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Weezing is a niche Pokemon similar to Arcanine, in that it flawlessly beats Mega Mawile. However, it has a far better defensive typing that also lets it beat every Physical attacker not named Excadrill, Charizard-X, Victini, or Medicham, as well as some special attackers, like Clefable, Sylveon, and and Mega Venusaur. I think it deserves D or C-, and alexwolf said he'd agree to at least D. Tagging Meru again
Arcanine is actually a lot better at countering Mawile than Weezing because it resists both STABs as opposed to just one and has intimidate on top of that which allows it to beat every set Mawile has, and Weezing can't counter Mawile if it carries Iron Head (which it often does to beat Mega Venusaur and be able to OHKO Clefable without having to take a Fire Blast to the noggin).
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 157-186 (47 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Weezing also doesn't have reliable recovery unfortunately, but I do agree it has some good (and annoying) things going for it like Clear Smog, Will-o-Wisp, Pain Split, Toxic Spikes and some decent coverage moves, which /could/ be deemed worthy of a rank.
If you're mainly looking for a flawless birdspam counter, Mega Aerodactyl does a lot better, resists ALL of bird spam stabs, not weak to any coverage move, outspeeds and ohkos them all while not giving a rat's ass about their prioirity. Ice Fang Aero even does a better job countering Landorus-I too, since Lando can't set up Calm Mind all over it.
And Aero doesn't necessarily have to be worn down more than Zapdos, defensive sets with Roost have some surprisingly nice niches (counters bird spam like no other, decent counter to Lando-I and Zard-Y that's not weak to Pursuit). 80/85/95 bulk is slightly worse physically, and about the same special, than Zapdos, but Aerodactyl has way better speed that adds a lot to its defensive potential by saving it from taking a hit.
Zapdos' most notable niche over Mega Aerodactyl is that it fits on to balance/stall teams with other megas like Venusaur and Charizard, and imo that's not worth being two subranks up.
Honestly I don't like running other of them as a defogger, since I find a lot of battles that go like this:
Opponent sets up rocks.
Defogger (Zap or Aero) comes in, loses 25% health, as well as damage from switching in.
Defogger forced to roost if it wants to come in again, or Defog and not be able to counter what it's supposed to counter later on due to only being at like 50% health. Because the opponent will switch to a check and force it out next turn either way.
If the opponent sets up rocks again, they'll have to find a free switch on something they outspeed and can take a hit to roost, and that's difficult.
You would really have to be desperate to double up Defogger+Bird Spam check into one role while not being able to sub out any other team member to help out.
Aero takes up the Mega Slot is weak to many common attacking types including common priority and has very little use outside its few niches especially as a defensive Defoger.
Zapdos on the other hand is a very well rounded pokemon overall. Good typing and bulk, strong spa and decent offensive coverage. With Tbolt and Toxic there are very few things that can switch in safely and until you know the full set the number of safe switchins is even smaller. For example, bulky Mega Scizor could come in against the toxic set but until he knows you have toxic he cant come in for fear of Heatwave.
Beeing SR weak sucks but Mandibuzz has even bigger trouble with rocks as he gets 2hkoed by pretty much everything he is supposed to check after rocks. Zapdos can do most of his jobs even with rocks up. And he doesnt give free switchins to common threats like Keldeo and Greninja.
Arcanine is actually a lot better at countering Mawile than Weezing because it resists both STABs as opposed to just one and has intimidate on top of that which allows it to beat every set Mawile has, and Weezing can't counter Mawile if it carries Iron Head (which it often does to beat Mega Venusaur and be able to OHKO Clefable without having to take a Fire Blast to the noggin).
252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 157-186 (47 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
Weezing also doesn't have reliable recovery unfortunately, but I do agree it has some good (and annoying) things going for it like Clear Smog, Will-o-Wisp, Pain Split, Toxic Spikes and some decent coverage moves, which could be deemed worthy of a rank.
