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I brought up Lando-i and Keldeo because they play the same role as Charizard Y. However, unlike Charizard Y, they don't need hazard support, they outspeed all base 100's, they can break all common walls, aren't on a 5 turn timer, and they don't take up that mega slot. Charizard needs hazard support and even then, even after you give it that support it can't even beat Chansey. I understand they're S rank but Charizard, who is imo a worse alternative is only one rank below, A+. Char-Y is overshadowed by the S rank wallbreakers on so many levels that I think it should be a couple ranks below them :/.
Oh look, Mega-Garde is a special wallbreaker in A- that doesn't need hazard removal, and beats Chansey.
Now let's compare it to other A+ rank mons. When you give Pinsir support it's the most terrifying SD sweeper in the metagame, and only gets reliably stopped by 1 common poke. Give Char-Y more or less the same support and you get a third rate special wallbreaker that gets switched on by Dragonite, the Latis, blobs... Both of these Pokemon eat teams for breakfast, but Pinsir has greater speed, can set up, has priority, andwallbreaks as well as Char-Y considering it also gets stopped by one common mon. What I'm trying to say is you get more bang for your buck by using Pinsir.
Based off my battling experience/the points above I've never seen Char-Y as an A+ pokemon.
Aight son you're telling me that Keldeo and Landorus break all common walls? That's so wrong. Keldeo needs to rely on specs to be any real threat to stall (Amoong and Venu will beat CM 1v1) and still there are SO MANY pokemon keldeo cannot break through without relying on a friggin 30% chance to burn.
Amoong, Venu, Slowking, Dragonite, Latias, even alomomola can take it on decently. You're REALLY overselling keldeo's power here.
I can agree that Lando is alike to char-y in that they are special wall breakers (and both part flying ?_?) but that's pretty much where the relevant comparisons end. The only real pokemon that they target in common are dnite and latios, and latios is pretty much 2hko'd by fire blast anyway. Sure, landorus has a way to "beat" them (only on the switch) but its not as if landorus doesn't appreciate pursuit support either.
Finally, you make comparisons to char-y with mega pinsir and mega gardevoir, saying that they have more power or require less support. Well, given that you keep rocks off the field, Char-y has FAR more survivability then all of them, and i'd say that's a big part of what makes it such a good mon. Fire/Flying is an excellent defensive typing and Roost is reliable recovery; thanks to these Char-y will be sticking around FAR longer than mega garde or Mega Pinsir will. Ultimately, Char-y's bulk is just better, which allows it more switch-ins, which allows it to wallbreak more efficiently than you'd think.
Also, if you forego roost and put in focus punch, you can catch chansey on the switch (or when it does almost anything else) and kill it with a fire blast following up :3
Looks like a lot has changed in the rankings since the last time I saw them. Highly improved IMO :].
Just going to quickly suggest a few things
Mew from A- to A: Mew's stallbreaker set is a pain for any playstyle to face and single handedly dismantles any stall which does not consist of a Charizard. It completely shuts down defensive mons by denying them use of hazards, status, and recovery. It beats most offensive mons by having great bulk and being able to heal off almost any special hit while knocking off Life Orbs. HP investment paired with good defensive typing allows it to not get 2hkoed by most physical nukes if it burns them after the first hit. It runs a great defensive spread too if required and can check Medicham with it. Overall a great mon that always puts in work regardless of matchup.
Mandibuzz from A to A-/B+: Mandibuzz is really not that great anymore. It was already on the decline even before Aegi was banned because Gliscor surpassed it as an Aegi check. Due to the lack of threat level posed by Mandi, the momentum is easily obtained by the opponent when Mandi uses Defog with a simple switch. It also loses a fourth of it's health when it comes in and just ends up getting forced out. This is easily repeated because rocks are just too easy to set and defogging with Mandi comes with consequence which opponents are glad to take advantage of. Apart from this, it is quite useless against Mawile, Azumarill, and Mega Tyranitar and just gives them free turns which is not very acceptable for a physical wall in this meta.
Garchomp from A+ to A: Garchomp is good, it has different sets which it can make use of and also keep the opponent guessing until the reveal. But it's just that guessing the set wrong doesn't cause much consequence. There are quite a few things which check all of Garchomp's sets and using Garchomp in general is full of gambles and 50-50s due to the nature of it's STABs. The same applies with the Choice Scarf set which though good for revenge killing +1 sweepers, is risky to use in general especially early to mid game since both it's STABs have common types which are immune to them which leads to the 50-50s again. I'm not sure if too many people will agree with this one but just mentioning my opinion anyway. Also Bisharp was moved down which is okay, but I don't think Garchomp should be above Bisharp who is the best Knock Off user in the game, has the strongest priority, and plays a vital role in Pursuit cores.
