Metagame Misdreavus = dead, Fletchling = alive

[Fiend]

But it's like you said earlier, we're not in the Swirlix era where we were forced to run crap like Grimer and Koffing, which sat dormant and useless if your opponent didn't have it. All of Fletchling's checks have something to contribute, even without having to take on Fletch. Tirtouga and Archen can use its awesome array of support while still hitting pretty hard, Magnemite and Chinchou can provide momentum with Volt Switch, Magnemite also making a good Fairy-counter, and Pawniard is just Pawniard.

I don't feel like I'm bending over in order to accommodate for Fletchling. You have to pack counters for it, but hey, you have to for Pawniard and Mienfoo as well. I know that it can get around its counters with the right coverage, but so can any good offensive Pokemon; Drilbur packs Poison Jab for Cottonee or something along those lines.

I'm aware of how potent FletchDig is, but I've honestly never been too troubled by it. Whenever I see the two in team preview, I make setting the Stealth Rock that screws these two up a priority. A Diglett without its Sash intact is beaten by Tirtouga, Pawniard (Scarf or Regular), Archen, and Scarf Magnemite.

You are correct, I didn't mean to say that Fletchling checks are rather bad outside of beating the bird, I completely agree that they are really good even if the opposing team doesn't pack this bird of doom. But personally I feel that you need at least two to beat the most viable Fletchling sets. And even then, someone could through you the curve ball of an Overheat + HP grass Fletch. And yes Slashari Fletch lacking either U-turn or SD is less than optimal and I fully acknowledge that, though it is a possibility albeit a small one that probably only myself considers in battle.

And I find the argument that if a team has multiple numerous checks/counters to a mon a poor defense. If I have 3 counters to BD Swirlx, it won't be very effective. Does that mean it isn't broken? Of course not! Sure, Fletch checks tend to be more viable than those of Swirlx, but you still need multiple checks. And these can still be worn down as most lack recovery.

EDIT:

Sorry Superpowerdude, I must have missed your post before while I was skimming. :(

While I do agree that Fletchling has the potential to be a great revenge sweeper, I feel it isn't as good as it could be. Yes, it could pick off weakened threats, Fighting-types, etc., but all the opponent has to do is switch out. If they do this then they can bring the weakened threat in again later to be a threat if Fletchling is gone, at no risk to them since they didn't take much from the Acrobatics. Yes Fletchling wants to revenge kill, but all the opponent has to do is switch out the Pokemon that is getting picked off. This isn't to say that it can't revenge kill at all, but once again, I don't think it can consistently enough to constitute a ban.

This makes the checks wear down rather quickly, and often times I find that what they are revenging isn't worth having something lost 20% of their health. You really aren't safe switching Scarf Mag if it's at lower than 50% in on an Acrobatics after SR/spikes as it usually can die to the next Acro. You need 10 HP to live 2 Acros after SR, and you have a 50% chance with 9. Again, quickly worn down.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

And I find the argument that if a team has multiple numerous checks/counters to a mon a poor defense. If I have 3 counters to BD Swirlx, it won't be very effective. Does that mean it isn't broken? Of course not! Sure, Fletch checks tend to be more viable than those of Swirlx, but you still need multiple checks. And these can still be worn down as most lack recovery.

I agree that if you specifically run multiple checks to a Pokemon then that is a poor defense. However, most people run a few checks without the intent of checking Fletchling, as was previously stated. Since a fair amount of the meta itself checks Fletchling, you can't really say that using multiple checks is a bad defense. When a fair amount of the meta checks a Pokemon, it isn't an overpowered Pokemon. Again, people aren't running the Pokemon to check Fletchling, they are running them because they are good for other reasons too.

Let me try to say it this way instead... I know that two Fletchling checks is pretty much a must for teams. However, it doesn't really limit teambuilding at all because Fletching checks are so easy to come by. You could literally not even think about Fletchling when you teambuild, and you would probably have one or two checks to it just because of the Pokemon that are already good.