Well, that is fair. However, Substitute sets only run Iron Head if they don't run Play Rough, and SD sets only run Iron Head if they give up Fire Fang, both of which have intense consequences. I guess I'll change it to Weezing counters all Mawile sets lacking Iron Head. It lacks reliable recovery, but has a better typing, and therefore the ability to handle much more Pokemon than Arcanine can. It specializes in Mawile (lacking Iron Head), but can handle basically every physical attacker that isn't a Fire-type, a Psychic-type, Haxorus, or Excadrill.
Well, that is fair. However, Substitute sets only run Iron Head if they don't run Play Rough, and SD sets only run Iron Head if they give up Fire Fang, both of which have intense consequences. I guess I'll change it to Weezing counters all Mawile sets lacking Iron Head. It lacks reliable recovery, but has a better typing, and therefore the ability to handle much more Pokemon than Arcanine can. It specializes in Mawile (lacking Iron Head), but can handle basically every physical attacker that isn't a Fire-type, a Psychic-type, Haxorus, or Excadrill.
It seems like sub sd garchomp/terrakion (maybe some other things too) can just set up on it and sweep your team. Other than that, Weezing seems like it could be good.
It seems like sub sd garchomp/terrakion (maybe some other things too) can just set up on it and sweep your team. Other than that, Weezing seems like it could be good.
That's true. I wasn't considering Substitute pokemon resistant to both Poison and Fire, although SubSD Terrakion doesn't sound good. It loses out on beating Slash, which is really bad and momentum killing atm. Maybe D is best.
The more I use Latias the more I see it as an A+ Pokemon. Its high Speed and power is somewhat outclassed by Latios, in this regard, but its higher Special Defense allows it to take some moves a lot better. For instance:
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 304-359 (100.6 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 260-307 (86 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 260-307 (86 - 101.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is just one example, but a bit bulkier sets can live the Ice Beam (if needed) and either OHKO it with Draco Meteor, Defog as a last ditch, or use a final Healing Wish. Speaking of Healing Wish, it's a phenomenal move for Latias, and Latios does not have it. Latias can use it as a last ditch move to bring in a sweeper with ease, which can change the game very quickly. Latias should be above Latios in my opinion, as it is bulkier, but not as strong. Healing Wish is also what makes it so amazing really, I'd like to hear counter-arguments to this change.
Mandibuzz is way too high in my opinion. Aegi is broke but this thing has obvious flaws, same shared with the previously mentioned Zapdos. Even then it loses to SubToxic so good job. It can't hit back outside of Foul Play (don't bring up Knock Off, it really shouldn't be running both that and Foul Play) and has other major flaws. IMO, drop this thing back to B+
Latias while I am not saying it should drop is something I want to hear other peoples opinions on.
Arcanine why is this thing not D? Just drop it back down to D rank (ik it's blacklisted, feel free to ignore this whatever)
Mandi imo should not go below Skarmory. It's just better or at least on par with Skarmory, trading the resistances for (quite a lot of, actually) special bulk as well as the ability to hit physical attackers for lots of damage. It has few resistances and is rock weak, but if rocks aren't on the field the number of stuff it can switch in to and win is pretty impressive.
Latias should be A, along with Latios. It's slightly weaker, but it's also bulkier and Healing Wish is such an amazing move. Beyond that they're pretty much the same thing.
Arcanine, unlike everything in D, actually has a defined niche that it can consistently do, which is countering the loving hell out of all Mega Mawile sets even if Stealth Rock is up. It also has Extremespeed and can spread burns with Wisp. Let's be real; C- is for stuff that has a niche but most people would never seriously use, and I think Arcanine is good enough for it.
Blissey should be removed from the list now that its UU. Its completely outclassed by chansey due to its far greater bulk with eviolite and doesn't really have any notable niche over it that makes it worth using.
Blissey should be removed from the list now that its UU. Its completely outclassed by chansey due to its far greater bulk with eviolite and doesn't really have any notable niche over it that makes it worth using.
