Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[LZH14]

hmmm yeah idk i see her quite often so maybe just coincidence or something
i think shes fine in b+, your friends rationalle is probably cause she's checked by faster physicals and countered by aegislash (goodbye soon pls maybe?) and scizor which is perfectly reasonable. however, putting things in comparison, i would say that m-garde is def better than things like conkeldurr and kingdra and fits perfectly fine with the other b+ mons

 

[Baharoth]

A friend and I were discussing on showdown about Mega Gardevoir's rank. In short, he claimed it was B and I said it's B+. Now I'm far from an expert on Mega Garde, and I don't use it much besides for gimmicks and crap when I'm having fun. However, I'd like to get some opinions on the matter. Now on the regular OU ladder (1800s usually), I rarely see this thing in comparison to Medicham who has the same base speed but attacks from the physical side with pure power. In fact, I also see Heracross alot more than I do garde. So from my point of view, there has to be something flawed about garde that keeps it from being as popular as the other megas in the B+ rank. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe Garde is popular and I just don't stumble into her for some reason.

Anyway, to those who use her on their main teams, is she deserving of a B+ rank or should she drop to B?

If Aegi stays where he is i think B+ is fine for it, Garde is a very good mon in here own right but the presence of Aegi realy hinders her alot, without him she only has to worry about revengekilling because there is nothing else that can switch into her. She can pull her weight against offense with her solid special bulk allowing her to take on things like thundurus but she performs best against balance and stall, in fact she is capable of dismantling stall teams on her own once aegi is gone. With taunt and psyshock she easily breaks chansey and basicly everything else i can think of that is commonly seen on stall is 2hkoed. How good she is realy depends on the meta, with aegi and HO everywhere until a few weeks ago B+ was the best she could hope for, however with HO now gone, and Aegi probably leaving as well she might go up significantly depending on how the meta adapts.

 

[jbtc10]

Mega Garde is worthy of B+ because you can tailor it to what suits your team rather nicely, it has a modest but decent movepool and it has pretty trivial and straightforward ways to deal with its would-be counters. The primary issue for it is Steel types, in which there are 2 main categories; Heatran, and everything else. You can break Heatran with HP Ground (I've seen that happen quite a lot), and you can break most of the others (such as Scizor, Ferro and even Aegislash) with Wisp or HP Fire (running Wisp lets you do both on 1 set, allowing Garde to be self-sufficient vs Steels rather than requiring team support). Chansey can be removed via Calm Mind/Taunt + Psyshock, or you can pair Garde with a Pursuit Bisharp (which also covers Gardes weaknesses, having good defensive synergy) so you can drop Calm Mind or Taunt to allow the set of Voice/Shock/HP Ground/Wisp to be very tricky to counter indeed, basically reducing the options to a select few bulky fire types like Bold Char-Y and Moltress and both of them can still struggle with prior damage and stealth rock issues. So in this sense, it can break defensive cores really well, much better than what Megacham can.

Against offense though, it's a tad mediocre from what I've seen which is presumably where it derives it's B+ ranking from; it's comparatively slow and physically frail. It can't take priority Brave Birds, Bullet Punches or Shadow Sneaks, nor any powerful neutral hit for the most part and has few switch-in opportunities (it can come in on the Lati's fairly well, but not much else). This can be somewhat remedied through aggressively investing in bulk, but that comes at the obvious expense of nerfing your damage output which can be undesirable. It does check a good number of special attackers though, which is a definite asset. So overall, B+ seems to be the right spot for her at the moment and I really wouldn't consider dropping her because she's a leading mon which stall needs to consider and when played to her strengths can put in a good amount of work against any playstyle.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

loldonphan

Anyway, what keeps Latios from A+?

Latios can afford to run three offensive moves and is not as predictable as his sister. He's an excellent Defogger in the metagame, probably the best one since he has an extreme offensive presence and can sometimes get past his would-be counters, such as Heatran, Excadrill AND EVEN BISHARP. But not only that. He can also be an excellent special attacker which can be frustrating to take out if he has Roost, a nice revenge killer which outspeeds almost anything and a good lead for BP teams. This is why, in my opinion, Latios is more versatile than Latias. But I know what you're thinking: "BUUUUUUT HEALING WISH!!!". well, I'm gonna adress this first.

