ORAS In-game Tier List - Read Post #324

[Karxrida]

Thunder can also be purchased in Lilycove far before you even encounter Kyogre and gives it good coverage without any backtracking or sidequesting (Ice Beam requires going to Sea Mauville). Regardless, both pretty much solo the last part of the game due to how fucking powerful they are.

 

[orkid]

To me this tier list seems very off. In part I think that is because I have beef with the old smogon Ruby/Sapphire tier lists and this one seems to start from it. Here are my suggestions for S, which I think should be set a bit before the other tiers so we have a kind of base line of excellence. First, the pokemon that most belong in S in my opinion are the 3 starters. Mudkip and Torchic get nukes when they hit the 2nd form, Treeko's miracle-seed boosted mega drain is basically as strong as mudshot/doublekick. The pledges then give them tons of power for the mid-game (grass pledge 2-3hkos magenton - though my treeko has a spA boosting nature). Then the megaevolutions are very very powerful. Treeko might be the worst one but it still dominates the game. the other two starters are probably even better (I used treeko). They are all great vs the E4 as well.

Just running through whats in S now/what needs more discussion re:S tier-
Alakazam - didn't use him,I guess if you're saying evolve at level 16 it could be S - but how does it do late game? its matchups vs the elite four and the last 2 or even 3 gyms seem iffy to me. I'd say A is more likely (and Kadabra for B)

Carvanha- the typing is very useful and so is the surfing/hm slaving. but its so frail and has trouble out right winning any major battle its not hitting for STAB SE. Plus its in the slow exp group, which matters much more for it than say Latios. I say A (if you just use it as a surf slave then you catch a level 40 sharpedo with the super rod on rout 119 and that's super cool but I don't think hm slave should make it S)

Eletrike- seems A tier to me. Finally gets STAB when you catch it but it uses the worse attacking stat and it evolves kinda late and is in the slow exp group. What exactly does it beat besides fly/water badges? Volt switch is also either handy or annoying, my guess is usually annoying? It also lost special dark coverage from the old games. thunder tm is cool but inaccurate and late. also altaria still has earthquake.

Lati Twins- I used Latios. I found him... less S tier than I'd assumed he'd be. I think they are S tier but I wonder if any one else was underwhelmed? they do well against most gyms and as hm slaves/route cleaners but they have a tough time against the E-4, who all hit them w/ SE STAB. Psychic TM so late also sucks. Also I just found they often had to mega evolve to 2hko and luster purge's pp was annoying. is anyone else skeptical?

Lotad- To be decent you have to delay evolution by 4 levels (14 to 18) for mega drain. Then you have a grass type that can't really help you beat Watson (unlike shroomish, treeko and even seedot), a water type that takes a bunch of damage from flannery and can't use coverage to help with Winona. I dunno... is he really S tier? I've used lotad in the old hoenn games and found him underwhelming, maybe I am failing to see something that makes him much better in the new ones. I say A at the very best. Its less useful than Numel I think. things might be different if it were the only/best way to beat roxanne if you picked torchic but shroomish exists.

Marill - I'm on the fence. My guess is S though. It is hardly that low of a level compared to your team when you get it and levels up very fast on the route you catch it. Both its STABS are amazing in this game, not only for coming so powerful early but for being so useful - fairy typing helps with a lot of the E4 (can outspeed and ohko cacuturne btw). HM abilities are good too. the only downside is the low speed, but if Numel is A (which I'm not sure) then Marill is S I think.

Ralts - Dunno, didn't use him and the movepool changes seem like too much for me to theorymon.

My guess is Corphish is too slow and weak for S but I didn't use him and am so surprised to see him here I feel like I must have missed something? Also the Primals could be S i guess unless people think they come too late.

tldr:
S
Definitely - Treeko, Mudkip, Torchic
Probably- Lati@s, Marill
Maybe - Gardevoir/Alakazam



BTW for A tier -
Put Shroomish in A. Its great vs roxanne and decimates watson. it beats norman and is handy vs wallace. it is also helpful vs dark and ice e4s and steven.

No to Zigzagoon and Tropius in A. HM slaves aren't good enough to be this high. There are other hm compatible mons that do much better in battle. I'm also not convinced that Wingull belongs here. Its frail before it evolves and then its slow. it can't be roxanne which is what you need in an early water type. Its typing is great and so is the movepool and protect vs Norman is handy - but I found it less amazing than A tier.

oh and get cacnea out of B tier it is way too slow and frail and a bit rare. Maybe C? Probably D. (this comes from loving cacnea and using him in an xy run through in which he often died but he is very very cute).

also - anorith is better than cradilly

 

[FMD]

Swablu
Rank: B
Availability: Before the 4th Gym.
Typing: Normal / Flying (Dragon / Flying as Altaria, Dragon / Fairy as Mega Altaria)
Stats: Good bulk through all stages with decent offenses later on.
Movepool: Poor by level-up, but great options from easily obtained TMs.
Major Battles: Under-performs until later in the game. Afterwards, it easily destroys three of the Elite Four and Zinnia single-handedly.
Other: It is almost unparalleled late game, but its poor start really holds it back.

 

[Colonel M]

To me this tier list seems very off. In part I think that is because I have beef with the old smogon Ruby/Sapphire tier lists and this one seems to start from it.

Hearing this seriously pisses me off.

I'm not even joking.

I spent this entire post explaining how I created the tier list. In fact, I will even show you the Pastebin that I first presented to Celever before we re-structured it.

http://pastebin.com/LiZKngU5

Notice when the Pastebin was made. November 9, 2014. Now let me show you the RS Tier list:

http://www.smogon.com/ingame/misc/adv_rse_ingametiers

Now let's have a peeksie at how different this is from the original RSE Tier list:

- Chinchou is ranked Top in the original RSE - something I would never let through if I ran the tier list. Chinchou is way too damn late and has maybe a single battle where it shines at best barring against Magma / Aqua.
- Shroomish, who is decent but definitely not S-tier worthy.
- Skarmory, which is a good B candidate but certainly not S.
- Staryu is S Tier in this list. I think I put it in A due to its availability.
- Tentacool, which actually has pretty big problems because it is only obtainable at Level 5. Level 5 Tentacool is stuck with STAB Poison Sting, etc.

I mean this is just S and I can just go on and on. Let's try not to make baseless assumptions such as "this was structured the same as the original RSE tier list".

EVER.

AGAIN.

Here are my suggestions for S, which I think should be set a bit before the other tiers so we have a kind of base line of excellence. First, the pokemon that most belong in S in my opinion are the 3 starters. Mudkip and Torchic get nukes when they hit the 2nd form, Treeko's miracle-seed boosted mega drain is basically as strong as mudshot/doublekick. The pledges then give them tons of power for the mid-game (grass pledge 2-3hkos magenton - though my treeko has a spA boosting nature). Then the megaevolutions are very very powerful. Treeko might be the worst one but it still dominates the game. the other two starters are probably even better (I used treeko). They are all great vs the E4 as well.

