Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

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I would like to disagree. Klefki has prankster, giving its hazards priority. Klefki also has dual screens, giving it the one-up on Froslass. I understand where you are coming from, but I think Klefki is slightly better. C rank perhaps?

EDIT: I realized Klefki doesn't get hazards. In that case, they support their teams in different ways, making me open to C+

Froslass can threaten Defog users though since most of them are weak to Ice Beam. Destiny Bond is also incredibly good as it allows Froslass to get a 5 v 5 matchup with Spikes on the other side. Klefki and Froslass don't have much is common besides stacking Spikes but they are both good at said thing which makes me to believe that they would both fit in C+.

By the way Klefki does get Spikes so it has hazards.
 
I'm going to bring up Froslass once again.
She's currently in D rank, but now that the Deoxys formes have been banned she can effectively run a suicide lead set without the risk of being outclassed so she deserves to be moved up.
Not counting Klefki, Scolipede and Greninja (the latter two have better things to do), she's the fastest user of Spikes in OU, thanks to her base 110 speed and STAB Ice Beam she can beat many common defoggers (Mandibuzz, Zapdos and Lati@s) one-on-one, Cursed Body can mess up the ones she can't beat such as M-Scizor, Destiny Bond forces 50/50 coinflips mindgames and Taunt stops opposing hazard leads bar extremely fast ones such as Azelf.
And of course one can't forget her unique ability to spinblock her own Spikes by virtue of her typing.
For these reasons I would like to nominate her for C+ rank, on par with Klefki.
I can agree with moving it to like C. Simply from the fact that spin blocking isn't a huge thing in OU right now. Lack of prankster kind of makes it a bit less viable as a spikes setter as klefki can at least guarantee two in a general sense. Everything else I generally can agree with though. The cursed body is definitely an awesome aspect but kind of sucks that it's a bit based on luck at times so it's never a guarantee.
 
Froslass can threaten Defog users though since most of them are weak to Ice Beam. Destiny Bond is also incredibly good as it allows Froslass to get a 5 v 5 matchup with Spikes on the other side. Klefki and Froslass don't have much is common besides stacking Spikes but they are both good at said thing which makes me to believe that they would both fit in C+.

By the way Klefki does get Spikes so it has hazards.
Need to stop using Bulbapedia as a reference. Anyway, idk why you would be keeping your Mandibuzz or defogger in on Froslass, as it is probably carrying ice beam. I agree with DB however, as you can potentially take down a poke on the opposite side with that amazing speed, and cursed body is decent as well, though not as good (imo) as prankster
 
Need to stop using Bulbapedia as a reference. Anyway, idk why you would be keeping your Mandibuzz or defogger in on Froslass, as it is probably carrying ice beam. I agree with DB however, as you can potentially take down a poke on the opposite side with that amazing speed, and cursed body is decent as well, though not as good (imo) as prankster

That's the point. Mandibuzz, or one of the many ice-weak defoggers, will probably switch out giving Froslass more free turns to stack Spikes - that's what makes her effective.
Sure they can try to Defog later after Froslass has been KO'd, but that's when Bisharp and Defiant Thundurus-I come in and ruin their day. Overall, Froslass is a worthy replacement for Deoxys-D/S in the standard HO team archetype.
Her spinblocking ability is what separates her from Klefki, who outright loses to Excadrill, the main OU spinner.
 
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Froslass definitely deserves more than D cause it can actually do something in OU. While she doesn't have prankster spikes, getting rid of her spikes is actually sort of a pain cause she auto-spinblocks them, has a fast Taunt to stop any defogger (fastest is Lati@s who speed tie) and threatens stuff with Destiny Bond. Oh and STAB Ice Beam threatens certain other leads like Garchomp and Lando. Only thing is that spikes-stacking isn't so good, plus you'd need something for rocks.

Also:

- About pumping most suicide leads: This will happen, don't worry.

So there's not too much point in discussing it right now.
 
image.jpg Tornadus Therian for A- Tornadus therian is ridiculously unprepared for and underestimated in OU. With a great speed tier, awesome bulk, good offences and an amazing ability make this thing extremely hard to kill, all the while it chips at and cripples your team. Knock off + U-turn + regenerator is a huge blessing, allowing torn t to cripple switch ins, switch out, regain health and outlive its checks. With assault vest it also has great bulk, and with investment it takes less than half from a latias's Draco meteor! Torn t checks a tone of Pokemon, including but not limited to mega venu, amoong, Keldeo, Lati's, lando I and a plethora of others depending on its moveset. It also breaks down a lot of teams with knock off, so although not checking them, it cripples and wears them down to a point were torn or another team member can clean. Torn also has a good rain set spamming very powerful LO hurricanes.