1) Let's sit down, and admit, that Healing Wish is very overrated.
First, Latias can't use this move reliably against offensive teams, as Pokemon with more than base 110 Speed, including Thundurus (who can also Taunt her), Greninja, Talonflame, Mega Alakazam, Weavile (who can Pursuit her to death) and most scarf users (notable exception: Keldeo). Then you realize the fact that LATIAS HAS TO SACRIFICE HERSELF to keep another teammate healthy.... remember back in Gen 4 when Gengar and Heatran needed Explosion to get past Blissey? Something similar is the case with Latias. This move isn't that effective against stall either, as this team archetype relies on passive damage and many times it has no problem getting SR back up.
Don't get me wrong, Healing Wish is good, but I just don't think this is enough to differentiate her from Latios. Maybe I'm just not using HW Latias at her full potential...

2) Latios is slightly stronger than her sister.
Latios can get past Heatran and Bisharp with Earthquake and nuke everything else with Draco Meteor and Psyshock. He also isn't buttfucked by Thundurus as he can OHKO the genie with DM and doesn't really care about Taunt if he used Defog before. Also, he has the ability to threaten Excadrill, which 2HKOes Latias with EQ and doesn't care about any Latias without a super effective Hidden Power.

3) Latios can play the role of a revenge killer.
Something Latias can't, as she is outclassed. This set is extremely surprising sometimes, since it can defeat unsuspecting Greninja/Thundurus/Weavile. Choice Scarf Latios outspeeds almost any other Scarfer and proceed to blast it with the appropriate move. He can also revenge kill +1 Mega Charizard X, who can be extremely hard to stop otherwise. He can even outspeed slower Swift Swim users IN THE RAIN (such as 192 Spe Seismitoad and Ludicolo). This set also excels against stall since it can render a wall such as Chansey nearly useless with Trick.

4) LATIOS DOES NOT NEED DEFOG TO FUNCTION.
As you can see on the Smogon strategydex, Latios can replace Defog with Roost and act as a powerful nuke which isn't easy to take down. I used Draco Meteor/HP Fighting/Psyshock/Roost Latios before and that set kicked ass. Any Bisharp trying to switch in (expecting Defog) is met with a HP Fighting and dies. This Latios can also switch in into Pokemon such as Thundurus, KO with Draco Meteor and then Roost back up, something Defog Latios/Latias dreams of doing.

5) Latios is an excellent Dual Screen user and lead for SmashPass/QuickPass teams.
It can easily set up dual screens against many targets, including Keldeo, Ferrothorn, non-Unaware Clefable, Hippowdon, Terrakion, Chansey and has access to Memento to allow Smeargle / Gorebyss / Scolipede to come in and set up. This works especially if the recipient is something like Espeon or Mega Absol to prevent roarers from raining on its day. Memento is much better than Healing Wish in this situation, as very few Pokemon will be able to break the recipient's substitute or even hurt it at all when it's at -2 and the opponent has both screens up, whereas Healing Wish Latias is outclassed in this case by Lunar Dance Cresselia, which is A LOT bulkier.

Spent about 20 minutes typing this post, and I think Latios is a bit better than his sister, so he should move up.

 

[Baharoth]

Anyway, what keeps Latios from A+?

That can be answered in a single word. Pursuitbait. The Latis are in permanent danger when there is a Scizor, Bisharp or Tyranitar on the opponents team limiting their ability to come in and do what they are supposed to do.

And no, Latios isnt better than his sister. More useful for most teams due to its stronger offensive stats, maybe but Latias extra bulk also has its merrits and healing wish can be a gods end for offensive teams giving Latias a big edge over her brother.

 

[HolyAvatar]

With hp fighting it is hardly pursuit bait.

4 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 134-162 (44.3 - 53.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 166-198 (41 - 49%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

T-tar risks the 2hko if it comes in on Latios. Even scarfTar has to choose between crunch and pursuit (and has to be jolly to outspeed) -> coin toss.

Most bisharps don't run pursuit anymore since standard set is: knock off/sucker punch/iron head/sd. And even then it is a coin toss since:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 458-541 (168.3 - 198.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega scizor will always win though since you can't 2 hko, it doesn't need pursuit: either roost or u-turn is good enough.

 

[Karxrida]

With hp fighting it is hardly pursuit bait.

4 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 134-162 (44.3 - 53.6%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 166-198 (41 - 49%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

T-tar risks the 2hko if it comes in on Latios. Even scarfTar has to choose between crunch and pursuit (and has to be jolly to outspeed) -> coin toss.

Most bisharps don't run pursuit anymore since standard set is: knock off/sucker punch/iron head/sd. And even then it is a coin toss since:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 458-541 (168.3 - 198.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It has to choose between pursuit and sucker punch anyway -> coi toss.

Mega scizor will always win though since you can't 2 hko, it doesn't need pursuit: either roost or u-turn is good enough.

T-Tar always runs max Attack unless you're running the support set, and ScarfTar still does over 50% with Pursuit.
252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

It still forces out Latios and you won't know its Scarf unless you decide to stay in a take a possible Crunch, which will OHKO.