Many people have already discussed that Treecko, a Pokemon even I originally put into S Tier, was not good enough to be S. The majority of us agreed to its A Tier ranking. Why? Because it certainly isn't bad, but it still falls nickels and dimes short in important fights. It does good in quite a bundle of them but where it also excels well is outside important battles. It also has an okay standing in the E4 (it actually does something to Drake now).

Mentioning the pledges are iffy. IIRC they actually require a max happiness attached to it (I was not able to receive Fire Pledge with my Combusken). Even so, even taking Sturdy into account, 3HKOing Wattson is not very impressive. I would think Low Sweep would 2HKO a little better (maybe 3HKO Magneton) but honestly using Grovyle against Wattson is kind of eh.

Just running through whats in S now/what needs more discussion re:S tier-
Alakazam - didn't use him,I guess if you're saying evolve at level 16 it could be S - but how does it do late game? its matchups vs the elite four and the last 2 or even 3 gyms seem iffy to me. I'd say A is more likely (and Kadabra for B)

Alakazam has access to Shadow Ball versus Solrock and Lunatone (as well as the rest of the gym). Nevermind it also has an access to a Mega Evolution which pushes its offenses a lot further than the scrub Kadabras / Kirlias within the gym. I wouldn't even rank it bad against Wallace - 2-3 Calm Minds and firing off Psybeam / Psychic should nuke through Wallace like nothing. It can leverage itself with Focus Blast and Shadow Ball within the E4, but hey it isn't like Sceptile for example isn't doing godsend moments against Glacia and Phoebe, right?

Carvanha

- the typing is very useful and so is the surfing/hm slaving. but its so frail and has trouble out right winning any major battle its not hitting for STAB SE. Plus its in the slow exp group, which matters much more for it than say Latios. I say A (if you just use it as a surf slave then you catch a level 40 sharpedo with the super rod on rout 119 and that's super cool but I don't think hm slave should make it S)

This is the one that I will absolutely stand behind with it being S and almost will take "no" for an answer. Again - Sharpedo is the only Pokemon that is capable of surfing at the speed that it does. It can save time just by it Surfing alone. Training it is pretty beneficial for the player even if it was just for 5 levels to get Sharpedo. It makes backtracking and obtaining TMs / items that require in-depth exploration must faster (think - Ice Beam TM, Rock Slide, etc). Though it sounds unlikely Carvanha and Sharpedo can usually take a hit. It can't be specific attacks, yes, but it can usually last through one. It still does more than fine against a lot of trainers (Magma / Aqua Grunts and even the Admins with Camerupt).

There's something I like to address that is also within this, but I'll actually address it when we get to the Lati twins.

Eletrike-

seems A tier to me. Finally gets STAB when you catch it but it uses the worse attacking stat and it evolves kinda late and is in the slow exp group. What exactly does it beat besides fly/water badges? Volt switch is also either handy or annoying, my guess is usually annoying? It also lost special dark coverage from the old games. thunder tm is cool but inaccurate and late. also altaria still has earthquake.

Volt Switch is usually fine for a while. Sometimes it works out to Electrike's advantage (see: Norman). The biggest perk, though, is that there's Mega Manectric after the Lati twin scenario. Manectric loses its Dark-type special STAB; however, it also gains Overheat / Flamethrower to take advantage of too. Spark seems mediocre off base 45 Attack, but just a friendly reminder that it still has Howl. You also could teach it Charge Beam which would just make it power itself up throughout the fight. Just in case you really hate Volt Switch. Once you're 30 you have Discharge anyway. With Mega Manectric you shouldn't need anything beyond that until New Mauville scenario.

...I actually will come back to Electrike. I forgot it was in the Slow EXP tier too.

Lati Twins

- I used Latios. I found him... less S tier than I'd assumed he'd be. I think they are S tier but I wonder if any one else was underwhelmed? they do well against most gyms and as hm slaves/route cleaners but they have a tough time against the E-4, who all hit them w/ SE STAB. Psychic TM so late also sucks. Also I just found they often had to mega evolve to 2hko and luster purge's pp was annoying. I guess heart scale dragon pulse (which I didn't realize til around wallace) would make big difference though. But yeah is anyone else skeptical?

This I actually admit I threw a lot of red flags. But you wouldn't have access to Dragon Pulse either (unless Serebii is wrong). Dragon Pulse was a Heart Scale attack in XY. It is not in ORAS. I actually further questioned Latias myself because I had Mist Ball and the PP usage drove me absolutely insane. Nevermind the base power is mediocre and Dragonbreath is mediocre as well. It has a few things like Charge Beam, Grass Knot, Shadow Ball, and other moves to kind of circumvent the issue I guess.

I think, though, if we are to accept that our Kyogre / Groudon deities will sweep once they arrive, though, I think Lati@s in S can be justified just because they come with no opportunity cost attached and are fairly useful up to that point (well actually up to Wallace). I actually want to point out Lati twins blow in the E4. Even Alakazam can bypass some issues.

Lotad-

To be decent you have to delay evolution by 4 levels (14 to 18) for mega drain. Then you have a grass type that can't really help you beat Watson (unlike shroomish, treeko and even seedot), a water type that takes a bunch of damage from flannery and can't use coverage to help with Winona. I dunno... is he really S tier? I've used lotad in the old hoenn games and found him underwhelming, maybe I am failing to see something that makes him much better in the new ones. I say A at the very best. Its less useful than Numel I think. things might be different if it were the only/best way to beat roxanne if you picked torchic but shroomish exists.

I disagree with this. I'm actually going to go full man-mode because I think everyone bashes Lotad way too damn much.

Lotad has one perk - it's a Water-type. Yes it does suck that you have to hold back for Mega Drain. Even if you did, Lotad would have the perk of having a little faster EXP boost. I mean both Shroomish and Lotad have the same base SpA. It's better to just evolve to Lombre, IMO, because eventually STAB Water will be superior to STAB Grass. This is especially true against Flannery, where Shroomish and Treecko are fairly prone against Torkoal (they can sort of be prone to Slugma if they miss Rock Tomb). Lotad also does slightly better against Team Magma's Numels and Camerupts. I honestly think that Lotad is more comparable to its Water-type brethren more than Grass-type, though, because you are right that Lotad is practically stuck with Absorb unless it holds back or waits right until before Winona.

Also to point out due to your line: "a water type that takes a bunch of damage from flannery and can't use coverage to help with Winona. I dunno... is he really S tier? I've used lotad in the old hoenn games and found him underwhelming, maybe I am failing to see something that makes him much better in the new ones." There are a couple things that changed:

- Lotad learns Bubble at Level 9. This was not available to Lotad in RSE.

This seems minor but it helps make a difference. Shroomish and Treecko both have STAB Mega Drain; however, Lotad can match that power or even surpass it as a Lombre with Bubble.

- Lombre learns Bubblebeam at Level 24. This was not available to Lombre in RSE.

Water Pulse wasn't until Wallace and Surf wasn't until you defeated Norman. This is a key difference too because it gives Lombre an actual advantage against Flannery.

Though Lombre takes neutral damage from Flannery, it's better than SE.

