Metagame Misdreavus = dead, Fletchling = alive

[Caledrith]

I'm going to agree with fatty here, fletchling is a godly cleaner, however, I believe SubLO Abra is the best sweeper/late game cleaner, but with u-turn, Fletch is able to keep momentum as Fatty said, which is ridiculous. I think what makes Fletch so special though, is the glue Pokemon that people use on their teams such as Croagunk as Fatty mentioned, or Foongus, are absolutely destroyed by Fletchling. However, people have failed to mention in this thread, what is in my opinion, the best check to Fletchling, just as it was to Murkrow, Shieldon. This Pokemon aint even NEAR useless.

Ur Fletchling Sux (Shieldon) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 196 HP / 20 Atk / 56 Def / 20 SpA / 212 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Metal Burst
- Ice Beam/Stone Edge
- Earthquake/Fire Blast

Bar a switch-in on a Hidden Power Ground (which does only 72%, 93% of the time), you can ALWAYS kill Fletchling, and this Pokemon is still hella useful against other Pokemon as well, and even acts as a Stealth Rock setter. Also, if you run Stone Edge with a Postive attack nature, it OHKOs with this EV spread. 75% otherwise.

20+ Atk Shieldon Stone Edge vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 24-30 (104.3 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
20 SpA Shieldon Ice Beam vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Fletchling Hidden Power Ground vs. 196 HP / 212+ SpD Shieldon: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 196 HP / 56 Def Shieldon: 1-1 (4.5 - 4.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever (LOL I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS RESPONSE IN A CALC)


Edit: Don't hate this set just because its The Master of LC (Naykart)'s favorite pokemon... ;)

 

[Eren Yeagar]

I'm going to agree with fatty here, fletchling is a godly revenge killer, overtaking Sashbra for that title, however, I believe SubLO Abra is the best sweeper/late game cleaner, but with u-turn, Fletch is able to revenge kill, but also keep momentum as Fatty said, which is ridiculous. I think what makes Fletch so special though, is the glue Pokemon that people use on their teams such as Croagunk as Fatty mentioned, or Foongus, are absolutely destroyed by Fletchling. However, people have failed to mention in this thread, what is in my opinion, the best check to Fletchling, just as it was to Murkrow, Shieldon. This Pokemon aint even NEAR useless.

Ur Fletchling Sux (Shieldon) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 196 HP / 20 Atk / 56 Def / 20 SpA / 212 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Metal Burst
- Ice Beam/Stone Edge
- Earthquake/Fire Blast

Bar a switch-in on a Hidden Power Ground (which does only 72%, 93% of the time), you can ALWAYS kill Fletchling, and this Pokemon is still hella useful against other Pokemon as well, and even acts as a Stealth Rock setter. Also, if you run Stone Edge with a Postive attack nature, it OHKOs with this EV spread. 75% otherwise.

20+ Atk Shieldon Stone Edge vs. 156 HP / 92 Def Fletchling: 24-30 (104.3 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
20 SpA Shieldon Ice Beam vs. 156 HP / 52 SpD Fletchling: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0- SpA Fletchling Hidden Power Ground vs. 196 HP / 212+ SpD Shieldon: 12-16 (54.5 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 196 HP / 56 Def Shieldon: 1-1 (4.5 - 4.5%) -- possibly the worst move ever (LOL I'VE NEVER SEEN THIS RESPONSE IN A CALC)

OH MY GOD,this thing went right through my mind.I would like to add on shieldon Caledrith. Shieldon is the best fletch check and counter to date.Aron is one of the best too but shieldon has way more defense surpassing heatran and more special defence.The downside to shieldon is mienfoo. Mienfoo is a common partner with fletchling and can switch right into it with u-turn momentum to mienfoo and take a special attack or physiccal attack super well due to shieldon's lackluster attack stats.But that shouldn't be too big of an issue since you most likely run a counter to mienfoo to partner with shieldon. Plus, shieldon can do more than wall fletchling entirely,it can take down/wall many common threats such as pawniard,archen,and magnemite. I love shieldon and I'll definitely recommend it for a team having trouble with certain threats of this metagame.

Edit: Shieldon should have Eviolite-not bj imo,but bj is viable.

 

[fatty]

revenge killers and cleaners are one in the same, although one is usually more oriented towards sweeping with coverage and the ability to switch moves, while the other usually dons a choice item or a strong priority. the fact is that most cleaners, which are inherently fast, are just automatic revenge killers, and when that cleaner has a particularly strong priority attack in acrobatics, it makes it a great revenge killer. you don't have to ohko to be a revenge killer, it's never been that way in lc. priority is a godsend in lc, and fletch uses it the best. i mean you could also argue that what good is a dedicated revenge killer if you can only use it once per match as per sash abra, when fletch can at least be usable 4 times at worst due to sr.

i really only meant that it performs a variety of roles almost near perfection.

 

[Rowan]

Caledrith, shieldon is wrecked by diglett one of fletch's most common partners

edit: @ below, yeah but u-turn breaks sturdy, which is one of the reasons why fletchdig is so good

 

[Caledrith]

Rowan, fair enough, but if it gets metal burst off, Diglett is done too.

 

[RotomPoison]

Just want to say that I had absolutely no experience in LC before laddering for this suspect test, and that the team I used to get reqs had both a Misdreavus and Fletchling, so while my opinion may only be based on ~70 battles I still think I have a basic understanding of the metagame.

