I mean a replay was asked for and he gave one, it was only meant to demonstrate how lucario can clean up late game. I think lucario is fine in B- because in practice it isn't that hard to find just ONE free turn in a have to setup a swords dance and from there it does it's job effectively. But someone mentioned what I am about to earlier, lucario mainly shines by softening things up for higher quality sweepers as he shares common checks and is very effective at drawing those checks in and wearing them down. On top of all this it doesn't require a mega slot and honestly it doesn't really need too much team support. Lucario hasn't really gotten any worse this gen and I see no reason to drop him.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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I missed out on nominations for the second half of the last round, so I'll give my two cents on B- and C+ in a couple of big posts. Will neaten up later. Also, could somebody tell me how to create those tab things in a post? Just so my nominations don't take up half the fucking thread page lol. Would be much appreciated!
So...
B- Rank
Alomomola: Keep in B-, possibly drop to C+
I see no reason to raise Alom, and am leaning towards it dropping. The main reason for this is the fact that threats like SD Tox Orb Breloom, NP Thundurus, NastyPass Celebi etc are super common atm because Megabro's spinning around, and many of those same threats put massive pressure on Alom - especially within Stall - as they can either straight KO her or pivot with Volt Switch. From what I've seen in recent matches, she often forfeits a lot of momentum. Team slots on Stall are more valuable than ever, as it's pretty much become a game of packing multiple things that act as checks / counters to whatever threatens your win conditions (namely Megabro and Mega Sableye). So yeah, I'd say keep in B- for now but maybe drop based on what other people think.
Azelf: Not sure, possible raise?
I don't really have any experience with Azelf in OU, but I know some people proclaim it's the best lead since sliced bread in the current meta. Great speed tier and a great movepool (Rocks Screens, Taunt, fantastic coverage and, of course, Explosion) make it a fantastic lead for Offense. Choice sets are also viable and unexpected, and can provide a Greninja check. That's something we could always do with (cry). I'd love to hear some thoughts from people who have more experience using it, but I'll stay undecided for now.
Conkledurr: Raise to B
Conk is making a bit of a comeback atm. I remember the start of gen 6, when Conk was literally ubiquitous in the meta. He kind of died down because of Talonflame and Azumarills' dominating presences and everybody seemed to forget about him. At the moment though, he's really strong, and a lot of people just don't expect him and therefore don't really prepare much for him. I've done some testing with Poison Jab over Ice Punch and it works a treat. Yes, Lando-T is super common, but hitting it with a Knock Off on the switch is always nice to remove a potential scarf, and screwing over Fairy switch-ins like Azu, Sylveon and Mega Alt is a very welcome thing indeed. I've heard that Sheer Force and Guts sets are also pretty powerful on the right teams but again I don't have experience using them. Also, with Mega Sableye running around on 9/10 Stall teams and loads of new fast, physical megas testing out the meta, burns are all over the place, so Conk can pick up a boost, or deter a Will-o more easily than ever before. Finally, Conk can check Ninja really, really well, and threatens the Mach Punch or straight Knock Off bop on the switch. Definite raise imo.
Cresselia: Raise to B
A fanstastic tool for Balance and Stall. Greninja is such a defining force in the metagame, and Cress isn't even 2HKO'd by LO Dark Pulse and can heal up with Moonlight whilst wearing it down. The ever-mentioned prevalence of Lando-T also allows Cress some EQ switch-ins, especially on scarfed variants. Healing Wish is great for bringing back so many of the fast 'n' frail threats ORAS introduced (Mega Lop, Mega Scep, Mega Beedril etc), or even bulky ones that attract burns (Mega Metagross), which can be achieved with Heal Bell too. Cress is also a powerful tool for Trick Room teams. I know a lot of people will find that a laughable reason to warrant a raise, but well built TR teams are reallllly strong in the metagame atm because of the speed creep. And anything that can set up TR in the face of Ninja should be seriously considered.
Doublade: Drop to C+ or C
Doublade was a niche pick for stall teams in XY, and it's even more niche now. It provided a good stop to Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham simultaneously, and could also check Mega Pinsir but now that the mega pool has been so thouroughly diluted, and these Megas aren't at the top of the pile anymore, Doublade finds itself pretty far outside of its comfort zone. I'm sure it'll still find use on some hipster Stall teams, but it doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the B ranks imo.
Empoleon: Keep in B-
Same as at the start of the ORAS meta. Provides one of the strongest Ninja checks without being passive, and can be used to scout for Low Kick. Has a unique defensive typing that synergises well with a load of threats, can fish for Scald burns pretty ruthlessly, can set up SR and phase... however, its role hasn't changed at all since the ORAS release. I could see it dropping over time, as it gets slammed hard by pretty much all the top threats that aren't non-LK Ninja. I'd say keep it where it is for now and see how the metagame changes around it. If Ninja gets banned it'll probably drop imo.
