Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[MilkyWay]

152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 162-192 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 123-144 (40.5 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 246-289 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 183-216 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 243-286 (80.1 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 366-432 (120.7 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, what makes it better than Rotom-W at running T-Wave, exactly?

I guess because it can beat threats such as (Mega) Scizor, Mega Mawile, Ferrothorn, and others weak to fire with Overheat without resorting to Will-O-Wisp like Rotom-W does. This frees up a spot for Thunder Wave since Will-O-Wisp isnt needed for Rotom-H to beat these pokemon.

I dont support moving Rotom-H up, but that's why it runs Thunder Wave better than Rotom-W.

 

[Askeia]

152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 162-192 (53.4 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 123-144 (40.5 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 246-289 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 183-216 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 243-286 (80.1 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 152+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Outrage vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Rotom-H: 366-432 (120.7 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, what makes it better than Rotom-W at running T-Wave, exactly?

The EV spread was recycled from an older post, at which point dealing with both charizard refers to taking 2 Fire Blasts from CharY or taking any hit from +1 CharX and permanently crippling both in return. What makes the prediction game so hard for Charizard is the threat of Charizard-X getting a DD up. 248/32 ensures it always survives +1 Dragon Claw which means it always gets to cripple Charizard before going down, so your team is safe from a sweep. If Rotom actually switches into a unboosted Dragon Claw instead, the threat of a potential Thunder Wave means you can safely switch out without fear of it getting a DD on the switch. If tanking 2 Dragon Claws is a concern, 248/204/56 Bold can deal with that. Either way, Rotom-H has a chance to win both Zard without guessing, where Rotom-W loses to both.

 

[mrglass]

Are you guys accepting nominations at this point?

If so, I nominate Lanturn for D Rank. With its rare access to Heal Bell and Volt Switch, as well as it's fantastic synergy with physically defensive flying types like Mandibuzz and Skarmory, Lanturn can fill the niche role of a combined cleric and pivot really well. Scald notably prevents many other pokemon from being able to hard counter it. It shouldn't be any higher, as below is pretty much it's only viable set, and it's defensive stats could be better, but it's a set that can be quite potent on the right teams. Mega-Ampharos also does this pretty well, but it takes up a mega slot.

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 216 Def / 40 HP / 252 SDef
IVs: 0 Atk
Calm nature
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell

Of important note, it is able to wall most relevant electric types in OU
252 SpA Manectric Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 36-43 (8.9 - 10.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 35-42 (8.7 - 10.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Sludge Bomb vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 107-126 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 20.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 122-144 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 72-86 (17.9 - 21.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Mood4food77]

do not use lanturn, you use it once and then you realize that rotom-w will do everything better and be much more useful
even mega ampharos is more useful than lanturn

it does not deserve a rank

 

[mrglass]

do not use lanturn, you use it once and then you realize that rotom-w will do everything better and be much more useful
even mega ampharos is more useful than lanturn

it does not deserve a rank

Rotom has an Electric immunity, Heal Bell, and Scald? That's news to me!

The set I mentioned is the only viable set BECAUSE Rotom-W exists. The set I mentioned focuses on the handful of differentiating factors Lanturn has from Rotom-W. I've been using it for months, and there is literally no other pokemon that can do what I mentioned, save for Mega Ampharos, who, as I mentioned, takes up a Mega Slot you probably want to save for something else.

 

[Karxrida]

Are you guys accepting nominations at this point?

If so, I nominate Lanturn for D Rank. With its rare access to Heal Bell and Volt Switch, as well as it's fantastic synergy with physically defensive flying types like Mandibuzz and Skarmory, Lanturn can fill the niche role of a combined cleric and pivot really well. Scald notably prevents many other pokemon from being able to hard counter it. It shouldn't be any higher, as below is pretty much it's only viable set, and it's defensive stats could be better, but it's a set that can be quite potent on the right teams. Mega-Ampharos also does this pretty well, but it takes up a mega slot.