I agree with the other two, but I don't think Garchomp should move down. Almost every metagame shift this generation I've started to feel like Garchomp is declining, and then I make some nice team with it and start using it again, and it continues to succeed. Garchomp is truly an excellent Pokemon. It is a solid lead rocks setter, as it can often get rocks and a kill before it dies. If it runs Fire Blast, the most popular Defoggers (Skarmory, Lati@s) and both primary OU-viable spinners (Balloon Excadrill, Starmie) cannot remove SR on it, which is excellent. Its Choice Scarf set is a large threat to basically every offensive team. It can be kind of a guessing game, but far in the favor of the Garchomp user as if they predict wrong, the worse that happens is they're forced out, but if you predict wrong, you lose a Pokemon. Its STAB combination is really that great. Furthermore, its Speed tier and attacks make it an effective revenge killer to common Dragon Dance sweepers and many faster Pokemon, for example it is a pretty cool Thundurus check for offense. It can even pack Stealth Rock if needed, which serves as an excellent bluff to boot, or run Fire Blast to 2HKO Skarmory. Great bulk means it's pretty much impossible to kill with any priority attack, too. It survives Sash Mamo's Ice Shard ffs. It has a lot of utility and threat level to provide as a Pokemon. There are few real surefire answers to it. Just a solid Pokemon that really shouldn't be moving down any time soon.
Pursuit and Defog/spin support really isn't that much to ask for when you think about it. One of the most common pairs, Tyranitar + Excadrill can provide both of these forms of support. Plus, it's not like other Pokemon don't require this much support. Look at a Pokemon like Mega Pinsir or Mega Charizard X. These Pokemon are sweepers which require plenty of support to work on a team (hazards gone, all those answers removed...yea). Yet, nobody's calling for them to be dropped. Landorus-I does require less support than Charizard Y, but that would be why it's S Rank. In fact to the person who brought up Landorus and Keldeo, both of them are S Rank. So what bearing does that have on Charizard Y being A+ Rank? You can't compare them, they're such fundamentally different Pokemon with different weaknesses that can deal with different threats and pose a different threat to opposing teams. Staraptor is much, much, much frailer than Mega Charizard Y. It's easier to wear down by its nature. Generally, it's much more difficult to allow it to pose a consistent threat throughout the game, which Mega Charizard Y can easily provide. I think moving it down is kind of insane, honestly, given its lethality in the current metagame.
A is still good put chomp has a few problems. The fact that there are so many flying and fairy types running around in ou means that every time chomp clicks a choice locked stab, it is taking a huge risk and putting the user in a bad position. It is also weak against defensive teams because 130 attack with no boosting item and no adamant is kinda weak in ou (that power creep). It also has a lead set, but lead mamo is popular as ever, and easily beats it. Chomp is good, but not at the level of other A+ Pokemon such as mega gyarados and mega pinsir.
->B
I feel Salamence can go to C because it isn't as shit as the other C- mons. Yeah, its pretty outclassed, but it actually isn't bad. When you look at C- rank, you see Umbreon, Ludicolo, Haxorus, and shit like Sharpedo and Slowking. Salamence is simply better than these mons. In a vacuum, it isn't bad at all. Really all it lacks is a reliable way to beat bulky fairy types. It's scarf set doesn't miss out on many revenge kills compared to Garchomp, only speed tying with the nonexistent Jolly Zard-X. It still has Moxie, which makes it superior in late-game cleaning, because when you are in the late game you typically have your checks removed and counters weakened/removed. Salamence is also fairly bulky, being 95/80/80, so it isn't going belly-up to most priority. I just feel Salamence is C.
I feel Entei can go to B because it's basically so much in one teamslot. CB in particular can clean late game, wall break, revenge kill, and spread burns. Spamming Sacred Fire is the best option in most scenarios because of the lack of immunities and the burns. When we look at competition, CB Dragonite is remarkable similar, both being hard to switch into and have Extreme Speed. Dragonite has the advantage of power and coverage. Entei has the advantage of having only 1 pokemon immune to its main attack and being harder to switch into by virtue of burns, as well as greater speed. They are about as bulky as each other, as 100/100/90 is about the same as 115/85/75. But because I am nominating it for B, I need to make comparisons to some B residents. Conkeldurr is a good example, being a bulky fighting type. Entei is stronger, faster, and has stronger priority. Conkeldurr is bulkier, and has recovery. I think both are B mons, and Entei should move up to B.
Aight son you're telling me that Keldeo and Landorus break all common walls? That's so wrong. Keldeo needs to rely on specs to be any real threat to stall (Amoong and Venu will beat CM 1v1) and still there are SO MANY pokemon keldeo cannot break through without relying on a friggin 30% chance to burn.