Garchomp (Mega): Keep in B-
Megachomp's role also hasn't really changed and it still finds itself being pretty much outclassed by Vanillachomp. People can argue that it should drop because of speed creep etc but it doesn't really need to be outspeeding any of the new threats, so I would argue it's largely unaffected by it. It's still a damn powerful wallbreaker that's hard to switch into. Good on certain teams, but still overlooked, and bears a pretty crushing opportunity cost alongside the other, earth-shattering Megas. I'd say still a shitty choice, but too powerful to be lowered. Would love to hear other opinions.
Gothitelle: Keep in B-
This is a toughie. On the one hand, Stall teams are fairly prevalent atm, and trapping is as useful as ever partly as a result. However, there's been a big rise in the usage of Shed Shell to combat this, and Gothitelle also loses against both Mega Sableye and Megabro, basically awarding them free setup opportunities. I'd say keep it where it is, as it's definitely still something to watch out for, but Stall has some new ways to deal with it.
Houndoom (Mega): Raise to B or B+
I've used Megadoom on a couple of teams, and can only vouch for what everybody else has already said. It matches up so well vs so many threats. Lando-T and Rotom-W are still everywhere though, which is annoying, but pressuring Mega Sableye and Megabro simultaneously is awesome. Definite raise.
Klefki: Raise to B+
Pretty much the definition of a useful tool. Performs on the same utilitarian level as Thundurus-I, and is basically the go-to T-Wave spammer now. Has excellent defensive typing too (I saw Magnet Rise mentioned earlier. It's oh so trolly) which lets it perform its job just that much better. Obviously still lower than Thundy because it lacks any kind of threatening offensive presence, but it's such a sick support choice and definitely deserves a big raise.
Lucario: Keep in B-
I never see Luke anymore above like 1200.However, I really don't feel it's bad enough to drop, it just gets badly overlooked. I wonder if its popularity is still at a low after MegaLuke got banned ages ago, and people just forgot how good the original was, but it still has some serious mid-late game cleaning potential, and strong priority has literally never been more useful.
Scolipede: Raise to Bor B+
Scolipede is such a powerful tool for offense. It basically holds the top spot as best Quickpasser alongside NP Celebi, and Quickpassing is really strong atm, being able to break down teams and provide momentum all in one go. In my opinion, the best Scolipede set atm is the Sash Hazards + Endeavour set, which just applies craaazy amounts of pressure from turn 1, and it's one I'm seeing more and more on all stages of the ladder. Scolipede's been due a raise for a while and I could even see it hitting low As.
Sharpedo (Mega): Keep in B-
For me, this all comes down to high opportunity cost. Literally the only reason you use Mega Sharpedo is for SJ boosted Crunch. I do admit this is nothing to scoff at, as after a speed boost it has incredible lategame cleaning potential. However, what annoys me most about MegaSharp is the fact you can only use Speed Boost when you aren't mega'd. So literally the only stage you're properly utilising it for is the late game. It mimicks a one-time setup sweeper, and personally I'd rather use regular Sharp with another Mega, and save the singular setup for something like Hawlucha. Idk, personal preference I guess and I know a lot of people like it. I'd love to hear more opinions, but I don't really see a reason to move it up yet. Breloom is also around more often and unless Sharp runs Ice Fang it gets off a free hit / Spore / setup.
Staraptor: Not sure
I'd rather leave Staraptor discussion to people who have more experience using it this generation. It's still strong, but idk if it really does enough to stay where it is / does too much to drop. I also don't see a huge amount of birdspam, perhaps because of Mega Diancie, Megabro etc? Enlighten me!
Sylveon: Raise to B
Imo by far Sylveon's best set atm is Specs. It absolutely decimates most switch-ins, obliterates Mega Sableye and Megabro, coverage nails switch-ins unblievably hard e.g. Shadow Ball for Gross on the switch, HP Fire for Ferro and Scizor etc. Sylveon is so sick on Bulky Offense. Subs are also everywhere on shit like Mega Scep, Mega Loppuny, Kyube, Mega Gallade etc and Sylveon can threaten to KO through with Hyper Voice. Definitely B worthy if you ask me. The Cleric set is also still good, and its defenses are fully customsiable depending on what your team needs (can go fully specially, mixed def or anywhere in between).
Togekiss: Not sure, possibly drop to C+
The only set I've consistently seen is the shitty, predictable T-Wave Air Slash set. I'm really not convinced the Rocks-weak, slow-ass Togekiss does enough in the face of new, crushing threats to stay where it is. However, if other people feel like its Scarf or Defensive sets are good in the meta, and have more experience than me using them, please feel free to disagree.
Weavile: Raise to B
Such a simple raise for now - powerful, strong priority, great speed tier, incredible offensive typing, access to quick setup, good coverage... Weavile is so scary and SO hard to switch in on right now, and access to Icicle Crash and Knock Off together only makes me shit myself more when I see it. Speed Creep hurts it a bit but is kind of offset by the fact that Weavile can nail most quicker threats with Ice Shard with a little prior damage. Especially if it's pulled an SD.