Just cause a mon is UU does not mean it should be removed from the list. Although I don't know if the stance on Blissey v Chansey has changed if at all since the last time it was brought up, id be intrigued to here it if it ment Blissey dropped further down the rankings.
EDIT: I think Blissey might still able to stay due it sharing the same rank as Salamence. They both cover a niche and are generally outclassed by the higher up mons, but still have a niche to abuse (Blissey being a capable special wall that can still take on lando after losing an item with Sala still being a usable cleaner). Just not entirely removed I think if we allow Sala to stay.
I actually don't think Blissey should be dropped off the list. I almost always prefer Chansey to Blissey, but there have been situations I've run into where being popped by Knock Off is such a serious detriment, specifically in the case of Knock Off Lando, where Chansey has me 6-0'd by it and Blissey doesn't. This is mostly the case in balanced-ish teams similar to the one Laurel used in this replay http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-15021 (this is an OU battle). This team isn't actually 6-0'd by Knock Off Lando but having Blissey for some real insurance is invaluable. Blissey also shrugs off weaker attacks better, cares less about burns/Toxics on the switch-in, and has the option to run Flamethrower/Ice Beam if you want it to hit specific threats. I'm not saying it isn't worse than Chansey, but under the C Rank definition of "small niche with a little bit of merit in the meta" I think Blissey is fine.
Thanks for your totally informed and solidly backed up one-liner! If you're too stupid to see actual points and just act passively with your preconceived biases about what Pokemon are good and what aren't, then you might as well not post. For some reason you're fine with Dugtrio which is definitely worse than Blissey, so I don't see why you can be so adamant about other, more niche Pokemon. Almost every post you make in here regarding the lower rankings is a passive / aggressive remark that is almost totally ignorant of the points brought up by the poster. You see no reason not to add Donphan back because Blissey won't drop off the ranking, give me a break and get your head out of your ass.
Thanks for your totally informed and solidly backed up one-liner! If you're too stupid to see actual points and just act passively with your preconceived biases about what Pokemon are good and what aren't, then you might as well not post. For some reason you're fine with Dugtrio which is definitely worse than Blissey, so I don't see why you can be so adamant about other, more niche Pokemon. Almost every post you make in here regarding the lower rankings is a passive / aggressive remark that is almost totally ignorant of the points brought up by the poster. You see no reason not to add Donphan back because Blissey won't drop off the ranking, give me a break and get your head out of your ass.
TFL is a boss, don't be hatin'. Dugtrio has an actual niche as the fastest and most powerful trapper in the game and isn't strictly outclassed by anything. Yeah, Blissey can take on Landorus, or you could just use Chansey which is better in every way and use one of your other 5 teamslots to take on Landorus. TFL knows shit when he smells it.
Because rather than loving Donphan for what it is, some people continue to try to argue that Donphan is viable in OU and the rest of us get pissed off. I have a lot of love for Donphan, and if you love it you should use it in UU where it won't get murdered so often.
The reason why people hate on Donphan is because he's considered outclassed by every other physically based Ground-type available in OU, namely Mamoswine, Landorus-T, Garchomp, Excadrill, Hippowdon, Quagsire, and Gliscor. Offensively, Mamoswine, Excadrill, and Garchomp have more power, as well as the former having Endeavor + STAB Ice Shard, the middle being a fellow Rapid Spinner but has Mold Breaker to get past Rotom-W and Gengar, and the latter having good Speed and overall great defenses. Defensively, Quagsire, Gliscor, and Hippowdon have actual recovery, with the former having Unaware and Scald to avoid becoming setup bait, the middle having status immunity after Toxic Orb activates its Poison Heal, and the latter having Roar to shuffle teams and has more physical bulk. Landorus-T has variety, as he can be offensive or defensive to fit his team's needs, since he has Intimidate and solid defenses on the defensive side, while offensively, he has a mammoth 145 base Attack, usable 91 base Speed, and U-turn to provide offensive momentum and create advantageous scenarios. Donphan has its uses, but if you're using Donphan, you really have to ask yourself why you're using him over your other options.