 

[The Avalanches]

And I find the argument that if a team has multiple numerous checks/counters to a mon a poor defense. If I have 3 counters to BD Swirlx, it won't be very effective. Does that mean it isn't broken? Of course not! Sure, Fletch checks tend to be more viable than those of Swirlx, but you still need multiple checks. And these can still be worn down as most lack recovery.

EDIT:

This makes the checks wear down rather quickly, and often times I find that what they are revenging isn't worth having something lost 20% of their health. You really aren't safe switching Scarf Mag if it's at lower than 50% in on an Acrobatics after SR/spikes as it usually can die to the next Acro.

That's entirely how a sweep is orchestrated, though. Scraggy, SS Tirtouga, and Bunnelby for instance all need their checks and counters removed before they can clean house. Although the three counters I've listed have a comparatively higher abound of counters, they can all be taken care of with the appropriate team support, the same way you'd pair Diglett or Croagunk with Fletchling.

Now, while I do believe FletchLett/FletchBur/etc is perhaps the most potent offensive core in LC, I still find it to be manageable. Perhaps not to the extent of other cores, but certainly not to the point where I would consider it a broken or unhealthy force in the metagame.

 

[Rowan]

For the record I never find fletch to be deadweight. It's ability to revenge kill lots of things means it plays an important role in every battle it's in preventing loads of weakened sweepers and stuff like bellsprout and scraggy from sweeping through my team. I also hardly ever sweep with fletch without diglett support, since it just isn't that powerful and many bulky walls and resists can stop it. If I use it without diglett, it's to check lots of Pokemon and give support and momentum to my team with u-turn. Maybe that's just the way I use it though, I guess I barely ever build teams with a fletchling sweep in mind.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

For the record I never find fletch to be deadweight. It's ability to revenge kill lots of things means it plays an important role in every battle it's in preventing loads of weakened sweepers and stuff like bellsprout and scraggy from sweeping through my team. I also hardly ever sweep with fletch without diglett support, since it just isn't that powerful and many bulky walls and resists can stop it. If I use it without diglett, it's to check lots of Pokemon and give support and momentum to my team with u-turn. Maybe that's just the way I use it though, I guess I barely ever build teams with a fletchling sweep in mind.

I do agree that it is great sometimes, just not always is what I'm saying. And I do think that the type of team you run has an effect on it as well. But like you said, it just protects you from being swept by something like Scraggy and Bellsprout and gets some momentum every now and then. In a sense it's almost like a safety net. I don't really think this makes in banworthy though.

 

[Fiend]

Rowan, I it seems I use it the same way. It's not just another great sweeper, it has amazing utility. Sure it might not have the bulk that Missy has, nor quite the same versatility, but both have great utility. Both make amazing revenge killers, both make superba sweepers, both check other superba sweepers, and both (probably) force switches the most switches. What makes Fletch ban worth is that it can do all of these with on set while Missy cannot. Another similarity between these too is that their checks depend on what coverage option they use. If you only have one check, you will be swept if they have the proper coverage move for said check. Sure, you will rarely see more than one coverage option on Fletchling (usually Overheat), but we can't ignore viable alternatives in HP Grass or apparently Natural Gift. Sure, some walls have to be broken/worn down first, though very few things can honestly say it doesn't need walls to be worn down. Missy needs it, Gligar needed it, Swirlx needed it, Tangla needed it, hell Scyther probably needs it too.

 

[OP]

I just wanted to point out some of the key differences between Misdreavus and Fletchling. They both can get around their checks, but Misdreavus is able to do so while setting up for a sweep. The majority of Misdreavus checks are broken through because it has used Nasty Plot first. Effectively Misdreavus can break through its check and continue to sweep whereas Fletchling has to use some random coverage move that hits its check on the switch, find another free turn to set-up and then it can sweep. Another big difference is that there are pokemon that are able to consistently beat Fletchling. Now the amount of pokemon that are able to do this lessens with the presence of Diglett, but there are still a pretty solid amount. You can always switch in your Tirtouga, Archen, Resttalk Chinchou, etc. and even if they happen to have the right coverage move, the Fletchling has to hit you multiple times with it, or setup a swords dance first and then use that Natural Gift or Steel Wing, but Fletchling will be outspeed and OHKO'd when trying to do so. Essentially, Misdreavus poses a much more immediate threat to your team because it can break through it's check and sweep your team with just one free turn or requires you to at least sack a Pokemon every time it comes it so you can revenge kill it.