Amoong, Venu, Slowking, Dragonite, Latias, even alomomola can take it on decently. You're REALLY overselling keldeo's power here.
I can agree that Lando is alike to char-y in that they are special wall breakers (and both part flying ?_?) but that's pretty much where the relevant comparisons end. The only real pokemon that they target in common are dnite and latios, and latios is pretty much 2hko'd by fire blast anyway. Sure, landorus has a way to "beat" them (only on the switch) but its not as if landorus doesn't appreciate pursuit support either.
Finally, you make comparisons to char-y with mega pinsir and mega gardevoir, saying that they have more power or require less support. Well, given that you keep rocks off the field, Char-y has FAR more survivability then all of them, and i'd say that's a big part of what makes it such a good mon. Fire/Flying is an excellent defensive typing and Roost is reliable recovery; thanks to these Char-y will be sticking around FAR longer than mega garde or Mega Pinsir will. Ultimately, Char-y's bulk is just better, which allows it more switch-ins, which allows it to wallbreak more efficiently than you'd think.
Also, if you forego roost and put in focus punch, you can catch chansey on the switch (or when it does almost anything else) and kill it with a fire blast following up :3
I guess after reading all these counter arguments... I can accept Charizard Y being in A+. I didn't take bulk/typing into account when I compared Char-Y to Pinsir/Gard, which I should've.
If there's one thing I disagree with it's your point about Keldeo. The most common Keldeo set, specs with hp flying/icy wind beats all the common sets of the stuff you listed except for Latias (not a stall mon) on the switch... wait... people use slowking???
Also thanks now you made me scared to switch my Chansey into Charizard...
->B
I feel Salamence can go to C because it isn't as shit as the other C- mons. Yeah, its pretty outclassed, but it actually isn't bad. When you look at C- rank, you see Umbreon, Ludicolo, Haxorus, and shit like Sharpedo and Slowking. Salamence is simply better than these mons. In a vacuum, it isn't bad at all. Really all it lacks is a reliable way to beat bulky fairy types. It's scarf set doesn't miss out on many revenge kills compared to Garchomp, only speed tying with the nonexistent Jolly Zard-X. It still has Moxie, which makes it superior in late-game cleaning, because when you are in the late game you typically have your checks removed and counters weakened/removed. Salamence is also fairly bulky, being 95/80/80, so it isn't going belly-up to most priority. I just feel Salamence is C.
I feel Entei can go to B because it's basically so much in one teamslot. CB in particular can clean late game, wall break, revenge kill, and spread burns. Spamming Sacred Fire is the best option in most scenarios because of the lack of immunities and the burns. When we look at competition, CB Dragonite is remarkable similar, both being hard to switch into and have Extreme Speed. Dragonite has the advantage of power and coverage. Entei has the advantage of having only 1 pokemon immune to its main attack and being harder to switch into by virtue of burns, as well as greater speed. They are about as bulky as each other, as 100/100/90 is about the same as 115/85/75. But because I am nominating it for B, I need to make comparisons to some B residents. Conkeldurr is a good example, being a bulky fighting type. Entei is stronger, faster, and has stronger priority. Conkeldurr is bulkier, and has recovery. I think both are B mons, and Entei should move up to B.
I ve made a few posts about moving Entei up a couple of pages ago and Alexwolf said it wont move up anytime soon and i doubt that changed in the meantime so even though i totaly agree, he will probably have to stay where he is.
Regarding Salamence idk... if haxorus is C- then imo Salamence is fine there as well as they are very much alike. Both good mons in their own right but utterly outclassed by other things to the point where they arent worth using.
If there's one thing I disagree with it's your point about Keldeo. The most common Keldeo set, specs with hp flying/icy wind beats all the common sets of the stuff you listed except for Latias (not a stall mon) on the switch... wait... people use slowking???
Ummm, what? As someone who recently made their first stall team, how I play against Keldeo is switch Amoonguss in. If it uses HP Flying or Icy Wind, I switch to Chansey and Regenerator heals me almost to full, and if it uses anything else, I put something to sleep. Amoonguss is in no way threatened by switching into Keldeo.
I feel like Whimsicott needs to get a D rank here. It's the most reliable full stop to dragon types. You can switch it into a +6 ZardX when you predict the Dragon attack or Dragon Dance or after it kills something with a Dragon attack, and Encore ensures that that thing has to switch back out. This also works against any other type of set-up mon if you predict correctly and its very presence on your team makes setting up very risky for your opponent.