1) Is Misdreavus / Fletchling broken?

Misdreavus - I'm just going to start by saying Misdreavus is an amazing Pokemon. Ghost is an amazing typing offensively, and it even has 3 immunities. Since Shadow Ball does so much already, only missing out on Pawniard, 2HKOing bulky Mienfoo, 2HKOing Foongus, and a few less relevant Pokemon. The problem being it has access to Dazzling Gleam to beat Mienfoo that try to switch in, Hidden Power Fighting to beat Pawniard, and Substitute to pretty much stop Foongus as well, meaning it has no truly reliable counters. Its checks also lose if it happens to get out with a Substitute up, and quite possibly a Nasty Plot. Misdreavus also has access to an excellent Speed tier of 19, only being outsped by (unboosted) Voltorb, Diglett, and Elekid. Voltorb and Elekid can not OHKO and Diglett can't even trap it due to Levitate. I have also seen instances where my own Berry Juice Misdreavus was able to Substitute to the point it wasted its Berry Juice and then lived the opposing Knock Off, and was then able to eliminate its "check" because of it. Misdreavus is broken, and just needs to get out of LC.

Fletchling is not as simple. It has viable checks and counter which it has no truly reliable way of beating, like Chinchou. While an argument can be made for "these checks can easily be worn down" which is entirely true, many other Pokemon have this same flaw and are completely viable. It is also not as centralizing as Misdreavus, as it can not beat its own checks without taking a ton of damage, if it wins at all. It can not run all of Acrobatics, Overheat, U-turn, Roost, Steel Wing, and Swords Dance. While close, I do not believe Fletchling is broken.

2) Is Misdreavus / Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?

While irrelevant for Misdreavus, the answer is still yes

Fletchling however, as someone new to this tier myself, I have to say no.

3) Is a combination of 1 and 2 deterring individuals from playing Little Cup?

Again irrelevant for Misdreavus, but as someone new to LC, it does make LC a lot less fun.

For Fletchling, I again want to say no, as I still find LC a fun metagame with Fletchling around.

tl;dr version

BAN MISSY FREE BURD.

 

[Camden]

Rowan, fair enough, but if it gets metal burst off, Diglett is done too.

That implies that Shieldon is at 100% HP, because otherwise lolbye.

 

[Vileman]

Caledrith i'd really like to know what poke is that checking other than fletchling, as you said its useful against other mons but cant think of a single one its walling/dealing damage to other than the predictable, pretty much only thing it can do metal burst with sturdy. Otherwise it just shows how fletchling is forcing people to run bad mons who otherwise wouldnt even have a niche not even to mention that any kind of hazards will instantly leave it open for anything to kill it as it doesnt even has the added bulk of eviolite.
On my thought on the subjects: first off i'd like to say that i have not read all of the thread so apologies if i repeat ideas and stuff.

Misdreavus: Bulky, fast, strong mon who has a huge moveset to abuse, making it extremely unpredictable as if you guess wrong you might switch your usual counter into sub+NP with hp fighting meaning your counter/check will lose. Its important to take this things bulk into consideration as most mons who can deal good damage quickly, are usually easy to revenge kill with priority, but as missy is bulky not many attacks are going to ohko, meaning you have to play extremely careful around missy to not get wrecked by it. It can also work as a support for other mons to sweep, by luring different mons with destiny bond or unussual sets/attacks like the one i mentioned earlier or stuff like hp fire to lure ferro and help carvhana sweep, so missy can work as pretty much anything: support, sweeper, revenge killer(scarf is underated), wallbreaker, tank, defensive(althought uncommon, will-o with pain split can be annoying) and i think thats it, if im not forgeting more. I find this mon to be too good for the current metagame and i would like it to be banned.

Fletchling: Fletchling is probably the most controversial mon. Fletchling althought it has a lot of moves, most of the gimmick attacks it has are limited and weak, as his special attack is rather poor, but its worth noting that it can get past his counters with this most of the time, but as it cant run all the moves it would like to something will be hard-walling it; but with the right support (aka digglet) it can easily sweep late game after his checks are weakened. The problem and what makes fletchling better than the usual late game cleaner, its the fact that it ahs a STAB, strong priority move which means it will not be getting revenge killed by a scarfer or common revenge killers, so its harder to stop that usual late game cleaners. All in all, fletchling is a really, really good mon that its not in the broken level of mons like gligar and meditite but i find it to be uber worthy.

 

[Alowe282]

Fletch Is For Noobs (Aron) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
This thing is a hard counter as well as a very good check say u were in with foo against foo it sd on prediction u can switch into aron and kill take an over heat/hp grass since sturdy and can get the BJ heath back

Fletch is bum (Tirtouga) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Aqua Jet
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
Same concept but can easily sweep with sturdy juice shell smash

so fletch is not as ban worthy as i thought but is still ban worthy
i am also known as ChoiceEspeon And LifeOrbUmbreon

 

[Fiend]

Fletch Is For Noobs (Aron) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
This thing is a hard counter as well as a very good check say u were in with foo against foo it sd on prediction u can switch into aron and kill take an over heat/hp grass since sturdy and can get the BJ heath back

Fletch is bum (Tirtouga) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Aqua Jet
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
Same concept but can easily sweep with sturdy juice shell smash

so fletch is not as ban worthy as i thought but is still ban worthy
i am also known as ChoiceEspeon And LifeOrbUmbreon