Still, I think that you have a point. That's why I may agree with you on this - I think that Lotad should be within the same tier as Treecko. Ergo, A.

My guess is Corphish is too slow and weak for S but I didn't use him and am so surprised to see him here I feel like I must have missed something? Also the Primals could be S i guess unless people think they come too late.

I'm thinking Corphish will drop to A / B tier. To be fair, though, it hits like a truck. But it is kind of held back more by its Speed than durability (in correlation with an efficient Pokemon playthrough Speed is more important than durability).

BTW for A tier -

Put Shroomish in A. Its great vs roxanne and decimates watson. it beats norman and is handy vs wallace. it is also helpful vs dark and ice e4s and steven.

I would not really use Breloom against Glacia in the E4. She has two Froslass (which nullify STAB Fighting-type attacks) and Walrein is pretty damn sturdy (I'm pretty sure it can live one attack from Breloom and OHKO it back). Breloom also is naturally slower than Glalie - though this one might be a little minor since base 70 with EVs vs uninvested 80 isn't likely much of a difference. Definitely has the edge on Sydney and the ones you mentioned. I wouldn't quite say "decimate" though - I think Geodude / Graveler do better in that department because they don't take squat from any of Wattson's Pokemon barring Magneton's Sonicboom.

Still it is pretty strong against a few important battles and does well outside. I think Shroomish in A has some justifying to it.

No to Zigzagoon and Tropius in A. HM slaves aren't good enough to be this high. There are other hm compatible mons that do much better in battle.

Maybe not Tropius, but definitely to Zigzagoon. Zigzagoon usually have Pickup as their ability and have earlygame prowess (STAB Tackle, even behind base 20 Attack, still leaves dents). Tropius is still unique since it carries the burden of the arguably two worst HMs (Rock Smash and Fly) and carrying the other mediocre one (Strength). I will agree behind B Tropius. B Zigzagoon? Might take a little more.

I'm also not convinced that Wingull belongs here. Its frail before it evolves and then its slow. it can't be roxanne which is what you need in an early water type. Its typing is great and so is the movepool and protect vs Norman is handy - but I found it less amazing than A tier.

Wingull does okay against Roxanne - it shines a lot brighter against Brawly since it has STAB Wing Attack at that point. Pelipper isn't terribly slow (base 65 is alright) and it has access to STAB Hydro Pump / Hurricane through Heart Scale. Oh, and Tailwind. :P It can last for a while.

oh and get cacnea out of B tier it is way too slow and frail and a bit rare. Maybe C? Probably D. (this comes from loving cacnea and using him in an xy run through in which he often died but he is very very cute).

C.

We'll give it a little benefit of the doubt that it can do okay in a few situations when trained.

also - anorith is better than cradilly

Nah.

Well...

Anorith fits a little better early on but I think Cradily > Armaldo at the end. Cradily transitions better with it being tankier. But honestly I think they should just meet up at C since they have moments of decency.

Though Anorith is fairly frail - almost comparable to Carvanha / Sharpedo which you were pretty quick to criticize on. And after looking at the EXP growth again - Erratic... kind of blows.

=====

So after all that said, I think I want to look into re-arranging S and A Tier.

S should be as follows
- Mudkip
- Torchic
- Abra (w/trade)
- Kyogre
- Groudon
- Carvanha
- Latios (?)
- Latias (?)
- Marill (?)
- Ralts (???)

A should be as follows
- Electrike
- Lotad
- Treecko
- Shroomish (?)
- Everyone else in A EXCEPT TROPIUS

B should be as follows
- Corphish
- Tropius
- Everyone else

Reasons:

Kyogre / Groudon - though late, they have almost no real cost attached to them barring a few TMs (Kyogre with Thunder and probably Dragon Claw / Solarbeam for Groudon). Both wipe the floor from when they arrive to the end. Kyogre benefit of cool Surf (jk).

Lati Twins - both do fine with occasional hiccups. I believe that S does have room for Pokemon that sometimes do have minor mediocre periods or minor cons (this isn't FE8 Seth people). They're strong. They're free. They have a Mega Evolution to bolster their offense and defense. They learn a good amount of moves to overcome their problems. Minor hiccups like Marills / Poochyenas but hey - can't win them all.

Marill - powerful STABs by Level 25. Also has a pretty easy time against some of its matchups and even can be competent against matchups it doesn't really excel in (see - Winona).

Ralts - the most questionable of all. I'll wait for Celever on this one specifically.

Electrike - it's strong, it's quick, it has a mega past Norman's gym. Relying on Volt Switch / Charge Beam is meh but it can work out in Electrike's favor. Slow EXP gain and having only handful of advantages makes A justifying for it.

Lotad, Treecko, Shroomish - though as I mentioned before with Lotad being more comparable with its Water-type brethren, one cannot deny it's still a Grass-type. The difference all three of these have are minor wins and losses in certain scenarios. I think overall Lotad's advantages eventually peter out better in some situations, but I can't deny it still has some shortcomings.

Tropius - Soar eventually replaces it and even Cut has only moderate uses when you actually obtain it. Still good, just probably not A. Feel free to argue it to stay in A.

Corphish - I sort of want to wait on Celever for this one too but I can't deny that it really should be A-B tier. It's strong, but its still mediocre in frailty and Speed.

 

[Detective Barricade]

- I think Geodude / Graveler do better in that department because they don't take squat from any of Wattson's Pokemon barring Magneton's Sonicboom.

Magneton has Magnet Bomb to hit Geodude/Graveler. Found that out when I used one against his gym with the intent of shutting down Volt Switch shenanigans.

 

[Colonel M]

Magneton has Magnet Bomb to hit Geodude/Graveler. Found that out when I used one against his gym with the intent of shutting down Volt Switch shenanigans.

I see.

A shame that it's physical lol.

 

[Jibaku]

Magikarp

Should absolutely be in S. Although it starts off weaker than Ralts and Abra (not saying much though - we have Abra in S), it powerspikes incredibly hard upon evolving and basically destroys the game on its own after some time. Magikarp is available super early and can be trained to Gyarados some time after wattson (or earlier if you're a huge fan, I suppose, but for efficiency purposes you probably won't get the time to do this), and after that its power is just nuts. Gyarados gets all of the tools he needs by levelup and they are all at reasonable to low levels:

- Consider Heart Scaling Thrash onto Gyarados upon reaching fallarbor. Having access to a 120 BP move that early will cause a lot of devastation, especially since you have the option to switch between kills.
- Gyarados learns Dragon Rage at level 23, allowing it to 2HKO everything at around that level except for Fairies, which nobody important uses anyways.
- Unfortunately Gyarados doesn't get anything nice until Lv.35, where it gets Aqua Tail. Grab Ice Fang at 32 for some coverage. Dragon Rage will probably peter off but Thrash should still deal heavy amounts of damage.
- Somewhere near here (may or may not be after Lv.35), Intimidate becomes incredibly useful for keeping Norman's Pokemon in check
- Intimidate is also decent for lowering Wild Pokemon encounters, although the animation does get a bit annoying
- By the time you reach Mossdeep, your Gyarados may have learned Crunch at Lv.41. Along the way, you can pick up a Gyaradosite on Route 123. Regardless, Aqua Tail destroys Tate & Liza if you don't have Crunch yet.
- Pick up Earthquake in the Seafloor Cavern for another strong move.
- Gyarados can easily destroy Kyogre and Groudon solo if you choose to move past them quickly. It also does a great job tanking them if you wish to catch them. Note that Desolate Land means your water move does nothing to Groudon.
- If you get Dragon Dance at this point, you can simply destroy Wallace (get your full heals ready for Luvdisc).
- Gyarados pretty much just sweeps through the rest of the game really. It is on par with Kyogre and Groudon for lategame dominance (maybe a bit less due to having to setup whereas ogre/don kinda just run through ppl. Kyogre especially). I had no issues beating the E4 with nothing but Gyara and it wasn't overleveled either.
- You have a free slot on Gyarados because all it needs by lategame are DD/Waterfall/Crunch. Give it Dive or something.