Zapdos: Drop to C+
Birdspam is nowhere near as scary as it once was, and I feel the current top threats in OU are simply too much to handle. A lot of it comes down to typing, but Zapdos gets worn down quickly and smacked hard in too many games these days. The thunderbird's falling from its perch a bit. Still good on certain teams, but nothing to write home about anymore. Definite drop.
C+ Rank
Ampharos(Mega): Raise to B-
Mega Amphy has definitely improved this generation, and makes an awesome bulky pivot. Its power is often heavily underestimated, and it serves as a fantastic answer to Megabro whilst still retaining good matchups against a large portion of the tier. Rain is also a super strong playstle atm and Mega Amphy functions very, very well on it, obtaining slow pivots to Rain's premier wallbreakers so they can do some work. The only negative is that its Agility set is a little less effective, as the speed creep means it can't outspeed top threats even at +2. Scarf Lando-T also gives it a hard time. In any case, I think the positives just about warrant a raise.
Camerupt (Mega): Drop to C or C-
Everybody's said it again and again, but Mega Camerupt is pretty bad. I'll make the standard statement - if you're going to judge a Pokemon on sheer power alone, Rampardos should be in Ubers. Mega Camerupt just struggles so much with everything other than hitting hard. It needs to drop at least to C, but more than likely to C- or further in the future.
Cobalion: Stay in C+
Cobalion's niche is still the same. Makes a good check to some Greninja vriants now I guess but the fundamentals haven't changed. Still a Rocker with a niche, and has nice pivot utility with good typing and Volt Turn. Unless I'm missing something big I don't see why its position in the rankings should shift.
So...
B- Rank
I see no reason to raise Alom, and am leaning towards it dropping. The main reason for this is the fact that threats like SD Tox Orb Breloom, NP Thundurus, NastyPass Celebi etc are super common atm because Megabro's spinning around, and many of those same threats put massive pressure on Alom - especially within Stall - as they can either straight KO her or pivot with Volt Switch. From what I've seen in recent matches, she often forfeits a lot of momentum. Team slots on Stall are more valuable than ever, as it's pretty much become a game of packing multiple things that act as checks / counters to whatever threatens your win conditions (namely Megabro and Mega Sableye). So yeah, I'd say keep in B- for now but maybe drop based on what other people think.
I don't really have any experience with Azelf in OU, but I know some people proclaim it's the best lead since sliced bread in the current meta. Great speed tier and a great movepool (Rocks Screens, Taunt, fantastic coverage and, of course, Explosion) make it a fantastic lead for Offense. Choice sets are also viable and unexpected, and can provide a Greninja check. That's something we could always do with (cry). I'd love to hear some thoughts from people who have more experience using it, but I'll stay undecided for now.
Conk is making a bit of a comeback atm. I remember the start of gen 6, when Conk was literally ubiquitous in the meta. He kind of died down because of Talonflame and Azumarills' dominating presences and everybody seemed to forget about him. At the moment though, he's really strong, and a lot of people just don't expect him and therefore don't really prepare much for him. I've done some testing with Poison Jab over Ice Punch and it works a treat. Yes, Lando-T is super common, but hitting it with a Knock Off on the switch is always nice to remove a potential scarf, and screwing over Fairy switch-ins like Azu, Sylveon and Mega Alt is a very welcome thing indeed. I've heard that Sheer Force and Guts sets are also pretty powerful on the right teams but again I don't have experience using them. Also, with Mega Sableye running around on 9/10 Stall teams and loads of new fast, physical megas testing out the meta, burns are all over the place, so Conk can pick up a boost, or deter a Will-o more easily than ever before. Finally, Conk can check Ninja really, really well, and threatens the Mach Punch or straight Knock Off bop on the switch. Definite raise imo.
A fanstastic tool for Balance and Stall. Greninja is such a defining force in the metagame, and Cress isn't even 2HKO'd by LO Dark Pulse and can heal up with Moonlight whilst wearing it down. The ever-mentioned prevalence of Lando-T also allows Cress some EQ switch-ins, especially on scarfed variants. Healing Wish is great for bringing back so many of the fast 'n' frail threats ORAS introduced (Mega Lop, Mega Scep, Mega Beedril etc), or even bulky ones that attract burns (Mega Metagross), which can be achieved with Heal Bell too. Cress is also a powerful tool for Trick Room teams. I know a lot of people will find that a laughable reason to warrant a raise, but well built TR teams are reallllly strong in the metagame atm because of the speed creep. And anything that can set up TR in the face of Ninja should be seriously considered.
Doublade was a niche pick for stall teams in XY, and it's even more niche now. It provided a good stop to Mega Gardevoir, Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham simultaneously, and could also check Mega Pinsir but now that the mega pool has been so thouroughly diluted, and these Megas aren't at the top of the pile anymore, Doublade finds itself pretty far outside of its comfort zone. I'm sure it'll still find use on some hipster Stall teams, but it doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the B ranks imo.