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 216 Def / 40 HP / 252 SDef
IVs: 0 Atk
Calm nature
- Volt Switch
- Scald
- Thunder Wave
- Heal Bell

Of important note, it is able to wall most relevant electric types in OU
252 SpA Manectric Flamethrower vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 36-43 (8.9 - 10.7%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 35-42 (8.7 - 10.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Sludge Bomb vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 107-126 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 20.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 122-144 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 40 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 72-86 (17.9 - 21.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

Quick question: why is Thundurus using Sludge Bomb when it can just Taunt or set up free Nasty Plots on you? Or use Knock Off?

 

[Mowtom]

Rotom has an Electric immunity, Heal Bell, and Scald? That's news to me!

The set I mentioned is the only viable set BECAUSE Rotom-W exists. The set I mentioned focuses on the handful of differentiating factors Lanturn has from Rotom-W. I've been using it for months, and there is literally no other pokemon that can do what I mentioned, save for Mega Ampharos, who, as I mentioned, takes up a Mega Slot you probably want to save for something else.

This is exactly what people are complaining about. People bring up a bad mon, say "nothing else can do this!", and claim that that is enough to give it a rank. I can only think of one Pokemon with literally no niche, and that is Phione, as Manaphy can do literally everything Phione wants to do, and do it better. Every other Pokmeon has something that makes it stand out. The question with Lanturn is "Is that tiny niche worth using?" The answer is overwhelmingly no. It may be useful if you build around it, but not enough to give it a rank. If Lanturn ever makes this list, I will become a strong proponent of Donphan for D, as it is more useful than Lanturn.

 

[Nog]

Lanturn is not getting ranked, don't discuss it

 

[mrglass]

This is exactly what people are complaining about. People bring up a bad mon, say "nothing else can do this!", and claim that that is enough to give it a rank. I can only think of one Pokemon with literally no niche, and that is Phione, as Manaphy can do literally everything Phione wants to do, and do it better. Every other Pokmeon has something that makes it stand out. The question with Lanturn is "Is that tiny niche worth using?" The answer is overwhelmingly no. It may be useful if you build around it, but not enough to give it a rank. If Lanturn ever makes this list, I will become a strong proponent of Donphan for D, as it is more useful than Lanturn.

And my argument is that it's tiny niche is ABSOLUTELY worth using. It's not a matter of building a team around it, it's a matter of having Skarmory and needing a cleric/pivot on your team. That's not a particularly complicated niche. So yes, it's absolutely worth using.

Quick question: why is Thundurus using Sludge Bomb when it can just Taunt or set up free Nasty Plots on you? Or use Knock Off?

To be honest, I've never used Thundurus, so I just quickly looked up it's attacking options. But regardless, Lanturn's not supposed to stay in on Thundurus or anything. Just absorb a blow, do it's job of healing status, and pivot you to a pokemon that can take it out.

 

[Red Cat]

To be honest, I've never used Thundurus, so I just quickly looked up it's attacking options. But regardless, Lanturn's not supposed to stay in on Thundurus or anything. Just absorb a blow, do it's job of healing status, and pivot you to a pokemon that can take it out.

If you don't know what Thundurus's main sets are, then you should play more or get higher on the ladder before you nominate things to get ranked.

 

[mrglass]

If you don't know what Thundurus's main sets are, then you should play more or get higher on the ladder before you nominate things to get ranked.

I've seen Thundurus use Taunt and Sludge Bomb in the past, and in a match I generally remember those things. I didn't put that much thought in adding Thundurus, I instead just quickly added some calculations to support my nominations.

As I explained, it still doesn't take much damage from Thundurus, and can easily do it's job against it as a pivot or Cleric.

 

[Stef0w]

All these outclassed pokes really just needs to get booted straight off the list.

Honestly, Poke's like blissey, salamence, and mega banette are so outclassed it hurts.

Just because something is forced into OU, should not mean it deserves a rank.


Also, We really should just get rid of the D-rank, none of these pokes are remotely decent in the current metagame, and their niche's are thin enough to breath through.

All these pokemon do is bait out discussion of other shit-mon's.

Also these niche-within-niche's pokemon needs to go away.