The only Gym leader that Gyarados may find problematic after Wattson is Winona's due to Roost and Gyarados not being able to do a whole lot to Skarmory and Pelipper, although it smashes Altaria with Ice Fang. Everything else gets breezed through.

TL DR GYARADOS IS A GOD

 

[Ender]

I don't think that Ralts should be S. It's fantastic once it turns into Gardevoir at level 30, but you're stuck with Ralts and Kirlia until probably around Norman. Ralts and Kirlia have severe issues in the early to mid game due to their mediocre offensive and defensive capabilities. They die to nearly any physical hit, do very little damage even with super effective STAB moves (which are going to be Draining Kiss and Confusion until Gardevoir), and are more or less dead weight. While one could argue that their 4x resist makes them good against Brawly, I wouldn't say that Brawly is a particularly important battle. As long as your starter is around 17-18 or so and evolved (ie exactly where it should be at that point unless you skipped every optional battle), they will do just fine against him.

Ralts is available literally 10 minutes into the game. It evolves into Gardevoir probably somewhere around the 5th gym. Thus, for half the game it's going to contribute very little to your team's ability to progress quickly, as it'll have to be babied to be leveled up. However, if you want to get it to actually evolve, you have to use it. Forget about sending it out by itself - it is slow to KO things and is quick to get KOed itself. Therefore, in order to level it up, you have to bait and switch, which adds a considerable amount to a battle where one already strong Pokemon (Kadabra, Starter, whomever), can OHKO everything without having to switch. Now I agree that Gardevoir could probably solo (or duo + starter) the game by itself and that some of the Pokemon we've ranked S-tier have problems associated with them. However, in the beginning of the game (where you find Ralts and have to begin training it), your team is going to be smaller and considerably less powerful overall, meaning that the burden shared by each member is going to be greater than if it were late game and you have a bunch of powerful Pokemon at your disposal to spread the burden. Thus, having difficulties early-game is more debilitating and less conducive to efficiency than having the same difficulties late-game, where your teammates can carry you.

Now, Ralts, being not very useful until it's third stage, has to care it's disproportionate share of burden (though it lessens as the adventure progresses) for not the 4-6 levels that Abra needs (which could evolve into the highly useful Kadabra by Brawly), but for a whopping 27 levels on a slow level curve. That's 27 levels where it's not able to contribute meaningfully to the playthrough. If we say, "well pretty soon, you get enough good Pokemon to shift the burden off of Ralts", then why bother using Ralts at all? I will underscore this by saying that in my playthrough, even with EXP share ON, Ralts was a major pain in the ass to train.

Finally, if we say that Ralts is S-tier while Treecko is A-tier, we are saying that Ralts contributes more to an efficient runthrough than Treecko does, which, in my opinion, is blatantly false.

Treecko comes at the very beginning where all of the burden is on it and is able to perform exceptionally until other Pokemon can be found to help share the load, and even after that, it still performs admirably (with some trouble spots as noted, though these can be mitigated by team members). It has stellar early performance, and good-great mid-late level performance.

Ralts comes right after Treecko but is nowhere near up to the same level of performance until halfway through the game, where the need for superior performance diminishes as you have other options at your disposal and more Pokemon on your team. It has bad early-mid performance and stellar late performance.

Thus, Ralts should not be tiered above Treecko.

And don't give me shit about not comparing Pokemon, I explained my position in my earlier post. Tier lists literally mean nothing if you have more useful (in the sense it's being used for tier lists) Pokemon ranked above less useful ones, which is what will happen if Ralts is S and Treecko is A.

The best solution is to keep Treecko in A and move Ralts down to A. Gardevoir's exceptional performance once it evolves gives it enough utility to keep it in A rank, even taking into account its disappointing beginning.

 

[Bard of Rage]

I have to say I'm also a bit iffy on Latios being in S. I used one for my playthrough, and sure it's strong, but it gets almost no moves. Its go-to move is Dragon Breath, which is outpowered by Surf, and you know you've got it bad when your STAB is weaker than your other moves. Sure, Luster Purge is stronger, but it has a measly 5 PP, which severely hinders it. Latios gets Recover, but that's inferior to ingame healing items, which have absolute priority and can heal more than 50%. Next notable move it gets is Zen Headbutt at 41, which runs off its weaker attack and will probably be inferior to Luster Purge unless you really like the flinch chance. Then it gets Power Split at 46 (lol) and Psychic at 51, which is great, but comes far too late. By the time mine learned that, I was at about the 8th Gym, and while welcome I really wish it had gotten it sooner. Next is Dragon Pulse, which mine didn't even learn until postgame.

It picks up some nifty TMs/HMs, namely Surf. It also gets stuff like Ice Beam, but that requires backtracking all the way to Sea Mauville, and Thunderbolt, which would be great for Gym 8, but is sadly only available until after said Gym. It also picks up Psyshock, which is again nice, but comes way too late, and requires you to go all the way to Pacifidlog to get. It also gets Draco Meteor in Sootopolis, which is about when you'd expect that move to turn up, and while it is a massive nuke, it almost forces you to switch out afterwards.

Latios performs alright at the Gyms, but it doesn't really get any supereffective damage on any of them, unless you're willing to damage its partner with Surf vs Tate and Liza. The E4 is just unkind to poor Latios. It's weak to all of their STAB moves, and most of the Champion's Pokemon resist at least one of its STABs. It can take on Drake if it has to, but if it doesn't have Dragon Pulse by then (mine didn't), then it either has to switch out after Draco Meteor or risk missing the KO with Dragon Breath. It can get Dragon Claw if you want, but that's all the way over in Meteor Falls and runs off its weaker Attack.

To sum up, is Latios good? Yes, but its movepool is lackluster until endgame, and even then it doesn't do well against the endgame opponents, namely, the Elite 4. Good enough for A, certainly, but not S, in my opinion.