Common scenarios

Against Porygon:
Turn 1: Misdreavus forces a switch to Porygon and sets up Nasty Plot.
Turn 2: 50/50 mindgame. If Misdreavus uses Substitute and Porygon uses thunder wave, Misdreavus can break through its check and subsequently sweep.

Against Vullaby:
Turn 1: Force the switch to Vullaby and set-up Nasty Plot.
Turn 2: 2HKO with Thunderbolt or Dazzling Gleam while avoiding the KO from Knock Off.

Again Munchlax:
Turn 1: Force the switch to Munchlax and set-up Nasty Plot.
Turn 2: Proceed to burn Munchlax and set-up as much as you want, then eventually kill with any coverage move you have.

Against Houndour:
Turn 1: Force the switch and set-up.
Turn 2: OHKO Houndour after rocks with Hidden Power Fighting. Misdreavus lives any Sucker Punch barring something like max attack Life Orb and even then it's a 50/50 again because Misdreavus might just use Substitute.

I could go on, but you probably get the point. Misdreavus is just a much more immanent threat with no sure-fire counter.

 

[chimp]

Forgive me if I sound like THAT guy or if this post comes off as snarky.
But if you are just joining the discussion, I highly highly suggest reading, or atleast scanning, through the thread first. I noticed a trend last suspect with Swirlix, and I think I'm starting to see it forming again. Basically, one person posts one thing, everyone discusses it, then someone else comes in and posts the SAME THING and we go right back into that same discussion. Its not really getting us anywhere and the discussion starts to go in circles. Like blarajan said, directly replying to other's posts is the best way to build up a logical discussion, instead of just coming in and posting a super-paragraph of things we've already read before. I'm NOT trying to call anyone out here, and I'm guilty to this as well.

Again, though, I'd like to express the point that pokemon aren't banned for sweeping prowess alone. For some reason, it seems some people are treating Misdreavus and Fletchling as if they are being suspected for the SAME reasons. They are not. They are two completely different pokes who /may/ be broken for completely different reasons. I'm kinda not good at putting this into words so WE FLOWCHART NOW:

I know suspects are generally very subjective, and of course I'm not claiming to be some suspect discussion expert or to be even a master of pokemon, but I think this flowchart is adequate in providing a way at looking at each Pokemon and how they can be deemed "broken." The whole reason I made it was to push discussion away from holes (lol @ that convo on shieldon) and hopefully make it more forward.

In any case, If you follow the chart for Fletchling, I think it'll lead you to the bottom "Its probably unhealthy for the metagame," along with a nice little sprite of Gligar. Like a lot of people, myself included, have mentioned previously in the thread, Fletchling, atleast in my eyes, is more of a utility mon. It doesn't matter if its counters are still alive because it can either
1) Force almost every sweeper out then build momentum with U-turn
2) KO almost every sweeper with Priority Acrobatics
And again, there is almost NO risk to itself. Not even a Speed Booster who stalled for 6 turns will be able to move first. There might be some mindgames with U-turn but thats not that hard to play around. Not only this but it can SWEEP with the same set. Kinda ridiculous.

Also... I know my choice of color was not exactly the best but I made it in ms paint so I can't change it now lol. Also, sorry about making it so large lol.