Okay, so we have something that loses to HP Grass Fletch after SR (Tirt), and a mostly terrible mon (Aron). A check + a counter; that is what you listed. I have already said how Tirt loses to HP Grass Fletch so it is a check, though it is a solid one. But using Aron to counter Fletch is unhealthy. I honestly don't want to be pigeon holed into running something almost worthless outside of a Flying check. It also loses to FletchDig, just like Chin so with prediction it loses. Swirlx also pidgeon holed us into running things like Skrelp-but when was the last thing you saw this? Both are (mostly) irrelevant mons, only used to counter top tier threats. Please explain how using a Stealth Rocker (which loses to Drilbur and EQ Archen) to counter Fletchling is really viable. It can set SR and kill a poorly played Fletch, nothing else. (Also, getting into the realm of Natural Gift, if you switch in on Acro, you lose. But I have never seen anyone use Natural Gift, so lets not consider this too greatly.)

 

[Yagura]

Fletch Is For Noobs (Aron) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
This thing is a hard counter as well as a very good check say u were in with foo against foo it sd on prediction u can switch into aron and kill take an over heat/hp grass since sturdy and can get the BJ heath back

Fletch is bum (Tirtouga) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Aqua Jet
- Stone Edge
- Waterfall
Same concept but can easily sweep with sturdy juice shell smash

so fletch is not as ban worthy as i thought but is still ban worthy
i am also known as ChoiceEspeon And LifeOrbUmbreon

Excuse me but it doesn't make sense to post two counters of Fletchling (which are clearly not the best around and they both get destroyed by Diglett if either rocks or spikes are up) then say that it's ban worthy, at least if you think it's worth a ban tell us why it is.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Hello friends! I am back from retreat! Yay! It was actually better than I expected. :)

AND HOLY CRAP SO MANY POSTS! JUST WOW. I did not expect this many posts when I got back... Well now I have to go trough and read it all, so ughhh. I skimmed over it all quickly, but I will go back and read more in depth and post responses to that as I go. For now I would just like to start with this though:

As for me, I am not going to say anything about Misdreavus, but in regards to Fletchling: am I the only one that has had games where it is just completely useless? I am not trying to sway opinion in either direction, but I wanted to bring that up. I have had games where Fletchling just is 100% shut down because of my opponent's Archen, and I have had games where the combination of Chinchou and Pawniard made things impossible for it as well. I have never used Fletchling + Diglett in tandem, but there are still Pokemon that Diglett cannot trap that really hurt Fletchling (Archen, Tirtouga, Pawniard with rocks breaking Diglett's sash, Slowpoke). Like, I've seen some crazy Fletchling sweeps but that is primarily from teams that were just super underprepared for it. I don't feel comfortable with saying it can sweep through teams when there are so many checks for it, and when it requires entire teams of support (such as Zigzagoon) to be crazy effective.

What do you think? Do you guys think the number of checks it has along with the ease in including its checks in teambuilding make up for how strong its priority moves are and how powerful of a revenge killer it is? I know that's basically what the discussion has been, but I wanted to contribute slightly as well.

Good work guys, keep it up!

I skimmed through the posts like I said, and I didn't see any responses to this. Maybe I just missed them, and if so I'm sorry.

I totally agree with blarajan though. When you think about the banned LC Pokemon, how many of them are totally useless in a fair number of battles? Pretty much none of them. I know that I find Misdreavus to be useful in every battle I play, and it is always performing its job. However, with Fletchling, I find that probably one out of every three or four games it does nothing; literally nothing besides be death fodder. So many teams just have Pokemon that are naturally resistant to Fletchling and are already good, so often times I can never use Acrobatics with fear of them switching in a resist. Pawniard, Porygon, Magnemite, and Spritzee are all examples of Pokemon that are good in their own ways and find spots on teams, and then you add on top of that fact that they check Fletchling and one team could have anywhere from two to four checks. I have even thought about switching to another Pokemon in place of Fletchling, because even though it is great in some battles, all those battles that it does nothing is just horrible. I've only had about three or four Fletchling sweeps against good players in the last, I don't know, long, long time. Even if you take out one check, by the end of the battle there is generally one left. It even has trouble cleaning often times because while it beats one Pokemon, it is totally walled by the other remaining Pokemon. I think that this trait of being useless in a fair chunk of battles makes it easily non-banworthy, as a banned Pokemon has to have the ability to be great, or at least perform its role in essentially every battle. I think that this is also another trait that goes towards Misdreavus being banned, as it is virtually always able to perform its role.

 

[Slashari]

Hello friends! I am back from retreat! Yay! It was actually better than I expected. :)

AND HOLY CRAP SO MANY POSTS! JUST WOW. I did not expect this many posts when I got back... Well now I have to go trough and read it all, so ughhh. I skimmed over it all quickly, but I will go back and read more in depth and post responses to that as I go. For now I would just like to start with this though:

I skimmed through the posts like I said, and I didn't see any responses to this. Maybe I just missed them, and if so I'm sorry.