 

[SimicCombine]

Having used Ralts through about halfway through the game, it may be a pile of suck as Ralts that crushes Brawly, but it's still a pile of suck. My Ralts of equal level missed the 1HKO on Makuhita and barely survived an itemless Knock Off. Kirlia is a little better, but even then Confusion fails to KO a bunch of Fighting types and it has poor survivability until it gets Draining Kiss. I'll defer judgment that Gardevoir rocks, but the babying required until level 25 would knock it down to A in my opinion.

 

[The Shortest Path]

I'm of the opinion that the only things that really belong in S tier are Pokemon that are consistently excellent for the entire game with very few down points. In most tier lists (in general, not specifically for pokemon), S represents things that are way above and beyond the things that are otherwise solidly good. In that respect, S should probably only consist of Mudkip, Torchic, Lotad, Abra, and maybe Marill. Anything that shows up later than that or is otherwise delayed to lategame isn't contributing way above and beyond to the entire run, only parts of it. That's not to say anything in A is bad whatsoever, but like someone else said earlier the nitpicking should be much more concentrated at the top of the tier instead of the bottom, because that's what people are likely to care more about.

Also I'd like to re-mention my suggestion for Oddish, I think it got lost in the previous page.

 

[11pikabro]

For a trainer who cannot level up his Pokemon that high in-game, I could say a couple of things about a few Pokemon.

Treecko-- I'd make it A. It has the Speed but lacks enough power and bulk to go one-to-one against many important Pokemon. It really bothered me that I couldn't directly switch it in at times, too, because I knew it could easily take on said threats when they had some initial damage. Its movepool is pretty good, though, with Grass Pledge being my preferred STAB. It has Low Sweep and Rock Tomb for coverage early game and Focus Blast and Earthquake late game. Dual Chop tended to be underwhelming even after Mega Evolving, but it had its use against Drake.

Marill--I only used it on the same route I caught it (Route 117) and at the Mauville Gym, but using it in those areas made me sure it was S-rank material. Evolving Marill into Azumarill was very easy thanks to its Fast Exp Growth, which is exactly what I wanted because then I could teach it Bulldoze. Because I was lacking decent damage output for the Mauville Gym before catching it, Azumarill became the largest contributor to beating Wattson for my team. It had the bulk to tank a Volt Switch and then retaliate with a Bulldoze, which either OHKO'd a Pokemon or got the Speed drop to easily follow-up with another Bulldoze. So, I can say that Marill does not at all have a slow start upon its first possible capture. The new early-access to Play Rough sounds highly useful, and it can make a very convenient HM slave if you're not using it on your team.

Tentacool--I'm fine with it being B-rank. It has a slightly rough start (I tended to rely on Supersonic and fellow teammates for KOs), but once it gets its moves it holds its own very well. Water Pulse, at the low levels my Pokemon were during the early-mid game, was noticeably weak, even against Flannery's team. Toxic Spikes, however, was the reason I got past not only Flannery but also (or rather especially) Norman. Tentacool's Acid Spray is potent against any opponent, and the move, in addition to Tentacool's good bulk, made Tentacool a very reliable team support. By the time it becomes a Tentacruel, it can hold its own in battle thanks to reliable STAB Surf in addition to Acid Spray. Water-Poison is great typing, especially in Omega Ruby where almost all of Team Magma's Pokemon can be handled by Tentacool alone (once it gets its Water STAB anyway).


These are the ones I can confirm/support viability. In the meantime, I have a question:
How important should we consider the harsh sunlight/heavy downpour phenomenon when Groudon/Kyogre are awakened?

This may seem somewhat trivial to consider for viability, but I for one had fun abusing the non-stop harsh sunlight effect in Omega Ruby by sending in my Camerupt on any Swimmer I saw during this phenomenon. I could easily train it during that time thanks to the effective Water immunity and the ability to fire as many Solarbeams as I pleased without worry. That way, Camerupt could keep up with the rest of my team members in terms of levels, since it'd fall behind when I challenge Sootopolis Gym after the weather returns to normal. It's possible that someone else has probably abused the heavy downpour for training, too, since TM 25 (Thunder) is also available by that time. I don't know if heavy rain will change much, considering that Pokemon that would use Thunder would probably be fine at the sea routes regardless of the presence of heavy rain.

 

[Celever]

Ender, please don't compare Pokémon with other Pokémon whilst making your arguments. "Ralts should be A-Tier because Treecko is similar to it but does its job better" isn't what we're looking for here, as we rank Pokémon based on their own merit. Plus, I think you're wrong on that front anyway! ;)

Ralts (Gardevoir):
Availability: One of the first things you can catch.
Typing: Actually very good. Psychic-Type is not good on its own, however Fairy-Type is very good in this game, and the Psychic-Type part of this line gives it fantastic match-ups against a lot of regular trainers, even if lacking in major fights.
Stats: Fine, Ralts' stats aren't great. Or good. However, look at the stage in the game it is. It's one of the first things you catch, and it actually outspeeds a lot of stuff you will be fighting at the time, most of which is also very frail to a decent special attack, which Ralts has. It's frail, but it's powerful, and in this stage it's a bit of a glass cannon, which are not at all bad. Kirlia's stats are also pretty good, giving it decent special bulk and even higher special attack. Later on in the Kirlia form is the only point in the game where your Ralts may start to lag a bit. Gardevoir's stats are incredible for an in-game run, with base 125 special attack KO'ing a large portion of the game with its good attacks. 80 Speed could be better, but it doesn't mean too much, as a lot of the major battles in this game feature slower Pokémon.
Movepool: It has Confusion from the time you get it, giving it a spammable 75 BP (factoring in STAB) attack, which, coming off of the base 45 Special Attack, isn't bad this early in the game. Ralts then learns Disarming Voice before even Roxanne, giving it a decent dual-STAB (60 BP with STAB) and lets it be actually super-effective against the abundant Poochyena in Hoenn, unlike in the original games. Ralts also now gets Magical Leaf at level 17, giving it some pretty good coverage, and lets it put in some work while you're on the water, as you only get TM: Thunderbolt after the 8th gym. These three moves alone makes Gardevoir very diverse with its moveset. By the time you get to Gardevoir, you will have also moved on to Draining Kiss (or possibly Dazzling Gleam? Unsure what level it would be when you get the TM in Route 123) and Calm Mind, with Psychic coming at level 31 for Gardevoir. It also gets the Energy Ball TM to replace Magical Leaf in the Safari Zone. From that point on it destroys.
Major Battles: Actually very good. There isn't a single gym leader or elite four member in Hoenn which resists Fairy-Type attacks. In fact, Brawly, Sidney and Drake are all weak to them! The only major battle which hits Gardevoir super-effectively is actually the champion battle against Steven, but even then Gardevoir has Focus Blast as a TM and superior speed to mostly power through the fight. It does decently against Roxanne's Geodude thanks to her abysmal special-defense, but steer clear of Nosepass. From their, its special defense is decent enough for it to put in some work against Wattson (as long as you stay away from Magnet Bomb) and Flannery. It struggles against Norman (which is the period of lag) but is back with a vengeance against Winona, powering through Swellow with Psychic, Altaria with Dazzling Gleam and chipping down Pelipper with either or. Skarmory is a problem, though. Gardevoir has Shadow Ball for Tate and Liza, and has Energy Ball for Wallace. Fairy-Type moves power through Sidney and Drake, Shadow Ball powers through Phoebe and Focus Blast, Shadow Ball and Energy Ball/Thunderbolt collectively destroy Glacia. Like I mentioned before, Steven is Gardevoir's only awful major fight, but even then it can power through decently with Focus Blast spam.
Other: I think that you're all really underestimating Ralts early-game. Its stats aren't the best, but its movepool more than makes up for that! Let's take a look at one of the single greatest Pokémon in the game, Mudkip. It has Water Gun for STAB, like Ralts, except that looking at both the BP and STAB for the move it is weaker than Ralts' Confusion. Mudkip is a little bulkier and has the same speed as Ralts, but I hope this shows Ralts' early-game power.