Same as at the start of the ORAS meta. Provides one of the strongest Ninja checks without being passive, and can be used to scout for Low Kick. Has a unique defensive typing that synergises well with a load of threats, can fish for Scald burns pretty ruthlessly, can set up SR and phase... however, its role hasn't changed at all since the ORAS release. I could see it dropping over time, as it gets slammed hard by pretty much all the top threats that aren't non-LK Ninja. I'd say keep it where it is for now and see how the metagame changes around it. If Ninja gets banned it'll probably drop imo.
Garchomp (Mega): Keep in B-Megachomp's role also hasn't really changed and it still finds itself being pretty much outclassed by Vanillachomp. People can argue that it should drop because of speed creep etc but it doesn't really need to be outspeeding any of the new threats, so I would argue it's largely unaffected by it. It's still a damn powerful wallbreaker that's hard to switch into. Good on certain teams, but still overlooked, and bears a pretty crushing opportunity cost alongside the other, earth-shattering Megas. I'd say still a shitty choice, but too powerful to be lowered. Would love to hear other opinions.
This is a toughie. On the one hand, Stall teams are fairly prevalent atm, and trapping is as useful as ever partly as a result. However, there's been a big rise in the usage of Shed Shell to combat this, and Gothitelle also loses against both Mega Sableye and Megabro, basically awarding them free setup opportunities. I'd say keep it where it is, as it's definitely still something to watch out for, but Stall has some new ways to deal with it.
I've used Megadoom on a couple of teams, and can only vouch for what everybody else has already said. It matches up so well vs so many threats. Lando-T and Rotom-W are still everywhere though, which is annoying, but pressuring Mega Sableye and Megabro simultaneously is awesome. Definite raise.
Klefki: Raise to B+Pretty much the definition of a useful tool. Performs on the same utilitarian level as Thundurus-I, and is basically the go-to T-Wave spammer now. Has excellent defensive typing too (I saw Magnet Rise mentioned earlier. It's oh so trolly) which lets it perform its job just that much better. Obviously still lower than Thundy because it lacks any kind of threatening offensive presence, but it's such a sick support choice and definitely deserves a big raise.
Lucario: Keep in B-I never see Luke anymore above like 1200.However, I really don't feel it's bad enough to drop, it just gets badly overlooked. I wonder if its popularity is still at a low after MegaLuke got banned ages ago, and people just forgot how good the original was, but it still has some serious mid-late game cleaning potential, and strong priority has literally never been more useful.
Scolipede: Raise to Bor B+Scolipede is such a powerful tool for offense. It basically holds the top spot as best Quickpasser alongside NP Celebi, and Quickpassing is really strong atm, being able to break down teams and provide momentum all in one go. In my opinion, the best Scolipede set atm is the Sash Hazards + Endeavour set, which just applies craaazy amounts of pressure from turn 1, and it's one I'm seeing more and more on all stages of the ladder. Scolipede's been due a raise for a while and I could even see it hitting low As.
For me, this all comes down to high opportunity cost. Literally the only reason you use Mega Sharpedo is for SJ boosted Crunch. I do admit this is nothing to scoff at, as after a speed boost it has incredible lategame cleaning potential. However, what annoys me most about MegaSharp is the fact you can only use Speed Boost when you aren't mega'd. So literally the only stage you're properly utilising it for is the late game. It mimicks a one-time setup sweeper, and personally I'd rather use regular Sharp with another Mega, and save the singular setup for something like Hawlucha. Idk, personal preference I guess and I know a lot of people like it. I'd love to hear more opinions, but I don't really see a reason to move it up yet. Breloom is also around more often and unless Sharp runs Ice Fang it gets off a free hit / Spore / setup.
Staraptor: Not sureI'd rather leave Staraptor discussion to people who have more experience using it this generation. It's still strong, but idk if it really does enough to stay where it is / does too much to drop. I also don't see a huge amount of birdspam, perhaps because of Mega Diancie, Megabro etc? Enlighten me!
Imo by far Sylveon's best set atm is Specs. It absolutely decimates most switch-ins, obliterates Mega Sableye and Megabro, coverage nails switch-ins unblievably hard e.g. Shadow Ball for Gross on the switch, HP Fire for Ferro and Scizor etc. Sylveon is so sick on Bulky Offense. Subs are also everywhere on shit like Mega Scep, Mega Loppuny, Kyube, Mega Gallade etc and Sylveon can threaten to KO through with Hyper Voice. Definitely B worthy if you ask me. The Cleric set is also still good, and its defenses are fully customsiable depending on what your team needs (can go fully specially, mixed def or anywhere in between).
The only set I've consistently seen is the shitty, predictable T-Wave Air Slash set. I'm really not convinced the Rocks-weak, slow-ass Togekiss does enough in the face of new, crushing threats to stay where it is. However, if other people feel like its Scarf or Defensive sets are good in the meta, and have more experience than me using them, please feel free to disagree.