I totally agree with blarajan though. When you think about the banned LC Pokemon, how many of them are totally useless in a fair number of battles? Pretty much none of them. I know that I find Misdreavus to be useful in every battle I play, and it is always performing its job. However, with Fletchling, I find that probably one out of every three or four games it does nothing; literally nothing besides be death fodder. So many teams just have Pokemon that are naturally resistant to Fletchling and are already good, so often times I can never use Acrobatics with fear of them switching in a resist. Pawniard, Porygon, Magnemite, and Spritzee are all examples of Pokemon that are good in their own ways and find spots on teams, and then you add on top of that fact that they check Fletchling and one team could have anywhere from two to four checks. I have even though about switching to another Pokemon in place of Fletchling, because even though it is great in some battles, all those battles that it does nothing is just horrible. Even if you take out one check, by the end of the battle there is generally one left. It just has a hard time cleaning due to it's many checks. I've only had about three or four Fletchling sweeps against good players in the last, I don't know, long, long time. It even has trouble cleaning often because while beats one Pokemon, it is totally walled by the other remaining Pokemon. I think that this trait of being useless in a fair chunk of battles makes it easily non-banworthy, as a banned Pokemon has to have the ability to be great, or at least perform its role in essentially every battle. I think that this is also another trait that goes towards Misdreavus being banned, as it is virtually always able to perform its role.

I agree with you Aaron. Fletchling doesn't have the raw power to muscle past checks, so it's really reliant on team support and Gale Wings for priority Acrobatics. When the opposing team has a lot of checks, it's really hard for Fletch to function well, making it dead weight since if it can't kill stuff, it's pretty useless in other roles.

On the other hand, Missy's coverage options don't really detract from its overall performance and its STAB is arguably more spammable than Acrobatics. With Misdreavus, mispredicting isn't as deadly as it is for Fletchling since it has considerably more bulk. Missy also has fewer viable checks, and Pursuit trappers cause a lot of 50/50s, since scarf Pawniard can't KO with Pursuit if Misdreavus stays in. In addition to all of this Misdreavus is a lot less predictable than Fletchling, since it can run a multitude of equally good sets.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Missy also has fewer viable checks, and Pursuit trappers cause a lot of 50/50s, since scarf Pawniard can't KO with Pursuit if Misdreavus stays in.

It also doesn't always kill if Misdreavus switches out, as long as it holds an Eviolite haha. :)

 

[sparktrain]

It also doesn't always kill if Misdreavus switches out, as long as it holds an Eviolite haha. :)

236 Atk Pawniard Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 12-14 (54.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

uh yeah that's a KO if Missy switches.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

236 Atk Pawniard Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 12-14 (54.5 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

uh yeah that's a KO if Missy switches.

O. It's just I have survived numerous Pursuits... maybe they weren't running Attack EVs then, but I just assumed they were. Weird... sorry sparktrain, that's my bad. I should have checked first, and I thought about doing so, but meh.

EDIT: Some check were done, and this was the result of a 80 BP Pursuit.
236 Atk Pawniard Pursuit vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
I knew I survived lol.

 

[Fiend]

Hello friends! I am back from retreat! Yay! It was actually better than I expected. :)

AND HOLY CRAP SO MANY POSTS! JUST WOW. I did not expect this many posts when I got back... Well now I have to go trough and read it all, so ughhh. I skimmed over it all quickly, but I will go back and read more in depth and post responses to that as I go. For now I would just like to start with this though:

I skimmed through the posts like I said, and I didn't see any responses to this. Maybe I just missed them, and if so I'm sorry.

I totally agree with blarajan though. When you think about the banned LC Pokemon, how many of them are totally useless in a fair number of battles? Pretty much none of them. I know that I find Misdreavus to be useful in every battle I play, and it is always performing its job. However, with Fletchling, I find that probably one out of every three or four games it does nothing; literally nothing besides be death fodder. So many teams just have Pokemon that are naturally resistant to Fletchling and are already good, so often times I can never use Acrobatics with fear of them switching in a resist. Pawniard, Porygon, Magnemite, and Spritzee are all examples of Pokemon that are good in their own ways and find spots on teams, and then you add on top of that fact that they check Fletchling and one team could have anywhere from two to four checks. I have even thought about switching to another Pokemon in place of Fletchling, because even though it is great in some battles, all those battles that it does nothing is just horrible. I've only had about three or four Fletchling sweeps against good players in the last, I don't know, long, long time. Even if you take out one check, by the end of the battle there is generally one left. It even has trouble cleaning often times because while it beats one Pokemon, it is totally walled by the other remaining Pokemon. I think that this trait of being useless in a fair chunk of battles makes it easily non-banworthy, as a banned Pokemon has to have the ability to be great, or at least perform its role in essentially every battle. I think that this is also another trait that goes towards Misdreavus being banned, as it is virtually always able to perform its role.

Define totally useless. Also, how useful something is depends on the caliber of your opponent and your own personal skill level. While much of the tier can be used to some effect, things like Aron have very small niches limiting how useful they actually are. Sure, Togepi has the ability to Paraflinch you to death, though would you really call that useful. It loses to so many things in the current meta and really can't switch into neutral hits. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate of using uncommon or even outright unused mons, but that doesn't mean I can ignore the fact that certain mon can't be considered viable in higher levels of play. Hell I even struggle to use things such as Munna or Ralts on the lowest portion of the ladder against blatant joke teams.

I agree with you Aaron. Fletchling doesn't have the raw power to muscle past checks, so it's really reliant on team support and Gale Wings for priority Acrobatics. When the opposing team has a lot of checks, it's really hard for Fletch to function well, making it dead weight since if it can't kill stuff, it's pretty useless in other roles.