A recently released rmt, crystalized is one of the best we've seen so far in xy ou. Let's we what torn does to the team.

It outright beats Keldeo and mega venu

It cripples trans switch in due to it losing its scarf

It cripples Mandy, leaving it withought passive recovery

It cripples azum, removing its assault vest and making its special bulk a lot weaker.

It switches into all of lando i's moves, cripples it with knock off and then beats it with hurricane.

Crystalized is an amazing team, but it just goes to show how ridiculously good torn t is at crippling and dismantling teams.

It has it's short comings in being slower than greninja (just) which really hurts it as well as having slightly underwhelming offences, but IMO torn t is easily at the level of the other A- Pokemon, for its great utility and that it checks a lot of top tier threats.
 
View attachment 16929 Tornadus Therian for A- Tornadus therian is ridiculously unprepared for and underestimated in OU. With a great speed tier, awesome bulk, good offences and an amazing ability make this thing extremely hard to kill, all the while it chips at and cripples your team. Knock off + U-turn + regenerator is a huge blessing, allowing torn t to cripple switch ins, switch out, regain health and outlive its checks. With assault vest it also has great bulk, and with investment it takes less than half from a latias's Draco meteor! Torn t checks a tone of Pokemon, including but not limited to mega venu, amoong, Keldeo, Lati's, lando I and a plethora of others depending on its moveset. It also breaks down a lot of teams with knock off, so although not checking them, it cripples and wears them down to a point were torn or another team member can clean. Torn also has a good rain set spamming very powerful LO hurricanes.

A recently released rmt, crystalized is one of the best we've seen so far in xy ou. Let's we what torn does to the team.

It outright beats Keldeo and mega venu

It cripples trans switch in due to it losing its scarf

It cripples Mandy, leaving it withought passive recovery

It cripples azum, removing its assault vest and making its special bulk a lot weaker.

It switches into all of lando i's moves, cripples it with knock off and then beats it with hurricane.

Crystalized is an amazing team, but it just goes to show how ridiculously good torn t is at crippling and dismantling teams.

It has it's short comings in being slower than greninja (just) which really hurts it as well as having slightly underwhelming offences, but IMO torn t is easily at the level of the other A- Pokemon, for its great utility and that it checks a lot of top tier threats.
I could see a possible rise in ranking when (or if) Aegislash gets banned, but for now, I just don't see him rising any higher than B+.
 
I could see a possible rise in ranking when (or if) Aegislash gets banned, but for now, I just don't see him rising any higher than B+.

Aegi doesn't affect it, with assault vest it takes like 35% from shadow ball, and the combo of heat wave and knock off kills Aegi, torn can then switch out and regain health, I'll say it again, torn is no less deserving of A- than any of the current A- pokes.
 
Aegi doesn't affect it, with assault vest it takes like 35% from shadow ball, and the combo of heat wave and knock off kills Aegi, torn can then switch out and regain health, I'll say it again, torn is no less deserving of A- than any of the current A- pokes.
It takes Life Orb to 2HKO with Heat Wave (Knock Off sadly doesn't have the same result), and only Assault Vest sets can avoid the 2HKO from Shadow Ball, so you can't do both. Besides, King's Shield is going to be used before Tornadus-T can land a hit on Aegislash, so Knock Off will be at half power if it actually connects. Tornadus-T also has some nasty common checks that can live a Life Orb attack, such as Mega Mawile, Thundurus, both Mega Charizards, Azumarill, Calm Mind Clefable, Talonflame, and more. I may have said Tornadus-T had a chance at becoming A- if Aegislash gets banned, but after listing off these checks, I'm not so sure anymore...
 
It takes Life Orb to 2HKO with Heat Wave (Knock Off sadly doesn't have the same result), and only Assault Vest sets can avoid the 2HKO from Shadow Ball, so you can't do both. Besides, King's Shield is going to be used before Tornadus-T can land a hit on Aegislash, so Knock Off will be at half power if it actually connects. Tornadus-T also has some nasty common checks that can live a Life Orb attack, such as Mega Mawile, Thundurus, both Mega Charizards, Azumarill, Calm Mind Clefable, Talonflame, and more. I may have said Tornadus-T had a chance at becoming A- if Aegislash gets banned, but after listing off these checks, I'm not so sure anymore...

