ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

[Celever]

(Approved by Stellar and DHR-107)
(Huge thanks to Colonel M and Its_A_Random for helping build the tier list, and to Aaron's Aron for helping out with some mechanics pre-release)​

Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire In-game Tier List

​

What is an in-game tier list?

In-game tier lists rank Pokémon on their usefulness and efficientness throughout an in-game playthrough (from the start of the game to the first viewing credits).

What are the tiers?

In this in-game tier list there will be 5 tiers. If there is need for new tiers, though, they will be created. The current tiers are:
S-Rank
A-Rank
B-Rank
C-Rank
D-Rank
E-Rank
Untested

Why is a Pokémon in a certain tier?

A Pokémon's rank is decided by these 6 factors:
Availability - How early is the Pokémon found? Does it require considerable backtracking or HM moves? The earlier you find a Pokémon, the better they are in this category. Pokémon that require considerable backtracking and/or HM moves are generally lower than other Pokémon.

Typing - What is the Pokémon's typing? How good is it in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire? The better a Pokémon's typing for Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, the higher the rank.

Stats - What are the Pokémon's stats? How good are they for efficient in-game runs? The better a Pokémon's stats for in-game runs, the higher they will be ranked. This is probably the most important category, as it can override the rest of the categories if the stats are good enough (e.g Groudon and Kyogre) but can also cripple Pokémon (e.g Luvdisc). Defensive Pokémon are generally ranked lower than offensive Pokémon, as they are less efficient.

Movepool - What moves does the Pokémon get? Pokémon with a wider range of useful moves are generally ranked higher than Pokémon with shallower movesets.

Major Battles - How does the Pokémon fare in major battles, such as Gym Leaders, fights against your rival and criminal team admins/leaders? The better a Pokémon does against these major fights, the higher they are ranked.

Other - Other aspects of a Pokémon. Examples are megas, primal reversions or abilities which can play a small role in a Pokémon's placement. Occasionally a random "other" thing solely dictates a Pokémon's rank (e.g Slakoth is bottom tier solely because of Truant. If it didn't have Truant, it would probably be high or top).

For further tiering guidance, please read post #324.

What Pokémon are being excluded from this tier list?

If a Pokémon is any of the below criteria, they will be excluded from this tier list:

• They come from an event

• They cannot be caught until post game

• They are not available for capture in Omega Ruby or Alpha Sapphire

Furthermore, Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire introduced the PokéNax Plus. This has a handy feature of letting you find Pokémon at a higher level than the others in that area, Pokémon with their Hidden Ability, or for their first moveslot to have a random egg move instead of what it should be. Excluding the forced Poochyena early on in the game, Pokémon with egg moves will not be tiered. This is because a good egg move, for many Pokémon, will make them a much higher tier than what they are right now. If you talk about Pokémon being a certain rank because of an egg move or Hidden Ability, I will ask one of OI's lovely moderators to delete your post.

Everything else will be ranked, though. Even the worst of the worst, fully-evolved-but-should-really-be-LC shitmons.

The Tier List Itself:

S-Tier

-S-

Abra (Alakazam)

Latias (AS)

Latios (OR)

Magikarp

Marill

Mudkip

Torchic

A-Tier

-A-

Absol

Carvanha

Corphish

Electrike

Groudon

Heracross

Kyogre

Magnemite

Makuhita

Mawile

Meditite

Numel

Ralts (Gardevoir)

Shroomish

Treecko

Wingull

Zangoose

B-Rank

-B-

Abra (No Trade)

Geodude (Golem)

Lotad (AS)

Machop (Machamp)

Pikachu (Cosplay)

Pinsir

Psyduck

Roselia

Seedot (OR)

Skarmory

Spoink

Staryu

Surskit

Tailow

Tentacool

Torkoal

Trapinch

Tropius

Whismur

Wurmple (Beautifly)

Zubat

C-Rank

-C-

Aron

Baltoy

Barboach

Cacnea

Chinchou

Doduo

Geodude (No trade)

Girafarig

Goldeen

Gulpin

Kecleon

Koffing

Machop (No Trade)

Natu

Nosepass

Oddish (Bellossom)

Oddish (Vileplume)

Phanpy

Pikachu (Other)

Poochyena (Other)

Rhyhorn

Sandshrew

Seviper

Shuppet

Slakoth

Slugma

Snorunt (Glalie)

Spheal

Swablu

Voltorb

Vulpix

Wurmple (Dustox)

Zigzagoon

D-Rank

-D-

Anorith

Bagon

Castform

Chimecho

Clamperl (Gorebyss)

Clamperl (Huntail)

Duskull

Feebas

Grimer

Horsea

Illumise

Jigglypuff

Lileep

Lunatone (AS)