 

[Prosecutor Godot]

That can be answered in a single word. Pursuitbait. The Latis are in permanent danger when there is a Scizor, Bisharp or Tyranitar on the opponents team limiting their ability to come in and do what they are supposed to do.

And no, Latios isnt better than his sister. More useful for most teams due to its stronger offensive stats, maybe but Latias extra bulk also has its merrits and healing wish can be a gods end for offensive teams giving Latias a big edge over her brother.

I think you're making out Latios to be easier to Pursuit trap than it actually is. If Bisharp gets in on Latios, you're forced into a coin flip position over Sucker Punch or Pursuit, if it has HP Fighting or Earthquake and you Pursuit you lose Bisharp, but if you Sucker Punch and it switches you missed the opportunity to trap. Tyranitar does a bit better of a job but LO Dracos, Surfs and Earthquakes do a lot and Scarftar has to 50/50 it between a Pursuit that won't OHKO if Latios doesn't switch and take a lot of damage from Latios coverage move or Crunch expecting Latios to stay in and miss the trap attempt like Bisharp. Aegislash and Mega Scizor do it best, but from what I've seen Mega Scizor is just about always either defogging or sweeping SD these days, and I may be mistaken but I think Pursuit Aegislash has also been on the decline as of late in favor of Pursuit Bisharp. Anyway I could support Latios for A+, but not because Latias sucks and Healing Wish is overrated because that's not true. I'd support it because it's THE offensive defogger, just like Excadrill is THE rapid spinner. If you want to get rid of hazards and not use something that will kill your offensive momentum like Skarmory, you just about have to use Latios. I think it's all around better than a lot of the current A Rank mold right now like Rotom-W and Heatran anyway.

 

[HolyAvatar]

T-Tar always runs max Attack unless you're running the support set, and ScarfTar still does over 50% with Pursuit.
252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

It still forces out Latios and you won't know its Scarf unless you decide to stay in a take a possible Crunch, which will OHKO.

First of all, in your scenario, you'd need a clean switch.
And even then, if you click pursuit on the 1st turn you can be 2hkoed. Only jolly scarf tar can safely click pursuit and be 100% sure to win. The others are coin flips which may lead to Latios escaping.
Don't forget that scarf tar locked into pursuit means 1 free turn for the latios team.

 

[Baharoth]

I am just saying that the pursuit weakness is the main reason why the latis arent A+ threats, it severly hampers their viablity. Yes, they have ways to deal specific Trappers but that leads to another problem called 4 mss. Shock and DM are set, then you want surf/EQ for Heat, Hp fighting for Ttar and Bisharp, HP Fire for Aegi/Scizor, Roost, Defog and Thunderbolt for Azu and Mandi. With everything said and done you will always be weak to at least 2 trappers if not more and even with the appropriate coverage move its not like you have nothing to worry about as you have to hit them on the predicted switch, otherwise your forced into unfavorable guessing games.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Cool.

I'd say most of them are, there are definitely some that are worse than others but that is the purpose of a ranking, is it not?

It's worth keeping Pokemon with a viable niche that has some sort of merit in the metagame. Not a "middle child" niche but a viable one. Tournament appearances are good too. For example, Blissey and Mantine have had several appearances in WCOP, and obviously if they were more than often a waster of a team slot, they would not be brought to these tournaments.

even in tour level teams which abuse niche mons in order to beat the foe sometimes, Blissey should never be used, it loses to every knock off user so there is no point with that argument. And its terrible in general, just so easy to take advantage of Chansey which has the defense to abuse certain situations like vs CM 3 atks Mega Garde and other shit.

Anyways before I see Diancie arguments for C- to anywhere to B- (doubt it) I would like to say it isn't your smartest choice to mess with Diancie's rank rn because its possible that maybe its more useful than anticipated. I really don't know. And most of us really don't know how Diancie will work, most of Diancie stuff is theorymon and the stuff that isn't needs more experience to judge. Not a rule by any means, just a suggestion if you want a more accurate ranking

 

[pika pal]

I think you're making out Latios to be easier to Pursuit trap than it actually is. If Bisharp gets in on Latios, you're forced into a coin flip position over Sucker Punch or Pursuit, if it has HP Fighting or Earthquake and you Pursuit you lose Bisharp, but if you Sucker Punch and it switches you missed the opportunity to trap. Tyranitar does a bit better of a job but LO Dracos, Surfs and Earthquakes do a lot and Scarftar has to 50/50 it between a Pursuit that won't OHKO if Latios doesn't switch and take a lot of damage from Latios coverage move or Crunch expecting Latios to stay in and miss the trap attempt like Bisharp. Aegislash and Mega Scizor do it best, but from what I've seen Mega Scizor is just about always either defogging or sweeping SD these days, and I may be mistaken but I think Pursuit Aegislash has also been on the decline as of late in favor of Pursuit Bisharp. Anyway I could support Latios for A+, but not because Latias sucks and Healing Wish is overrated because that's not true. I'd support it because it's THE offensive defogger, just like Excadrill is THE rapid spinner. If you want to get rid of hazards and not use something that will kill your offensive momentum like Skarmory, you just about have to use Latios. I think it's all around better than a lot of the current A Rank mold right now like Rotom-W and Heatran anyway.