But just stopping set-ups isn't viable for a teamslot if the mon can't do anything else. Fortunately, Whimsicott has a plethora of support options that can snag your team momentum. It has priority Stun Spore, Tailwind, Leech Seed, Taunt and Memento to name some of the best that could be a perfect fit in some select OU teams that really need a check for Dragon Dancers and the like with good support pivoting.
It might also be worth mentioning that if you're real and decide to use a sun team in OU, it's the easiest way to get sun up after Ninetales, provides better support than Ninetales, and has better type synergy with sun abusers than Ninetales.
With all this in its favour I think Whimsicott can definitely find a place in select serious OU teams, at least as often as Mantine and Weezing and so on can.
-> C
I feel Salamence can go to C because it isn't as shit as the other C- mons. Yeah, its pretty outclassed, but it actually isn't bad. When you look at C- rank, you see Umbreon, Ludicolo, Haxorus, and shit like Sharpedo and Slowking. Salamence is simply better than these mons. In a vacuum, it isn't bad at all. Really all it lacks is a reliable way to beat bulky fairy types. It's scarf set doesn't miss out on many revenge kills compared to Garchomp, only speed tying with the nonexistent Jolly Zard-X. It still has Moxie, which makes it superior in late-game cleaning, because when you are in the late game you typically have your checks removed and counters weakened/removed. Salamence is also fairly bulky, being 95/80/80, so it isn't going belly-up to most priority. I just feel Salamence is C.
You are actually overestimating mence by a ton. Any team with Mega Mawile + Ground resist stop it in its tracks. That's a huge portion of the meta and the fact that you can render a poke useless by using a core that is common is detrimental to Salamence's case. The pokes you listed all are actually decent (Haxorus is the worst of them all btw). Umbreon is hella difficult to take down for a lot teams, especially those lacking a strong Fighting or Fairy type. It can provide Wish and cleric support to its team and threatens a lot of set-up sweepers with Foul Play. Ludicolo is one of the only swift swimmers not weak to Grass or Electric and has a niche in being one of the only offensive Grass types used in OU. Slowking checks a lot of special OU threats, Regenerator in combination with its bulk makes for a solid defensive poke, good coverage and it hits moderately hard with base 100 SAtk (really strong for a wall). Sharpedo is pretty terrible and is weak to common types seen in OU. That being said it still can threaten a lot of the meta with Speed Boost + Destiny Bond and doesn't require too much support to do so. And now Haxorus, I would honestly like to place it in D or flat out remove it completely seeing as how no one should ever consider using it on a serious team. Completely outclassed in pretty much every way, but people might start to cry and complain if I just removed it. Essentially, Salamence is pretty terrible, outclassed and should patiently sit down and wait for its mega stone.
I guess after reading all these counter arguments... I can accept Charizard Y being in A+. I didn't take bulk/typing into account when I compared Char-Y to Pinsir/Gard, which I should've.
If there's one thing I disagree with it's your point about Keldeo. The most common Keldeo set, specs with hp flying/icy wind beats all the common sets of the stuff you listed except for Latias (not a stall mon) on the switch... wait... people use slowking???
Also thanks now you made me scared to switch my Chansey into Charizard...
Sp. def amoong can definitely take specs hp flying easily, and sp. def amoong is not uncommon as an answer to keldeo (I will agree that icy wind takes down dnite tho) pretty sure hp flying only 2hko's defensive venu after rocks too, and in general not locking yourself into your STABs makes you very ez to exploit.
Yeah slowking is just a safer stop to keldeo than slowbro is; thats like the only relevant thing it actually does lol.
Also ur welcome about chansey, i'd run Fire Blast/Solarbeam/Dragon Pulse/Focus Punch if you plan on using focus punch at all this set destroys souls.
And now Haxorus, I would honestly like to place it in D or flat out remove it completely seeing as how no one should ever consider using it on a serious team. Completely outclassed in pretty much every way, but people might start to cry and complain if I just removed it.
Can we just make this happen, remove it that is? What does Haxorus even legitimately do? Yeah Mold Breaker, whoopdie doo. We have m-gyarados, Excadrill, and to a lesser extent M-Ampharos which are just way better overall for that. I mean I guess if you wanted that niche role that Haxorus has then I guess sure use it but does it really do anything in OU?
Can we just make this happen, remove it that is? What does Haxorus even legitimately do? Yeah Mold Breaker, whoopdie doo. We have m-gyarados, Excadrill, and to a lesser extent M-Ampharos which are just way better overall for that. I mean I guess if you wanted that niche role that Haxorus has then I guess sure use it but does it really do anything in OU?