Having defog is niche, defog with scald can be argued as a niche.

No way in hell do we need two pokes with scald and defog, both of which are complete shit.

 

[Jaguar360]

Surely Zoroark deserves a rank though, right? It is frail and U-turn weak, and base 105 speed just isn't enough sometimes with Keldeo, Terrakion and Thundurus-I roaming about the tier, but it performs surprisingly well in OU and has a niche that no other Pokemon can really claim. Illusion gives it a rather nice advantage in battle, and it is far from useless after its cover is gone (and that won't happen easily since Zoroark shouldn't be taking any type of hit). Sucker Punch gives it utility throughout the entire game, U-turn lets it escaped unharmed and distinguishes itself from competing Dark types, and Knock Off is a powerful, spammable move with great utility. I'll quote my post from two pages ago:

Zoroark @ Life Orb
Ability: Illusion
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Flamethrower/Focus Blast
- U-turn/Focus Blast/Extrasensory
I'm actually going to propose Zoroark for C+ rank. Zoroark sits in a pretty good speed tier at 105 speed and is a great mixed attacker. It posses STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch coming off of 105 Attack and is easily able to free moveslots to hit the tier's physical walls like Skarmory and Ferrothorn. While it sounds outclassed by Bisharp, they play quite differently, as Zoroark is much faster, has a wider movepool, has Illusion and can scout with U-turn, in exchange for the raw power and Defog/Intimidate discouraging from Bisharp. The closest thing to Zoroark in the tier is probably Mega Absol, who can have similar coverage and is faster and stronger on the physical side, but has to Mega Evolve to get that speed and lacks Illusion and U-turn (and that makes all the difference). Illusion is something no other Pokemon has and, if played right, can be very beneficial. Even with Team Preview, Zoroark can easily disguise itself as a lead or a Pokemon capable of carrying similar moves, such as Landorus-I, Mawile, Tornadus, Bisharp, Mew and more. Zoroark's ability to force switches, wallbreak, revenge kill and scout warrant a C+ rank for it in OU.

I still support it for C+ rank, though C rank or any rank at all would be fine for it for now.

 

[Hoole]

And my argument is that it's tiny niche is ABSOLUTELY worth using. It's not a matter of building a team around it, it's a matter of having Skarmory and needing a cleric/pivot on your team. That's not a particularly complicated niche. So yes, it's absolutely worth using.



To be honest, I've never used Thundurus, so I just quickly looked up it's attacking options. But regardless, Lanturn's not supposed to stay in on Thundurus or anything. Just absorb a blow, do it's job of healing status, and pivot you to a pokemon that can take it out.

So we are going rank every mon that has a tiny niche?

 

[MilkyWay]

For those of you who saw my post joking about nominating Phione for B- before it got deleted (I was making fun of all the random lower tier nominations), dont take it the wrong way. I actually believe that we should rank many lower tier mons and not just remove everything that "isnt the greatest" from the list altogether. I mean, this is the viability ranking thread, right? So anything and everything that is viable and has a decent niche should be ranked. That's why we have divisions such as S, A, B etc. to show what is better. To remove many of the pokemon in the lower ranks just because they arent top threats is stupid and not the point of this thread. As long as these pokemon have some certain niche that would make them useful on a certain team is reason enough to rank them. Take Manatine for example. Sure, it might be outclassed for the most part by Skarmory or the Lati@s. However, Manatine has a few perks over them. For one, it can wall all common Keldeo sets and can even switch into pretty much every common move. The Lati@s both get beat by specs Icy Wind which is standard for Keldeo. Secondly, Manatine has Scald and Defog, which means that it can scare many hazard setters out (Hippowdon, Tyranitar, Heatran, both Landorus's, Garchomp, Terrakion, Mamoswine, etc.) besides Ferrothorn and proceed to defog. Finally, it doesnt lose to the Zard Y, Keldeo, Bisharp cores as it walls the first two and isnt pursuit trapped by Bisharp (if your team happens to struggle with this). In general, most teams are better off going with one of the Lati@s or Skarmory. However, Manatine has its uses over them for some teams which makes it perfectly viable and thus deserving of a rank. Notice how Manatine is ranked C- while the other three are A, A, and A- respectively. That means the viablity ranking thread shows that Manatine is viable (which is true), but you are usually better off using the pokemon I mentioned before as your defogger (which is also true). When taking this all into account, we probably have to rank Donphan and possibly others in the future somewhere as they do have a decent niche in the current metagame. I'm not going to elaborate on Donphan, but see Agent Gibbs post a page or two back for a good explanation.

