To me this tier list seems very off. In part I think that is because I have beef with the old smogon Ruby/Sapphire tier lists and this one seems to start from it.
Hearing this seriously pisses me off.
I'm not even joking.
I spent
this entire post explaining how I created the tier list. In fact, I will even show you the Pastebin that I first presented to Celever before we re-structured it.
http://pastebin.com/LiZKngU5
Notice when the Pastebin was made.
November 9, 2014. Now let me show you the RS Tier list:
http://www.smogon.com/ingame/misc/adv_rse_ingametiers
Now let's have a peeksie at how different this is from the original RSE Tier list:
- Chinchou is ranked Top in the original RSE - something I would
never let through if I ran the tier list. Chinchou is way too damn late and has maybe a single battle where it shines at best barring against Magma / Aqua.
- Shroomish, who is decent but definitely not S-tier worthy.
- Skarmory, which is a good B candidate but certainly not S.
- Staryu is S Tier in this list. I think I put it in A due to its availability.
- Tentacool, which actually has pretty big problems because it is only obtainable at Level 5. Level 5 Tentacool is stuck with STAB Poison Sting, etc.
I mean this is just S and I can just go on and on. Let's try not to make baseless assumptions such as "this was structured the same as the original RSE tier list".
EVER.
AGAIN.
Here are my suggestions for S, which I think should be set a bit before the other tiers so we have a kind of base line of excellence. First, the pokemon that most belong in S in my opinion are the 3 starters. Mudkip and Torchic get nukes when they hit the 2nd form, Treeko's miracle-seed boosted mega drain is basically as strong as mudshot/doublekick. The pledges then give them tons of power for the mid-game (grass pledge 2-3hkos magenton - though my treeko has a spA boosting nature). Then the megaevolutions are very very powerful. Treeko might be the worst one but it still dominates the game. the other two starters are probably even better (I used treeko). They are all great vs the E4 as well.
Many people have already discussed that Treecko, a Pokemon even
I originally put into S Tier, was not good enough to be S. The majority of us agreed to its A Tier ranking. Why? Because it certainly isn't bad, but it still falls nickels and dimes short in important fights. It does good in quite a bundle of them but where it also excels well is outside important battles. It also has an okay standing in the E4 (it actually does something to Drake now).
Mentioning the pledges are iffy. IIRC they actually require a max happiness attached to it (I was not able to receive Fire Pledge with my Combusken). Even so, even taking Sturdy into account, 3HKOing Wattson is not very impressive. I would think Low Sweep would 2HKO a little better (maybe 3HKO Magneton) but honestly using Grovyle against Wattson is kind of eh.
Just running through whats in S now/what needs more discussion re:S tier-
Alakazam - didn't use him,I guess if you're saying evolve at level 16 it could be S - but how does it do late game? its matchups vs the elite four and the last 2 or even 3 gyms seem iffy to me. I'd say A is more likely (and Kadabra for B)
Alakazam has access to Shadow Ball versus Solrock and Lunatone (as well as the rest of the gym). Nevermind it also has an access to a Mega Evolution which pushes its offenses a lot further than the scrub Kadabras / Kirlias within the gym. I wouldn't even rank it bad against Wallace - 2-3 Calm Minds and firing off Psybeam / Psychic should nuke through Wallace like nothing. It can leverage itself with Focus Blast and Shadow Ball within the E4, but hey it isn't like Sceptile for example isn't doing godsend moments against Glacia and Phoebe, right?
- the typing is very useful and so is the surfing/hm slaving. but its so frail and has trouble out right winning any major battle its not hitting for STAB SE. Plus its in the slow exp group, which matters much more for it than say Latios. I say A (if you just use it as a surf slave then you catch a level 40 sharpedo with the super rod on rout 119 and that's super cool but I don't think hm slave should make it S)
This is the one that I will absolutely stand behind with it being
S and almost will take "no" for an answer. Again - Sharpedo is the only Pokemon that is capable of surfing at the speed that it does. It can save time just by it Surfing alone. Training it is pretty beneficial for the player even if it was just for 5 levels to get Sharpedo. It makes backtracking and obtaining TMs / items that require in-depth exploration must faster (think - Ice Beam TM, Rock Slide, etc). Though it sounds unlikely Carvanha and Sharpedo can usually take a hit. It can't be specific attacks, yes, but it can usually last through one. It still does more than fine against a lot of trainers (Magma / Aqua Grunts and even the Admins with Camerupt).
There's something I like to address that is also within this, but I'll actually address it when we get to the Lati twins.
seems A tier to me. Finally gets STAB when you catch it but it uses the worse attacking stat and it evolves kinda late and is in the slow exp group. What exactly does it beat besides fly/water badges? Volt switch is also either handy or annoying, my guess is usually annoying? It also lost special dark coverage from the old games. thunder tm is cool but inaccurate and late. also altaria still has earthquake.
