ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

[Ender]

I can agree with B maybe. Shroomish does nicely against Roxanne. It doesn't have a great moment with Brawly but it does nicely within the beach since there are a lot of Water-types (or Azurill which does crap to Shroomish). Once its Breloom a lot of its issues are fixed. Mauville is a good time for it too because it has access to Low Sweep and Power-up Punch. Then you have Rock Tomb from Roxanne too. Only things that suck are Seed Bomb is late (Level 44) and Sky Uppercut being one of its stronger moves (Level 39).

It definitely seems like it's somewhere in limbo between A and B. Having only Mach Punch and Force Palm for STAB until fairly late (say gym 6-ish) definitely starts to hurt it, though it still gets decent coverage with Rock Tomb from 1st gym, though this also drops off in power until you get a stronger Rock attack (I forget where Rock Slide is and Stone Edge isn't great in-game due to low pp and accuracy). I don't feel extremely strongly one way or the other. I would urge us all to be conservative in our decisions though, since greater stratification on the top end is far more useful than stratification on the lower end (where people aren't going to be looking as often, and, thus, delineations need not be as stringent).

Obviously this would have to be expanded more. For example optional DexNav moves are good for Breloom - Wake-up Slap, Bullet Seed, Seed Bomb, and Drain Punch are nice for Breloom. It arguably has one of the better types against Team Aqua too (Grimer / Zubat suck but there are workarounds for Zubat).

Of course. I didn't intend for this to be included in the OP, just as a quick way of glancing at it's strengths an weaknesses. I apologize for that and can make a more detailed one if needed (though if anyone else wants to do so, they should feel free).

Also I really think Treecko should be at the least an A.

I know I may be seen as crazy but we have to remember that Treecko has almost auto-win capability with Gym 1 on Mega Drain alone and potential evolution. Brawly is eh, but Grovyle has access to Low Sweep with Wattson and a resistance to Volt Switch. It can sort of dent Flannery since Rock Tomb is available to Grovyle (as is Dig) and it should get through most of the Fire-types barring Torkoal and -maybe- Numel. It should do okay versus Winona too since, despite the Flying-type weakness, it can get through Pelipper without too much issue and Altaria is prone to Mega Sceptile's Dual Chop.

Honestly it isn't the strongest Pokemon and I can see why questioning it in S exists, but it being in B is pretty damn insulting too. Treecko has a couple hiccups along the ride but it is damn strong and has a versatile movepool to work around some of its issues.

I can definitely see A. It runs into issues that are definitely less prevalent with the other starters, but it's perfectly strong in its own right too, and it's viable movepool has been expanded greatly since RSE.

 

[Colonel M]

D for Clefairy.

I will agree that E is kind of harsh for it. It comes at Level 40. 43 it gets Moonblast. It also has a good TM movepool (Calm Mind, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Focus Blast, etc). Clefable is kind of slow though (at least in Speed) but fast in leveling. An issue is that it comes absurdly late and requires a detour to obtain. It doesn't take too much to really get going (at worst a little shuffling) and it does have some pivotal moments in the E4 (should be good versus Drake and Sidney). Phoebe is iffy because I couldn't even sweep her with Gyarados due to Curse Dusclops leading.

D for sure. People can test and try to convince me for C.

 

[Zandock]

Can I ask why Corphish is S? Just curious before I've never used it ingame before. It always seemed quite slow and frail.

 

[Colonel M]

Can I ask why Corphish is S? Just curious before I've never used it ingame before. It always seemed quite slow and frail.

I might have someone look into it. Fluctuating is within its EXP Growth too - though to be fair we concluded it isn't really too bad until 40s.

It was mainly due to its strong offensive movepool and good STABs. Crawdaunt isn't too far off either. I have a -little- skepticism on it but I won't lie that I agreed to it being S.

K so let's also tackle Dustox.

On top of what many asked "WHY IS DUSTOX B!?!" I won't lie that I too questioned it myself. Having played through the game now I think it is safe to say the moth should be a D. Now to be fair Dustox does have a few advantages but they almost scrape bottom of the barrel:

- Brawly. Dustox is one of the better, if not one of the best Pokemon against Brawly. Only Ralts can brag having a quadruple resistance to Makuhita and Machop's STABs. Confusion will help.
- Small portions against Team Magma / Aqua (more Aqua). Confusion and Struggle Bug hit a few of Team Magma / Aqua's team for SE damage.
- Boosted Venoshock...
- ...uh...