Minun

Nincada (Ninjask)

Nincada (Shedinja)

Plusle

Relicanth

Sableye

Solrock (OR)

Volbeat

Wailmer

E-Rank

-E-

Clamperl (No trade)

Corsola

Luvdisc

Ralts (Gallade)

Regice

Regirock

Registeel

Skitty

Snorunt (Froslass)

Spinda

Wobbuffet

When starting a new discussion over a Pokémon placement, please use this formatting (not necessary, though):

<B2/W2 Sprite of Pokémon> (all sprites can be found here: http://sprites.pokecheck.org/?gen=3&)
Availability:
Typing:
Stats:
Movepool:
Major Battles:
Other:

(These aren't the official writeups, it just gives some structure to your nominations).

And finally, a couple of final guidelines to follow:

• Unlike with Viabilitiy Rankings, we DO NOT base a Pokémon's ranking by comparing it with other Pokémon. Ralts (Gardevoir) is not Bottom Tier because Abra (Alakazam) does its job better -- in fact, Ralts (Gardevoir) is ranked in S-Rank with Abra (Alakazam)! Pokémon are ranked based off of their OWN merit, not how the shape up compared to the rest of the Pokémon.

• Try not to factor leaving Exp. Share on when nominating. This is because the increase in growth over time means you could easily out-level other opponents by at least 10 levels later in the game, and of course Pokémon are going to do a better job against something when they are that much higher. This causes a bias that means everything gets tiered higher, and I want a more accurate reflection on its performance. You could try to extrapolate though.

• Super Training and Pokémon Amie are inefficient, and will not be considered.

• We will assume that all Pokémon have a 100% encounter rate thanks to the new feature on the DexNav for now. As I play through the game I will make a spreadsheet of all trainers and their Pokémon, which will give us a clear picture of where this new mechanic will be handy.

• Battle items (X Attack, X Defense, etc.) ARE allowed and may be considered when tiering.

I have said these rules elsewhere in the OP, but I will reiterate them here as they are very important:

• DexNav Pokémon do not count. Egg moves, Hidden Abilities and unnaturally high levels are all ignored in this tier list. The exception to this rule is the forced Poochyena near the start of the game, as it is forced, and the fang is not random. If you chose Mudkip, Poochyena will have Fire Fang, if you chose Treecko, Poochyena will have Thunder Fang, and if you chose Torchic, Poochyena will have Ice Fang. This even takes the randomness out of this encounter.

• Only Pokémon native to the Hoenn region will be considered.

And... Well, that's about everything! Enjoy this thread, and follow the rules! ^_^

Thank you, Lucchini, for creating a compendium of useful info pertaining to ORAS here.

 

[Celever]

Reserved

(This post will be a list of positive changes in the tier list should you happen to find a certain egg move. This list is separate from the actual tier list due to the randomness of these encounters.)

This will be posted after the actual Tier List is finalised.

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Currently suggesting many changes... edit, edit, edit.

Corphish
Availability: 5 Badges (or whenever you get the Good Rod) - I feel like this isn't to bad, but it doesn't come early.
Typing: Water (Crawdaunt is also Dark)
Stats: Pretty good
Movepool: Crabhammer is all you need. Pretty good though.
Major Battles: Good enough.
Other: Really the reason I feel like this should be A instead of S is its experience group. It is in the highest group and can take a while to level up compared to the other Pokemon. Perhaps this is just a nitpick though. Maybe if it came earlier it would be okay, but between the two I think it should probably be A. I do think it is great though. :)

Meditite
I think avalibility holds it back a lot. You can't get it until Mt. Pyre, which is reallly late in the game. It does get Hi Jump Kick really early, but I don't know if that offsets the avalibility. Maybe it could stay A, I dunno. This one doesn't bother me as much as others.

Bagon
You can't get this guy until you have 8 badges. Sure, it is super strong, especially evolved, but the game is basically over at that point. That makes it C at the most for me, but probably D.

Dustox
Weak. WEAK. It doesn't even got moves to use either, aside from a few TMs. Get this thing out of B and into D where it belongs.

Wingull
It isn't bad, but I don't think it quite stands up for itself when the stronger opponents really start to come into play. I think the B suits it well, because it is average, but isn't great.

 

[Ender]

Just a quick question, if we are proposing a list based purely on efficiency, why would we not consider the exp share? That item epitomizes everything about efficiency, is included in the game, and is in every respect "legal". If someone is doing a runthrough where they're just trying to get to a point where theny can re-reset for Thundurus or something, it wouldnt be smart to not use exp share. If you're just playing through for fun (ie don't want to use the exp share to make the game less difficult), chances are you aren't going to be religiously following the tier list in the first place anyway. I'm not sure what you guys did for XY, but it just doesn't make sense to me that we would ignore something that increases efficiency literally five-fold.