The main reason Haxorus was considered for a ranking at all iirc was that it was a decent wallbreaker with Mold Breaker that doesn't take up your Mega Slot, so with SD or DD it could break through counters for some common setup sweepers like Mega Charizard X and Mega Tyranitar. It can run DD or SD decently to basically rip through stall and be used in conjunction with other Megas to break down their counters together. That said I really don't care where Haxorus goes, though I'd say it's in the same league as Salamence, so yeah. Also, Salamence is something I'd never use anyways lol.
Just my stance on this, I might come back later if I can get some nom once I get a few things together.
So... What about moving Latias up into S-Rank? The speed tier of 110 and the LO boosted 110 SpA with massive nuclear attacks like Draco Meteor allows latias to clean right through teams, one check at a time. It has great capabilities as a Belly Drum Azumarill check when using Thunderbolt (survives to +6 AJ and KOs). It checks most ZardX's, is a great stop to ZardY, and is one of the few offensive Keldeo switch-ins. With the rather encompassing speed, it also checks Pinsir-mega fairly well, surviving a +2 Quick Attack and OHKOing with Thunderbolt/DracoMetoer. Latios, after rocks, has a chance to be OHko'd by quick attack. Latias is also one of the easiest ways to threaten out a mega venusaur, who still is impossibly tanky. Not to mention it is also pretty good defensively, doing decently vs every variant of Thundy/Lando bar knock off. The ability to consistently take on Thundurus, esp with a roost set, is useful in the offensive metagame. Even HP ice can't grab a 2hko from life orb thundy variants.
As an offensive defogger, it simply is the best offensive defogger in the game, and is probably more consistent than excadrill at clearing hazards. With enough SpA to threaten a dangerous draco meteor off the defog turn, opponents are still forced to play somewhat carefully during seemingly obvious defog turns due to the great pressure both latis provide.
But Latias provides the one tool that seems to be the elephant in the room when talking about the Lati twins, and that's Healing Wish. Games are changed in a moment when an offensive threat that has been burned, beaten and bruised comes back completely refreshed. Latias also has the bulk and speed to pull this off consistently, giving many set up sweepers a second lease on life without the need for turn wasting moves like wish or heal bell. Even looking at the definition of A rank, we notice a discrepancy between latias and the definition.
Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame.
"portions" is the main issue here. While Latias does wall a considerable portion of the metagame, it is, at the end of the day, a support mon. And it's support is definitely not a 'portion'. It only needs the pokemon it walls/threatens to come in, and considering that many of those mons are S or A+ rank, it seems to be doing a fairly decent job of picking what to take on. From S rank:
These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
See, Latias both performs a variety of roles and does one extremely well. The variety comes in the ability to serve as a check to many of the best monsters in the game, defog, healing wish AND nuke. If A is just for portions of the metagame, then S could be assumed to be for pokemon who perform this role for nearly (if not) all pokemon in the meta. I believe that Latias' support is truly all-encompassing, between the ability to consistently defog and the usage of healing wish. I doubt there is a pokemon in the metagame that cannot benefit from that sort of support. Latias is hands-down the BEST healing wish user in the OU Tier. It may face low amounts of competition for this role, but it is also extremely effective at using healing wish due to it's fast speed and relatively good bulk. I believe it is also the single best offensive defogger in the game, but this is somewhat subjective (it has competition from Latios?).
There is very little risk to Latias. The risk would definitely be pursuit traps, but also remember that Latias comes in, defogs on a Pursuiter's switchin (mainly TTar, hopefully you're not defogging on a bisharp, your own fault) and can healing wish on the pursuit turn, easily outspeeding the relevant pursuiters. This really can mitigate the issues of pursuit. The high reward is obvious. You have a consistent defogger. A keldeo check, a thundurus check, a ZardY check/counter. Multiple other mons can't get by until Latias is low enough to take with their priority (Pinsir/azumarill) or latias just provides an insurmountable challenge to them. To be honest, the only flaw latias has is the dark weakness now that aegi is gone, and maybe a slight issue with U-turn (though this is mostly seen in pokemon like Landorus-t/Scizor, and only scarf lando could really push this issue).
I think, viewing that, Latias's few flaws are very easily patched up by her positive traits. I can't think of a better support mon currently available, especially now that Aegislash can't hinder Latias.
So... What about moving Latias up into S-Rank? The speed tier of 110 and the LO boosted 110 SpA with massive nuclear attacks like Draco Meteor allows latias to clean right through teams, one check at a time. It has great capabilities as a Belly Drum Azumarill check when using Thunderbolt (survives to +6 AJ and KOs). It checks most ZardX's, is a great stop to ZardY, and is one of the few offensive Keldeo switch-ins. With the rather encompassing speed, it also checks Pinsir-mega fairly well, surviving a +2 Quick Attack and OHKOing with Thunderbolt/DracoMetoer. Latios, after rocks, has a chance to be OHko'd by quick attack. Latias is also one of the easiest ways to threaten out a mega venusaur, who still is impossibly tanky. Not to mention it is also pretty good defensively, doing decently vs every variant of Thundy/Lando bar knock off. The ability to consistently take on Thundurus, esp with a roost set, is useful in the offensive metagame. Even HP ice can't grab a 2hko from life orb thundy variants.