Many people have recently been upset with many of the C and D rankings, some argue that they are flawed and others want to remove many of those pokemon altogether. I have already covered the latter part, but as for the first part I agree that there are some flaws. I honestly cant see how Blissey and Magnezone are in the same rank as Blissey is almost completely outclassed while Magnezone faces almost no competition and performs its role exceptionally. Rather than complain about this and the lower rankings altogether I'm simply going to nominate Blissey for D rank as it is almost completely outclassed and Magnezone for C+ rank because it is a lot more viable than anything in C rank (and probably C+ too). Another thing I find that people say is that Pokemon X is better than Pokemon Y so it should be a rank higher. For example, I could say Arcanine is generally better than Moltres as they perform similar roles but Arcanine is generally superior (i actually wouldnt object to Arcanine moving up to C but thats not the point). But does this argument really justify Arcanine moving up? Not really, as we have a lot more pokemon than ranks so some pokemon are gonna have to be in the same rank as pokemon they are slightly better than. Just because Aegislash is generally better than Landorus doesnt mean Landorus should go to A+.

Anyways, I believe that we should rank all pokemon that have a usable niche, there is a reason we have C and D ranks and we have always done this. Also rather than destroy the lower rankings and complain we should fix them, as Magnezone is clearly way more viable than Blissey.

 

[Clone]

Why should we rank stuff that the average Smogonite would never use?

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

So anything and everything that is viable and has a decent niche should be ranked. That's why we have divisions such as S, A, B etc. to show what is better. To remove many of the pokemon in the lower ranks just because they arent top threats is stupid and not the point of this thread. As long as these pokemon have some certain niche that would make them useful on a certain team is reason enough to rank them.

No, that's really not what we should be doing. I could probably think of a hundred things that have "some certain niche;" things that no serious player would ever use or things whose niche is so utterly microscopic that they're never going to see use on a serious team. "Some certain niche" would also include pokemon who are just way too flawed to be successful in OU. Almost every fully evolved pokemon has a unique combination of traits that differentiates themselves from other pokemon, and sometimes those traits are very useful (e.g. Moxie+STAB Brave Bird+STAB Sucker Punch, STAB Sheer Force Flare Blitz, Defog and Taunt+130 Spe) but this does not mean they're good or have an appreciable level of efficacy in OU.

Instead of chucking stuff into C/D because some calcs and theorymon say that it's sort of maybe good in specific scenarios, possibly, like what was recently done with Donphan and Lanturn, I really think the minimum requirement for an unranked mon to be nominated is a handful of replays of it being effective in a match between two competent players ._.

Why should we rank stuff that the average Smogonite would never use?

Cause outliers exist. And your "average Smogonite" rarely ever uses anything in B- or below.

 

[Clone]

Cause outliers exist. And your "average Smogonite" rarely ever uses anything in B- or below.

And for good reason. I mean, there are some things like Alomomomomola that have seen tour usage, but when would a competent player ever consider using Escavalier or Obamasnow or other in a serious match? I cant think of anything. I think there needs to be a clear cut line drawn that separates "useable" and "This mon has such a small niche that I can use him one only one specific team so he should be C-/D rank."

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

And for good reason. I mean, there are some things like Alomomomomola that have seen tour usage, but when would a competent player ever consider using Escavalier or Obamasnow or other in a serious match? I cant think of anything. I think there needs to be a clear cut line drawn that separates "useable" and "This mon has such a small niche that I can use him one only one specific team so he should be C-/D rank."