 

[Celever]

IAR put it well in the XY tier list:

- Try not to factor leaving Exp. Share on when nominating. This is because the increase in growth over time means you could easily out-level other opponents by at least 10 levels later in the game, and of course Pokémon are going to do a better job against something when they are that much higher. This causes a bias that means everything gets tiered higher, and I want a more accurate reflection on its performance. You could try to extrapolate though.

 

[Ender]

IAR put it well in the XY tier list:

Okay cool. Thanks for copying that for me!

If possible could this be edited into the OP so that if others who didn't do tiering for XY are confused (like me) they know the rationale behind the decision?

 

[Colonel M]

Since I was a huge contributor to this I figured I would respond a bit:

I think avalibility holds it back a lot. You can't get it until Mt. Pyre, which is reallly late in the game. It does get Hi Jump Kick really early, but I don't know if that offsets the avalibility. Maybe it could stay A, I dunno. This one doesn't bother me as much as others.

Mt Pyre is roughly transitioning from mid game to late. The big thing is Huge Power Force Palm and a plethora of other attacks keeps it relevant. Eviolite conveniently comes roughly the same time Meditite does as well. It does a superb job with Team Magma and Aqua - barring maybe Grimers / Koffings.

Its also fairly impressive once it evolves as it has access to its Mega Evolution.

It isn't bad, but I don't think it quite stands up for itself when the stronger opponents really start to come into play. I think the B suits it well, because it is average, but isn't great.

Wingull has the perk of transitioning into an HM slave. Granted it isnt the best at Surf, but it can still use other HMs effectively. I mean Sharpedo may be used in a realistic playthrough (its hella good).

 

[Aaron's Aron]

Since I was a huge contributor to this I figured I would respond a bit:

Mt Pyre is roughly transitioning from mid game to late. The big thing is Huge Power Force Palm and a plethora of other attacks keeps it relevant. Eviolite conveniently comes roughly the same time Meditite does as well. It does a superb job with Team Magma and Aqua - barring maybe Grimers / Koffings.

Its also fairly impressive once it evolves as it has access to its Mega Evolution.

Wingull has the perk of transitioning into an HM slave. Granted it isnt the best at Surf, but it can still use other HMs effectively. I mean Sharpedo may be used in a realistic playthrough (its hella good).

Yeah, I didn't mind Meditite as much. I just wanted to say that I at least thought that it might be a bit high. I was okay with that one though. As for Wingull, I totally forgot about being an HM slave! Now that you say that then of course. Thanks for the input. :)

 

[Ender]

I don't see Shroomish on here at all (maybe I'm blind). Anyways, you get it pretty early on, in Petalburg Woods before the first gym, which it's conveniently strong against (more so against Geodude than Nosepass). It's a pain to level up in the beginning (even with Mega Drain at 17 it's only okay), but it evolves super early and dominates stuff as a Breloom with a solid movepool and great stats. I think it should be in A, but it's less than stellar pre-evo phase means it might need to be knocked to B.

If you want it in your format:

Shroomish
Availability: Before the first gym
Typing: Grass (Fighting)
Stats: Mediocre until evolving at lvl 23, when they become great
Movepool: Can get by until it evolves and then it's fairly wide and useful
Major Battles: Helpful against first gym and once it evolves it can pummel all of the normal types you see everywhere too
Other: Unfortunately it won't end up with Spore, but it's level up pool is good and it gets a lot of nice TMs (including Rock Tomb from the first gym)

A, maybe B

Edit: Why is Treecko in B tier? Not necessarily questioning it, just would like to know why.

 

[Detective Barricade]

Marill
Availability: Route 117 is the earliest it can be found.
Typing: Water/Fairy grants some handy resistance to several types, and an immunity to Dragon, but weak to Electric, Grass, and Poison.
Stats: Great defenses, (100/80/80 as Azumarill) but is slow. Huge Power compensates its otherwise weak Attack.
Movepool: Aqua Tail/Waterfall and Play Rough by level 25 are virtually all it needs. Can learn Surf and Strength if needed.
Major Battles: Easily bests Team Magma/Aqua and Flannery with its STAB moves, as well as Sydney and Drake, but should avoid Wattson.
Additional comments: It is highly recommended to obtain a Marill with Huge Power. With it, Marill is an excellent choice for efficiently-minded runs.

 

[atsync]

I can find Aron on the list either.