I guess I'm kind of becoming more convinced this is D too. It's "okay" but it just... isn't... that good.

 

[Ender]

I might have someone look into it. Fluctuating is within its EXP Growth too - though to be fair we concluded it isn't really too bad until 40s.

It was mainly due to its strong offensive movepool and good STABs. Crawdaunt isn't too far off either. I have a -little- skepticism on it but I won't lie that I agreed to it being S.

K so let's also tackle Dustox.

On top of what many asked "WHY IS DUSTOX B!?!" I won't lie that I too questioned it myself. Having played through the game now I think it is safe to say the moth should be a D. Now to be fair Dustox does have a few advantages but they almost scrape bottom of the barrel:

- Brawly. Dustox is one of the better, if not one of the best Pokemon against Brawly. Only Ralts can brag having a quadruple resistance to Makuhita and Machop's STABs. Confusion will help.
- Small portions against Team Magma / Aqua (more Aqua). Confusion and Struggle Bug hit a few of Team Magma / Aqua's team for SE damage.
- Boosted Venoshock...
- ...uh...

I guess I'm kind of becoming more convinced this is D too. It's "okay" but it just... isn't... that good.

Honestly that description makes it sound more like a C than a D to me. If I were to ascribe one-word adjectives for each tier they would probably be S-Outstanding, A-Great, B-Decent, C-Okay, D-Bad, E-Abysmal. The fact that it does have an early-game niche (and decent attacking stats by the time it evolves) as well as relatively okay functionality until probably around level 25 makes it better than "bad".

However, if everyone definitely agrees it's D, I'm not emotionally attached to it being in C or anything, just thought I would provide another perspective. If people want, I can try it out and report back, but it might not be worth the effort.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I thought about A myself. One advantage from XY Ralts transitioning to ORAS Ralts is that ORAS Ralts actually has a pivotal moment to shine (hello Brawly!) and, honestly, I disagree with the power creep. I found it fairly mild in ORAS in comparison to X&Y. Also don't forget Draining Kiss at Level 23 for Kirlia - it can help it out quite a bit.

Celever was a little more inclined to keeping it in S. I'm still on the fence honestly. It really does a decent number to a lot of Pokemon throughout the game though. But damn those Muks in AS surviving a Psychic and OHKOing Gardevoir with Gunk Shot...

Man, I don't know what happened but everything was sweeping my Ralts/Kirlia, I even thought they had nerfed their base Defense even more or something. And yeah, good point on Draining Kiss, that was a godsend. But guess we'll need more people weighting their opinions.


EDIT--Man, Beautifly is totally B-rank in my book. She only starts lacking by 7th badge, its movepool is pretty good for the whole game imo and it even gets Quiver Dance by lv40.

 

[Colonel M]

Man, I don't know what happened but everything was sweeping my Ralts/Kirlia, I even thought they had nerfed their base Defense even more or something. And yeah, good point on Draining Kiss, that was a godsend. But guess we'll need more people weighting their opinions.

Did your Ralts have a -Def nature or just really under-leveled? I won't lie it being in a Slow leveling pool can affect it. Mine had a -Def nature but it had moments where it could cushion a hit.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Did your Ralts have a -Def nature or just really under-leveled? I won't lie it being in a Slow leveling pool can affect it. Mine had a -Def nature but it had moments where it could cushion a hit.

Nope, Brave (lol). IVs seem to be average as usual, and it was always on par with the rest of the team level-wise... but only because Gardevoir is my favorite mon and I know it would pay off because I would have swapped Ralts for Abra instead if it weren't for that.

That's another reason I'm not sure we're going to take into account; Gardevoir is nowhere close to Alakazam rank-wise lol.

 

[Lucchini]

Isn't it too many Pokemon for S-tier this time around? Especially when you have really questionable ones like Corphish on the list. Split it up; remember how many more we have below it.

 

[Ender]

That's another reason I'm not sure we're going to take into account; Gardevoir is nowhere close to Alakazam rank-wise lol.

It's possible that we need to split the S-tier, especially because there's no way that Latias/Latios are functionally equivalent to something like Crawdaunt.