While Tyranitar obviously suffers as noted, I think Bisharp's 50/50 does hurt Latios more than Bisharp in that case, if only because in both situations, the Bisharp user most often has accomplished their job compared to Latios.

If Bisharp picks Sucker Punch:
Latios switches: Latios survives, but has not Defogged (If it was a Defog set)
Latios stays in: Latios dies to Sucker Punch

Bisharp Pursuits:
Latios Switches: Latios dies
Latios stays in: Bisharp dies

There is a 50/50 for Latios to die, but Bisharp survives every time as long as it picks Sucker Punch. If Bisharp SP's, Latios either fails to Defog, which means Bisharp has protected the hazards) or dies, which puts the opponent down a Pokemon. Essentially, the 50/50 almost always ends in Bisharp's favor if he picked Sucker Punch. It's usually only in his best interest to pick Pursuit if he's confident in his prediction and really needs Latios gone.

 

[Karxrida]

Considering your the only person who is actually properly disagreeing on it and all you are saying is stupid one liners trying to be funny, and judging from other peoples post which have calcs (such as agent gibbs) i think we should rank it.

It clearly has a niche which is, imo higher than most of the D pokemon there. It is a spinner and it has the ability to beat the most common spin blockers:
0 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery<< as shown av donphan can live any hit and easily 2hko
0 Atk Donphan Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 282-334 (87 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO<< if balloon aegi then attacks you
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Donphan: 105-124 (27.3 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 Atk Donphan Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 248-292 (94.6 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 51-61 (19.4 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Im not saying excadrill cannot do this, but donphan actually has a defensive presence. Also before you compare the two, notice how we are suggesting donphan to be d, not a.
If you compare it to other d ranks, cloyster as a spinner is never getting past aegi and ton of a rank threat (unaware clef, keldeo). It is hard trying to compare donphan to most of these threats, but you can notice how meloetta is there solely as and aegislash check (only checks depending on aegi set). It clearly has a niche but just made worse (like ambipom in lower tiers) just because bad people use it and for some reason 3/4 of the forum are biased against it.

As the meta shifts, so does viability, if aegi gets banned, stuff like jirachi will go up a couple ranks, just because something was bad at one point, doesnt mean it is always bad (see arcanine)

Agent Gibbs said himself that it sucks and is outclassed. I see no reason to rank something like that without a relevant niche. It looks nice on paper with stud like Knock Off and Rapid Spin but something will always do its job better. Lando is a better Knock Off spammer since it's stronger and has U-turn and Intimidate on top of that. Excadrill is a better Spinner and it can even set up SR if you really wanted to while also scaring out Aegislash. Mamoswine can actually kill shit with Ice Shard, sets up SR with Oblivious, and can even kill Rotom-W with Freeze-Dry. Garchomp is bulky without investment, can sweep, and even get past Steels with Fire Blast.

TL;DR
Why the fuck would you use Donphan when there a ton of better Ground-types to use?

 

[Anty]

Agent Gibbs said himself that it sucks and is outclassed. I see no reason to rank something like that without a relevant niche. It looks nice on paper with stud like Knock Off and Rapid Spin but something will always do its job better. Lando is a better Knock Off spammer since it's stronger and has U-turn and Intimidate on top of that. Excadrill is a better Spinner and it can even set up SR if you really wanted to while also scaring out Aegislash. Mamoswine can actually kill shit with Ice Shard, sets up SR with Oblivious, and can even kill Rotom-W with Freeze-Dry. Garchomp is bulky without investment, can sweep, and even get past Steels with Fire Blast.

TL;DR
Why the fuck would you use Donphan when there a ton of better Ground-types to use?

'A ton of better ground types'. There is only one relevant ground type spinner (unless you count claydol or sandslash, the first is utterly weak the other is outclassed by donphan/exca lol), and excadril doesnt have any defensive presence. I know other pokes can rapid spin but in the viability rank there is kabutops (no, smeargle). Kabutops' niche is in rain and and has no defensive presence at all.