Such a simple raise for now - powerful, strong priority, great speed tier, incredible offensive typing, access to quick setup, good coverage... Weavile is so scary and SO hard to switch in on right now, and access to Icicle Crash and Knock Off together only makes me shit myself more when I see it. Speed Creep hurts it a bit but is kind of offset by the fact that Weavile can nail most quicker threats with Ice Shard with a little prior damage. Especially if it's pulled an SD.
Zapdos: Drop to C+Birdspam is nowhere near as scary as it once was, and I feel the current top threats in OU are simply too much to handle. A lot of it comes down to typing, but Zapdos gets worn down quickly and smacked hard in too many games these days. The thunderbird's falling from its perch a bit. Still good on certain teams, but nothing to write home about anymore. Definite drop.
C+ Rank
Mega Amphy has definitely improved this generation, and makes an awesome bulky pivot. Its power is often heavily underestimated, and it serves as a fantastic answer to Megabro whilst still retaining good matchups against a large portion of the tier. Rain is also a super strong playstle atm and Mega Amphy functions very, very well on it, obtaining slow pivots to Rain's premier wallbreakers so they can do some work. The only negative is that its Agility set is a little less effective, as the speed creep means it can't outspeed top threats even at +2. Scarf Lando-T also gives it a hard time. In any case, I think the positives just about warrant a raise.
Everybody's said it again and again, but Mega Camerupt is pretty bad. I'll make the standard statement - if you're going to judge a Pokemon on sheer power alone, Rampardos should be in Ubers. Mega Camerupt just struggles so much with everything other than hitting hard. It needs to drop at least to C, but more than likely to C- or further in the future.
Cobalion: Stay in C+Cobalion's niche is still the same. Makes a good check to some Greninja vriants now I guess but the fundamentals haven't changed. Still a Rocker with a niche, and has nice pivot utility with good typing and Volt Turn. Unless I'm missing something big I don't see why its position in the rankings should shift.
Yes, he did give one, and yes, it did show how it can clean clean up in a game. The opportunity to do this low in my opinion. That team did not show how a Lucario deals with the common Intimidate Landorus Therian and defensive (aside from Mega-Scizor which I give props to).
Yeah, Lucario is meant as a late game cleaner, but there's better stuff for. Scarfed pokemon come in mind, as well other things with priority such as Diggersby,
Bisharp, Mega Pinsir, and etc.
Cresselia -> B
Cresselia gained some viability with ORAS due to the "buff" of stall teams (Mega Sableye). It beats most special attackers, even Greninja with Dark Pulse ! Il is also very bulky on the physical side. This guy should be at the same rank as Quagsire.
I know we should discuss about B- and C+, but most changes have already been decided, so I allow me to speak about other ranks.
Hawlucha -> B/B-
It is not B+ material. It is not powerful, not bulky and hard to set-up. Moreover, it suffers to the competition of others Fighting-types like Terrakion who provides more utility, Mega Heracross who is far more powerful, bulky and has a better coverage, Mega Gallade and Mega-Pinsir.
Mega Alakazam -> B/B-
I don't really see why it's still B+. It has litterally no bulk and a pretty bad typing, lacks power to achieve OHKOs and is OHKOed by everything in return. It is outclassed by Mega Sceptile as a fast special attacker, it is more comparable to Mega Beedril who has too no bulk, but hits hard with its stabs and provides more utility with U-Turn.
Cresselia gained some viability with ORAS due to the "buff" of stall teams (Mega Sableye). It beats most special attackers, even Greninja with Dark Pulse ! Il is also very bulky on the physical side. This guy should be at the same rank as Quagsire.
I know we should discuss about B- and C+, but most changes have already been decided, so I allow me to speak about other ranks.
Hawlucha -> B/B-
It is not B+ material. It is not powerful, not bulky and hard to set-up. Moreover, it suffers to the competition of others Fighting-types like Terrakion who provides more utility, Mega Heracross who is far more powerful, bulky and has a better coverage, Mega Gallade and Mega-Pinsir.
Mega Alakazam -> B/B-
I don't really see why it's still B+. It has litterally no bulk and a pretty bad typing, lacks power to achieve OHKOs and is OHKOed by everything in return. It is outclassed by Mega Sceptile as a fast special attacker, it is more comparable to Mega Beedril who has too no bulk, but hits hard with its stabs and provides more utility with U-Turn.
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I've used MegaZam quite a bit, it's fine in B+ and I honestly wouldn't mind seeing it in A-, it is super fast, hits decently hard, is an amazing Greninja check (come in after a kill, Trace Protean, gg) and it beats Mega Sableye and MegaBro with Dazzling Gleam/Shadow Ball respectively. And it's bulk is bad, but not terribad, it can survive a lot of non SE hits (Lando-T EQ after Tracing Intimidate, for example)
Why use Megazam over Mega Sceptile who has better stabs and a better bulk ?