Well, since this got brought up, I kinda want to nominate Donphan for D Rank again. I mean, I probably wouldn't do this because the niche it occupies is so small, but when stuff like Mantine is getting a rank then all bets are off. I ran a really weird set a little while back that looked something like this:
Donphan @ Assault Vest
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
-Earthquake
-Knock Off
-Rapid Spin
-Ice Shard
Kind of a bad set in the grand scheme of things, but I could say the same about a lot of other Pokemon on this list, lol. This first and most important thing that it can do is spin. Unlike last generation, Donphan actually does spin against common spinblockers. Donphan underspeeds Aegislash so that it can OHKO it with Earthquake while taking fairly minimal damage in return. Gengar gets smashed by Knock Off, and even if it survives, Ice Shard will finish it off shortly after. Speaking of which, Ice Shard is really weak sauce, but you can pick off a few weakened offensive Pokemon such as Garchomp, Landorus, Dragonite, Latios, and Thundurus at anywhere from ~30-50% health, depending on the Pokemon. It's also cool to finish off faster Pokemon that just barely survive one of the other attacks, like the aformentioned Gengar. Specially defensive Assault Vest looks weird, but here's a handful of calculations to show some of the hits it's capable of tanking:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 105-124 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 125-148 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 109-130 (28.4 - 33.9%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 149-177 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 87-103 (22.7 - 26.8%) -- 37.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Donphan: 157-186 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Donphan: 339-400 (88.5 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 181-214 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 151-178 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As you can see, there are a lot of relevant threats that Donphan can take hits from before hitting back. It can tank Tank Aegislash's Shadow Ball with ease and OHKO with Earthquake in return. It can even tank Shadow Balls from fast all out attacking sets pretty comfortably. It can switch into even Life Orb Thundurus with relative ease and KO with Knock Off + 2 Ice Shards. Not to mention that Thundurus will lose its Life Orb and hit Donphan even softer after that. Donphan can do anywhere from 92.5-110% to Landorus with 2 Ice Shards, which is a 62.5% chance to KO, while Landorus fails to 2HKO with Earth Power. Gengar isn't too much of a problem if it doesn't have Will-O-Wisp, while Donphan's Knock Off + Ice Shard KOs. Excadrill can't 2HKO without a Life Orb or Swords Dance boost, and Donphan's Earthquake easily OHKOs in return (unless it has an Air Balloon). If you're desperate, Donphan can survive bulky Charizard X's +1 Flare Blitz most of the time from full health before KOing with Earthquake + Flare Blitz's recoil damage. Donphan can switch directly into even Latios's Draco Meteor and survive before KOing with Knock Off + Ice Shard. Even Mega Gardevoir fails to 2HKO with Hyper Voice, while Earthquake easily 2HKOs back. While SpD Hippowdon can boast many of the same things, Donphan has a couple of advantages. Perhaps the most important one is the ability to spin, which is important for teams that want to have hazards off their side of the field without having to worry about resetting their own. Donphan's extra power overall and access to priority Ice Shard for picking off weakened offensive Pokemon and assisting KOs against some of them are also important.
Now, here's the thing: Donphan still sucks. Despite the set I just posted being able to take hits from several notable offensive Pokemon, it still can only switch in once or twice most of the time before it becomes too weak to switch directly in again and survive. Donphan's lack of any form of recovery makes it less reliable as a tank. Its Ice Shard is useful from time to time, but the fact that you can't even guarantee a 2HKO against an uninvested Landorus just goes to show that it's pretty darn weak. While actually being able to spin is handy, you have to ask if it's really that big of a deal when there are several solid Defoggers in OU and solid Stealth Rock users as well that won't mind setting the hazard a few additional times. Most of the time, I'd much rather run a specially defensive Hippowdon to take on some of the same things that the above Donphan set handles while offering Stealth Rock support and reliable recovery, as well as a separate defensive Pokemon to Defog and handle a few other threats of its own. However, Donphan still combines a few unique things into one, which is apparently good enough for a low rank. It has a tiny niche in being a bulky Ground-type that can also spin and occasionally pick things off with Ice Shard, but it only does that so well and sucks outside of that. All in all, it seems to fit the D Rank description pretty well. Again, I probably wouldn't even be posting this, but seeing as how we put Mantine in C- Rank (among other things), I don't think putting Donphan back in D Rank is a stretch at all.