Volt Switch is usually fine for a while. Sometimes it works out to Electrike's advantage (see: Norman). The biggest perk, though, is that there's Mega Manectric after the Lati twin scenario. Manectric loses its Dark-type special STAB; however, it also gains Overheat / Flamethrower to take advantage of too. Spark seems mediocre off base 45 Attack, but just a friendly reminder that it still has Howl. You also could teach it Charge Beam which would just make it power itself up throughout the fight. Just in case you really hate Volt Switch. Once you're 30 you have Discharge anyway. With Mega Manectric you shouldn't need anything beyond that until New Mauville scenario.
...I actually will come back to Electrike. I forgot it was in the Slow EXP tier too.
- I used Latios. I found him... less S tier than I'd assumed he'd be. I think they are S tier but I wonder if any one else was underwhelmed? they do well against most gyms and as hm slaves/route cleaners but they have a tough time against the E-4, who all hit them w/ SE STAB. Psychic TM so late also sucks. Also I just found they often had to mega evolve to 2hko and luster purge's pp was annoying. I guess heart scale dragon pulse (which I didn't realize til around wallace) would make big difference though. But yeah is anyone else skeptical?
This I actually admit I threw a lot of red flags. But you wouldn't have access to Dragon Pulse either (unless Serebii is wrong). Dragon Pulse was a Heart Scale attack in XY. It is not in ORAS. I actually further questioned Latias myself because I had Mist Ball and the PP usage drove me absolutely insane. Nevermind the base power is mediocre and Dragonbreath is mediocre as well. It has a few things like Charge Beam, Grass Knot, Shadow Ball, and other moves to kind of circumvent the issue I guess.
I think, though, if we are to accept that our Kyogre / Groudon deities will sweep once they arrive, though, I think Lati@s in S can be justified just because they come with no opportunity cost attached and are fairly useful up to that point (well actually up to Wallace). I actually want to point out Lati twins blow in the E4. Even Alakazam can bypass some issues.
To be decent you have to delay evolution by 4 levels (14 to 18) for mega drain. Then you have a grass type that can't really help you beat Watson (unlike shroomish, treeko and even seedot), a water type that takes a bunch of damage from flannery and can't use coverage to help with Winona. I dunno... is he really S tier? I've used lotad in the old hoenn games and found him underwhelming, maybe I am failing to see something that makes him much better in the new ones. I say A at the very best. Its less useful than Numel I think. things might be different if it were the only/best way to beat roxanne if you picked torchic but shroomish exists.
I disagree with this. I'm actually going to go full man-mode because I think everyone bashes Lotad way too damn much.
Lotad has one perk - it's a Water-type. Yes it does suck that you have to hold back for Mega Drain. Even if you did, Lotad would have the perk of having a little faster EXP boost. I mean both Shroomish and Lotad have the same base SpA. It's better to just evolve to Lombre, IMO, because eventually STAB Water will be superior to STAB Grass. This is especially true against Flannery, where Shroomish and Treecko are fairly prone against Torkoal (they can sort of be prone to Slugma if they miss Rock Tomb). Lotad also does slightly better against Team Magma's Numels and Camerupts. I honestly think that Lotad is more comparable to its Water-type brethren more than Grass-type, though, because you are right that Lotad is practically stuck with Absorb unless it holds back or waits right until before Winona.
Also to point out due to your line: "a water type that takes a bunch of damage from flannery and can't use coverage to help with Winona. I dunno... is he really S tier? I've used lotad in the old hoenn games and found him underwhelming, maybe I am failing to see something that makes him much better in the new ones." There are a couple things that changed:
- Lotad learns Bubble at Level 9. This was not available to Lotad in RSE.
This seems minor but it helps make a difference. Shroomish and Treecko both have STAB Mega Drain; however, Lotad can match that power
or even surpass it as a Lombre with Bubble.
- Lombre learns Bubblebeam at Level 24. This was not available to Lombre in RSE.
Water Pulse wasn't until Wallace and Surf wasn't until you defeated Norman. This is a key difference too because it gives Lombre an actual advantage against Flannery.
Though Lombre takes neutral damage from Flannery, it's better than SE.
Still, I think that you have a point. That's why I may agree with you on this - I think that Lotad should be within the same tier as Treecko. Ergo,
A.
My guess is Corphish is too slow and weak for S but I didn't use him and am so surprised to see him here I feel like I must have missed something? Also the Primals could be S i guess unless people think they come too late.
I'm thinking Corphish will drop to A / B tier. To be fair, though, it hits like a truck. But it is kind of held back more by its Speed than durability (in correlation with an efficient Pokemon playthrough Speed is more important than durability).