Anyway good job putting this together. I'm still not finished but I've been using Swampert/Breloom/Cosplay Pikachu/Sableye/Latias/Castform and I'd say their positions are about right (well, depending on where Shroomish goes - I lean more towards A). I'll try do some proper write-ups later.

 

[Karxrida]

I just want to point out that National Dex mons can be found right after capturing/defeating Kyogre or Groudon in the Cave of Origin, even if you haven't talked to Professor Birch yet. I can't think of any that would be higher than D-Rank off the top of my head unless you can find them in Victory Road, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

I also think Treecko should be A-Rank. It gets good STAB much earlier this time around (Mega Drain at level 13, Giga Drain at 19 if you hold off evolving it, Leaf Blade at 23 as Grovyle), Sceptile gets Dual Chop upon evolving so it has secondary STAB to abuse while Mega Evolved. You can buy Focus Blast in the Lilycove Department Store or teach it Earthquake so it isn't dead weight against Steven like in the originals, and it murders Team Aqua when playing AS.

 

[Colonel M]

There is one thing I agree on though:

You can't get this guy until you have 8 badges. Sure, it is super strong, especially evolved, but the game is basically over at that point. That makes it C at the most for me, but probably D.

Definitely D. At Steven I ended around 45-50 without EXP Share. It is strong but just comes so late it hurts.

Other notes:

- Sceptile is already S. EDIT: okay supposedly it is B. I will have to look into that.
- If Aron is missing it should be C.
- There are no hidden mons in Victory Road (Natl Dex mons).
- National Dex mons come too little too late. Unless they are the legendaries theyre E.

 

[canasian]

I would say that Clefairy at least is worth more than E-rank, yes it comes very late but with Moonblast, Shadow Ball and Flamethrower (calm mind or moonlight in the last moveslot) single-handedly beats the whole e4 alone, and with very little grinding

 

[Stellar]

I'd suggest using Smogon's mini sprites in place of the BW/XY animations.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/pokemonname.png

Here's my support for Skarmory's place in B rank. It's pretty detailed and I'm amazing so it can likely be used as the official write-up later.

Rank: B
Availability: Route 113
Typing: [Steel / Flying] Skarmory's typing leaves it with very few weaknesses and a good number of resistances. Normal- and Flying-type attacks are very common among early- and middle-game Pokémon, meaning Skarmory will often be taking reduced damage. Because Skarmory has few weaknesses, it is very easy to predict when the opponent will use a Super Effective attack. Generally speaking, only Pokémon with STAB will be using Electric and Fire attacks in-game. If you see a Manectric or a Camerupt, just switch out.
Stats: [65 / 80 / 140 / 40 / 70 / 70] Skarmory has very good stats for a Pokémon available before the fourth gym. Its high Defense proves invaluable against many of the game's common Pokémon such as Mightyena, while also letting Skarmory tank attacks from big hitters like Aggron, Metagross, and Salamence. 70 Speed is perfectly workable in-game, where you will often have a slight level advantage and be facing Pokémon with low IVs. While nothing to write home about, Skarmory's base 80 Attack is enough to 2HKO most Pokémon used by regular trainers. With its good Defense, Skarmory can also afford to spend a turn boosting its power with Swords Dance.
Movepool: Skarmory's level-up movepool is very shallow — you will rarely be using moves Skarmory learns naturally. This isn't as big of a problem as it seems; many of Skarmory's best attacks appear as TMs before or slightly after its capture. TM40 Aerial Ace can be purchased in Mauville City and TM51 Steel Wing is given to you as part of a mandatory plot sequence. TM75 Swords Dance can be obtained almost immediately after Skarmory's capture for free in Lavaridge. Winona, the sixth gym leader, gifts you TM19 Roost which can be used to save healing items. Feint is one of Skarmory's only useful level-up options, allowing it to pick off faster, weakened foes or to break through Protect-spamming Pokémon like Meditite. In terms of Flying-STAB options, Skarmory can stick with Aerial Ace or use HM02 Fly for both utility and power. It is possible to obtain both Drill Peck and Brave Bird using the Dex Nav feature; however, these moves require inefficient time investment.
Major Battles: Skarmory will not participate in Flannery's gym battle immediately following its capture, but it is incredibly useful against Norman, Winona, and Liza/Tate. With Swords Dance, Skarmory can also hold its own against Wallace and Archie. Maxie is a bit of a struggle, but Skarmory can take out Mightyena and Crobat before switching out against Camerupt. Skarmory takes very little damage from Elite Four members Sidney or Phoebe, but must be wary of Phoebe's myriad status-inflicting moves. Drake's Altaria, Flygon (without Flamethrower), and Salamence pose no immediate threats to Skarmory, but Skarmory may struggle against Drake's second Flygon (with Flamethrower) and his Kingdra. Skarmory can set up with Swords Dance against Steven, who has no Super Effective attacks and very few regularly effective attacks with which to hit Skarmory.
Other: Skarmory is a very middling Pokémon: at no point in the game does Skarmory underperform, but it also never truly shines. Its lower Speed means it will sometimes be KOed before it can attack, and its lower Attack means Skarmory may sometimes need to spend a turn using Swords Dance. Skarmory's main utility comes from its useful resistances against a few of the game's major fights and its ability to Fly until you reach Sootopolis and obtain the Eon Flute.