Corphish (after thinking about it I think A fits it better, but people are also saying B so I'm typing this out anyway):
Availability: Worse than I thought -- after the Balance Badge. I thought you had it in time for Flannery lol.
Typing: Not bad, but not amazing either. It doesn't have a bad typing against any major battles, and has favourable matchups against Tate and Liza, Phoebe and Glacia. Water-Type is obviously good against Team Magma, and not bad against Aqua -- they resist each other -- but Corphish has some TMs available to help overcome the stalemate match-ups. Dark-Type is pretty decent in this game.
Stats: Good attack, even as Corphish, though you won't be a Corphish for very long. Once you evolve into Crawdaunt it has monstrous attack and actually pretty decent special attack. It's quite physically bulky, though it's nothing special. Its speed is a slight let-down, but that's the extent of its problems with stats.
Movepool: This is a strong point for sure. It comes with Bubble Beam, Protect, Double Hit and Knock Off, learning Night Slash a level later. This gives it a powerful Dark-Type move as soon as it evolves at level 30. It learn Razor Shell as a Crawdaunt and level 32, giving it a very good physical Water-Type move to abuse from there, and even gets Crabhammer at level 40. This means that you will always have a powerful STAB physical attack coming off of that monstrous attack-stat once you get to Crawdaunt. It gets some good TMs in that of Dig, X-Scissor and Brick Break to further its diversity.
Major Battles: From the time you get it (just after Norman) it can genuinely hold its own pretty well. Winona is a fairly neutral matchup overall, but neutral matchups also tend to be great for Crawdaunt thanks to its incredibly powerful attacks. Tate and Liza are just dead to Crawdaunt, and it has a rather favourable match-up against Wallace thanks to him not being able to do a lot to you. Watch out for his Luvdisc's Fairy-Type attacks (though it's a Luvdisc, so what's it really going to do to you?) and you'll be fine spamming Night Slash or Crunch. Use the X-Scissor or Brick Break TMs on Crawdaunt to power through Sidney (though expect to take a few hits in the process), and you have a decent match-up against the rest of the Elite Four. Phoebe is just dead to your Dark-Type moves, and Glacia is for the most part as well. Especially because she has two Froslass this time around, giving you favourable match-ups against 2/5 of her team. Glalie can't do a whole lot to Crawdaunt, and neither can Walrein, despite its bulk. Drake has many of the same problems. Altaria has Moonblast which is threatening, but Kingdra can't do anything to Crawdaunt. It's a fairly even match-up, but it's one of Crawdaunt's worst. Crawdaunt can pummel Steven with Digs and Brick Breaks, leading to a decent match-up.
Other: I think A for now, just because on second thought it's not of the same pedigree as the rest of S-Rank. Still, B is too low, as from the time you get it, it is very good. Not incredible, but it is worthwhile having one on your team.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, there are my arguments. Changes since my last post (not many):
Electrike S --> A (fair enough. I tried to make an argument for it to stay in S, but I realised it really shouldn't be lol)
Corphish S --> A (It can move down to B if there's an over-whelming majority, but I really disagree with Corphish in B tier)
Magnemite A --> S
Cacnea B --> C
Shroomish added to Untested (I forgot to do this last time)

More discussion needed (a lot of great nominations here):
Lotad S --> A (I will make an argument for this thing to stay S when I have time. I'm definitely confident in this one instead of Corphish where I was confident then realised I wasn't.)
Zubat B --> A
Oddish (Vileplume) C --> B
Groudon A --> S
Kyogre A --> S (I don't like the legends being in S because they are so late, but I'll look into it more and post my thoughts then)
Latias S --> A
Latios S --> A
Swablu C --> B (I am going to use a Swablu, so I'll post my thoughts on this in a couple weeks when I finish the game. I'd still like discussion on Swablu now though)
Tropius A --> B
Geodude (No Trade) A --> B (was this for Geodude (Trade) as well or not? I can't really tell)
Magikarp A --> S
Tentacool B --> A (maybe? It's a possible shift for sure)
Ralts (Gardevoir) S --> A (I obviously disagree lol)

I think I found them all, but if you nominated something and it wasn't shot down which isn't on this list, just quote it and I'll add it in the next list that I do. At this stage it looks likely that Shroomish is going to A, but there's still a bit of a blurred line there.

Also, I would like some feedback on the OP. I've heard that it look a bit cramped, but I haven't put spaces between the Pokémon because I want to be mindful of mobile users (I use an iPad quite frequently, which crashes if you open something too big. I'm afraid a spaced out list might do that). Just let me know what you think and I'll change it accordingly.

 

[Perfect Shadow]

By the time you get to Gardevoir, you will have also moved on to Draining Kiss (or possibly Dazzling Gleam? Unsure what level it would be when you get the TM in Route 123) and Calm Mind, with Psychic coming at level 31 for Gardevoir.

If you have a spare Heart Scale then Moonblast is a starting move for Gardevoir, meaning a possible 95 BP STAB move at level 30 (not quite as impressive as Play Rough at 25 but certainly not bad). Kirlia also learns Psychic at level 30 (same level as it evolves), so Gardevoir can have Psychic at 30 rather than 31 (it's only one level but I thought I'd point it out nonetheless).

 

[Ender]

Ender, please don't compare Pokémon with other Pokémon whilst making your arguments. "Ralts should be A-Tier because Treecko is similar to it but does its job better" isn't what we're looking for here, as we rank Pokémon based on their own merit. Plus, I think you're wrong on that front anyway! ;)

I'm not sure if this was a facetious statement or not but in the event that it is not:

That's not what I said at all. I said that if treecko is - in terms of general, overall utility - better than ralts, ralts should not be ranked higher on a tier list that judges pokemon based on the utility they provide to an efficient playthrough. Otherwise the list is inherently useless. At the very least they should be ranked the same.

If it was facetious then I apologize for my inability to recognize this.

Sorry I am not able to respond more at the moment - will try to later today or tomorrow.

 

[Colonel M]

Keep Golem in A. I even doubt Graveler outside of A. Yes it sort of drops off after Winona but you can box it and say no big deal.

 

[orkid]

hi Colonel M i didn't mean to offend you i missed your post and made a false assumption about the tier list from looking at it. thanks for taking my ideas seriously in any case.