Because megazam is an amazing revenge killer (and megazam is faster than mega sceptile) also megazam has more power than mega sceptile... whatever.
The great thing about megazam is that thanks to Trace it is able to revenge kill swift swimmers and sand rush excadrill since it has the movepool to do so.
Dont have much experience with the B- or C ranks besides mega houndoom so I will keep it up with other guys opinions.
The great thing about megazam is that thanks to Trace it is able to revenge kill swift swimmers and sand rush excadrill since it has the movepool to do so.
Dont have much experience with the B- or C ranks besides mega houndoom so I will keep it up with other guys opinions.
Mega Zam is faster (avoids speed ties, OHKOs Mega Scept and Mega Bee)
Mega Zam hits harder (170 SpAtk v 145)
Mega Zam has better coverage
Mega Zam has Trace, which can be situationally useful
I actually think Azelf should be removed from the list completely. It's shut down by Mega Sableye and Mega Diancie unless you run Skill Swap, and can be anti-led by Mega Lopunny (Fake Out + Return stops you from doing anything).Azelf: Not sure, possible raise?
I don't really have any experience with Azelf in OU, but I know some people proclaim it's the best lead since sliced bread in the current meta. Great speed tier and a great movepool (Rocks Screens, Taunt, fantastic coverage and, of course, Explosion) make it a fantastic lead for Offense. Choice sets are also viable and unexpected, and can provide a Greninja check. That's something we could always do with (cry). I'd love to hear some thoughts from people who have more experience using it, but I'll stay undecided for now.
I agree with JMach on saying that Zapdos should drop down to C+ rank, but for different reasons. Zapdos never really checked Birdspam, as they usually can get past it, but more so because the main Pokemon it is supposed to check, Mega Pinsir, has declined in usage, due to new checks like Mega Gross and Mega Diancie being present. Zapdos only really checks Azumarill, and Mega Scizor outside of Mega Pinsir, and aside from beating Mega Pinsir and being a Defogger that does not lose to Bisharp, I really do not see much going for it.
Wohoo, from Smashing back to Pokemon :D
I tested already a few Pokemon and the new meta. Up to now I agree with most nominations made so far (concerning the B- and C+), but I want to say something about this one guy:
Mega-Garchomp to C+:
Many people stated how nothing specific has changed that made him less powerful or useful. While this is kind of true (only Mega-Diancie and Sableye are new very good checks to him) he suffers from 2 drastic changes:
I tested already a few Pokemon and the new meta. Up to now I agree with most nominations made so far (concerning the B- and C+), but I want to say something about this one guy:
Mega-Garchomp to C+:
Many people stated how nothing specific has changed that made him less powerful or useful. While this is kind of true (only Mega-Diancie and Sableye are new very good checks to him) he suffers from 2 drastic changes:
- more megas: The obvious one, why should you use MegaChomp as your mega if you can have Mega-Metagross, Gallade or Lopunny? There are many more megas which makes it hard to justify the use of MegaChomp, therefor he is a less useful mega.
- Sand-offense is less viable: I noticed how many new threats to sand-offense exist, such as Gallade, Metagross, Lopunny, Sceptile, Beedrill (can wear down (and kill) Tyranitar so easy) and Slowbro. All of these give this playstyle so much trouble which is resembled in the drops of Tyranitar and Excadrill, the most common Pokemon on sand-offense. MegaChomp suffers now from a similiar problem as Mega-Latios: You trade of your speed AND megaslot for a bit of more bulk and power than non-LO Garchomp. Without the sand-support he really isn't that much better than his regular form and this sand-support is way more difficult to achieve in this meta. I suggest to drop it to C+ not because it is worse in general but because the playstyle in which he shines is less viable
until DD-Garchomp is official, so he will probably rise again.
This isn't exactly true both the threat to sand offense and that M-Garchomp needs sand to function.
Sand Offense is still a very efficient style of play and is usually supplemented with teammates designed to help with some of those threats you mentioned such as Talonflame, M-Altaria, Slowbro, Thundurus, Breloom and so forth to help check these threats. Life Orb Excadrill also hits these threats you mentioned extremely hard and due to Sand and residual damage it's not exactly that hard to get them all into KO range for Excadrill to clean.
Sand supplements M-Chomp and this isn't exactly a necessity more so than it is a luxury, and it still has solid synergy with Tyranitar anyways so this isn't a chore to provide. Against defensive builds it can be an extremely efficient wall-breaker with bulk added on to make it difficult to break without a x4 move. I don't agree with a drop for M-Chomp under the notion that Sand has gotten worse and all of a sudden that reduces its viability because in reality it doesn't. It's perfectly fine in B-.
As AM stated, and what is contrary to popular belief, mega garchomp does not need sand to function. It works perfectly fine without sand. When sand is up, sand force is activated, making mega garchomp a very deadly wallbreaker. Mega garchomp has literally the best offensive stats in the game.