Thanks for posting, Agent Gibbs, because this is the kind of thing I don't like to see and would like to prevent. Nothing against you, I just made the same argument and know exactly where you're coming from.
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Do any of you know how many Pokemon are on our viability list? 137. Do you honestly think that much is viable?
Do you think it's worth it to keep Pokemon that are rarely useful and more often than not a waste of a team slot listed?
I do not. And I think we need to set some sort of (higher) standard.
Frankly, I can't just go in-depth with my posts like some others can, so if anyone would be helpful enough to do that with this topic I'd be grateful.
(I took the liberty to delete several of my older posts, because they did nothing, but serve to derail the thread.)
It's worth keeping Pokemon with a viable niche that has some sort of merit in the metagame. Not a "middle child" niche but a viable one. Tournament appearances are good too. For example, Blissey and Mantine have had several appearances in WCOP, and obviously if they were more than often a waster of a team slot, they would not be brought to these tournaments.
Well, since this got brought up, I kinda want to nominate Donphan for D Rank again. I mean, I probably wouldn't do this because the niche it occupies is so small, but when stuff like Mantine is getting a rank then all bets are off. I ran a really weird set a little while back that looked something like this:
Donphan @ Assault Vest
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature
-Earthquake
-Knock Off
-Rapid Spin
-Ice Shard
Kind of a bad set in the grand scheme of things, but I could say the same about a lot of other Pokemon on this list, lol. This first and most important thing that it can do is spin. Unlike last generation, Donphan actually does spin against common spinblockers. Donphan underspeeds Aegislash so that it can OHKO it with Earthquake while taking fairly minimal damage in return. Gengar gets smashed by Knock Off, and even if it survives, Ice Shard will finish it off shortly after. Speaking of which, Ice Shard is really weak sauce, but you can pick off a few weakened offensive Pokemon such as Garchomp, Landorus, Dragonite, Latios, and Thundurus at anywhere from ~30-50% health, depending on the Pokemon. It's also cool to finish off faster Pokemon that just barely survive one of the other attacks, like the aformentioned Gengar. Specially defensive Assault Vest looks weird, but here's a handful of calculations to show some of the hits it's capable of tanking:
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 105-124 (27.4 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 125-148 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 109-130 (28.4 - 33.9%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 149-177 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 87-103 (22.7 - 26.8%) -- 37.7% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Donphan: 157-186 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Donphan: 339-400 (88.5 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 181-214 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 151-178 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As you can see, there are a lot of relevant threats that Donphan can take hits from before hitting back. It can tank Tank Aegislash's Shadow Ball with ease and OHKO with Earthquake in return. It can even tank Shadow Balls from fast all out attacking sets pretty comfortably. It can switch into even Life Orb Thundurus with relative ease and KO with Knock Off + 2 Ice Shards. Not to mention that Thundurus will lose its Life Orb and hit Donphan even softer after that. Donphan can do anywhere from 92.5-110% to Landorus with 2 Ice Shards, which is a 62.5% chance to KO, while Landorus fails to 2HKO with Earth Power. Gengar isn't too much of a problem if it doesn't have Will-O-Wisp, while Donphan's Knock Off + Ice Shard KOs. Excadrill can't 2HKO without a Life Orb or Swords Dance boost, and Donphan's Earthquake easily OHKOs in return (unless it has an Air Balloon). If you're desperate, Donphan can survive bulky Charizard X's +1 Flare Blitz most of the time from full health before KOing with Earthquake + Flare Blitz's recoil damage. Donphan can switch directly into even Latios's Draco Meteor and survive before KOing with Knock Off + Ice Shard. Even Mega Gardevoir fails to 2HKO with Hyper Voice, while Earthquake easily 2HKOs back. While SpD Hippowdon can boast many of the same things, Donphan has a couple of advantages. Perhaps the most important one is the ability to spin, which is important for teams that want to have hazards off their side of the field without having to worry about resetting their own. Donphan's extra power overall and access to priority Ice Shard for picking off weakened offensive Pokemon and assisting KOs against some of them are also important.