 

[boo836]

Good flowchart/10

 

[Camden]

Rowan, I it seems I use it the same way. It's not just another great sweeper, it has amazing utility. Sure it might not have the bulk that Missy has, nor quite the same versatility, but both have great utility. Both make amazing revenge killers, both make superba sweepers, both check other superba sweepers, and both (probably) force switches the most switches. What makes Fletch ban worth is that it can do all of these with on set while Missy cannot. Another similarity between these too is that their checks depend on what coverage option they use. If you only have one check, you will be swept if they have the proper coverage move for said check. Sure, you will rarely see more than one coverage option on Fletchling (usually Overheat), but we can't ignore viable alternatives in HP Grass or apparently Natural Gift. Sure, some walls have to be broken/worn down first, though very few things can honestly say it doesn't need walls to be worn down. Missy needs it, Gligar needed it, Swirlx needed it, Tangla needed it, hell Scyther probably needs it too.

Honestly, people shouldn't be using Natural Gift. I think it's much better to run a move to compliment Fletching's own abilities better than a one-time coverage move, like SD or Roost.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Gorgeous flowchart Blizzardy. (One mostly irrelevant thing, though - I'm having trouble figuring out how Gligar ended up where it did.
If I go from the top, I go to "above average stats"; since it was powerful, fast, AND bulky, I go to "about how many sets can it run". Regarding "about how many sets can it run", I go to "a lot" because the gligar analysis sort of had no less than 5 sets; however, these sets shared fairly similar counters for the most part (I think), so I go to "how many counters does each set have". Gligar had plenty of ways to get around its counters, so I ended up with Gligar where Misdreavus is right now. Obviously it doesn't really matter in this case, but if we're going to use this amazing flowchart for future suspects, I might as well point it out.)

I think the flowchart actually helps prove Fletchling is alright. My main issue with finding Fletchling as "probably unhealthy for the metagame" is that being weak to Fletchling doesn't instantly make a Pokemon unviable; just look at Mienfoo. Fletchling forces Mienfoo out repeatedly with the threat of a powerful STAB Acrobatics, yet Mienfoo continues to find itself repeatedly listed as easily one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. Cottonee fears Fletchling tremendously, being the only Pokemon in the A range to be unable to 2HKO Fletchling while taking heavy damage in return, yet it finds itself A rank on the viability thread, its strengths making it worth using even when Fletchling is waiting in the wings. Speaking of A ranked mons, Cottonee is actually the only one that Fletchling can safely switch in on - even Foongus 2HKOs more often than not with Sludge Bomb, BEFORE factoring in Stealth Rock. Fletchling simply cannot be compared to Gligar in this regard; if something was weak to Gligar, the opposing team would ALWAYS suffer, because there wasn't a single Pokemon that could switch into Knock Off Gligar more than once, whereas plenty of Pokemon can switch into specific Fletchling sets more than once. It was nothing like Fletchling, where in a metagame where Fletchling is able to run 2 items and no item at the same time while carrying 6 moves, Fletchling would have no counters; as long as Gligar carried dual STABs and Knock Off, whatever was coming in wasn't going to be able to stomach two hits without its Eviolite. On the other hand, Pokemon that lose to Fletchling still function just fine. Even outside of that, Gligar was able to switch into a multitude of threats with its massive 65/105/65 defenses, a fair bit more than Fletchling's 45/43/38 defenses.

So now we ask how much skill Fletchling requires. I'm not sure how we're going to define skill here, but I don't think Fletchling is any less "skilled" than other Pokemon. Mindlessly spamming Acrobatics simply doesn't work; if you do so, then you're giving Archen a free switch to crush something with its 20 attack, or Chinchou or Magnemite to Volt Switch out to completely ruin your momentum, or Tirtouga the chance to set up Stealth Rock, and so on. As such, you have to choose between Acrobatics or U-Turn; if you haphazardly pick U-Turn, you're going to look silly when Mienfoo OHKOs you after Stealth Rock with Stone Edge or High Jump Kick, or Foongus puts something to sleep. As such, we find Fletchling listed under "It's fine (probably)", which is where I think it belongs.

