to demonstrate how flawed and imbalanced Zarifs statement was.
If you want to enforce this, tell me the ways a bug user would deal with a fire user?
A point is always best held with an evaluation.
Fair enough, here goes nothing.
Crustle - When the opposing team is weakened enough, he can easily set up a Shell Smash and end the game.
Heracross/Heracross-Mega - With sticky web support, Heracross or its Mega Form can easily clean a Fire Monotype late game, with proper support.
Volbeat - Trollbeat has brought me so many problems in the past. Prankster Rain Dance really helps Bug Monotypes a lot and annoys the Fire Mono with Thunder Wave, Encore, and Confuse ray.
Those are just some of the many Bug-Type Pokemon that can help Bug Monotypes deal with Fire Monotypes. I don't want to post a lot because I want to keep this thread focused on the purpose it serves, banning Drizzle Swim. #stoptherain
Crustle - When the opposing team is weakened enough, he can easily set up a Shell Smash and end the game.
Heracross/Heracross-Mega - With sticky web support, Heracross or its Mega Form can easily clean a Fire Monotype late game, with proper support.
Volbeat - Trollbeat has brought me so many problems in the past. Prankster Rain Dance really helps Bug Monotypes a lot and annoys the Fire Mono with Thunder Wave, Encore, and Confuse ray.
Those are just some of the many Bug-Type Pokemon that can help Bug Monotypes deal with Fire Monotypes. I don't want to post a lot because I want to keep this thread focused on the purpose it serves, banning Drizzle Swim. #stoptherain
You're way off. Talonflame was banned for the very reason you said it wasn't banned for. It discouraged the use of Grass and Fighting, there was no complete counter to Talonflame that Talonflame's teammates couldn't handle. Like Rock Tomb Breloom. When that counter was proposed, no sane Talonflame user would keep their Talonflame in when a Breloom is right in front of them. This is similar to Swift Swim... but Swift Swim wrecks a lot more types. Dragon teams have no counter to Kingdra in rain. They have nothing to stop their team from getting swept by a Life Orb Outrage/Dragon Pulse late game. Swift Swim makes using certain types very difficult, and there's no way to stop it.
This thread was not made for the purpose you said for. Please.
With proper support, such as sticky web on the field, and a clean 2X Speed and 2X Attack pass from Scolipede, Heracross or Pinsir can beat a Swift Swim too.
Volbeat too, Can Thunder Wave, Encore and Confuse ray successfully well against an SS team, regardless of it's speed thanks to prankster.
I suppose this isn't a gimmick then.
Please define gimmick.
As well as that, Passing 2X Attack and Speed on a Pinsir Mega can easily sweep an SS team if done successfully.
If a 'gimmick' can defeat a certain strategy, then I shall consider it a viable strategy.
Baton Pass isn't safe. Can a Pinsir live a Life Orb Surf in rain? No. Does Scolipede have a free chance to start setting up Swords Dances? No. They're not surefire ways to counter Swift Swim. Even if you pull it off, does it redeem the plethora of other types that get absolutely murdered by Swift Swim? It does not.
Then the ways you claimed to counter fire with bug were not surefire ways either.
Can Heracross-mega survive a stab fire attack in the sun? No. Can Crustle survive a stab fire attack in sun? No.
Yet, I will not claim doubt on the ways you claim to counter fire with a bug type, but it is not a hard counter either.
You had claimed that a certain hard counter would be needed by ground or rock against SS, or else it would be OP. But you had not given any hard counters for bug to counter fire either. Does this mean fire is OP? (I assume not)
Yes I have. Thank you.
I already set the scenario. With the proper support, (sticky web users), a Mega-Heracross SHOULD be able to outspeed the non-scarfed Pokemon a Fire Monotype may carry. Also, Pokemon like Armaldo would be able to deal with the Scarfed Pokemon accordingly. Bug may not ways to destroy Fire Monotypes 100%, but they can counter them at least. Swift Swim is an entirely different scenario. Dragon Monotypes have no counters to a Life Orb Kingdra late game. Fire Monotypes could at least try to Solarbeam a Balanced Water team to death, but they have no chance against Swift Swim other than trying a Weather War.
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