 

[CTNC]

I'm far from an expert an ranking Pokemon for in game use, but I'll give my opinions based on my Omega Ruby Nuzloke.

Magnemite
Availability: Route 110 in swarms at earliest, although New Mauville seems like a good place to get one.
Typing: Electric/Steel is about as good as it gets for.
Stats: (25/35/70/95/55/40) --Level 30--> (50/60/95/120/70/70) --Level up at New Mauvill--> (70/70/115/130/90/60) An amazing mix of bulk and power with passable speed.
Movepool: Poor, but Volt Switch is good enough until you get Flash Cannon at Level 33.
Major Battles: It OHKOs Team Magma/Aqua's Zubat and Aqua's Carvaha and can easily take on their Poochyena and Mightyena, but hates Magma's Numel. Magneton is excellent against Every gym starting at the fifth one and the second half of the Elite Four and The Champion. You should use something else for Watson because you don't get its best move until you beet him. Using Magmemite against Flanery seems like a bad idea, but you could Volt Switch to a Fire Resist for good, and almost free, damage.
Additional comments: This is coming from someone who didn't evolve it into magnezone until right before the Elite Four. A rank almost feels like an insult based on my experience, but its understandable since it seems bad until after the third gym and has a bad match up with the fourth. It seems like a good idea to catch it at New Mauvill instead of Route 110 so you don't have to level it up during the parts when it's not too useful.

Dustox
Weak. WEAK. It doesn't even got moves to use either, aside from a few TMs. Get this thing out of B and into D where it belongs.

My first thought was, "D! I should be higher than D!" but I thought about it and realized its C rank at best.

Dustox
Rank: D (Might be C if you're feeling generous?)
Availability: Route 101 is the earliest Wurmple can be found. Route 104 is the earliest Cascoon an be found.
Typing: Bug/Poison is a surprising good defensive typing in the early game.
Stats: Once it reaches Level 10, it has stats that are very good early game, but okay at best mid game and poor late game
Movepool: Average, but reliant on TM76. Gust and Confusion should allow it pull its weight until you get to Sailport and buy TM76 Struggle Bug for $5000.
Major Battles: Good for Team Magma/Aqua's Dark types, but hates Magama's Numel and both's Zubat. It curbstomps the Fighting Gym and can take on the Electric gym with enough healing items and Struggle Bug if it has to, which it shoudn't. It's horrible against all other gyms.
Additional comments: Awesome power and bulk in early game, but should be replaced mid to late game. Also, I don't know why I wrote a review for something everyone agrees is D rank, but I wrote it, so I'm posting it.

 

[Karxrida]

I'd suggest using Smogon's mini sprites in place of the BW/XY animations.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/media/sprites/xyicons/pokemonname.png

Here's my support for Skarmory's place in B rank. It's pretty detailed and I'm amazing so it can likely be used as the official write-up later.