BTW for A tier -
Put Shroomish in A. Its great vs roxanne and decimates watson. it beats norman and is handy vs wallace. it is also helpful vs dark and ice e4s and steven.
I would not really use Breloom against Glacia in the E4. She has two Froslass (which nullify STAB Fighting-type attacks) and Walrein is pretty damn sturdy (I'm pretty sure it can live one attack from Breloom and OHKO it back). Breloom also is naturally slower than Glalie - though this one might be a little minor since base 70 with EVs vs uninvested 80 isn't likely much of a difference. Definitely has the edge on Sydney and the ones you mentioned. I wouldn't quite say "decimate" though - I think Geodude / Graveler do better in that department because they don't take squat from any of Wattson's Pokemon barring Magneton's Sonicboom.
Still it is pretty strong against a few important battles and does well outside. I think Shroomish in A has some justifying to it.
No to Zigzagoon and Tropius in A. HM slaves aren't good enough to be this high. There are other hm compatible mons that do much better in battle.
Maybe not Tropius, but definitely to Zigzagoon. Zigzagoon usually have Pickup as their ability and have earlygame prowess (STAB Tackle, even behind base 20 Attack, still leaves dents). Tropius is still unique since it carries the burden of the arguably two worst HMs (Rock Smash and Fly) and carrying the other mediocre one (Strength). I will agree behind B Tropius. B Zigzagoon? Might take a little more.
I'm also not convinced that Wingull belongs here. Its frail before it evolves and then its slow. it can't be roxanne which is what you need in an early water type. Its typing is great and so is the movepool and protect vs Norman is handy - but I found it less amazing than A tier.
Wingull does okay against Roxanne - it shines a lot brighter against Brawly since it has STAB Wing Attack at that point. Pelipper isn't terribly slow (base 65 is alright) and it has access to STAB Hydro Pump / Hurricane through Heart Scale. Oh, and Tailwind. :P It can last for a while.
oh and get cacnea out of B tier it is way too slow and frail and a bit rare. Maybe C? Probably D. (this comes from loving cacnea and using him in an xy run through in which he often died but he is very very cute).
C.
We'll give it a little benefit of the doubt that it can do okay in a few situations when trained.
also - anorith is better than cradilly
Nah.
Well...
Anorith fits a little better early on but I think Cradily > Armaldo at the end. Cradily transitions better with it being tankier. But honestly I think they should just meet up at C since they have moments of decency.
Though Anorith is fairly frail - almost comparable to Carvanha / Sharpedo which you were pretty quick to criticize on. And after looking at the EXP growth again - Erratic... kind of blows.
=====
So after all that said, I think I want to look into re-arranging S and A Tier.
S should be as follows
- Mudkip
- Torchic
- Abra (w/trade)
- Kyogre
- Groudon
- Carvanha
- Latios (?)
- Latias (?)
- Marill (?)
- Ralts (???)
A should be as follows
- Electrike
- Lotad
- Treecko
- Shroomish (?)
- Everyone else in A
EXCEPT TROPIUS
B should be as follows
- Corphish
- Tropius
- Everyone else
Reasons:
Kyogre / Groudon - though late, they have almost no real cost attached to them barring a few TMs (Kyogre with Thunder and probably Dragon Claw / Solarbeam for Groudon). Both wipe the floor from when they arrive to the end. Kyogre benefit of cool Surf (jk).
Lati Twins - both do fine with occasional hiccups. I believe that S does have room for Pokemon that sometimes do have minor mediocre periods or minor cons (this isn't FE8 Seth people). They're strong. They're free. They have a Mega Evolution to bolster their offense and defense. They learn a good amount of moves to overcome their problems. Minor hiccups like Marills / Poochyenas but hey - can't win them all.
Marill - powerful STABs by Level 25. Also has a pretty easy time against some of its matchups and even can be competent against matchups it doesn't really excel in (see - Winona).
Ralts - the most questionable of all. I'll wait for
Celever on this one specifically.
Electrike - it's strong, it's quick, it has a mega past Norman's gym. Relying on Volt Switch / Charge Beam is meh but it can work out in Electrike's favor. Slow EXP gain and having only handful of advantages makes A justifying for it.
Lotad, Treecko, Shroomish - though as I mentioned before with Lotad being more comparable with its Water-type brethren, one cannot deny it's still a Grass-type. The difference all three of these have are minor wins and losses in certain scenarios. I think overall Lotad's advantages eventually peter out better in some situations, but I can't deny it still has some shortcomings.
Tropius - Soar eventually replaces it and even Cut has only moderate uses when you actually obtain it. Still good, just probably not A. Feel free to argue it to stay in A.
Corphish - I sort of want to wait on
Celever for this one too but I can't deny that it really should be A-B tier. It's strong, but its still mediocre in frailty
and Speed.