 

[chimp]

Gorgeous flowchart Blizzardy. (One mostly irrelevant thing, though - I'm having trouble figuring out how Gligar ended up where it did.
If I go from the top, I go to "above average stats"; since it was powerful, fast, AND bulky, I go to "about how many sets can it run". Regarding "about how many sets can it run", I go to "a lot" because the gligar analysis sort of had no less than 5 sets; however, these sets shared fairly similar counters for the most part (I think), so I go to "how many counters does each set have". Gligar had plenty of ways to get around its counters, so I ended up with Gligar where Misdreavus is right now. Obviously it doesn't really matter in this case, but if we're going to use this amazing flowchart for future suspects, I might as well point it out.)

I think the flowchart actually helps prove Fletchling is alright. My main issue with finding Fletchling as "probably unhealthy for the metagame" is that being weak to Fletchling doesn't instantly make a Pokemon unviable; just look at Mienfoo. Fletchling forces Mienfoo out repeatedly with the threat of a powerful STAB Acrobatics, yet Mienfoo continues to find itself repeatedly listed as easily one of the best Pokemon in the metagame. Cottonee fears Fletchling tremendously, being the only Pokemon in the A range to be unable to 2HKO Fletchling while taking heavy damage in return, yet it finds itself A rank on the viability thread, its strengths making it worth using even when Fletchling is waiting in the wings. Speaking of A ranked mons, Cottonee is actually the only one that Fletchling can safely switch in on - even Foongus 2HKOs more often than not with Sludge Bomb, BEFORE factoring in Stealth Rock. Fletchling simply cannot be compared to Gligar in this regard; if something was weak to Gligar, the opposing team would ALWAYS suffer, because there wasn't a single Pokemon that could switch into Knock Off Gligar more than once, whereas plenty of Pokemon can switch into specific Fletchling sets more than once. It was nothing like Fletchling, where in a metagame where Fletchling is able to run 2 items and no item at the same time while carrying 6 moves, Fletchling would have no counters; as long as Gligar carried dual STABs and Knock Off, whatever was coming in wasn't going to be able to stomach two hits without its Eviolite. On the other hand, Pokemon that lose to Fletchling still function just fine. Even outside of that, Gligar was able to switch into a multitude of threats with its massive 65/105/65 defenses, a fair bit more than Fletchling's 45/43/38 defenses.

So now we ask how much skill Fletchling requires. I'm not sure how we're going to define skill here, but I don't think Fletchling is any less "skilled" than other Pokemon. Mindlessly spamming Acrobatics simply doesn't work; if you do so, then you're giving Archen a free switch to crush something with its 20 attack, or Chinchou or Magnemite to Volt Switch out to completely ruin your momentum, or Tirtouga the chance to set up Stealth Rock, and so on. As such, you have to choose between Acrobatics or U-Turn; if you haphazardly pick U-Turn, you're going to look silly when Mienfoo OHKOs you after Stealth Rock with Stone Edge or High Jump Kick, or Foongus puts something to sleep. As such, we find Fletchling listed under "It's fine (probably)", which is where I think it belongs.

I put Gligar there because during its metagame it was the best at almost everything, Sweeper, SR, Defogger, Baton Pass, physical bulkiness... etc. Though I can definitely see it somewhere else.

I think Mienfoo's usage is also playing off a lot of other factors in the metagame. (Blara was talking about this in IRC just recently).
Fletchling, on one hand, makes Pawniard (a check) much more popular. In turn, making Mienfoo much more popular. Also, the popularity of Fletchling itself might see some rise in Mienfoo as well, since it makes a good partner with Fletchling. Cottonee is the same way... even though its only at #17 at usage.

But other pokemon totally are suffering. Foongus and Croagunk barely got out of B rank. Torchic use and Baton Passing in general is pretty much at an all time low due to Fletchling. Sticky Web is almost non-existent.

I don't think Fletch hurts individual Pokemon so much as it hurts other strategies. Sun Teams, Baton Pass, Choice Scarf, Trick Room, Sand, etc.

 

[Slashari]

I put Gligar there because during its metagame it was the best at almost everything, Sweeper, SR, Defogger, Baton Pass, physical bulkiness... etc. Though I can definitely see it somewhere else.