Rank: B
Availability: Route 113
Typing: [Steel / Flying] Skarmory's typing leaves it with very few weaknesses and a good number of resistances. Normal- and Flying-type attacks are very common among early- and middle-game Pokémon, meaning Skarmory will often be taking reduced damage. Because Skarmory has few weaknesses, it is very easy to predict when the opponent will use a Super Effective attack. Generally speaking, only Pokémon with STAB will be using Electric and Fire attacks in-game. If you see a Manectric or a Camerupt, just switch out.
Stats: [65 / 80 / 140 / 40 / 70 / 70] Skarmory has very good stats for a Pokémon available before the fourth gym. Its high Defense proves invaluable against many of the game's common Pokémon such as Mightyena, while also letting Skarmory tank attacks from big hitters like Aggron, Metagross, and Salamence. 70 Speed is perfectly workable in-game, where you will often have a slight level advantage and be facing Pokémon with low IVs. While nothing to write home about, Skarmory's base 80 Attack is enough to 2HKO most Pokémon used by regular trainers. With its good Defense, Skarmory can also afford to spend a turn boosting its power with Swords Dance.
Movepool: Skarmory's level-up movepool is very shallow — you will rarely be using moves Skarmory learns naturally. This isn't as big of a problem as it seems; many of Skarmory's best attacks appear as TMs before or slightly after its capture. TM40 Aerial Ace can be purchased in Mauville City and TM51 Steel Wing is given to you as part of a mandatory plot sequence. TM75 Swords Dance can be obtained almost immediately after Skarmory's capture for free in Lavaridge. Winona, the sixth gym leader, gifts you TM19 Roost which can be used to save healing items. Feint is one of Skarmory's only useful level-up options, allowing it to pick off faster, weakened foes or to break through Protect-spamming Pokémon like Meditite. In terms of Flying-STAB options, Skarmory can stick with Aerial Ace or use HM02 Fly for both utility and power. It is possible to obtain both Drill Peck and Brave Bird using the Dex Nav feature; however, these moves require inefficient time investment.
Major Battles: Skarmory will not participate in Flannery's gym battle immediately following its capture, but it is incredibly useful against Norman, Winona, and Liza/Tate. With Swords Dance, Skarmory can also hold its own against Wallace and Archie. Maxie is a bit of a struggle, but Skarmory can take out Mightyena and Crobat before switching out against Camerupt. Skarmory takes very little damage from Elite Four members Sidney or Phoebe, but must be wary of Phoebe's myriad status-inflicting moves. Drake's Altaria, Flygon (without Flamethrower), and Salamence pose no immediate threats to Skarmory, but Skarmory may struggle against Drake's second Flygon (with Flamethrower) and his Kingdra. Skarmory can set up with Swords Dance against Steven, who has no Super Effective attacks and very few regularly effective attacks with which to hit Skarmory.
Other: Skarmory is a very middling Pokémon: at no point in the game does Skarmory underperform, but it also never truly shines. Its lower Speed means it will sometimes be KOed before it can attack, and its lower Attack means Skarmory may sometimes need to spend a turn using Swords Dance. Skarmory's main utility comes from its useful resistances against a few of the game's major fights and its ability to Fly until you reach Sootopolis and obtain the Eon Flute.

Prideful much? :P

I honestly wouldn't call the DexNav completely inefficient, since it's possible to get a good Egg move with only a few minutes of investment and a little luck.

 

[Stellar]

I didn't say "completely inefficient." It requires time investment and therefore is less efficient (i.e., inefficient). Nothing about my statement is false. The point of this thread is efficiency so Dex Nav didn't factor into the rating I gave Skarmory, but I thought it should be noted that those two moves are possibilities.

 

[Codraroll]

Quick question: Why are all the Pokémon tiered already? Are those just the RSE Tiers copied from an earlier thread, have some other forums reached a consensus on ORAS efficiency already, were they created during a hectic IRC session I missed, or are those just on-a-whim suggestions?

 

[Colonel M]

I would say that Clefairy at least is worth more than E-rank, yes it comes very late but with Moonblast, Shadow Ball and Flamethrower (calm mind or moonlight in the last moveslot) single-handedly beats the whole e4 alone, and with very little grinding

Looks like Clefairy come at Level 40. Ill look onto it. May be able to buy C - D at worst.

 

[thelaytonmobile]

I would agree that Treecko is rather good this game (so far). It learns Leaf Blade crazy early, and then wrecks everything for quite a while. It can be taught Low Sweep, and take out Wattson's gym despite not having super-effective moves.

 

[Colonel M]

Okay. Finally I have access to my computer keyboard. Let's get cracking.

*cracks neck*

First off let's respond to this question!

Quick question: Why are all the Pokémon tiered already? Are those just the RSE Tiers copied from an earlier thread, have some other forums reached a consensus on ORAS efficiency already, were they created during a hectic IRC session I missed, or are those just on-a-whim suggestions?

Allow me to be the bearer of this question.

Roughly a week or two before ORAS's release I was attempting to scramble an early tier list. So what I created was a beta tier list with:

- The knowledge I remember from routes
- Guessing on some TM availability (particularly Gym TMs - I actually was only a gym off from my predictions. I predicted AAce from Winona but I did think Roost was also a possibility).
- Double-checking locations of Pokemon via past knowledge and this
- Double-checking Pokemon learnsets via this
- Double-checking trainer Pokemon via past knowledge and this

As you can see I had quite a bit of information. There were a few things that were missing such as Cosplay Pikachu's exact location, the news of being able to get Lati@s after Norman, and a few other minor details (also catching Magikarp at Level 15 didn't seem to be possible but I digress I might've been unlucky). I then attempted to tier the Pokemon. When I alerted Stellar that I wanted to do the ORAS tier list he explained to me that Celever was head of the list. So obviously I alerted Celever of the list and showed some of the information available to us at the time and then progressed from there. Once the game was released I was able to play it and add more input (such as Cosplay Pikachu, Lati@s, and a few other notes). We then showed it to IAR for third opinions and such.