Yes, and Escavalier and Mega Obama are two things that really should honestly not be there; while things like Magnezone, Goodra, Exploud, Omastar, and Cresselia, among others, do have a reason to be ranked, even if they have low usage on the ladder, zero usage in WCoP or are really niche.

The C rankings need to be cleaned up, but stuff shouldn't be thrown out just because "your average person would never use it." Hopefully Nog will post his super-awesome-really-huge-ass-post soon.

 

[Nog]

Still getting opinions from tour players and others whom I trust, will post soonish once everyone has weighed in.

 

[MilkyWay]

No, that's really not what we should be doing. I could probably think of a hundred things that have "some certain niche;" things that no serious player would ever use or things whose niche is so utterly microscopic that they're never going to see use on a serious team. "Some certain niche" would also include pokemon who are just way too flawed to be successful in OU. Almost every fully evolved pokemon has a unique combination of traits that differentiates themselves from other pokemon, and sometimes those traits are very useful (e.g. Moxie+STAB Brave Bird+STAB Sucker Punch, STAB Sheer Force Flare Blitz, Defog and Taunt+130 Spe) but this does not mean they're good or have an appreciable level of efficacy in OU.

Instead of chucking stuff into C/D because some calcs and theorymon say that it's sort of maybe good in specific scenarios, possibly, like what was recently done with Donphan and Lanturn, I really think the minimum requirement for an unranked mon to be nominated is a handful of replays of it being effective in a match between two competent players.

I agree with you for the most part and to clarify what I mean by "certain niche", i mean a niche that is worth using and that is actually effective, not a niche that is just unique to a specific pokemon. Certain was a poor word choice, effective niche would convey what I mean.

 

[Red Cat]

I agree with you for the most part and to clarify what I mean by "certain niche", i mean a niche that is worth using and that is actually effective, not a niche that is just unique to a specific pokemon. Certain was a poor word choice, effective niche would convey what I mean.

We do rank everything which has an effective niche. You just have to show a Pokemon being effective in a few replays between good players. So far, we haven't seen any good replays involving Donphan, Lanturn, Zoroark, etc. being effective, so we consider them not effective in OU until someone shows us otherwise.

 

[acestriker19]

Do I have to jump in and defend Escavalier again... Escavalier is an excellent AV user that is partially outclassed by Scizor but Escavalier is stronger and has a ground move to smash heatran on switch in. I've used Escavalier on teams that broke 1800+ on the ladder it deserves to keep C rank because unlike most mons on there it actually has a niche, use it before you knock it.

 

[mrglass]

So we are going rank every mon that has a tiny niche?

No we should rank mons that have niches that make them worth using in some situations. Hence D tier.

 

[Clone]

Do I have to jump in and defend Escavalier again... Escavalier is an excellent AV user that is partially outclassed by Scizor but Escavalier is stronger and has a ground move to smash heatran on switch in. I've used Escavalier on teams that broke 1800+ on the ladder it deserves to keep C rank because unlike most mons on there it actually has a niche, use it before you knock it.

Ive used him once. And the whole time I was wishing I had Scizor in his place. Escavalier may be bulkier and a decent user of AV, but his speed is abysmal. Literally nothing in the tier bar Shuckle outslows him, aside from Relaxed Ferrothorn. With that being said, he suffers from Aegislasg syndrom - in order to deal a hit he has to take one. Hes easily worn down throughout the match and has to rely on the unreliable Mega Horn for a Bug STAB, while Scizor has U-Turn, as well as a Technician boosted Priority move. The only useful "niche" he has over Scizor is Drill Run. Okay, thats fine. But one move isnt gonna save an otherwise shitty mon (this does not mean anything for lower tiers where hes actually good) from being good. And besides, if heatran is really that much of a problem, Scizor can run Super Power, which also smashes Heatran on the switch: 252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 410-484 (106.2 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO. And just in case youre running AV Scizor: 252+ Atk Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 274-324 (70.9 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Heatran is basically crippled for the entire match thanks to no recovery bar Leftovers.

I have tried him, and I dont see what he has over Scizor as a bulky Bug/Steel type.