Before getting to the 'discussion needed' pokes I just want to make two points:

Treecko- IMO either belongs in S tier, or if it belongs in A then S and A tiers needs to be re-thought (which is fine it just means a lot will drop). If Treecko isn't in S then I really don't think anything should be S but the other starters, maybe the box legends and magnemite maybe. evrything else seems worse from my perspective than treecko. was anyone else unable to teach their starter a pledge move? i have searched on serrebii and google and not found anything about the pledge tutor requiring max happiness or any other standard. I guess maybe if the pledge move is hard to get Treecko could be A. I just walked in and got the move and I did nothing special to my Treecko in game. Everyone who is arguing treecko for A - what battles is it really not good at? to me it seems just flying badge? even there rock tomb is helpful. it only struggles vs torkoal on flannery - grass pledge is a 2hko on torkoal iirc. I said 2-3 hko vs magenton cause mine was a +spA nature so I wanted to downplay the power. NVE Grass Pledge is equal to neutral mega drain... and you can delay for giga drain, and it has great coverage, and needs no difficult to get tms and well it just slaughtered the game for me. As for 'you can't switch it' argumemts - does that really matter? In game i hardly ever switch in - treecko's grass pledge + mega drain basically ensured it took shit down and didn't need much healing, despite having low defenses. also leaf storm is a heart scale move for sceptile which gives obscene power off 145 megaevo spA, even if you have to switch out/use leaf blade afterwards...

Carvahna - I really don't see this as a case-closed pokemon, what do other people think? is fast surf enough for S tier? the argument about making going back and getting tms/items easier seems off to me because you're not really doing that in an efficiency run, are you? i don't really do it at least. team magma/aqua are so easy to beat i don't see that as a good argument either. Colonel M- what tier would you say it should be in if not for the speed-surfing? i would guess B or even C, which makes it hard for me to accept S

Shroomish=mach punch - A tier as it stands now, B tier maybe if A tier gets changed a bunch but honestly probably not. you level up so fast early on (its exp group means you level up faster than marill), then you procede to destroy everything with mach punch til late game. here i am cheating a little cause i assume you're evolved for Watson, but really you should be with that exp group and its barely over-leveled. even late game you're still doing good damage with mach punch. late learning and low base power of sky uppercut/brickbreak/seed bomb don't matter very much with 130 attack. speed stat lets you outspeed enough, and also mach punch (have i mentioned how much damage mach punch does? ;)

Anorith and Cradilly. to phrase it not as a comparison: Lileep is not a B tier pokemon - it has mediocre typing, it is slow, its attack stats are mediocre, its not available early enough to overlook these flaws. It is probably D tier. Anorith is probably C tier - bug/rock is a good attacking combo, it has decent bulk and high attack. Its defense stats as an unevolved anorith are low, but i'm not arguing it for S tier, while sharpedo's defense stats are awful and you are arguing it for S tier.

Cacnea - is D tier. cacnea goes second almost always and dies in 1-2 hits. which means if you're facing a trainer with more than 1 pokemon, cacnea/cacuturne will be in trouble, even if it has a defensive type advantage, which is rare because it has so many weaknesses and with such low def stats it has trouble taking much of anything. If C tier is mediocre/avergae it is worse than that.

from Celever 'discussion needed' section:
Lotad S --> A It seems like M-Colonal begrudgingly agrees (thanks for explaining how it is def better than in the original games, that was very helpful), while Celever doesn't - so I'd love to know why. Lotad does not seem nearly as good to me as Treecko. Its hard to make the comparison but maybe its about as good as the Lati@s, so it can get tiered with them IMO, but Treecko's tiering decision should basically decide the upper limit of A/Lower limit of S.

Zubat is fine in B, if anything it could be in C. happy evolution + mediocre offensive stats + decreased importance of fly thanks to soar. stab acrobatics and high speed aren't enough to make this A, also its stabs aren't that useful in-game what impt battles is it really acing?

Oddish (Vileplume): didn't use, but don't see it above C tier. Reading The Shortest Path's description that sounds pretty average, even a little worse. Farfetch'd in XY beats 2 gyms and is in D tier. Whereas the leaf stone is available easily and early on in XY its pretty late in ORAS, that makes a big difference. what badges is it soloing?

Groudon A --> S & Kyogre A --> S Probably S since they can solo after you catch them, but A is fine cause they're so late.

Lati@s- to A - I do kinda support this, i just feel weird saying it. they do have real trouble vs the e4

Tropius C/D - What battles is it winning? HM slaving is not that valuable when you take up an entire team slot with a pokemon that has ~70 offensive stats

Geodude w/o trade - Is probably C tier. If you're boxing it past Winona then I dunno, how useful is it? Graveler's attack stat is mediocre and its speed is bad. Golem's stats are better, it is probably B tier. Geodude is quite rare in granite cave and evolves 13-15 levels after you catch it, that doesn't sound like A tier to me.

 

[Nonary Game]

Corphish to B rank at best.

No one will doubt he hits like a damn truck, but he's a bit slow, and you really can't get one until after the 5th badge, snipe the Good Rod from Route 118, and then backtrack to Petalburg/Rt 102, and it's a rare catch atop that, so valuable time is lost trying to catch one. Sure he evolves pretty quick at that point (5 levels), but he's still slow and inefficient. His STABs aren't great against most of the late game anyways (Water types everywhere, and half the E4 beats him hard).

If anyone has arguments against this, I'm open to it.

 

[Celever]

Corphish to B rank at best.

No one will doubt he hits like a damn truck, but he's a bit slow, and you really can't get one until after the 5th badge, snipe the Good Rod from Route 118, and then backtrack to Petalburg/Rt 102, and it's a rare catch atop that, so valuable time is lost trying to catch one. Sure he evolves pretty quick at that point (5 levels), but he's still slow and inefficient. His STABs aren't great against most of the late game anyways (Water types everywhere, and half the E4 beats him hard).

If anyone has arguments against this, I'm open to it.

Look at my post a bit higher on the page. Corphish actually has great match-ups from the time you catch it, and it's a 20% catch rate, which is barely even rare. It's slow, but not inefficient...

Also orkid, that post had a lot of comparisons in it... Geodude (No Trade) and Geodude (Trade) are probably in the same tier. Even though Golem is better, it's not overwhelmingly so.

 

[Nonary Game]

Look at my post a bit higher on the page. Corphish actually has great match-ups from the time you catch it, and it's a 20% catch rate, which is barely even rare. It's slow, but not inefficient...

Also orkid, that post had a lot of comparisons in it... Geodude (No Trade) and Geodude (Trade) are probably in the same tier. Even though Golem is better, it's not overwhelmingly so.

Fair enough. Just not a fan of the speed personally.

 

[orkid]

Celever - imo there is a dif between making a comparison that says - X pokemon is better than that Y pokemon, so X has to be above it and making a comparison that says X pokemon is better than that Y pokemon, so X should not be below Y. I am not saying that the tiers have to be made of all equal pokemon, i am saying no pokemon should be higher than a pokemon that is better than it. I think taht's what Ender is getting at with the Ralts/treecko comparison.