On the other hand, Missy's coverage options don't really detract from its overall performance and its STAB is arguably more spammable than Acrobatics. With Misdreavus, mispredicting isn't as deadly as it is for Fletchling since it has considerably more bulk. Missy also has fewer viable checks, and Pursuit trappers cause a lot of 50/50s, since scarf Pawniard can't KO with Pursuit if Misdreavus stays in. In addition to all of this Misdreavus is a lot less predictable than Fletchling, since it can run a multitude of equally good sets.

Fletchling does infact have the raw power to muscle past all of its checks (bar Archen, but even then). While it can't beat them all with one set, you tend to want to run a check for Overheat variants and a check for HP Grass variants. I laddered rather high at one point an alright team, though the reason why it did so well was Fletchling. I ran a set of Overheat / HP Grass / Acro / SD, and while not the most optimal, it really made checking Fletchling a pain. And while I know being S-rank does not mean it is broken by any means, it does simply show just how threatening Fletch is. And your point about if they have many checks to this bird, making Fletchling a dead weight is rather amusing. So depending on what you mean by a lot (I'm going to assume 3), it show how far they will go to not be swept by Fletchling. And most, granted not all, of Fletch's checks lose to Bulk Up Timburr, Croagunk, Diglett, or Drilbur. And it is near effortless to one of these on a team with Fletch, making preserving a check for Fletching really hard. And while Fletchling checks are useful outside of checking this bird, feeling like you need several of these to beat one pokemon is simply ludicrous.

 

[Fra71]

Well, I want to share my thoughts.
Ghost Waifu (Misdreavus): She has lots of viable sets, with lots of viable items and overall very good stats. Scarf/Specs/LOrb/Eviolite/BerryJuice are all viable items, and she has power, bulk and a large movepool to use them. Used wisely, she can counters... all the regular counters (lol). But, as already stated, she has a lots of sets, but only 4 viable moves at the same time. That's why, if you have a little understanding of this Ghost Waifu, you can easily scout and counter her. You CAN'T counter all the Missy's variants, but you can counter a lot of her sets in your team. Missy isn't broken, and that's why I don't want Missy banned.
Smogonbird Jr. (Fletchling): As I already stated in a conversation on the Italian channel, Fletchling is NEEDED for this meta. With banning only Fletchling, ChloroDrought and the fightspam will reign in this (for now) balanced meta. Only this Pokémon, with his priority, can stop these (not fully, in reality). And even this Pokémon, with a shallow movepool (only a 110 BP STAB priority locking Fletch's item), frail defenses and not-so-very-good typing has his checks and counters. Why ban him? It's not broken at all, he even isn't used much as Misdreavus. Nothing deserves a ban imo, at least not Fletchling.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Smogonbird Jr. (Fletchling): As I already stated in a conversation on the Italian channel, Fletchling is NEEDED for this meta. With banning only Fletchling, ChloroDrought and the fightspam will reign in this (for now) balanced meta. Only this Pokémon, with his priority, can stop these (not fully, in reality). And even this Pokémon, with a shallow movepool (only a 110 BP STAB priority locking Fletch's item), frail defenses and not-so-very-good typing has his checks and counters. Why ban him? It's not broken at all, he even isn't used much as Misdreavus. Nothing deserves a ban imo, at least not Fletchling.

Yeah it's already been brought up multiple time that the "broken shit keeping broken shit in check" arguments isn't a good one. If Fletchling is broken, we ban it. If ChloroDrought / certain Fighting-types become OP because of that, then we ban ChloroDrought and certain Fighting-types, too.

 

[The Avalanches]

Fletchling does infact have the raw power to muscle past all of its checks (bar Archen, but even then). While it can't beat them all with one set, you tend to want to run a check for Overheat variants and a check for HP Grass variants. I laddered rather high at one point an alright team, though the reason why it did so well was Fletchling. I ran a set of Overheat / HP Grass / Acro / SD, and while not the most optimal, it really made checking Fletchling a pain. And while I know being S-rank does not mean it is broken by any means, it does simply show just how threatening Fletch is. And your point about if they have many checks to this bird, making Fletchling a dead weight is rather amusing. So depending on what you mean by a lot (I'm going to assume 3), it show how far they will go to not be swept by Fletchling. And most, granted not all, of Fletch's checks lose to Bulk Up Timburr, Croagunk, Diglett, or Drilbur. And it is near effortless to one of these on a team with Fletch, making preserving a check for Fletching really hard. And while Fletchling checks are useful outside of checking this bird, feeling like you need several of these to beat one pokemon is simply ludicrous.

But it's like you said earlier, we're not in the Swirlix era where we were forced to run crap like Grimer and Koffing, which sat dormant and useless if your opponent didn't have it. All of Fletchling's checks have something to contribute, even without having to take on Fletch. Tirtouga and Archen can use its awesome array of support while still hitting pretty hard, Magnemite and Chinchou can provide momentum with Volt Switch, Magnemite also making a good Fairy-counter, and Pawniard is just Pawniard.

I don't feel like I'm bending over in order to accommodate for Fletchling. You have to pack counters for it, but hey, you have to for Pawniard and Mienfoo as well. I know that it can get around its counters with the right coverage, but so can any good offensive Pokemon; Drilbur packs Poison Jab for Cottonee or something along those lines.