As an offensive defogger, it simply is the best offensive defogger in the game, and is probably more consistent than excadrill at clearing hazards. With enough SpA to threaten a dangerous draco meteor off the defog turn, opponents are still forced to play somewhat carefully during seemingly obvious defog turns due to the great pressure both latis provide.
But Latias provides the one tool that seems to be the elephant in the room when talking about the Lati twins, and that's Healing Wish. Games are changed in a moment when an offensive threat that has been burned, beaten and bruised comes back completely refreshed. Latias also has the bulk and speed to pull this off consistently, giving many set up sweepers a second lease on life without the need for turn wasting moves like wish or heal bell. Even looking at the definition of A rank, we notice a discrepancy between latias and the definition.
Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame.
"portions" is the main issue here. While Latias does wall a considerable portion of the metagame, it is, at the end of the day, a support mon. And it's support is definitely not a 'portion'. It only needs the pokemon it walls/threatens to come in, and considering that many of those mons are S rank, it seems to be doing a fairly decent job of picking what to take on. From S rank:
These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.
See, Latias both performs a variety of roles and does one extremely well. The variety comes in the ability to serve as a check to many of the best monsters in the game, defog, healing wish AND nuke. If A is just for portions of the metagame, then S could be assumed to be for pokemon who perform this role for nearly (if not) all pokemon in the meta. I believe that Latias' support is truly all-encompassing, between the ability to consistently defog and the usage of healing wish. I doubt there is a pokemon in the metagame that cannot benefit from that sort of support. Latias it is hands-down the BEST healing wish user in the OU Tier. It may face low amounts of competition for this role, but it is also extremely effective at using healing wish due to it's fast speed and relatively good bulk. I believe it is also the single best offensive defogger in the game, but this is somewhat subjective (it has competition from Latios?).
There is very little risk to Latias. The risk would definitely be pursuit traps, but also remember that Latias comes in, defogs on a Pursuiter's switchin (mainly TTar, hopefully you're not defogging on a bisharp, your own fault) and can healing wish on the pursuit turn, easily outspeeding the relevant pursuiters. This really can mitigate the issues of pursuit. The high reward is obvious. You have a consistent defogger. A keldeo check, a thundurus check, a ZardY check/counter. Multiple other mons can't get by until Latias is low enough to take with their priority (Pinsir/azumarill) or latias just provides an insurmountable challenge to them. To be honest, the only flaw latias has is the dark weakness now that aegi is gone, and maybe a slight issue with U-turn (though this is mostly seen in pokemon like Landorus-t/Scizor, and only scarf lando could really push this issue).
I think, viewing that, Latias's few flaws are very easily patched up by her positive traits. I can't think of a better support mon currently available, especially now that Aegislash can't hinder Latias.
Latias is wrecked by both T-tars, AssVest Azu, Mega Gard, Bisharp, and those are all counters -- offensively and defensively, there's checks all over the place. Latias is very good but absolutely not S material.
Edit: Yes I understand healing wish is a big deal, but when up against something that can potentially KO Latias immediately (see: Ttar, Bisharp), being forced to resort to Healing Wish prematurely sucks. Yes she is a great offensive and support mon but I still don't see her making S anytime soon.
i think moving the most pursuit-prone pokemon in the ou tier is a bad idea. it's not reliable because someone can literally throw on a scarftar or bisharp, whatever, and kill your latias. healing wish latias is great, but it's worn down so fast. it's literally asking for mega mawile to come in and rip it to shreds. you have these pursuiters, ferrothorn (non-hp fire), clefable, heatran, chansey, mawile, pokemon that are so common ready to just eat up latias. it's very good, but too easily taken advantage of and removed from the game that s rank is too far.
Latias is wrecked by both T-tars, AssVest Azu, Mega Gard, Bisharp, and those are all counters -- offensively and defensively, there's checks all over the place. Latias is very good but absolutely not S material.
Edit: Yes I understand healing wish is a big deal, but when up against something that can potentially KO Latias immediately (see: Ttar, Bisharp), being forced to resort to Healing Wish prematurely sucks. Yes she is a great offensive and support mon but I still don't see her making S anytime soon.
Just wanna point something out, not latias but close enough:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 207-243 (51.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 121-143 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The above are not good answers to lati@s, contrary to popular belief. Also with the absence of aegislash, lati@s is less obligated to run hp fire/eq and can more freely run hp fighting, which makes bisharp and ttar less safe of a switch-in.