Remember when tier lists come out they aren't always accurate. When X&Y was released we didn't really have much of a ROM dump like ORAS did, so creating a tier list required playing through the game or glancing over what other people found. Though the latter was also done with ORAS, the former was easier since we had a tremendous amount of information with the dumps. Bear in mind I'm not taking full credit for any of this - Celever definitely deserves credit for his feedback and writing the OP with his own modifications, IAR with feedback, the people with the data dumps, etc.

======

Let's move along shall we?

Prideful much? :P

I honestly wouldn't call the DexNav completely inefficient, since it's possible to get a good Egg move with only a few minutes of investment and a little luck.

Luck is something that is pretty inefficient. When it comes to the DexNav you are going for a less efficient route finding a Pokemon with a good move. Barring very rare cases efficiency is lost by spamming the DexNav to find Pokemon with rare egg moves. That isn't to say that a person may not ever find it on their first try - just the chances of it are unlikely. There's a reason why we're attempting to work on a DexNav list and Stellar mentioning it in his write-up was excellent.

Stellar I'm not going to quote everything you wrote, but yes the write-up for Skarmory is spot-on to what I thought. Mention that Skarmory does have access to some other moves like Rock Tomb and Rock Slide. It's minor but it does help flesh out its movepool. Swords Dance too to give it some more offensive presence. ^_^ Also minor but it can learn Cut, Fly, and Rock Smash to be able to transition to an HM Slave if you want.

I don't see Shroomish on here at all (maybe I'm blind). Anyways, you get it pretty early on, in Petalburg Woods before the first gym, which it's conveniently strong against (more so against Geodude than Nosepass). It's a pain to level up in the beginning (even with Mega Drain at 17 it's only okay), but it evolves super early and dominates stuff as a Breloom with a solid movepool and great stats. I think it should be in A, but it's less than stellar pre-evo phase means it might need to be knocked to B.

If you want it in your format:

Shroomish
Availability: Before the first gym
Typing: Grass (Fighting)
Stats: Mediocre until evolving at lvl 23, when they become great
Movepool: Can get by until it evolves and then it's fairly wide and useful
Major Battles: Helpful against first gym and once it evolves it can pummel all of the normal types you see everywhere too
Other: Unfortunately it won't end up with Spore, but it's level up pool is good and it gets a lot of nice TMs (including Rock Tomb from the first gym)

A, maybe B

I can agree with B maybe. Shroomish does nicely against Roxanne. It doesn't have a great moment with Brawly but it does nicely within the beach since there are a lot of Water-types (or Azurill which does crap to Shroomish). Once its Breloom a lot of its issues are fixed. Mauville is a good time for it too because it has access to Low Sweep and Power-up Punch. Then you have Rock Tomb from Roxanne too. Only things that suck are Seed Bomb is late (Level 44) and Sky Uppercut being one of its stronger moves (Level 39).

Obviously this would have to be expanded more. For example optional DexNav moves are good for Breloom - Wake-up Slap, Bullet Seed, Seed Bomb, and Drain Punch are nice for Breloom. It arguably has one of the better types against Team Aqua too (Grimer / Zubat suck but there are workarounds for Zubat).

=====

Also I really think Treecko should be at the least an A.

I know I may be seen as crazy but we have to remember that Treecko has almost auto-win capability with Gym 1 on Mega Drain alone and potential evolution. Brawly is eh, but Grovyle has access to Low Sweep with Wattson and a resistance to Volt Switch. It can sort of dent Flannery since Rock Tomb is available to Grovyle (as is Dig) and it should get through most of the Fire-types barring Torkoal and -maybe- Numel. It should do okay versus Winona too since, despite the Flying-type weakness, it can get through Pelipper without too much issue and Altaria is prone to Mega Sceptile's Dual Chop.

Honestly it isn't the strongest Pokemon and I can see why questioning it in S exists, but it being in B is pretty damn insulting too. Treecko has a couple hiccups along the ride but it is damn strong and has a versatile movepool to work around some of its issues.[/quote]

 

[Karxrida]

Okay. Finally I have access to my computer keyboard. Let's get cracking.

*cracks neck*

First off let's respond to this question!

Allow me to be the bearer of this question.