I think Mienfoo's usage is also playing off a lot of other factors in the metagame. (Blara was talking about this in IRC just recently).
Fletchling, on one hand, makes Pawniard (a check) much more popular. In turn, making Mienfoo much more popular. Also, the popularity of Fletchling itself might see some rise in Mienfoo as well, since it makes a good partner with Fletchling. Cottonee is the same way... even though its only at #17 at usage.

But other pokemon totally are suffering. Foongus and Croagunk barely got out of B rank. Torchic use and Baton Passing in general is pretty much at an all time low due to Fletchling. Sticky Web is almost non-existent.

I don't think Fletch hurts individual Pokemon so much as it hurts other strategies. Sun Teams, Baton Pass, Choice Scarf, Trick Room, Sand, etc.

I definitely think you're right in that Fletchling checks a lot of those playstyle, but in my experience, they don't get a lot of use simply because they aren't that good or consistent. Trick Room, Sticky Web, and BP are pretty meh and require a lot of support. Sun and Sand are pretty good, and there's no question that Fletch is a major reason Sun in particular isn't as popular, but it is still a viable playstyle nonetheless. Weather based teams and whatnot really saw a drop in usage this gen due to the weather mechanics more than anything. When Fletch wasn't seeing much usage, none of these playstyle saw a ton of usage anyway.

Also I'm pretty sure we don't want the meta being dominated by sun ;-;

Edit: last part was a joke pls don't hurt me I know it's a terrible argument T_T

 

[GlassGlaceon]

I definitely think you're right in that Fletchling checks a lot of those playstyle, but in my experience, they don't get a lot of use simply because they aren't that good or consistent. Trick Room, Sticky Web, and BP are pretty meh and require a lot of support. Sun and Sand are pretty good, and there's no question that Fletch is a major reason Sun in particular isn't as popular, but it is still a viable playstyle nonetheless. Weather based teams and whatnot really saw a drop in usage this gen due to the weather mechanics more than anything. When Fletch wasn't seeing much usage, none of these playstyle saw a ton of usage anyway.

Also I'm pretty sure we don't want the meta being dominated by sun ;-;

Stop saying stuff like this omg seriously we already established if the banning of something makes something else obviously broken we'll just ban it too. It isn't a good argument for anti-ban supporters either :]

 

[Alowe282]

Excuse me but it doesn't make sense to post two counters of Fletchling (which are clearly not the best around and they both get destroyed by Diglett if either rocks or spikes are up) then say that it's ban worthy, at least if you think it's worth a ban tell us why it is.

u could run something to counter dig as well

 

[The Avalanches]

stop being a hater i and both use sturdy juice sombo so its not that big of a deal

That isn't the point. He was saying that Aron isn't going to do much aside from checking Fletchling, and if Fletchling isn't being used, it's mostly a wasted slot, like Skrelp was during the Swirlix era.

Please don't take our contention of your stance as a personal attack, man. We aren't haters.

 

[boo836]

As Blizzardy stated, sole sets do not typically prevent really good Pokemon from being usable, and typically they are from multiple factors stemming from the usage of that Pokemon. A rise in Diglett would lead to a decrease in Chinchou, as a basic example. However, it may also lead to rises where one would not expect at first thought, for instance in Fighters. But as Blizzardy also stated, some Pokemon may be weak to something but also pair well with it. The FWG core is a prime example of that. Dark/Psychic/Fighting, and in LC especially, Flying/Rock/Fighting.

 

[boo836]

u could run something to counter dig as well

And they could run something to counter that counter, and you could counter that counter, ect. This is not Counter That Team, this is a suspect discussion.

 

[mad0ka]

And they could run something to counter that counter, and you could counter that counter, ect. This is not Counter That Team, this is a suspect discussion.