Now, here's the thing: Donphan still sucks. Despite the set I just posted being able to take hits from several notable offensive Pokemon, it still can only switch in once or twice most of the time before it becomes too weak to switch directly in again and survive. Donphan's lack of any form of recovery makes it less reliable as a tank. Its Ice Shard is useful from time to time, but the fact that you can't even guarantee a 2HKO against an uninvested Landorus just goes to show that it's pretty darn weak. While actually being able to spin is handy, you have to ask if it's really that big of a deal when there are several solid Defoggers in OU and solid Stealth Rock users as well that won't mind setting the hazard a few additional times. Most of the time, I'd much rather run a specially defensive Hippowdon to take on some of the same things that the above Donphan set handles while offering Stealth Rock support and reliable recovery, as well as a separate defensive Pokemon to Defog and handle a few other threats of its own. However, Donphan still combines a few unique things into one, which is apparently good enough for a low rank. It has a tiny niche in being a bulky Ground-type that can also spin and occasionally pick things off with Ice Shard, but it only does that so well and sucks outside of that. All in all, it seems to fit the D Rank description pretty well. Again, I probably wouldn't even be posting this, but seeing as how we put Mantine in C- Rank (among other things), I don't think putting Donphan back in D Rank is a stretch at all.
i think the rankings are really inconsistent in how harsh they are on certain pokemon. Mega-Houndoom and Escavelier among other things have no place in ou but theyre still ranked for some reason. Donphan at least has a unique small niche of some kind rather than being totally outclassed.
Ask yourself, "Would I really use this pokemon instead of something else on a team that I'm playing seriously with and I really need to win?" If the answer is no, then don't let it be ranked lol
But seriously, the Donphan jokes like "Elephant of Lame" got old a long time ago. It's pretty bad, but it has a small niche despite its many flaws and fits the D Rank description. If you don't think it should be ranked, then feel free to post extensive reasoning why, but I didn't just spend half an hour on that post at 2 in the morning just to have it sarcastically dismissed by a hand waiving one-liner.
Hey, it's being suggested for D-rank. Know what else is in D-rank? Mega Aboma.
Donphan is a bulky ground type with just enough attack to not be a total pushover, and it differentiates itself from other ground with a somewhat extremely weak priority move and rapid spin. It has very heavy competition from pretty much every other ground type, and there's no real merit it has over them except in the two aforementioned traits.
Meanwhile, Mega Aboma has exactly one niche as a Trick Room sweeper that takes a mega slot; this is a role in which it has fierce competition from what is literally one of the best pokemon in the meta, let alone the Trick Room archetype: Mega Mawile. There is almost no reason to use Mega Aboma over Mega Mawile, except that it resists Earthquake (as opposed to being weak to it) and resists Electric and Water. In every other regard, Mega Mawile is better. It has a defensive typing that's literally the polar opposite of Obama's, it's weak to zero priority moves and resists several, and most importantly it's stronger (lol who needs mixed attack stats when you have the highest attack stat in the game.) Mega Aboma needs as much support as an eighty year old man with Alzheimer's, and when given that support it's not even that good, and has little to differentiate itself from a pokemon that is on the complete opposite of the viability scale. Donphan is to other ground types as Aboma is to Mawile, and hell even Mega Ampharos. And tbh Donphan is better than Aboma.