Sorry but those Pokemon you mentioned don't'it want to switch in. Azumarill might get its assault vest knocked off, oppening up a possible 2ohko with hurricane. Zard can't switch in at all, taking a huge amount from hurricane, clefable hates losing passive recovery as well, thundy hates losing its item because then it's attacks become weaker, and is this a joke!? Talonflame!? Talon can never switch into torns moves, and torn survives a brave bird, great check.. Torn t's capabilities to disable and break down teams is unrivalled, and it deserves no lower than A-.
 
Sorry but those Pokemon you mentioned don't'it want to switch in. Azumarill might get its assault vest knocked off, oppening up a possible 2ohko with hurricane. Zard can't switch in at all, taking a huge amount from hurricane, clefable hates losing passive recovery as well, thundy hates losing its item because then it's attacks become weaker, and is this a joke!? Talonflame!? Talon can never switch into torns moves, and torn survives a brave bird, great check.. Torn t's capabilities to disable and break down teams is unrivalled, and it deserves no lower than A-.
I said they were checks, not counters.
 
The fact you haven't named a counter is really a testimony to how hard it is to beat torn.
Well there's Rotom-W, Zapdos, Sylveon, Specially Defensive Mandibuzz and Clefable, Raikou, and Rhyperior. If we dig near the bottom of the barrel, we can find Togekiss and Cresselia. I'm on the fence about whether or not Chansey and Porygon2 count as counters, since they can live a Knock Off + Superpower combo even with Eviolite knocked off, but that's kind of a one-time deal, so I'll leave that up to you. I actually forget to mention counters earlier, so thanks for reminding me.
 
Torn-T outlasts its counters, usually. So long as SR is kept off the field, it just regens its health back while dealing chip damage with U-Turn as well as removing items. Yeah it has counters, but they don't prevent it from doing its job, which is a). Be really annoying, and b). Never die.

idc where it's ranked but just listing counters isn't a good way to determine where it should be ranked.
 
I seriously hate tornadus-T and refuse to ever use it, and here's why:
STAB

I mean seriously this guy needs some better STAB move and i'd be all over this thing. But choosing between the pissweak air slash or the incredibly inconsistent hurricane? Both stink and your coverage moves (mainly focus blast, if we assume the standard set is STAB/focus blast/u-turn/taunt or knock off) aren't that strong or accurate either. I just HATE choosing between air slash and hurricane because both suck for obvious reasons, and again, this is your STAB move! The main move that you will be using to even do damage! I really don't like relying on 70% odds to break subs or something, and air slash is so weak it probably won't even break them.

This is one of torn-t's biggest problems, and if it just got aeroblast or something I'd nominate it for A in a heartbeat.
 
Foretress for C or C-. While the deoxys reigned supreme, no hazard setters were ever really all that viable. Sure some had their niches, but they were all small for the most part. However, with the recent banning of those two super setters, other hazard setters are more viable. I have already seen a few people advocating for froslass, but I want to bring up another hazard setting mmomentum lead.

Forretress is a really physically bulky spinner that has access to every hazard bar sticky web. This coupled with its ability, sturdy make for a solid lead. However, what really makes forretress great is its ability to run moves like volt switch and explosion. Offensive teams love the slow volt switch and it can maintain utility with rapid spin throughout the match.
 
I've been using AV Tornadus-T a lot recently (writing an RMT w/ it heh) and I can vouch my support for moving it up. I will add more input when I have access to a computer, but, here's my quick thoughts: hard to wear down, as Stealth Rock is easily taken care of courtesy of Regenerator, and it has pretty good bulk actually. Hurricane may not be the best STAB move, but it hits hard when it does and it doesn't miss as often as people are making it out to be really. Knock Off is really amazing utility and is great for Chansey, while Focus Blast nails Tyranitar and the likes. U-turn is probably my favorite move on it simply for the fact it grabs momentum and activates Regenerator. Overall, it's Speed and Regenerator and insane momentum keeping makes it an A- Pokemon in my eyes.
 
Will always vouch for Torn-T, as I did like 6 months ago. AV is ridiculous and will quickly make a well made stall team into a testrun team that forgot to put items on all its pokemon.

Also, super power > focus blast pls. Run mixed I'm not kidding, even at the expense of -Def stats. AV is definition of utility, momentum, wear down, and downright walling. It can live thundy's tbolt, knock off the life orb, and then switch out.

Life orb set plays differently, sort of like greninja.