Also, something I'd like to note/clarify is that even though we're not ranking Pokemon based on whether or not something fulfills the same role better, comparison still underlies the entire philosophy of having a tier list. We should think of it as non-competitive comparison rather than competitive comparison. Thus, if we find two Pokemon that fill the same niche (ie Gardevoir and Alakazam) with differing levels of success, they don't necessarily have to be placed in different tiers, as long as both are "better" than those in lower tiers and "worse" than those in higher tiers. However, Pokemon in the same tier rank need to be at least somewhat equivalent in terms of efficiency, otherwise the list would make no sense, so we really are comparing Pokemon against one another in the sense that other Pokemon are the metric by which we rank, but we're just not allowed to say that Pokemon in different roles necessarily need to be tiered differently.

Thus, if Gardevoir proves to be worse than Alakazam in addition to the rest of the S tier (and more along the lines of A), it should not be ranked in S, because doing so implies equal performance, which may not be true.

 

[canasian]

D for Clefairy.

I will agree that E is kind of harsh for it. It comes at Level 40. 43 it gets Moonblast. It also has a good TM movepool (Calm Mind, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, Focus Blast, etc). Clefable is kind of slow though (at least in Speed) but fast in leveling. An issue is that it comes absurdly late and requires a detour to obtain. It doesn't take too much to really get going (at worst a little shuffling) and it does have some pivotal moments in the E4 (should be good versus Drake and Sidney). Phoebe is iffy because I couldn't even sweep her with Gyarados due to Curse Dusclops leading.

D for sure. People can test and try to convince me for C.

It also sweeps Phoebe in spite of the Dusclops because Magic Guard makes it immune to Curse

 

[Its_A_Random]

Let us also remember that this is just early on and significant sorting will make the tier list look a lot better without having to resort to splitting up ranks... If I did not need to split ranks with a tier list as large as XY's then I think we will not have any real issues with not splitting up ranks.

I mentioned this on #oi but Treecko is not an B-Rank Pokémon; it is an A-Rank Pokémon. It destroys Roxanne, Liza & Tate and Wallace, it does very well against the majority of Team Aqua, I managed to solo Wally with it (albeit being roughly six levels higher) and it can rip apart Sidney with X-Scissor (though screw Mightyena Intimidate). In a game with loads of Water-types a Pokémon like Treecko is an advantage and with its natural speed, it is definitely too good for B-Rank. It struggles against Team Magma though and a few other gyms so it is not worth S-Rank.

I do not like Corphish in S-Rank; it seems more like an A-Rank imo. Fluctuating Exp. Curve makes it an absolute pain to level up in the late-game, it is quite slow and unless we are discounting opportunity cost for it, Adaptability has that opportunity cost attached to it due to it being a Hidden Ability.

Marill should drop to A-Rank too. It comes at a low level relative to your team at that point (unless you want to find a high leveled one but that is a question of opportunity cost), it is not immediately useful and although it gets going really quick and gets two ridiculous STAB's by Level 25, it still suffers the same speed issues that prevent it from being at the top of the tree like in the past. It still has a great match-up record and insane power as well as the desired fast exp curve however so it is worth A-Rank imo.

I have some other things I want to look at but these are the big things standing out to me here atm.

 

[Wrave]

Slakoth for C. It can be used against a lot of the grunts but must avoid Mightyena with Intimidate. It also can take a lot of Pokemon out in one hit with a Silk Scarf boosted Slash or Giga Impact as Slaking. If it were not for Truant this thing would be an A.

Breloom's biggest issue is the fact that it doesn't get Spore. It gets Seed Bomb at 41 which is any where between 5th and 7th gym depending on whether or not you are using the EXP Share. It can sweep Roxanne, Norman and Wallace with no problem and can be used against Glacia (sans Frosslass) and Steven (beware of Megagross though).

Are we counting the event Beldum?

Mudkip is A-S because it learns Rock Slide via Level Up and has no problem with most of the game since it has good stats to play mixed. Cosplay Pikachu is good as long as you give it the Light Ball (can be obtained before Winona if you skip ahead a route).

 

[Codraroll]

How would Slakoth -> Vigoroth (no evolution) fare? It plays so drastically different from Slaking that I think it deserves to be tiered separately (even though they may end up in the same tier).