Also, you can't really "counter" Diglett because it's ability prevents one from switching. Just thought I'd add that.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Sorry Superpowerdude, I must have missed your post before while I was skimming. :(

While I do agree that Fletchling has the potential to be a great revenge sweeper, I feel it isn't as good as it could be. Yes, it could pick off weakened threats, Fighting-types, etc., but all the opponent has to do is switch out. If they do this then they can bring the weakened threat in again later to be a threat if Fletchling is gone, at no risk to them since they didn't take much from the Acrobatics. Yes Fletchling wants to revenge kill, but all the opponent has to do is switch out the Pokemon that is getting picked off. This isn't to say that it can't revenge kill at all, but once again, I don't think it can consistently enough to constitute a ban.

It is always true that a check can be switched in but there is a cost to bringing a switch in to a Pokemon that knows either u-turn or Volt Switch because yeah you could predict right and save the weakened Pokemon But bringing in a check and getting u-turned on not only puts the momentum in the favour of the Fletchling user, but it also can be very dangerous for the checks, Fletchdig teams can then trap some checks in this position and volt turn fletch teams can bring in something like scarf mag or chinchou to threaten the archen or tirtouga switch in. you always have to take into consideration that the player may U-turn with Fletch when it is in the position to revenge kill

You can switch into a check but even then I would argue that Fletchling did a good job. If you had to switch out your +2 Misdreavus to avoid Fletchling revenge killing it even if you predict right and it doesn't go for U-turn when you bring your check in, it has still achieved something by forcing a +2 missy out, and as a result it makes Missy have a harder time setting up A nasty plot later on in the game. Plus not to mention some sweepers would just get sacced when Fletchling is in because they can't set up again, clamperl, although not that popular would prolly be sacced to Fletchling since it will be deadweight if it is switched in again with it not being bulky and healthy enough to set up another smash so sometimes switching out is not prefered

And no need to be sorry haha this discussion has been flying so it's hard to read everything, especially if you were on camp and had to catch up :)

 

[fatty]

the flow chart neither proves that fletchling is broken nor manageable. in the end, it's just a visual representation (albeit a pretty good one imo) on one persons viewpoint o! how we came to a conclusion on precious suspects. there really is no set categories or qualities that deem a pokemon broken or not, and while that does give a nice visual summary of a single persons opinion, that's really all it still is: an opinion. i know where you were trying to go with that blizzardy, but I could of just as easily created a flow chart depicting different aspects of each suspect that led to the conclusion that they were indeed quite manageable. that doesn't mean that I think that at all, because I don't, I just want to bring that to people's attention and I really do appreciate how you laid out your thoughts with that chart so nicely.

this discussion has been mostly about fletch, so tomorrow when I have more time I'd like to try and steer towards a middle ground between the two. I'm not entirely sure that missy is as broken as people think it is , definitely not as much as fletch imo, but ive yet to come to a full gone conclusion on it.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

It is always true that a check can be switched in but there is a cost to bringing a switch in to a Pokemon that knows either u-turn or Volt Switch because yeah you could predict right and save the weakened Pokemon But bringing in a check and getting u-turned on not only puts the momentum in the favour of the Fletchling user, but it also can be very dangerous for the checks, Fletchdig teams can then trap some checks in this position and volt turn fletch teams can bring in something like scarf mag or chinchou to threaten the archen or tirtouga switch in. you always have to take into consideration that the player may U-turn with Fletch when it is in the position to revenge kill

You can switch into a check but even then I would argue that Fletchling did a good job. If you had to switch out your +2 Misdreavus to avoid Fletchling revenge killing it even if you predict right and it doesn't go for U-turn when you bring your check in, it has still achieved something by forcing a +2 missy out, and as a result it makes Missy have a harder time setting up A nasty plot later on in the game. Plus not to mention some sweepers would just get sacced when Fletchling is in because they can't set up again, clamperl, although not that popular would prolly be sacced to Fletchling since it will be deadweight if it is switched in again with it not being bulky and healthy enough to set up another smash so sometimes switching out is not prefered

And no need to be sorry haha this discussion has been flying so it's hard to read everything, especially if you were on camp and had to catch up :)

I agree that after a while this is true - if you wear them down enough. It just isn't true for the entire battle. But you made a good argument that I have thought myself actually, so I will leave it be. I agree with you. :) /me applauds your argument

 

[macle]

My main problem with fletch is the amount of pressure it puts on a player. You have to play a stupid 50/50 game of eating acrobatics or switching out to a counter only to have it u-turn out to diglett or some set up sweeper that gets a free turn. Now, you are wondering can't chinchou, mienfoo, etc do the same thing? No, the other mons don't have priority 110 bp attack.