The only real negative about torn-t is that greninja is one frustrating base stat faster. AV lives all hits though, and knocks off the item
 
B+ is already pushing it for Torn-T, it really shouldn't go higher. It seems people are pushing for the AV set to bring it up, but that set is rather weak and reliant on low accuracy moves. I have lots of experience with it, and it's just not that hard to wall. I'm gonna ignore Heat Wave because it's so much worse than Focus Blast, and list some stuff. Honestly stall teams eat it for breakfast. Worst case scenario Chansey has to lose its Eviolite, but there are still things like SDef Char X, SDef Gliscor, Clefable, and Hippowdon that are on basically every stall team, that wall it easily. It also struggles to break through things like Mega Mawile, Charizard Y, Mandibuzz, Thundurus, Aegislash, Garchomp, Mega Scizor with SpD, Rotom-W, Zapdos, Raikou, Mega Manectric, Suicune, Mew... Basically every team has a Pokemon that can wall it, and there are a lot of checks that I haven't even mentioned. And Hurricane's accuracy bites so hard, making it a less-than-reliable check to things like Keldeo, because you have to assume a 70% acc move hits which can win/lose games because Torn-T's most reliable moves are Knock Off and U-turn, which aren't exactly powerful but used for utility. I really like AV Torn-T but it just has so many limitations. LO attacker set for rain is a monster to deal with because it has so much more power plus the ability to run Taunt, but I don't think that's enough to push it over to A-. How can you compare it to the likes of Mamoswine or Skarmory? It's nowhere near their level in terms of presence and effectiveness in the tier.
 
Id like to suggest Entei for a promotion to either B or even B+. I ve been using the CB set alot lately and come to think that its far more effektive than its B- ranking indicates.
It can act as a wallbreaker and revengekiller/lategamecleaner in one mon with its powerful stab and Extremespeed while also providing invaluable utility by spreading burns among the opponents team. With SR up, CB Sacred Fire packs enough power to break most physical walls in the meta, especially if the burn triggers. Because of the burn chance its very unpleasant to switch into it in general. As even things that resist it and dont take too much damage because of that, have a good chance of getting burned and therefor crippled. Virtually the only thing that can switch into Sacred Fire without worries is Heatran and he is nailed by Stone Edge/Bulldoze. On the other hand its Extreme Speed is powerful enough to revengekill common offensive threats after some prior damage, due to its high priority it also circumvates other priority users like Thundurs T-wave and Talonflames Bravebird. Its also decently bulky and gets some useful resists from its typing like steel, fire, bug and fairy so it can take a hit or two if needed.

Virtually its only problem is its SR weakness which hinders its ability to come in multiple times during a match so hazard support is required to use it to its full extent. I guess one could say that its predictable but given that Sacred Fire hits almost everything for massive damage and cripples everything else, it doesnt help the opponent at all to know whats coming.
Thats also the reason why it doesnt mind beeing choice locked all that much, even more than Keldeo with Scald its fine with just spamming its stabmove, the only occasion where at least some prediction is required is when Heatran is on the opposing team and even then your usually fine of with either double switching or using SE/Bulldoze. SE deserves special mention here over Bulldoze because it hits harder in generall and isnt as exploitable as Bulldoze where the Entei user might run into a trap when some levitator/flying type comes in instead of Heatran.

Comparing it to other B+ threats imo the best comparison is Mega Medicham. They are both incredibly hard to switch into and have a similar speed tier. Medicham can switch moves but as already mentioned, Entei is fine by just clicking Sacred Fire 90% of the time and Extreme Speed allows Entei to compensate his mediocre speed tier while Medicham is left with Bulletpunch/Fakeout for priority. In terms of bulk its a trade SR weakness for more bulk and more usefull resists. Imo they are on a similar theat level and the rankings should reflect that.


I ve made this post about Entei a few pages back but didnt get any feedback on it so i bring it up again. I realy think it deserves more than just B- and would like to hear other peoples opinions about it.
 
I ve made this post about Entei a few pages back but didnt get any feedback on it so i bring it up again. I realy think it deserves more than just B- and would like to hear other peoples opinions about it.

I agree with this, the Choice Band set is so scary to face because many would be checks and counters such as Azumarill, Tyranitar, Landorus-T, Mandibuzz, Mega Venusaur, etc. hate being burned. Entei also has nice utility in Extreme Speed which really hurts with a band and also has access to Bulldoze to punish Heatran, who is immune to Sacred Fire. Despite being forced to run an Adamant nature, neutral base 100 speed isnt that slow and Entei has solid defenses as well. All of this makes me believe that Entei deserves B rank, B+ might be pushing it.
 