Vigoroth doesn't excel in any stat, although it outperforms stuff like Spinda or Illumise by base stats alone, and with Eviolite it has adequately solid Defense (may exceed 200 at level 50). It has strong STAB in Facade, has an amazingly wide movepool, is immune to sleep, and fast enough to outspeed most in-game opponents. Even though it lacks the raw power of its evolution, at least it can play consistently and hurt enemies every turn in multi-turn battles. It might not be the best one out there, but I think it could manage to get into the D tier at least.

 

[Colonel M]

Slakoth's problem isn't Slaking. Slakoth's problem is training Slakoth itself.

Slakoth is practically the opposite of efficient thanks to Truant. It is in the Slow EXP group which also makes it difficult to train. It does mediocre in normal battles but is absolutely terrible against Roxanne and Brawly. It also requires 13 painful levels to reach Vigoroth. Maybe if Slakoth OHKOed / 2HKOed most Pokemon I could justify it better. But I really cannot - Slakoth is just too damn awful. I guess at least Yawn exists to help it a little...

I wont lie - I am a little unsure about Marill A. I guess one thing that really bones it is its Speed stat. Still it is much tankier than Corphish for example and Water / Fairy is a great typing to have barring against shit like Tentacruel. It will come a little underleveled but there are trainers in that route that Marill should do okay against to gain EXP / levels. Being in the Fast EXP group helps too.

After Im done with the Delta episode I may restart my game because there are a lot of Pokemon like Marill that I want to test.

 

[Lucchini]

I strongly believe Marill should be in S this time around. In the last couple of games, it suffered from being in the Azurill period for too long, with poor bases, a lack of a physical move and some difficulties with evolving on time, but none of these are present here, and it can even Bubble the Geodudes for easy experience before getting better physicals by level-up.

I'd like to talk about Gallade, who is currently in the lowest tier possible in the opening post. Specifically, how much time can one expect to spend in Super Training to get that Dawn Stone? On average let's say. How reliable is it to get one?

 

[Ondore]

The thing is, we're not considering ST for it. I got a Dawn Stone in a half hour (took a lunch break at work), but I had to import a max-effort Pokemon to get it for my run and the only ingame Dawn Stone is literally at the end of Victory Road. Neither one's conducive to a high rank based on the rules we set out.

What I do take issue with is Mawile as a C.

Location: Granite Cave (Mach Bike required). Admittedly, a bit of backtracking once you get the bike but it's not too long.
Type: Steel/Fairy, essentially neutralizing the Steel weakness and turning Poison into an immunity. Leaves Ground/Fire as weaknesses.
Stats: Good Attack/Defense, HP is a tad low, Speed is good enough ingame. Has access to an ingame Mega Stone that makes it hit like a truck, gives it Pure Power and radically increases defenses.
Movepool: STABs provide good coverage, and with a couple minutes of beach exploration you have its best STABs in Fallarbor (Move Returner, nobody really needs the Scales on first visit). Has access to Strength and Rock Smash as filler and to cover off those HMs.
Major battles: Does OK against Wattson with some Rock Smash fun, loses straight out to Flannery, resists everything Norman throws, then you get Mega access and it pretty much wrecks the final three gyms (Tate/Liza in particular are jokes thanks to Iron Head). Only potential problem is Skarmory and Altaria's EQ, but you should be able to hit the latter with Play Rough first. Team Magma unfortunately is a concern because Numel/Camerupt are perfect checks, but it can pretty much take anything else they throw at you. Extremely effective against 3/5 of the Elite 4 (Sidney/Drake/Glacia) and can even handle a couple of Steven's Pokemon.
Other things: Its Mega Stone is in Verdanturf, and you can get it on first visit. If they swapped Mawile and Sableye's games then I'd call Mawile A with an outside shot of S since you wouldn't have to deal with Fire/Ground types as much.

As it stands, I think Mawile can jump at least one tier, no?

 

[Nexus]

I strongly believe Marill should be in S this time around. In the last couple of games, it suffered from being in the Azurill period for too long, with poor bases, a lack of a physical move and some difficulties with evolving on time, but none of these are present here, and it can even Bubble the Geodudes for easy experience before getting better physicals by level-up.

I'd like to talk about Gallade, who is currently in the lowest tier possible in the opening post. Specifically, how much time can one expect to spend in Super Training to get that Dawn Stone? On average let's say. How reliable is it to get one?

it's feasible but really isn't efficient, have to play through all the super trainings to unlock the super secret training then play through a few of those until you unlock the one that has a dawn stone accessible as a prize, and even after that it's still a small chance you'll get a dawn stone from that super secret training.