Lando, mamoswine or garchomp dont have rapid spin, which is donphans niche. Im not saying its niche is in its physical tankiness and ground typing or with ice shard + ground typing or ability to set up and practically guarantee at least one ko.

There has been enough talk about how excadril does not completely outclass donphan and it has been shown to have a relevant niche and no matter how much you compare it to lando, it will still be the only one with rapid spin. Also, good luck switching exca into aegislash.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

>sandslash outclassed by donphan
>excadrill having no defensive presence

I love this thread.

Donphan is absolute shit and should stay unranked. It's mediocre and outclassed at anything it does, whether it would be Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, Knock Off, revenge kill or Choice Band. Rapid Spin + Odor Sleuth is a tiny niche but imo it's not enough to grant it a rank.

 

[Baharoth]

Why the fuck would you use Donphan when there a ton of better Ground-types to use?

Because its the best bulky spinner that doesnt need a mega slot, simple as that. Its basicly Hippowdon with rapidspin instead of recovery. Yes defensive teams are usually better of going with a defogger while offensive teams looking for a spinner will use Excadrill but if you want to have a rapid spinner on your balance/stall team your best bets are Donphan and Mega Blastoise.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

BLACKLISTED POKEMON​

• Florges
• Donphan
• Heliolisk
• Darmanitan

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Because its the best bulky spinner that doesnt need a mega slot, simple as that. Its basicly Hippowdon with rapidspin instead of recovery. Yes defensive teams are usually better of going with a defogger while offensive teams looking for a spinner will use Excadrill but if you want to have a rapid spinner on your balance/stall team your best bets are Donphan and Mega Blastoise.

Fucking Tentacruel and Forretress do Donphan's job better on stall and don't take up the mega slot. Forretress also has access to Pain Split for some recovery. I'm not saying Tentacruel and Forretress are viable in OU.

 

[Jukain]

Raikou is B-? I just noticed this, there's no way it's lower than B. It's at least on par with Mega Manectric. Raikou is a good Electrics and birds check with a crucial Speed tier that makes it a soft check to multiple things like Keldeo and Charizard Y (can actually take a Fire Blast with AV), and makes it able to revenge kill the likes of weakened Latis, Chomp, Landorus, and Gar. Meanwhile it is excellent at generating momentum with Volt Switch and is fairly versatile, able to run AV, SubCM, 3 atks LO CM, and Specs sets effectively. Most of the Pokemon in B- Rank don't even see much if any serious play, while Raikou is at least seen with decent frequency. It's way better than everything in that rank and some of the B Ranks.

Back to what I said on things seeing usage at a high level of play, I think this is an issue with some of the current lower ranks as they stand. Out of B-, Crawdaunt and Victini stand out. I mean they're okay in theory but there's just so little reason to use them. Crawdaunt is basically only viable in TR as outside it's too frail and slow to be a more consistently useful pick than the likes of Azumarill. I haven't seen a Victini since XY started, it's honestly just bad because there's no sun to power up its attacks, it's SR weak, can be used as setup fodder for things like Mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados, and the CB set that was a wallbreaker really can't do that anymore vs stall at the least. I know Monte Cristo has had success with a stallbreaking Taunt Wisp set, but that has limitations of its own. These two are C+ at best, perhaps lower.

Out of the C Ranks I see numerous unviable Pokemon while things that are actually decent ranked lower than garbage. Espeon, Krookodile, Seismitoad, Sharpedo, and Smeargle do not belong in C+ Rank. There's no reason to use Espeon as a screener really ?_? Azelf is just better. Espeon is just so bad, no higher than C-. Krookodile is ok with a defensive set but generally outclassed by other bulky Grounds, and certainly doesn't belong with defensive mons like Alomomola and Togekiss that have definable niches and aren't actually outclassed. I'd say C. Seismitoad is bad even on rain teams. There are Electrics and things HW Latias and Mamoswine to counteract Thundurus, why would you use this sack of shit to do that. It's weak in comparison to other Swift Swimmers and has less useful coverage/options that make it easily walled. You're using it over Kingdra or Kabutops which is an enormous negative because it simply does not bring as much to the table as those for the team overall. C- or D. Sharpedo only has Speed Boost + DBond, which is nice but it's not strong enough to get a lot of KOs, and is walled by common offensive threats like Azumarill and Keldeo, as well as a slew of defensive ones. And if it can't OHKO, it's so frail that it dies. D. Smeargle just isn't as good as the rest of C+ Rank. It's worse than Shuckle at Sticky Web + SR, and it's worse than Venomoth, Gorebyss, and Scolipede at QuickPass. It's ok at both of those roles but not spectacular. I'd say C - C- is appropriate. Oh and Zygarde should be in C. Its SubCoil set is supposed to stallbreak but can't even do that ?_? DD is terrible, weak and outclassed. Plus it's just not worth using because of a crappy Speed tier and lack of power over Garchomp or DD Dragonite.