I'm aware of how potent FletchDig is, but I've honestly never been too troubled by it. Whenever I see the two in team preview, I make setting the Stealth Rock that screws these two up a priority. A Diglett without its Sash intact is beaten by Tirtouga, Pawniard (Scarf or Regular), Archen, and Scarf Magnemite.

 

[Slashari]

Define totally useless. Also, how useful something is depends on the caliber of your opponent and your own personal skill level. While much of the tier can be used to some effect, things like Aron have very small niches limiting how useful they actually are. Sure, Togepi has the ability to Paraflinch you to death, though would you really call that useful. It loses to so many things in the current meta and really can't switch into neutral hits. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate of using uncommon or even outright unused mons, but that doesn't mean I can ignore the fact that certain mon can't be considered viable in higher levels of play. Hell I even struggle to use things such as Munna or Ralts on the lowest portion of the ladder against blatant joke teams.


Fletchling does infact have the raw power to muscle past all of its checks (bar Archen, but even then). While it can't beat them all with one set, you tend to want to run a check for Overheat variants and a check for HP Grass variants. I laddered rather high at one point an alright team, though the reason why it did so well was Fletchling. I ran a set of Overheat / HP Grass / Acro / SD, and while not the most optimal, it really made checking Fletchling a pain. And while I know being S-rank does not mean it is broken by any means, it does simply show just how threatening Fletch is. And your point about if they have many checks to this bird, making Fletchling a dead weight is rather amusing. So depending on what you mean by a lot (I'm going to assume 3), it show how far they will go to not be swept by Fletchling. And most, granted not all, of Fletch's checks lose to Bulk Up Timburr, Croagunk, Diglett, or Drilbur. And it is near effortless to one of these on a team with Fletch, making preserving a check for Fletching really hard. And while Fletchling checks are useful outside of checking this bird, feeling like you need several of these to beat one pokemon is simply ludicrous.

Fletchling can really only get past its checks by using coverage moves which we have already established take away from overall performance. I agree with running Overheat in place of Roost, but taking away U-turn or SD doesn't allow Fletchling to work to its full potential, at least in my opinion. Sure HP grass helps you get around Tirtouga (provided it isn't Eviolite or Sturdy is broken), but you still can't beat Chou 1 on 1. Fletchling itself is dead weight against teams that carry a lot of checks until you get them out of the way (I didn't really see a counterpoint to my original post, just you calling it amusing and that's it, sorry if I missed something :P). Personally, I find that a lot of these Fletchling checks find their way onto my teams not solely because their ability to function as a check, but for the other roles they play. Sure, Fletchling has teammates that can beat checks, but it is utterly dependent on team support to get them out of the way. It doesn't have the potential to run through teams as a lot of previous suspects have and hasn't forced us to run obscure Mons or sets.

Sorry if this came off as mean or aggressive, totally not meant to be that way since you're a cool guy. :]

 

[Superpowerdude]

Aaron's Aron

I did happen to reply to blara's point and like fatty said earlier we are forgetting about Fletchlings revenge killing potential. There are a lot of arguments going back and forth about how Fletchling has checks it struggles to get passed but no one is really taking into consideration that even before it. Attempts a sweep it is still the best revenge killer in the game with a powerful stab priority and a good offensive typing in flying too.

So even if your opponent has Archen on his team it makes it impossible to sweep until it is gone or severely weakened, yes but Fletchling is still able to come in and threaten any sweeper trying to sweep that doesn't have faster priority with a revenge kill, it can pick of weakened threats, nuke fighting types that have just taken out something, etc. In fact this is one reason why Fletchling is to insane for the tier, while a lot of Pokemon do in fact lose their usefulness as a sweeper when the opponent packs a Pokemon that can wall it, maybe limiting their use to just a wall breaker, Fletchling stills shines, it threatens things with the revenge kill, and with good prediction can be a nifty pivot too with U-turn grabbing momentum.

Also many people are saying that the reason why Misdreavus is broken and Fletchling isn't is because Misdreavus can get past it's checks easier and this is true (I believe missy is more broken than fletch) but keep in mind Misdreavus's sweep can be stopped by faster Pokemon and choice scarf Pokemon and priority, scarf Scraggy, scarf Missy and scarf pawnaird could all stop a missy sweep cold. Fletchling once it sets up a Swords Dance, is only going to be stopped by a Pokemon who can live a hit and ko back it will not be revenge killed unless the opponent has something like sashbra, scarf scraggy gets picked of, scarf missy gets picked off, with prior damage even scarf pawnaird can be picked off but the point is if Fletchlings sweep is easier to wall than Missys, it's much harder to be revenge killed And even then, overheat is pretty legit to pick of magnemite and pawnaird. Also remember how easy it is for team mates to support fletch, people are either forgetting about these or are only talking about Fletchdig look at my previous posts, there are volt turn and bird spam teams that allow Fletchling to get past the opponent unless they have multiple checks!