 

[zeriloa]

so i haven't posted in here yet cuz i'm bad at words and this thread is pretty intimidating, but i guess i'll give my concise thoughts on the suspects

Missy - this is a lot easier to prove broken in theory than in practice imo, however a lot of people want it gone and its probably unhealthy for the meta, so i'm fine with seeing it go

Fletch - Levi's post on the first page summed up my thoughts on fletch pretty well. it requires a lot of support to get around its checks/counters (the claims of it being able to get around all its counters are just plain bullshit; natural gift fletch is hardly even viable, let alone something that makes it broken). I don't have much more to say about it, other than that its influence on the meta is pretty severely exaggerated imo

edit: 200th post or something

 

[brizz]

1) Is Misdreavus broken?
In my opinion yes, it definitely is. Most teams have to rely on a limited number of hard-checks to stop it (yeah, no real counter to this little girl) and this causes over-centralization, of course. The most common offensive check (Pawniard) causes centralization as well, since a good team needs to run a solid Misdreavus switch AND a solid Pawniard check, meaning that every team MUST run at least 2 top pkmns. A bit sad when it comes to team building, isn't it?
Moreover, Misdreavus is able to get past most of its common switch-ins (HP fighting for Pawniard/Houndour/ as well as Trick for Poryogn/Lickitung) and even has a chance to survive to rkill. Basically, if Missy stays in vs Pawniard and the latter goes for Pursuit...well, the Pawniard team has lost the battle, kinda :P

continuing with number 2 just for the sake of it heh

2) Is Misdreavus making Little Cup not fun?
I think that no pkmn is THAT broken to make a tier not fun to play; however, Misdreavus makes the game a bit dull sometimes, if you ask me. Every battle I played against a Misdreavus I had to concentrate really hard to not get swept (and I ran at least a switch-in AND a rkiller for it). Sometimes I even had to sack a pkmn for a 1-1 trade. I know that this is a common situation, but I find it stupid to have this as the only opportunity to stop Misdreavus, in many scenarios.

tl;dr BAN

1) Is Fletchling broken?
Well, not really. Fletching is very powerful indeed, but there are solid answers for it. Apart from the standard Chinchou, Archen, Tirtouga and Magnemite there are some solid niche pkmn that can easily take a hit (Onix and Geoudude, for example). Also, there's still some checks to Fletch, should your team not be able to run a standard counter (Slowpoke is quite good and I bet there are many more bulky Water-types out there n_n).
However, it goes without saying that Fletchling is very centralizing. The need of running a Steel/Rock/Electric type per team is quite bad (as in Missy's case)...but something's different. The answers to Fletchling are utility pkmns, given the right set. That is to say that you need to run an offensive partner to get rid of them, not a counter.
At last, I like to think that the "broken status" Fletchling has keeps away many dangerous play styles, such as ChloroDrought and Fighting spam. While the former is pretty famous (or infamous?), the latter is not that common indeed. Well, since most Fighting types can get past Fairies/Ghosts I'd say that a solid rkiller for them is god's gift.

2) Is Fletchling making Little Cup not fun?
"Not fun" is a bit to much, as I said previously. I'd rather say repetitive. When facing a Fletch the most common battle scenario is "get rocks up, switch to counter, repeat). But oh well, this is due to Fletchling's nature, that is to say a frail pkmn that cannot come in easily and should be sent into battle only to rkill a threat or to gain/keep momentum.

tl;dr NO BAN