Escavalier and Umbreon are total garbage pls unrank. In any case Sala is barely viable, it's outclassed and honestly individually bad. D, maybe, or unranked? In C-, Roserade stands out. Spikes suck in general and Roserade is frail, slow, and overall shitty. Snorlax is just a do-nothing tank that ultimately has little reason to be used over Chansey, which has much better bulk, reliable recovery, and much more utility for its team. Toxicroak is...really bad. It's weak and can't really check any of the things it's supposed to check because it's so frail. Offensive and defensive teams alike have numerous easy checks to it, and it's slow with a rather weak Sucker Punch that only gets it so far. I think it should also be unranked.

 

[Karxrida]

Or you can use any of the Defoggers that exist for.Stall lime Skarmory, who also has Roost and Phazing.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Raikou is B-? I just noticed this, there's no way it's lower than B. It's at least on par with Mega Manectric. Raikou is a good Electrics and birds check with a crucial Speed tier that makes it a soft check to multiple things like Keldeo and Charizard Y (can actually take a Fire Blast with AV), and makes it able to revenge kill the likes of weakened Latis, Chomp, Landorus, and Gar. Meanwhile it is excellent at generating momentum with Volt Switch and is fairly versatile, able to run AV, SubCM, 3 atks LO CM, and Specs sets effectively. Most of the Pokemon in B- Rank don't even see much if any serious play, while Raikou is at least seen with decent frequency. It's way better than everything in that rank and some of the B Ranks.

Back to what I said on things seeing usage at a high level of play, I think this is an issue with some of the current lower ranks as they stand. Out of B-, Crawdaunt and Victini stand out. I mean they're okay in theory but there's just so little reason to use them. Crawdaunt is basically only viable in TR as outside it's too frail and slow to be a more consistently useful pick than the likes of Azumarill. I haven't seen a Victini since XY started, it's honestly just bad because there's no sun to power up its attacks, it's SR weak, can be used as setup fodder for things like Mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados, and the CB set that was a wallbreaker really can't do that anymore vs stall at the least. I know Monte Cristo has had success with a stallbreaking Taunt Wisp set, but that has limitations of its own. These two are C+ at best, perhaps lower.

Out of the C Ranks I see numerous unviable Pokemon while things that are actually decent ranked lower than garbage. Espeon, Krookodile, Seismitoad, Sharpedo, and Smeargle do not belong in C+ Rank. There's no reason to use Espeon as a screener really ?_? Azelf is just better. Espeon is just so bad, no higher than C-. Krookodile is ok with a defensive set but generally outclassed by other bulky Grounds, and certainly doesn't belong with defensive mons like Alomomola and Togekiss that have definable niches and aren't actually outclassed. I'd say C. Seismitoad is bad even on rain teams. There are Electrics and things HW Latias and Mamoswine to counteract Thundurus, why would you use this sack of shit to do that. It's weak in comparison to other Swift Swimmers and has less useful coverage/options that make it easily walled. You're using it over Kingdra or Kabutops which is an enormous negative because it simply does not bring as much to the table as those for the team overall. C- or D. Sharpedo only has Speed Boost + DBond, which is nice but it's not strong enough to get a lot of KOs, and is walled by common offensive threats like Azumarill and Keldeo, as well as a slew of defensive ones. And if it can't OHKO, it's so frail that it dies. D. Smeargle just isn't as good as the rest of C+ Rank. It's worse than Shuckle at Sticky Web + SR, and it's worse than Venomoth, Gorebyss, and Scolipede at QuickPass. It's ok at both of those roles but not spectacular. I'd say C - C- is appropriate. Oh and Zygarde should be in C. Its SubCoil set is supposed to stallbreak but can't even do that ?_? DD is terrible, weak and outclassed. Plus it's just not worth using because of a crappy Speed tier and lack of power over Garchomp or DD Dragonite.

Escavalier and Umbreon are total garbage pls unrank. In any case Sala is barely viable, it's outclassed and honestly individually bad. D, maybe, or unranked? In C-, Roserade stands out. Spikes suck in general and Roserade is frail, slow, and overall shitty. Snorlax is just a do-nothing tank that ultimately has little reason to be used over Chansey, which has much better bulk, reliable recovery, and much more utility for its team. Toxicroak is...really bad. It's weak and can't really check any of the things it's supposed to check because it's so frail. Offensive and defensive teams alike have numerous easy checks to it, and it's slow with a rather weak Sucker Punch that only gets it so far. I think it should also be unranked.