EDIT: The Avalanches this is a counter argument to how "Fletchling is dead weight "I don't know how no one saw it lol since I made a similar post in response to blara's also I agree anyone who wants to put a coverage move over swords dance or u turn is not playing Fletchling right, but overheat over roost is legit and check my earlier posts Fletchdig voltturn and bird spam wreck fletch checks unless there are multiple I would quote my earlier post but I'm on my phone atm

 

[boo836]

I'm reposting this here so people understand why I'm really for removing Fletch:

I think that after the debate I had with levi on PS, I feel that it's somewhat necessary to fully explain the point in banning Fletchling. It is my personal belief that Fletchling is not broken. I will not argue that it is broken, but that it's an unhealthy presence in the metagame. Numerous players have noted countlessly the necessity of carrying multiple strong checks to Fletchling. Fletchling not only crushes a huge portion of the metagame, but does so almost always first. We have seen the rise of teams that use multiple Fletch checks to succeed. Archen wasn't even that popular until Fletchling became huge. Birdspam is easily the dominant playstyle in the metagame. This isn't merely because of Flying's great offensive coverage, but the mere fact that Fletchling is that goddamn good. I won't deny that Fletchling has great counters, nor will I say that Fletchling is impossible to beat. I have no issue with dealing with Fletchling. We don't judge whether something is banworthy or not based solely on counters or checks, but the impact it has on the metagame. Fletchling essentially snatches momentum in a way that priority users could not even remotely compare with. It's strongass attacks can wear down its checks, and even then it's easy to place a lot of pressure on those checks. For example, look at Fletchdig's rise. Is that true for other Pokemon like Zigzagoon? Absolutely. However, does Fletchling have the same drawbacks by requiring set up, difficulty with checks, and requiring nearly as much support to pull off? Absolutely not.

Normally, we treat brokenness as the primary reason behind banning. While it's certainly true that broken mons will cause centralization, it's also key to remember that brokenness is not the only thing that will lead to centralization. When Fletch is gone, will it greatly affect the metagame? I don't think that Fletch's checks will be as relevant if it is gone. Don't get me wrong, I think Archen and Chou will still have places in the metagame, but they won't be as commonly seen. Fletch has become a massively overcentralizing force, and in the interest of preventing the metagame from becoming stale, I suggest the removal of Fletch

To quote The Characteristics of a Desirable Pokemon Metagame:

As they say, "Variety is the spice of life". And nowhere is that more true than in the world of gaming. Game makers discovered long ago that players crave diversity, change, and improvement. That's why most successful games are very broad, and are constantly adding new elements. For this reason, a high-quality metagame should be inviting to a wide number of people and personalities. By constantly striving for maximum variety, we can maximize the potential player base, which has the inevitable effect of increasing the number of good players, good strategies, and overall quality of competition. A varied metagame is fresh and exciting, and provides a constant source for investigation and discovery.

If we limit variety, or allow it be reduced, we effectively "shrink" all aspects of the metagame. A game with limited variety is boring to all but the most diehard participants. In a low-variety metagame, the best playing strategies become widely known and predictable, and participation wanes. For this reason, we should constantly strive for as much variety as possible. And, when limits to variety become apparent, the limits should be removed, if possible.

Fletchling is FAR too limiting in competitive play to be legal. I'm a Fletchling abuser, I'm someone who lovs using Flechling, but even I think it's insane to keep it around, because its presence (and arguably, Missy's too) stagnates the metagame. At the very least, I'd propose we ban it for a month and revisit the ban to determine whether or not Fletchling belongs in LC, simply because of its special case.

It isn't a matter of Fletch's multiple checks being useless outside of checking Fletch. It isn't that these checks are few and far between, the core issue concerning Fletch is the fact that you need to ensure that you have multiple hard Fletch checks or else run the risk of either losing it rather easily (chinchou doesn't actually live that long and Restchou is ass, Archen is so much worse when it's weakened), or have it circumvented by easy predictions (Non-Solid Tirt, Magnemite). Sure, there are exceptions like Zigzagoon teams and stall that don't really need more than one dedicated one. But nearly every team that I've used has pretty much required multiple checks, and the teams I've faced really needed a second one.

The only real arguments I see holding up for Fletch are that the checks to most cleaners are already gone anyways, but that kinda ignores the fact that Fletch is a multi-purpose type of attacker, and helps break down threats to it early game by U-Turning to net momentum, or just scoring a strong (though perhaps resisted) hit at usually a low cost. While I'm certain that there's little motivation to innovate in LC, I'm absolutely certain that Fletchling is also a contributing factor to stagnation.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Define totally useless. Also, how useful something is depends on the caliber of your opponent and your own personal skill level. While much of the tier can be used to some effect, things like Aron have very small niches limiting how useful they actually are. Sure, Togepi has the ability to Paraflinch you to death, though would you really call that useful. It loses to so many things in the current meta and really can't switch into neutral hits. Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate of using uncommon or even outright unused mons, but that doesn't mean I can ignore the fact that certain mon can't be considered viable in higher levels of play. Hell I even struggle to use things such as Munna or Ralts on the lowest portion of the ladder against blatant joke teams.

Fletchling does infact have the raw power to muscle past all of its checks (bar Archen, but even then). While it can't beat them all with one set, you tend to want to run a check for Overheat variants and a check for HP Grass variants. I laddered rather high at one point an alright team, though the reason why it did so well was Fletchling. I ran a set of Overheat / HP Grass / Acro / SD, and while not the most optimal, it really made checking Fletchling a pain. And while I know being S-rank does not mean it is broken by any means, it does simply show just how threatening Fletch is. And your point about if they have many checks to this bird, making Fletchling a dead weight is rather amusing. So depending on what you mean by a lot (I'm going to assume 3), it show how far they will go to not be swept by Fletchling. And most, granted not all, of Fletch's checks lose to Bulk Up Timburr, Croagunk, Diglett, or Drilbur. And it is near effortless to one of these on a team with Fletch, making preserving a check for Fletching really hard. And while Fletchling checks are useful outside of checking this bird, feeling like you need several of these to beat one pokemon is simply ludicrous.