I think the main reason why sand offense is becoming a little bit less popular is because people are still trying out all the new megas. Once the metagame settles down more, I believe sand offense will become more popular. Your first point of "there are more megas, so why would you use mega garchomp when you can use mega gallade" is kind of invalid. You can basically say that for any viable mega.
I think the main reason why sand offense is becoming a little bit less popular is because people are still trying out all the new megas. Once the metagame settles down more, I believe sand offense will become more popular. Your first point of "there are more megas, so why would you use mega garchomp when you can use mega gallade" is kind of invalid. You can basically say that for any viable mega.
Dude wtf? Lol just cuz something is getting suspect tested doesn't mean you remove it off of the list... Who knows? It may be banned, it may not. Right now it's way too early to tell, and I am sure that alexwolf will remove greninja if it is banned.
No guarantee of that. Until then for all intents and purposes, Greninja is currently legal for OU smogon based games.
...its time
I nominate Sharpedo(Mega) to B+!!!!
I have been using this thing extensively for about 2 months and have had success against high level players and managed to stay in the top 50 of the ladder the whole time I was using this thing, I know that individually this doesnt mean much but I thought I would mention that my experiences and opinions have been formed by battling good players and not low ladder garbage. That being said this thing is amazing, and definitely deserves to move up. I wrongly assumed that sharpedo was going to be bad against stall when I started using him, he quickly proved me wrong when I realized that he has only like 2 reliable switchins that can be found on stall(being clefable and chesnaught, everything is getting at least 2hkod with rocks up. He is good at forcing switches and people overestimate their physical walls against them, they will have a skarm at 88% and send it in only to take rocks damage and get 2hkod by crunch, I mean this is the case for many mons like ferrothron, amoongus, empoleon, mega sableye, like seriously he destroys stall teams. Ill throw up some calcs for proof, but also keep in mind that sharpedo is meant to come in mid to late game when there is prior damage on things and then secure easy 2hkos.
calcs:These are the mons that can best handle sharpedo on stall and most of them are just get 2hkod, while seem need only a slight amount of prior damage.252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 129-153 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 153-181 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 232-274 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Empoleon: 186-219 (50.1 - 59%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 154-182 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 133-157 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 27.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Anyway onto offense, there is no need to get into it too much because you guys know what late game cleaners are. But I will say that I think the argument that sharpedo only gets one chance to sweep late game, is pretty weak because that is pretty obvious for a late game cleaner and with sharpedo you really only need to soften up a few things like azumaril or keldeo, and remove strong priority users like tflame, conk, breloom, and then he is good to go. You need a team of five to help eliminate a few threats in order for sharpedo to easily sweep most offense. I wont throw another wall of calcs at you but sharpedo just about OHKOs everything on offense that doesnt resist it, to give you a good measure, sharpedos crunch hits harder than most mega gyarados crunch at +1 and sharpedo doesnt need a free turn to dragon dance in order to get to that power.
Here is just a power comparison(I dont see adamant max attack gyara too often so ill just use jolly for the comparison.)
+1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 318-375 (114.8 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gallade: 322-381 (116.2 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I also want to point out that sharpedo's "setup" if you will, is very safe and allows very safe +1 speed against offensive teams. There is a slight risk of them using agility on your protect, or sub, but those situations are rare against offense.
Sharpedo also does well against balance and you can decide what you need him to do for your team, if you want him to break ferrothorn early, just go ahead and mega evolve and crunch first turn, or you coudl save him for late game to clean up, it depends on the situation. And that is the main reason he should move up so much, because with just one set he can be helpful against all team types, and allows the player using him to customize what sharpedos role is for each game, it could wallbreak early, or clean up late game, it just depends what you need.
So the negatives to this thing are it does have a mega opportunity cost, it does require a fair amount of team support to manage his checks/counters, and he is weak to priority which can be tough to get rid of against some teams. I think sharpedo requires more skill and experience to use then some of the other megas, and that is what is keeping him out of the A ranks, but his ability to adapt to the playstyle he is facing and be damn near uncounterable against stall, and damn near uncheckable late game against offense, seems to be unparalleled and I think he should move up to B+.
MegaScizor already summed up everything I wanted to say as well as Vertex, but I did want to address some minor points about the bolded section. Mega Beedrill also suffers from those same cons, but is residing in B rather than B-. While it is true that Mega Beedrill does sport a higher base attack and speed, it also has much less defense making it way more prone to priority than Mega Sharpedo. Its STABs are also less spammable, as poison and bug are resisted by the steel types that plaque the metagame. Crunch can be spammed with almost no consequence, seeing as only 3/18 types resist it (180 BP coming off of 140 base attack is nothing to scoff at either). Mega Sharpedo also has slightly better coverage options such as choosing whether to run Ice Fang, Poison Jab, Hydro Pump, or Water Fall along with Crunch (which admittedly isn't much but IS more versatile than Beedrill considering Darks's great coverage).