The entire argument I just made is what I think TFL is concerned about; the more barely viable pokemon we add, and the more barely viable pokemon we justify, the easier it is to justify things that frankly have almost no reason to be used. The C ranking has more pokemon in it than A or B; iirc C has 50ish mons in it, A and B have 30ish. The more and more questionably viable pokemon we add to/keep in these ranks, the less and less it means to be a C-ranked pokemon; the rank is being devalued.
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective.
This definition really does not fit the description of multiple pokemon in C-rank. Things like Mantine, Gastrodon, Arcanine, Mega Houndoom, Escavalier, Shuckle, Mega Banette, Sharpedo, Blissey, and probably some others do not really have a "notable niche" (don't nitpick my examples please, that's not the purpose of my post,) or at the very least they don't have a niche that either face very heavy competition from, or they're just not good at performing that niche.
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that.
This is a good description of things like Dugtrio, Arcanine, Shuckle, etc. They're either being used for a very specific reason (select teams, e.g. the team TFL made with Dugtrio) or are only able to do one specific task (e.g. Arcanine hard countering Mawile. Okay it can do other things but this is the only reason you'd use it.)
. . . but have no real niche . . . Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time
We should drop/change these parts of the definition. We shouldn't be ranking pokemon that don't actually do something (no real niche) and we shouldn't be ranking pokemon that are bad/inconsistent at that one, really specific thing they're supposed to do.
Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but viable enough to be used for some purpose. These Pokemon, in general, only have one specific niche, and are often only capable of fulling this niche. They have great difficulty in doing anything more significant than that without heavy team support. Pokemon from this rank are severely outclassed by Pokemon in the higher ranks, but have enough to warrant their usage on select teams.
This is a better definition imo. Could be shorter. Important part is, we shouldn't rank stuff that don't have a purpose in OU (no niche) and/or are really bad at doing whatever it is they were meant to do.
TL;DR:
Move a good number of lackluster/incredibly niche pokemon from C to D to add value to C-ranking, and make it less inflated
Change the definition of D rank so the things in there don't sound like total shit and have an actual reason to be ranked
Nominate as many shitmon as you want for the new D rank
Considering your the only person who is actually properly disagreeing on it and all you are saying is stupid one liners trying to be funny, and judging from other peoples post which have calcs (such as agent gibbs) i think we should rank it.
It clearly has a niche which is, imo higher than most of the D pokemon there. It is a spinner and it has the ability to beat the most common spin blockers:
0 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery<< as shown av donphan can live any hit and easily 2hko
0 Atk Donphan Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 282-334 (87 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO<< if balloon aegi then attacks you
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 105-124 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Donphan Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 248-292 (94.6 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 51-61 (19.4 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Im not saying excadrill cannot do this, but donphan actually has a defensive presence. Also before you compare the two, notice how we are suggesting donphan to be d, not a.
If you compare it to other d ranks, cloyster as a spinner is never getting past aegi and ton of a rank threat (unaware clef, keldeo). It is hard trying to compare donphan to most of these threats, but you can notice how meloetta is there solely as and aegislash check (only checks depending on aegi set). It clearly has a niche but just made worse (like ambipom in lower tiers) just because bad people use it and for some reason 3/4 of the forum are biased against it.
As the meta shifts, so does viability, if aegi gets banned, stuff like jirachi will go up a couple ranks, just because something was bad at one point, doesnt mean it is always bad (see arcanine)
A friend and I were discussing on showdown about Mega Gardevoir's rank. In short, he claimed it was B and I said it's B+. Now I'm far from an expert on Mega Garde, and I don't use it much besides for gimmicks and crap when I'm having fun. However, I'd like to get some opinions on the matter. Now on the regular OU ladder (1800s usually), I rarely see this thing in comparison to Medicham who has the same base speed but attacks from the physical side with pure power. In fact, I also see Heracross alot more than I do garde. So from my point of view, there has to be something flawed about garde that keeps it from being as popular as the other megas in the B+ rank. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe Garde is popular and I just don't stumble into her for some reason.
Anyway, to those who use her on their main teams, is she deserving of a B+ rank or should she drop to B?