Just wanna point something out, not latias but close enough:
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 207-243 (51.2 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 121-143 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
The above are not good answers to lati@s, contrary to popular belief. Also with the absence of aegislash, lati@s is less obligated to run hp fire/eq and can more freely run hp fighting, which makes bisharp and ttar less safe of a switch-in.
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 104-122 (37.5 - 44%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Seems like a pretty big difference
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 117-138 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 90-106 (32.4 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
With Latios, it's LO dependent. So we'll say Mega Gardevoir counters Latias and non-LO Latios. But yeah, Azumarill can't really switch in on the psyshock for either Definitely disagree with moving up Latias. Already been said it's pursuit bait, so many setup opportunities, etc etc. Perfectly fine where it is.
Okay, I've been lurking on this thread since XY started, and I think I feel comfortable enough to make a post. First of all, I agree with all changes that are to be discussed, except Mega Houndoom rising to C+. Many have already stated that MegaDoom is only threatening under Sun, and with the only OU setters of this type of weather being the other mega, Zard Y or the mediocre Ninetales, you'll rarely see a Mega Houndoom you can't handle. On top of this, MegaDoom cant compare niche-wise to Shuckle, or Klefki, or really much of C+.
I'd also like to make a nomination. Sableye to B-, specifically for its spinblocking ability. With Aegi gone, the only ghost even in OU is Gengar, who doesn't feel comfortable switching into the 3 most common OU spinners, Excadrill, Starmie, and even Mega Blastoise if you want to go that route. Since Sableye can be EV'd specially or physically, it could spinblock anything you want, though physically defensive is usually better, since exca is still the most common. However, this isn't all Sableye can do. With Prankster, and an awesome typing, Sableye has mountains of utility. Priority taunt stops set up, and hazard setters cold. Prankster WoW can screw up a DD sweep from Gyara (Mega or not), TTar, or Dnite. Or just to weaken powerful physical attackers like Terrakion and Azumarill. Throw in priority Recover, STAB Foul Play and Knock Off, and immunities to Psychic, Fighting, and Normal, and a plethora of other options, and you've got a nice Pokemon on your hands. Not to mention that the physically defensive spread, is a nice answer to MegaCross and Megacham, 2 physical monsters who love a post-Aegi/ meta.
But, it's not without flaws, Sableye takes hits like a wet paper bag, when its not invested, and is blown away by Keldeo, MGarde, and Lando when it opts physically defensive. But I believe that its positive traits allow it to perform well in this metagame, at least enough to warrant B-.
Houndoom is the best special-attacking mega stall breaker. The only other one is Gardevoir, who is pretty good but can be played around.
Houndoom gets great coverage with just his STABs, which lets him run both taunt and a boosting move to break stall. Gardevoir needs hyper voice as a main STAB, then both psyshock and focus blast as coverage, otherwise either Heatran or Venusaur will wall you depending on which one of those you didn't choose. This means Gard has to choose between taunt and a boosting move -- just taunt means Heatran and Venusaur can hit you back pretty hard since you don't OHKO (and in Heatran's case, you might miss a few times), but just calm mind means you're vulnerable to status.
As a special attacking mega, CharY is better than both of these guys because he handles more threats overall. But mega Houndoom is better against full stall because of taunt and nasty plot. Stall is a common play style at the top of the ladder, and having a stall breaker who has a high speed stat and can actually do something against offense (unlike, say, Heracross) is great.
His ability being solar power is kind of a drag, but at least you can use it to your advantage every once in a while when the other team has a CharY. Keldeo has a 100% useless ability, yet he's doing pretty good.
Can we just make this happen, remove it that is? What does Haxorus even legitimately do? Yeah Mold Breaker, whoopdie doo. We have m-gyarados, Excadrill, and to a lesser extent M-Ampharos which are just way better overall for that. I mean I guess if you wanted that niche role that Haxorus has then I guess sure use it but does it really do anything in OU?
Haxorus is also a decent stallbreaker thanks to swords dance, taunt, and mold breaker. Not outstanding by any means, but enough to warrant D or C- Rank.
Ok,so i'll say a bit of my opinions,i'm a bit lame so sorry if i am seriously wrong. Heatran
A+---->A Rank
Heatran doesn't deserve the A+ Rank imo.It is threatened out by a lot of top threats like azumarill,keldeo,landorus and excadrill while pokes that heatran walls have some way to threaten it(charizard x has earthquake,thundurus runs focus blast and m-mawile has focus punch).The metagame just has so much pokemon to threaten out heatran and i'm not sure if it deserves the A+Rank.