Golem is tiered higehr than graveler in XY's (unconfirmed) tier list. 120 attack is way better than 95. it also has better bulk. i'd guess that would make a significant dif vs steven and drake. but if i'm wrong that's cool

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I'm impressed people legitimately want Treecko in A/S. It's a B at most for me, I seriously don't know how I kept using it when the rest of the team carried it.

 

[Karxrida]

Latios was my carry during the Elite Four since the Mega hits so friggin hard and you get all of your coverage moves (T-Bolt, Psychic/Psyshock, Draco Meteor (yes this works), Surf) by then. Sydney's team is full of frail shit that dies in 1 hit a lot of the time, Hulu-Skirt chick can be taken out with Shadow Ball (PP is filled when you use TMs unlike in Gen V, so you can replace Psychic, Psyshock, or Zt-Bolt), Glacia also has frail shit while Walrwin dies to T-Bolt, and Drake loses to Draco Meteor (and you'll probably OHKO something even at minus 2, but switch out afterwards) or even Ice Beam if you went to grab that. Steven's Metagross and Sturdy Aggron with D-Claw are the only things that threaten you but everything else is in the bag. Note that I was not overleveled when I fought Steven, and his Metagross was stronger than everything I had bar my Demo Glalie (which I never really used).

Dragonbreath is passable until you get to Sootopolis and you can dump it for Draco or go to Pacifidlog to grab Psyshock. Luster Purge's PP may be annoying but Surf/Dragonbreath are enough.

 

[Bard of Rage]

I think Zubat belongs in A. Its movepool when you catch it is a bit lackluster, sure, consisting of Leech Life, Supersonic, Astonish and if you're lucky, Bite, when you catch it. However, it quad resists Brawly's STAB, which is useful, and if you've done a bit of training since you caught it it should have Wing Attack by the time you fight him (it learns it at level 13), and if it doesn't have it yet it can use Supersonic to turn Brawly's higher attack stats against him. It gets Confuse Ray at 17 to replace Supersonic, but struggles against Wattson. The game isn't all Gym Leaders, though, and Zubat does just fine against standard Trainers, and can help against your Rival's Combusken if you picked Treecko.

Happiness evolution isn't an issue either; the Soothe Bell is available at Slateport. If you haven't let it faint too much, and give it the Soothe Bell ASAP, it should only spend one level as a Golbat, becoming Crobat at level 23, which is just ridiculous at that stage in the game. Crobat's stats should be enough to overcome its lacking movepool; its next move of note is Poison Fang at 27, which is weaker than Wing Attack but has a nice chance to badly poison. Things really pick up at level 35, though, which is when Crobat learns Acrobatics. Held items aren't as important ingame, and base 110 STAB at this stage is very powerful. I found my Crobat picking up several KO's I didn't expect, and I later found it it has an attack IV of 0, so chances are your Crobat will perform even better than mine. Crobat also picks up Fly for utility, and also for another STAB if you want your Crobat to hold and item. Crobat gets Cross Poison vi Heart Scale, which can replace Poison Fang and makes for a good secondary STAB with a nifty crit chance.

Crobat performs okay against Flannery bar Torkoal, but is too frail to stand up to Norman. By Winnoa it should have Acrobatics, so it can brute force its way through her, minus Skarmory of course. Crobat sucks vs Tate and Liza, but performs well against the Gym Trainers, largely due to its high speed and the frailty of several of their Pokemon, namely Kadabra and Kirlia. Crobat can do alright against Wallace, but it lacks the sheer power to break Milotic 1v1, and will take a lot of damage from Ice Beam. When it comes to the E4, Crobat does well against Sidney as his Pokemon are a bit frail, and two of them are weak to Crobat's STABs. It fails to do much to the rest, although its speed can allow it to revenge kill.

Crobat is very underrated in my opinion. It gained a negative reputation in peoples' minds thanks to the nightmare that was Rock Tunnel and Mt. Moon, but is actually a decent ingame pick. It requires babying to begin with, yes, but no more than say, Ralts.

 

[orkid]

Hi Bard of Rage I love zubat. Its one of my fave pokes and I used him a bit in oras. i just don't think stab acrobatics is enough for A. i agree you get crobat early with soothe bell (also i fed mine whatever vitamins i found on the way to him evolving to crobat it even fainted once and still evolved level 23). i think the early part where he has no flying stab is annoying and that he's not great vs the elite four. C was too harsh of me, B seems right to me, if B means 'performs well but not excellent' then to me that fits zubat.

Hi Karxrida - I didn't think of draco meteor at all! i just had dragon breath/psychic cause i 'remembered' Latios learned dragon pulse at wallace but couldn't be bothered to get another heart scale. (of course, he doesn't learn it in oras). S seems more plausible now. though always switching out sucks, no? you end up taking lots of damage vs drake i'd guess? i agree surf is strong pre-e4. I don't think thunderbolt can count to an efficiency run though, it involves a side quest.

Hi Mario With Lasers - I really surprised. was your Treecko a -SpA nature? was mine just fucking amazing? the best treecko ever? in the top ten percent of all treeckos? maybe? Here is my exp with treecko vs the gyms/e4. i was not using exp share and had a team of 6+ (i changed pokes a few times). i wasn’t purposefully over leveled, if i was above level (i was for flannery) it was not by much. it held a miracle seed til the mega stone.

Roxanne- easily beat solo,

Brawly - mega drained to victory (didn’t solo the whole gym but beat brawly himself),

Watson - Solo with grass pledge, i used a paralyze heal at some point,

Flannery - wasn’t gonna use him and then what i was using fainted. then it beat numel and torkoal with grass pledge,

Norman - was using the traded makuhita. but i wanted to see how much grass pledge did, it beat his final slaking - grass pledge is a 2hko iirc,

winnona - didn’t use it here except to beat pellipper which it did,

liza and tate - used with surf m-Latios it did fine but you know who cares surf Latios is the real star,

wallace- soloed. aura beam from sealo didn’t do enough (i kept it un-megaevolved) leaf blade is strong vs mitotic,

sidney - beat. what are any of them doing to you? absol is too slow/frail to be a real threat . you have fighting/bug coverage but grass stab is enough most of the time (obvi bug for the cactus/tree)

phoebe - all of these ghosts are weak except dusknoir anyway, other than that its fine

glacia - beat the walrus, otherwise i didn't use it

drake- his grass stab does good damage vs the flygons and kingdra (watch out for ice beam/flamethrower but mine was a -spD nature and it lived flygon’s. flamethrower (kingdra yawned at me). he pairs well with a rock type for the two flyers.

steven- gets rid of claydol, aggron. can earthquake metagross but will not be able to beat it. you could heart scale night slash for metagross i guess but that seems very iffy to me. the rest are nope

Team Magma - Not a problem. rock tomb beats the 2 or 3 golbats. camerupt is shut down by grass pledge/megaevolving to remove the fire weakness. it beat the mega camerupt for me.

To me this seems very close to S.