I was talking about this with someone else on IRC because they said they disagreed with me too. I feel like I explained pretty well what I meant, so I will try to do the same here.

Well first of all, I generally do play good opponents. Occasionally an average opponent comes into play, but for the most part they are all good. As for totally useless... let me try to put it this way.

Fletchling naturally has multiple checks on people's teams without them even trying, because the typing of many good Pokemon does not go in Fletchling's favor. This means that if you bring Fletchling in to revenge kill something all the opponent has to do is switch out to one of their checks. It can't really break through the opposing checks over times as well, because it isn't the strongest in the first place along with that it can't take a hit to get another Acrobatics off. While it has a few coverage moves to hit some checks hard, it can't him them all, and even still those moves don't always work well enough. Even if you do manage to break through one check and get it into KO range, the opponent almost certainly has another that they can bring in to check Fletchling. Also, if you think about it, due to the large percentage of Pokemon on a team being Fletchling checks, there is a good chance that at least one of the opponent's remaining two Pokemon will be a Fletchling check. This means that Fletchling can't reliably clean all the time, because as long as the opponent has that one check left, they can switch out to it and stop Fletchling.

If Fletchling has a tough time in a game and is walled by a bunch of Pokemon, it is dead weight. There is no other role it provides for the team, as all it does is use its high powered priority to kill. If it can't hit hard, it is useless. I feel that this trait is not something that a banned Pokemon should possess, as they should be able to reliably perform in virtually every game.

If you compare this to Misdreavus, even when it has a "bad game" it still gets stuff done. It can spread a burn or break down a Pokemon so an opponent or two so a teammate can kill it after Missy dies. It can just use Destiny Bond to take the opponent out with it. I think that this trait to always gets something done goes along much better with the LC Ubers than Fletchling's does, as you should be able to count on the Pokemon to get its job done.

Also, I just want to make this clear. Even though I am saying Fletchling is useless in some battles, I am not by any means saying it is bad. I still find it to be quite good sometimes and still a great Pokemon. I just don't feel that it is reliable enough or always good enough to be banned.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Aaron's Aron

I did happen to reply to blara's point and like fatty said earlier we are forgetting about Fletchlings revenge killing potential. There are a lot of arguments going back and forth about how Fletchling has checks it struggles to get passed but no one is really taking into consideration that even before it. Attempts a sweep it is still the best revenge killer in the game with a powerful stab priority and a good offensive typing in flying too.

So even if your opponent has Archen on his team it makes it impossible to sweep until it is gone or severely weakened, yes but Fletchling is still able to come in and threaten any sweeper trying to sweep that doesn't have faster priority with a revenge kill, it can pick of weakened threats, nuke fighting types that have just taken out something, etc. In fact this is one reason why Fletchling is to insane for the tier, while a lot of Pokemon do in fact lose their usefulness as a sweeper when the opponent packs a Pokemon that can wall it, maybe limiting their use to just a wall breaker, Fletchling stills shines, it threatens things with the revenge kill, and with good prediction can be a nifty pivot too with U-turn grabbing momentum.

Also many people are saying that the reason why Misdreavus is broken and Fletchling isn't is because Misdreavus can get past it's checks easier and this is true (I believe missy is more broken than fletch) but keep in mind Misdreavus's sweep can be stopped by faster Pokemon and choice scarf Pokemon and priority, scarf Scraggy, scarf Missy and scarf pawnaird could all stop a missy sweep cold. Fletchling once it sets up a Swords Dance, is only going to be stopped by a Pokemon who can live a hit and ko back it will not be revenge killed unless the opponent has something like sashbra, scarf scraggy gets picked of, scarf missy gets picked off, with prior damage even scarf pawnaird can be picked off but the point is if Fletchlings sweep is easier to wall than Missys, it's much harder to be revenge killed And even then, overheat is pretty legit to pick of magnemite and pawnaird. Also remember how easy it is for team mates to support fletch, people are either forgetting about these or are only talking about Fletchdig look at my previous posts, there are volt turn and bird spam teams that allow Fletchling to get past the opponent unless they have multiple checks!

EDIT: The Avalanches this is a counter argument to how "Fletchling is dead weight "I don't know how no one saw it lol since I made a similar post in response to blara's also I agree anyone who wants to put a coverage move over swords dance or u turn is not playing Fletchling right, but overheat over roost is legit and check my earlier posts Fletchdig voltturn and bird spam wreck fletch checks unless there are multiple I would quote my earlier post but I'm on my phone atm

Sorry Superpowerdude, I must have missed your post before while I was skimming. :(

While I do agree that Fletchling has the potential to be a great revenge sweeper, I feel it isn't as good as it could be. Yes, it could pick off weakened threats, Fighting-types, etc., but all the opponent has to do is switch out. If they do this then they can bring the weakened threat in again later to be a threat if Fletchling is gone, at no risk to them since they didn't take much from the Acrobatics. Yes Fletchling wants to revenge kill, but all the opponent has to do is switch out the Pokemon that is getting picked off. This isn't to say that it can't revenge kill at all, but once again, I don't think it can consistently enough to constitute a ban.