Dragonite
A------>A+ Rank
As much as i hate dragonite,i have to say that he is an amazing pokemon.The choice band set is hella strong,benefitting so much pokemon like charizard-x,mega t-tar and mega gyarados.The Dragon dance set in the other hand is also difficult to handle as dragonite's bulk will allow him to set up at least one boost.Dragonite is also hard to revenge kill unlike stuff like mega x and mega pinsir because it has extreme speed to outspeed and probably KO them.Predicting the wrong set will severly hurt momentrum and with so many hazard removers laying on the A+ Rank(latios,latias and excadrill),activating multiscale isn't a difficult set.I think dragonite deserves A+rank.
Mandibuzz
A------>A-Rank
Aegislash isn't in the tier any more and currently all the S ranks apart from charizard x(who will also do massive damage to it)threatens it.There are also a lot good hazard removers in the tier like lati twins and excadrill as well as the rising star starmie.
Tyranitar
A------->A+ Rank
Most people agree with this,so do i.
Diggersby
-A------>B+ Rank
There exists a lot of amazing wall breakers since the aegislash ban.Diggersby also loses one of it's niches which is OHKOing aegislash.
Too lazy to write the rest in details
Starapator -B---->B+ Rank
Haxorus -C----->D Rank / Un Ranked
Mega Houndoom C---->Stay on C Rank
Doublade D----->C Rank / C- Rank
Espeon C+------>C- Rank
This is a small niche, but it is one of the best dragons to use in a 3dragon drag mag core... So that's something I guess... I don't know if that warrants a rank but when played right with Magnezone the choice band set cleaves holes for sweepers to abuse. Dragonite is usually better but it can help other dragons I suppose.
After Aegislash's ban and the inevitable Mawilite's ban (it will happen soon), I believe some things should change:
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Gardevoir (Mega): A- -----> A
Mega Gardevoir definitly got more space in the XY OU Metagame after Aegislash's ban (I peaked #1 in the XY OU Suspect Ladder using it in some games) and will get even more with the coming Mawilite's ban. It has strong Special Attack and Special Defense, ok speed and powerful moves. Wish Aegislash gone, it doesn't even need to run Shadow Ball anymore.
PS: It's possible to run a Timid Nature or Modest with some bulky depending on the team.
It is also possible to run Hidden Power Fire over Focus Blast or Calm Mind.
It also wins 1v1 agains lots of common XY OU pokémons (Mega Charizard X, Keldeo, Landorus-I, Thundurus-I, Garchomp, Greninja, Mega Gyarados, Latios, Latias, Mega Tyranitar, Mega Venusaur, Mandibuzz, Rotom-W, Heracross, Amoonguss, Chansey, Blissey, Breloom), can OHKO Mega Scizor in the switch with Hidden Power Fire, OHKO Ferrothorn in the switch with +1 Focus Blast or just burn both with Will-O-Wisp, pretty much removing them from the game.
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 303-357 (101 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 288-339 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 40+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 404-476 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Gardevoir Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 344-408 (100 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 316-372 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
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Heatran: A+ -----> A (or even A-)
Heatran is definitely losing an important niche after Mawile's ban and already lost a bit after Aegislash's ban. It loses 1v1 against lots of popular XY OU pokémons (Azumarill, Landorus-I, Landorus-T, Mega Charizard X with Earthquake, Keldeo, Rotom-W, Excadrill, Garchomp, Greninja, Gyarados, Mega Gyarados, Earthquake Latios, Mega Pinsir, Mega Tyranitar, Earthquake Mega Venusaur, Earthquake Dragonite, Hippowdon, Mamoswine, Terrakion, Diggersby, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Kyurem-B, Manaphy, Politoed, Kingdra, Kabutops, Suicune, Slowbro, Quagsire, Blissey, Chansey, Conkeldurr, Earthquake Mega Aerodactyl, Rhyperior, Mega Blastoise, etc), not considering gimmick specific movesets like Scarf with Hidden Power Ice or bulky with Torment. It even fails to check CM Magic Guard Clefable without Roar or even with Roar if it's last pokémon Clefable and does't even switch on common pokémon like Mega Scizor (it hates Superpower and Knock Off) and Mew (it hates being Knocked off).
It's usage already has decreased a lot, since I only faced two Heatran in around 100 games I had in the XY OU Suspect Ladder.
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Medicham (Mega): A- -----> A
I believe Mega Medicham's usage will rise a bit in after Mawile's ban. And with Aegislash gone, it doesn't need to run Fire Punch anymore.
Althouth it's a lot less bulky than Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham is faster and has priority.
Medicham @ Medichamite
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Fake Out
PS: It's possible to run an Adamant Nature and/or Bullet Punch over Fake Out depending on the team.