Overall, I feel that Mega Sharpedo is largely underestimated due to everyone focusing on the "one time cleaner" aspect of it, which MegaScizor already pointed out isn't true since he can wall break as well. He pairs well with Stallbreaker Tflame, Garchomp, or CB Azumarill to readily clean up or spam STAB Crunches if need be. While I think B+ might be too high for now, B should be a given at the very least, and it is certainly better than most of the mons that reside in B- (with the exception of Klefki, Mega Doom and a few others who should also move up).
It needs more love than B- to evolve.
I Think sylveon have gotten far better with the ORAS metagame, mostly because hyper offence have gotten worse, it is able to shine through on the playstyle, that is now also arguably the best, balance. Sylveoff have two viable sets, specs and cleric (although cm is also a thing, but very comparable to specs in some ways) it have great mixed bulk, high hp and actually really nice offensive stats too. It is in many ways comparable to clefable, or at least cleric clefable. Sylveon lacks a bit of physical bulk, but fable needs almost maximal investment for this to apply, and on the other hand sylveon have base 130 Spd compared to fables 90 I think this is pretty much made out for. Sylveon also laks rocks, but considering you would already try to fit wish pass and heal bell, sylveon would not have space for rocks anyhow. Sylveon also hits ~35% harder than clef.
It also have the amazing specs set, which does a really good job breaking the checks of its cleric set, such as skarmory and heatran who would get in hoping to get up rocks, just to see themselves getting 2hko'ed by hyper voice and HO ground respectively. It's specs set serves really well on balance like its cleric sister, but is also really amazing on volt turn, where is can act as a strong special wallbreaker, or even give momentum with baton pass.
To put it into perspective, a choice specs sylveon hit harder, with hypervoice than even the special wall breaker mega gardevoir. It's power even comes close to that of mega zard Y.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mewtwo Y: 238-282 (57.2 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mewtwo Y in Sun: 268-316 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
A lot of new mega evolutions in ORAS also lets sylveon spam hypervoice with even more freedom, as it now checks a lot more of the top tier threats! Sylveon have also, unfortunately, gotten some new counters such as mega meta, but checks to these threats can be fit onto most balanced teams, which is already sylveons favorite playstyle.
Alomomola: B- -> C+/C or lower
Can someone PLEASE explain why Alomomola is even ranked? I sort of forgot that this Not-Evolution for Luvdisc even existed until I saw it on the B- rank, and I have NO Idea why it's up so high, or even ranked at all. First, its base stats.
- HP165
- Atk75
- Def80
- SpA40
- SpD45
- Spe 65
- BST 470
Light screen
Reflect
Wish
Rest
which makes its movepool really shallow. And it's next-best stat is defense, which is still very pitiful at 80. Not one of Alomomola's other stats hit 100, or even 90, and with the Special attack stat of 40 forces it to rely on toxic, and when you have to rely on toxic due to your pathetic offensive stats, and Alomomola doesn't even have good defensive stats to at least take more than 2 hits without needing to heal, and when its only healing options take more than one turn to use or put you asleep, this fish is one that wouldn't be missed if it was removed from the viability rankings altogether. but, since it does have some merit, [albeit very few], it can stay in the rankings. Just, not that high.
The only good moves it has are dual screens wish and rest? No, it has scald, toxic, and even knock off which make it a decent bulky water type. Sure, it gets setup on by things such as sub dd mega gyarados and sub cm keldeo, but it is a great check to threats such as mega metagross and non sub / heal bell mega altaria, etc. I agree with moving it to C+, but not with your reasoning.
Alomomola is the one of the best Wish passers in the game which is why it gains itself a ranking. Its best set is Wish/Protect/Scald/Toxic with Regenerator, which makes it a very durable Wish passer. It's actually incredibly bulky despite its average Defense because of its huge HP stats (for reference, it's bulkier than freaking SKARMORY), and passes huge Wishes while it can spread burns and poison or to a lesser extent, Knock off items. It also has a nice typing and checks a few stuff like Mega Metagross. Idc where it goes it can stay in B- or go to C+ but it definitely has a niche and is much better than what you pass it off for.
Alom is sick on stall. It also gets access to Knock Off and Scald, and it can pass gigantic wishes. It's still good imo.
Well, it's also completely outclassed by Quagsire, who has an excellent ability, as well as an immunity to electric and a wider movepool. Also, scald with base 40 SPA? I'd be better off attacking with just about anything else. Also, alomomola is slower than a MAGIKARP. How is it supposed to get off massive wishes when it gets outspeed and possibly kiled with it's terrible defensive stats?
How is it outclassed by quag? Quag doesnt have wish or regenerator and alomomola doesnt have unaware.
Better defensive stats, slack off, immunity to electric, unaware, haze to eliminate all stat changes, and actually usable offensive power.
You've clearly never used the troll fish, quagsire is used to check physical set up sweepers, Alomamola is used on stall for big wish passing, while not being as reliant on its own wishes thanks to regenerator. Yes it is passive, but stop comparing it to quagsire.
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