Victini is good enough to be B rank but everybody was bitching since nobody really even uses the best variant (wisp taunt) so that alone stopped it from raw B rank. Trying to move it down is just kinda dumb. maybe more thoughts later

Albacore Adrian Marin can back this up queck

aside from that yeah, lots of shit are just trash in C+ so I agree on that, however seismitoed should be kept until we get mswamp because swift swimmer with twave immunity is a HUGE niche not worth lowering

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Out of the C Ranks I see numerous unviable Pokemon while things that are actually decent ranked lower than garbage. Espeon, Krookodile, Seismitoad, Sharpedo, and Smeargle do not belong in C+ Rank. There's no reason to use Espeon as a screener really ?_? Azelf is just better. Espeon is just so bad, no higher than C-. Krookodile is ok with a defensive set but generally outclassed by other bulky Grounds, and certainly doesn't belong with defensive mons like Alomomola and Togekiss that have definable niches and aren't actually outclassed. I'd say C. Seismitoad is bad even on rain teams. There are Electrics and things HW Latias and Mamoswine to counteract Thundurus, why would you use this sack of shit to do that. It's weak in comparison to other Swift Swimmers and has less useful coverage/options that make it easily walled. You're using it over Kingdra or Kabutops which is an enormous negative because it simply does not bring as much to the table as those for the team overall. C- or D. Sharpedo only has Speed Boost + DBond, which is nice but it's not strong enough to get a lot of KOs, and is walled by common offensive threats like Azumarill and Keldeo, as well as a slew of defensive ones. And if it can't OHKO, it's so frail that it dies. D. Smeargle just isn't as good as the rest of C+ Rank. It's worse than Shuckle at Sticky Web + SR, and it's worse than Venomoth, Gorebyss, and Scolipede at QuickPass. It's ok at both of those roles but not spectacular. I'd say C - C- is appropriate. Oh and Zygarde should be in C. Its SubCoil set is supposed to stallbreak but can't even do that ?_? DD is terrible, weak and outclassed. Plus it's just not worth using because of a crappy Speed tier and lack of power over Garchomp or DD Dragonite.

Escavalier and Umbreon are total garbage pls unrank. In any case Sala is barely viable, it's outclassed and honestly individually bad. D, maybe, or unranked? In C-, Roserade stands out. Spikes suck in general and Roserade is frail, slow, and overall shitty. Snorlax is just a do-nothing tank that ultimately has little reason to be used over Chansey, which has much better bulk, reliable recovery, and much more utility for its team. Toxicroak is...really bad. It's weak and can't really check any of the things it's supposed to check because it's so frail. Offensive and defensive teams alike have numerous easy checks to it, and it's slow with a rather weak Sucker Punch that only gets it so far. I think it should also be unranked.

I agree with you on Espeon, Umbreon, Smeargle and Sharpedo.

Espeon should even go to D rank. I mean, it's a good Baton Pass recipient, but so is fucking Electivire. Honestly what does this thing have over other dual screeners bar Magic Bounce?
Sharpedo can get surprise kills with Destiny Bond and maybe kill something, but it's ridiculously frail and weak to priority. Drop to C
Smeargle... you know, Shuckle exists. But it's still a nice SmashPasser. Drop to C-
Umbreon is plain trash and outclassed. It has no offensive presence and almost anything with Substitute/immune to Toxic buttfucks it. Drop to blacklist or unranked.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Raikou is B-? I just noticed this, there's no way it's lower than B. It's at least on par with Mega Manectric. Raikou is a good Electrics and birds check with a crucial Speed tier that makes it a soft check to multiple things like Keldeo and Charizard Y (can actually take a Fire Blast with AV), and makes it able to revenge kill the likes of weakened Latis, Chomp, Landorus, and Gar. Meanwhile it is excellent at generating momentum with Volt Switch and is fairly versatile, able to run AV, SubCM, 3 atks LO CM, and Specs sets effectively. Most of the Pokemon in B- Rank don't even see much if any serious play, while Raikou is at least seen with decent frequency. It's way better than everything in that rank and some of the B Ranks.

Back to what I said on things seeing usage at a high level of play, I think this is an issue with some of the current lower ranks as they stand. Out of B-, Crawdaunt and Victini stand out. I mean they're okay in theory but there's just so little reason to use them. Crawdaunt is basically only viable in TR as outside it's too frail and slow to be a more consistently useful pick than the likes of Azumarill. I haven't seen a Victini since XY started, it's honestly just bad because there's no sun to power up its attacks, it's SR weak, can be used as setup fodder for things like Mega Charizard X and Mega Gyarados, and the CB set that was a wallbreaker really can't do that anymore vs stall at the least. I know Monte Cristo has had success with a stallbreaking Taunt Wisp set, but that has limitations of its own. These two are C+ at best, perhaps lower.