 

[sickweare]

Marill belongs in S. Strong as hell and practically shits on the entire game except for Wattson. Getting Play Rough at 25 is insane and it's one of the best water types to use. Carvanha is in S but is the definition of fragile and isn't even as strong as marill. It's also in the fast EXP growth group, so it never lags behind. Honestly, don't see a reason why MArill is below Carvanha or Corphish (questionable itself). Seriously Marill is an incredible mon in this game and it should stay in S 100%.

Also surprised with Treecko's ranking. It's the best grass type in the game, and with as many good matchups as it gets (it even deals well with magma b/c numel's neutrality to grass), I was honestly thinking it would be S. It crushed in my playthrough, only not showing up for Flannery. Great level up movepool, insanely strong Mega, the only thing you're giving up by choosing Treecko is access to the other starters (Torchic is amazing in-game so there's that, but Mudkip is replaceable by other strong water types available).

 

[Celever]

List of changes:
Bagon: B --> D (I didn't know this was only after the 8th badge)
Wurmple (Dustox): B --> C
Treecko: B --> A
Aron: Untiered --> C
Clefairy: E --> D
Slakoth (Vigoroth) added to Untested
Murkrow added to Untested
Drifloon added to Untested
Braviary added to Untested

I just found out Murkrow, Drifloon and Braviary are accessible whilst soaring.

More discussion needed:
Shroomish: Untiered --> ?
Skarmory: C --> B
Magnemite: A --> S
Ralts: S --> A (I will make an argument for this thing to stay in S-Rank soon)
Corphish: S --> A (")
Marril S --> A (")
Mawile C --> B

Thanks for answering everyone's question while I was asleep Colonel M! ^_^

 

[GG Unit]

I'd keep Ralts/Gardevoir at S. Even when underleveled, it's a free sweep against any boss trainer with a specially oriented lead Pokemon just like Alakazam, but Draining Kiss means you don't have to worry about healing it (I never even used the Gardevoirite, but Pixilated Secret Power would be extremely powerful relatively early in the game). It's also got a much better matchup than the Abra line against all the Poochyenas/Mightyenas the villan team has.

 

[CarbonDuck]

I'd keep Ralts/Gardevoir at S. Even when underleveled, it's a free sweep against any boss trainer with a specially oriented lead Pokemon just like Alakazam, but Draining Kiss means you don't have to worry about healing it (I never even used the Gardevoirite, but Pixilated Secret Power would be extremely powerful relatively early in the game). It's also got a much better matchup than the Abra line against all the Poochyenas/Mightyenas the villan team has.

What do you mean when you say "relatively early"?
The Gardevoirite isn't available until you beat Groudon/Kyogre. God knows why GF made it available so late for a Hoenn mon.

 

[Stellar]

Hordes only appear naturally in tall grass in ORAS. You'd have to have Honey or a Pokémon with Sweet Scent to get Magnemite before New Mauville (i.e., after Groudon/Kyogre). Even if you get it via horde, it's only going to be Lv6. Surely that means it can't be S rank.

 

[Millky95]

I'll admit I used Exp Share but it if anything highlights my point.

Ralts and by extension Gardevoir was always the weakest Pokemon on my team. It was the hardest to train, longest to level and weakest until it learnt Psychic at 40. Even with Exp Share I thought about chucking it away around the 5th gym. I would say somewhere between A-B but it's not S rank.

 

[Detective Barricade]

I'll admit I used Exp Share but it if anything highlights my point.

Ralts and by extension Gardevoir was always the weakest Pokemon on my team. It was the hardest to train, longest to level and weakest until it learnt Psychic at 40. Even with Exp Share I thought about chucking it away around the 5th gym. I would say somewhere between A-B but it's not S rank.

I've had the opposite experience. I immediately turned off the EXP Share when I got it and never turned it on since, but raising it was delightfully easy. Having Disarming Voice helped let it destroy the various Dark types and Meditite that otherwise would give it problems, and has only really fainted due to surprise Iron Heads a couple of times. Perhaps it isn't S-tier, but to say it belongs in B is insulting. A seems about right, though I'm curious to hear Celever's argument in keeping it in S tier.