I will also support the notion Entei for B Rank. Although Hellhound isn't the easiest thing to send into play, he's a good mon once you get rid of heatran, suicune, faster threats (or put them into Banded ExtremeSpeed Range), and the other OU mons that give him trouble. Problem with Entei is that he's a choice user (and a SR weak one) with a large list of checks on both the offensive and defensive sides of the meta. He can't spam Sacred Fire as much as he wants because he's either outsped by something or the opponent has a defensive switch in that costs you hella momentum by being locked in. Nonetheless, Entei is a solid mon that gets work done if you get rid of what you need to get rid of. I think he really shines endgame though with that Banded ExtremeSpeed.
 
Ok, I'll break the silence. After playing some more games on the ladder recently, here are a couple of things in the current list that I'd like to see changed:

1. Mega Heracross. This thing (and many others have pointed out the same a number of times) needs to move up to B+ because it's so much better than Mega Medicham it isn't funny. Mega Medicham has pitiful bulk, a worse typing, is walled and threatened by bulky psychics/ghosts which are easy to fit onto stall (Mew, Slowbro, Sableye, etc) and has to rely on an unreliable glass cannon STAB to deliver its powerful neutral hits, which can kill you without the opponent even having to do anything. The fact that Mega Medicham is faster and therefore supposedly better against offense is a myth as well in my experience, as base 100 is really slow anyway by offense standards and when you look at everything that is faster than it (which is a lot of things) Megacham simply doesn't have the bulk to live a hit from many of them, and there aren't many relevant mons between the speed tier of Heracross and base 100's that are on offense to begin with.

Megacross on the other hand, has practically 0 safe switch-ins at all and has impressive bulk to live a hit or two from a lot of things, pretty much guaranteeing you'll get at least 1 KO with it in any game, so it will always at least pull it's own weight and often a lot more, especially against defensive teams. At the moment, it's one of the most puzzling mons for stall to deal with, much harder than the likes of even Mega Mawile and Landorus-I. For Mawile, you can just slap a bulky fire on your team and call it a day, whereas:

afmx2.jpg


2. Mega Charizard-Y. I posted about this recently in the stall thread, but I believe Mega Charizard-Y is being potentially undersold in its current A rank, much like Venusaur was when it was dropped to being a mere A. As I've come to realize lately, Char-Y is quite amazing when you drop the idea that you (for whatever reason) need to run max speed Timid on it, which doesn't really achieve all that much when you think about it. Base 100 is overcrowded and there's little point trying to compete for the coin flip at the expense of a huge sacrifice in bulk. Similarly, Char-Y still hits incredibly hard even with no SpA investment at all, and he becomes an excellent counter to a number of premier threats such as Mawile, Landorus-I and Bisharp (and even himself too, which is important to take the strain off Chansey when going up against a Char-Y team that has a Pursuit Bisharp) when given investment in bulk. In this regard, I've found him in many match-ups to be a better asset for stall teams than Zard-X, because he can actually counter more relevant things than his dragon brother can.

charizard-megay.gif

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Solar Beam / Focus Blast
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

Offensively, even without investment, he still guarantees the 2HKO on Heatran with Focus Blast after Stealth Rock, still 3HKO's Latios with Fire Blast / Flamethrower, and still OHKO's Landorus with Fire Blast, so surprisingly, even though the damage is obviously lower with each hit, in many cases it doesn't actually change how many hits it takes to KO certain threats.

0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 184-218 (47.6 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 216-256 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 101-119 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 118-140 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Defensively, he does all sorts of nice things. He doesn't care about standard Lando-I's, he doesn't have a water weakness, he takes around 40% from a Rotom-W Volt Switch and can blast it hard with a Solarbeam, counters Mawile and resists everything it can throw at him, and the list goes on.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 135-160 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus in Sun: 321-378 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


And as always, a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-142754288

I don't know whether people will agree if these are grounds for a raise, so I'll leave that for you to decide whether or not you think Zard-Y deserves one, but I personally think he deserves to reside alongside his fellow gen 1 starter evolution in A+, because he's still one hell of a powerful mon as he has been since his inception, and unlike other 1-dimensional pokemon like Pinsir which he's currently associated with, he can take on some new-found roles which can be valuable to a lot of teams.
 