Roughly a week or two before ORAS's release I was attempting to scramble an early tier list. So what I created was a beta tier list with:

- The knowledge I remember from routes
- Guessing on some TM availability (particularly Gym TMs - I actually was only a gym off from my predictions. I predicted AAce from Winona but I did think Roost was also a possibility).
- Double-checking locations of Pokemon via past knowledge and this
- Double-checking Pokemon learnsets via this
- Double-checking trainer Pokemon via past knowledge and this

As you can see I had quite a bit of information. There were a few things that were missing such as Cosplay Pikachu's exact location, the news of being able to get Lati@s after Norman, and a few other minor details (also catching Magikarp at Level 15 didn't seem to be possible but I digress I might've been unlucky). I then attempted to tier the Pokemon. When I alerted Stellar that I wanted to do the ORAS tier list he explained to me that Celever was head of the list. So obviously I alerted Celever of the list and showed some of the information available to us at the time and then progressed from there. Once the game was released I was able to play it and add more input (such as Cosplay Pikachu, Lati@s, and a few other notes). We then showed it to IAR for third opinions and such.

Remember when tier lists come out they aren't always accurate. When X&Y was released we didn't really have much of a ROM dump like ORAS did, so creating a tier list required playing through the game or glancing over what other people found. Though the latter was also done with ORAS, the former was easier since we had a tremendous amount of information with the dumps. Bear in mind I'm not taking full credit for any of this - Celever definitely deserves credit for his feedback and writing the OP with his own modifications, IAR with feedback, the people with the data dumps, etc.

======

Let's move along shall we?

Luck is something that is pretty inefficient. When it comes to the DexNav you are going for a less efficient route finding a Pokemon with a good move. Barring very rare cases efficiency is lost by spamming the DexNav to find Pokemon with rare egg moves. That isn't to say that a person may not ever find it on their first try - just the chances of it are unlikely. There's a reason why we're attempting to work on a DexNav list and Stellar mentioning it in his write-up was excellent.

Stellar I'm not going to quote everything you wrote, but yes the write-up for Skarmory is spot-on to what I thought. Mention that Skarmory does have access to some other moves like Rock Tomb and Rock Slide. It's minor but it does help flesh out its movepool. Swords Dance too to give it some more offensive presence. ^_^ Also minor but it can learn Cut, Fly, and Rock Smash to be able to transition to an HM Slave if you want.

We always seem to zig-zagged about how rarity affects a Mon's tier listing. For example, Aerodactyl is S-Rank in XY despite being pretty rare to get an Old Amber from Rock Smashing, and Skarmory itself has a 5% encounter chance, which is pretty freaking rare. I don't think it'd be a huge stretch to take DexNav moves into account, especially since it's actually not that much of a time waster.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I'm not sure if Gardevoir should be S. While it got improved from XY as both a Ralts (Echoed Voice / Confusion / Disarming Voice / Egg Move at level 11!) and as a Kirlia (Psychic, Calm Mind and Magical Leaf at lv30), I think shit hits too hard in ORAS. There are simply too many physical neutral/SE moves before it becomes a Gardevoir, so it's dying too often for my taste.

Of course, once it evolves, it wrecks the whole game (fuck you E4). So I'm 100% fine with an A rank.

 

[Colonel M]

We always seem to zig-zagged about how rarity affects a Mon's tier listing. For example, Aerodactyl is S-Rank in XY despite being pretty rare to get an Old Amber from Rock Smashing, and Skarmory itself has a 5% encounter chance, which is pretty freaking rare. I don't think it'd be a huge stretch to take DexNav moves into account, especially since it's actually not that much of a time waster.

Consider it like this:

Finding an Aerodactyl is probably less time consuming than finding a Tailow with Brave Bird. Much less time consuming I would think. Besides unlike finding the first Skarmory you would probably be shuffling through about 6-7 Tailows (even accounting DexNav and forcing the find).

I'm not sure if Gardevoir should be S. While it got improved from XY as both a Ralts (Echoed Voice / Confusion / Disarming Voice / Egg Move at level 11!) and as a Kirlia (Psychic, Calm Mind and Magical Leaf at lv30), I think shit hits too hard in ORAS. There are simply too many physical neutral/SE moves before it becomes a Gardevoir, so it's dying too often for my taste.

Of course, once it evolves, it wrecks the whole game (fuck you E4). So I'm 100% fine with an A rank.

I thought about A myself. One advantage from XY Ralts transitioning to ORAS Ralts is that ORAS Ralts actually has a pivotal moment to shine (hello Brawly!) and, honestly, I disagree with the power creep. I found it fairly mild in ORAS in comparison to X&Y. Also don't forget Draining Kiss at Level 23 for Kirlia - it can help it out quite a bit.

Celever was a little more inclined to keeping it in S. I'm still on the fence honestly. It really does a decent number to a lot of Pokemon throughout the game though. But damn those Muks in AS surviving a Psychic and OHKOing Gardevoir with Gunk Shot...