Out of the C Ranks I see numerous unviable Pokemon while things that are actually decent ranked lower than garbage. Espeon, Krookodile, Seismitoad, Sharpedo, and Smeargle do not belong in C+ Rank. There's no reason to use Espeon as a screener really ?_? Azelf is just better. Espeon is just so bad, no higher than C-. Krookodile is ok with a defensive set but generally outclassed by other bulky Grounds, and certainly doesn't belong with defensive mons like Alomomola and Togekiss that have definable niches and aren't actually outclassed. I'd say C. Seismitoad is bad even on rain teams. There are Electrics and things HW Latias and Mamoswine to counteract Thundurus, why would you use this sack of shit to do that. It's weak in comparison to other Swift Swimmers and has less useful coverage/options that make it easily walled. You're using it over Kingdra or Kabutops which is an enormous negative because it simply does not bring as much to the table as those for the team overall. C- or D. Sharpedo only has Speed Boost + DBond, which is nice but it's not strong enough to get a lot of KOs, and is walled by common offensive threats like Azumarill and Keldeo, as well as a slew of defensive ones. And if it can't OHKO, it's so frail that it dies. D. Smeargle just isn't as good as the rest of C+ Rank. It's worse than Shuckle at Sticky Web + SR, and it's worse than Venomoth, Gorebyss, and Scolipede at QuickPass. It's ok at both of those roles but not spectacular. I'd say C - C- is appropriate. Oh and Zygarde should be in C. Its SubCoil set is supposed to stallbreak but can't even do that ?_? DD is terrible, weak and outclassed. Plus it's just not worth using because of a crappy Speed tier and lack of power over Garchomp or DD Dragonite.

Escavalier and Umbreon are total garbage pls unrank. In any case Sala is barely viable, it's outclassed and honestly individually bad. D, maybe, or unranked? In C-, Roserade stands out. Spikes suck in general and Roserade is frail, slow, and overall shitty. Snorlax is just a do-nothing tank that ultimately has little reason to be used over Chansey, which has much better bulk, reliable recovery, and much more utility for its team. Toxicroak is...really bad. It's weak and can't really check any of the things it's supposed to check because it's so frail. Offensive and defensive teams alike have numerous easy checks to it, and it's slow with a rather weak Sucker Punch that only gets it so far. I think it should also be unranked.

Salamence has to be ranked because its only usable in OU.

 

[Red Cat]

There has been a lot of discussion here recently about what is viable or not. Game Freak has not made very many fully evolved Pokemon which are 100% outclassed by another (there are rare examples like Manaphy and Phione where one completely eclipses the other, but this doesn't happen very often). Pokemon like Donphan, Heliolisk, and Darmanitan have a combination of attributes which no other Pokemon has. Almost any Pokemon can be considered viable in OU if you use this reasoning to justify ranking a Pokemon. The reason why Pokemon are not viable is because they have so many negative attributes in comparison to higher ranked Pokemon that the unique combination of positive attributes is dwarfed by all of the negative attributes. We know Donphan has the unique combination of Rapid Spin + Knock Off + Ice Shard, but Excadrill has so many advantages over Donphan that this niche is just not worth it in the long run.

I believe a Pokemon should only be considered viable if it is part of a team which can win consistently on the high ladder or in tournaments. If a Pokemon has a niche, but has never been part of a really good team, then it should not be considered viable. Agent Gibbs , as much effort as you put in your post, it is ultimately just theorymoning. It would be a lot better to show replays of Donphan in action carrying out the niche you described against good opponents to convince people that it should be ranked. If there is a good team with Donphan out there, then sure it should be ranked, but I have yet to see a good team with Donphan on it.

Also, if a Pokemon is currently unranked, but is better than another Pokemon currently in the C- or D ranks, then that is not a good reason to rank that Pokemon. Instead, we should drop the Pokemon which is currently ranked off the list as it probably shouldn't have been there in the first place.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Salamence has to be ranked because its only usable in OU.

Um no, iirc Salamence only has to get an analysis because it's only usable in OU, not necessarily ranked on the viability thread. If Salamence is so bad that it doesn't deserve a ranking, then there is all right to make it unranked, at least according to alexwolf what I have said is the case. That said, I wouldn't be opposed to Mence being in D or unranked because there are a number of reasons why I would never use Salamence in OU (outclassed, wrecked by Fairies, etc.).

poor gen 3 pseudo-legends