Ok, I'll break the silence. After playing some more games on the ladder recently, here are a couple of things in the current list that I'd like to see changed:

1. Mega Heracross. This thing (and many others have pointed out the same a number of times) needs to move up to B+ because it's so much better than Mega Medicham it isn't funny. Mega Medicham has pitiful bulk, a worse typing, is walled and threatened by bulky psychics/ghosts which are easy to fit onto stall (Mew, Slowbro, Sableye, etc) and has to rely on an unreliable glass cannon STAB to deliver its powerful neutral hits, which can kill you without the opponent even having to do anything. The fact that Mega Medicham is faster and therefore supposedly better against offense is a myth as well in my experience, as base 100 is really slow anyway by offense standards and when you look at everything that is faster than it (which is a lot of things) Megacham simply doesn't have the bulk to live a hit from many of them, and there aren't many relevant mons between the speed tier of Heracross and base 100's that are on offense to begin with.

Megacross on the other hand, has practically 0 safe switch-ins at all and has impressive bulk to live a hit or two from a lot of things, pretty much guaranteeing you'll get at least 1 KO with it in any game, so it will always at least pull it's own weight and often a lot more, especially against defensive teams. At the moment, it's one of the most puzzling mons for stall to deal with, much harder than the likes of even Mega Mawile and Landorus-I. For Mawile, you can just slap a bulky fire on your team and call it a day, whereas:

afmx2.jpg


2. Mega Charizard-Y. I posted about this recently in the stall thread, but I believe Mega Charizard-Y is being potentially undersold in its current A rank, much like Venusaur was when it was dropped to being a mere A. As I've come to realize lately, Char-Y is quite amazing when you drop the idea that you (for whatever reason) need to run max speed Timid on it, which doesn't really achieve all that much when you think about it. Base 100 is overcrowded and there's little point trying to compete for the coin flip at the expense of a huge sacrifice in bulk. Similarly, Char-Y still hits incredibly hard even with no SpA investment at all, and he becomes an excellent counter to a number of premier threats such as Mawile, Landorus-I and Bisharp (and even himself too, which is important to take the strain off Chansey when going up against a Char-Y team that has a Pursuit Bisharp) when given investment in bulk. In this regard, I've found him in many match-ups to be a better asset for stall teams than Zard-X, because he can actually counter more relevant things than his dragon brother can.

charizard-megay.gif

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 244 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Solar Beam / Focus Blast
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost

Offensively, even without investment, he still guarantees the 2HKO on Heatran with Focus Blast after Stealth Rock, still 3HKO's Latios with Fire Blast / Flamethrower, and still OHKO's Landorus with Fire Blast, so surprisingly, even though the damage is obviously lower with each hit, in many cases it doesn't actually change how many hits it takes to KO certain threats.

0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 184-218 (47.6 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 216-256 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 101-119 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios in Sun: 118-140 (39.2 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Defensively, he does all sorts of nice things. He doesn't care about standard Lando-I's, he doesn't have a water weakness, he takes around 40% from a Rotom-W Volt Switch and can blast it hard with a Solarbeam, counters Mawile and resists everything it can throw at him, and the list goes on.

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 135-160 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus in Sun: 321-378 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


And as always, a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-142754288

I don't know whether people will agree if these are grounds for a raise, so I'll leave that for you to decide whether or not you think Zard-Y deserves one, but I personally think he deserves to reside alongside his fellow gen 1 starter evolution in A+, because he's still one hell of a powerful mon as he has been since his inception, and unlike other 1-dimensional pokemon like Pinsir which he's currently associated with, he can take on some new-found roles which can be valuable to a lot of teams.

Completely agreed with you on Heracross, It's not deadweight against offense like some believe, and can simply annihilate most defensive cores. I'm not to sure it's better than landorus at wallbreaking but they are most certainly on the same level.

Charizard-Y also warrants more discussion. It may be on the "conclusion reached", but this is the first time I've heard anyone bring up it's defensive capability, and the "conclusion reached" list does say, "Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed." I think Zard-Y should be discussed again, because it's defensive sets were never really brought up.
 
Completely agreed with you on Heracross, It's not deadweight against offense like some believe, and can simply annihilate most defensive cores. I'm not to sure it's better than landorus at wallbreaking but they are most certainly on the same level.

Charizard-Y also warrants more discussion. It may be on the "conclusion reached", but this is the first time I've heard anyone bring up it's defensive capability, and the "conclusion reached" list does say, "Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed." I think Zard-Y should be discussed again, because it's defensive sets were never really brought up.
I actually brought up the WoW set back a couple pages when it was on the verge of dropping from A+ to A but I got 70% ignored. Not complaining, I know we all don't have time to read through an entire argument the first time around, but js someone already brought it up.
 
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