Point taken. Ban the broken passers and the problem is still solved. Temporarily.
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ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter haunter
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I agree Wobufett is not broken, but Gothorita might be. Its stats are worse than Gothitelle, but not by that much.
Quick stat comparison:
HP
60
Atk
45
Def
70
SpA
75
SpD
85
Spe
55
HP
70
Atk
55
Def
95
SpA
95
SpD
110
Spe
65
Its only marginally slower with slightly less bulk and special attack. If gothitelle was banned would gothorita just replace it? While its stats are lower would they make it any less broken? I don't know. I would rather just get rid of the whole thing than have the baton pass situation again where we ban part of it, but its still a problem.
What a fucking monster. How can we possibly defend ourselves from that humongous 75 special attack backed up by the almost deoxys-s base 55 speed, not to mention CRAZY 60/70/85 bulk that makes even Lugia jealous.
Honestly if Gothitelle's banned some people'll use Gothorita and it'll be nothing more than a gimmick immediately sentenced to the lower ladder. If something with stats that bad are scaring you just on the merit of Shadow Tag alone, you might want to reconsider your standpoint :U
Bad stats can be mitigated with crazy abilities (see Moody users). What I think lil Yoshi is trying to get across that similar to the baton pass nerf we would simply be beating around the bush by banning Gothitelle and nothing else as Gothorita has the potential to replace it quite easily. The lower stats are noticeable but it would simply mean it traps slightly less number of mons and it still could tear stall cores apart when used correctly.
On the other hand Wobbufett is such a interesting pokemon because it completely relies on it's ability to be relevant and it has just handful of moves to take advantage of it's ability. And unlike Gothitelle or Mega Gengar it's primary targets are offensive mons so it doesn't come off as broken as it is naturally worn down and usually just takes out one or two mons out against a standard offensive team but I don't think that makes it much less uncompetitive. It still forces the opponent to flip a coin with the options usually being ohko'd or give a free switchin, and considering Wobbufett usually are paired with the leading wrecking balls of the tier it makes it's support abilities all the more apparent.
STag in itself is a uncompetitive ability and even though the mons themselves aren't that good in a vacuum it is still near impossible to battle against this strategy and is next to impossible not to give a STag user a opportunity to switch in and wreck havoc. It may be a bit matchup dependent but does that mean all the mons who can't do crap against STaggers are not viable just cuz they can't fight against them?
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Man.... I don't know how using the word "uncompetitve" for STag caught on. The correct word is "broken"
EDIT: ok actually I do know it because people wanted it out of Ubers before it was a tier so they had to label it under the wrong definition but yeah. think about the nature of competition and options. Shadow Tag promotes bad competition (and is therefore broken) but it it still promotes competition and is competitive.
EDIT: ok actually I do know it because people wanted it out of Ubers before it was a tier so they had to label it under the wrong definition but yeah. think about the nature of competition and options. Shadow Tag promotes bad competition (and is therefore broken) but it it still promotes competition and is competitive.
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Uh Gothorita has all the same traits that makes Gothitelle a potential suspect. It can still efficiently trap a stall target, Trick a Scarf / Specs, and can CM Rest up targets (+6 75 SpA isn't much less than +6 95 SpA). Gothitelle isn't broken, it's uncompetitive, and that's not defined by stats at all really. Or should we not be afraid of Purrloin becuase it's stats are worse than Liepard?
Do you even know why Goth would be suspected?
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Yes, the OU council (not you) are doing the quickbans. The requirement right now is when something is obviously broken. If the council doesn't decide to go out of their way this time I realize that there is no way of quickbanning the 3 Pokemon.
I am glad that you posted this post from the UU tier since this was the exact post who gave me that idea. If the majority and the council think that testing everything is worth the time I am not against it, but I think it would be more efficient to quickban only these 3 Pokemon which are not discussed because they are too strong like Metagross or defining like Sableye, they are uncompetitive and MAYBE broken. We weren't finished with all tests at the end of XY and I can see we won't finish at the end of ORAS too if we don't test them faster. Faster tests means that there is no time for the meta to adapt and calm down after a change. Nobody wants to play a balanced meta only for a week until the next game with probably more broken stuff will be released.
Of course every (used) Pokemon affects the tier in one way or another. Removing it affects the tier, this is logical. With the exception of Smeargle (which is rarely used outside of Passing nowadays) the banning of these Pokemon will affect the tier but I doubt it will be that gamechanging.
Do you know how much Scolipede is used outside of BP-teams? Not really much is an exaggeration. It is viable but there is only a VERY small amount of people actually using it. Its effect on the tier is so small that it is practically neglectable.
Gothitelle of course is a bit different. It is used very often for known reasons. Banning it will have the greatest effect on the metagame but more of a playstyle shift than usage shift. Gothitelle's main job is wallbreaking in a unique way so people will have to use other wallbreakers in order to replace it. It is not the same as banning other wallbreakers (let's say Gardevoir) which forces stall to use counters to it. Gothitelle cannot be countered or played around like "normal" wallbreakers, so you can't really prepare for it. As far as I can see banning Gothitelle would mainly lead to an increased usage of other wallbreakers and balanced and stall would gain popularity since these playstyles are the main target for it. I don't see any specific Pokemon that would profit from its ban.
This is very subjective but is this change acceptable? I think yes. At this point you can disagree or tell me to what great change these bans would lead to.
And just to make sure: After quickbanning them and testing the other necessary stuff we can always retest them and I would appreciate that. I don't like banning Pokemon like this but it is needed in the current situation.
If the council doesn't want to quickban any of these because they aren't so obviouslys broken then so be it.
Just saying, with max hp and defense investment and Eviolite, it just takes a little bit more damage than Lugia if Multiscale is broken. Not saying Gothorita is the next Mega Ray or anything but it might be an OK gimmick.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 127-151 (39.1 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Multiscale Lugia: 68-81 (16.3 - 19.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
Anyway, about the metagame,
1) Mega Metagross
This Pokemon has everything it wants, high Attack (which is further boosted with Tough Claws) , great bulk, high Speed, decent defensive typing and an amazing movepool that can be tailored to lure and heavily damage it's checks and counters if it hits them on the switch. For example: Mega Manectric , Mega Houndoom, Victini , Heatran, Bisharp (Earthquake), Landorus-T (Ice Punch), Hippowdon, Mega Slowbro, Gyarados (Grass Knot) and Rotom-W (Zen Headbutt). It can even defeat Skarmory, Bisharp and Ferrothorn with Hammer Arm. While Mega Metagross certainly has its issues such as low pre-Mega Speed and inability to trouble Stall too much, it is hard to deny that it more than pulls its weight against Balance and Offense. Finally, it is one of the best Fairy-type checks that is easy to slap on a team if you don't have a Mega.
2) Mega Sableye
From my experience of playing against it, this Pokemon has 2 sets, the Calm Mind set and the Specially Defensive set. While it certainly is very bulky, what makes Mega Eye amazing is it's ability to bounce (pun not intended) back (and generally discourage) Taunt, entry hazards and status moves as long as it is still alive . It also boasts of having Will-O-Wisp and Recover to stay around longer (and the chance to Recover is hard to come by considering it is very slow and will often have to take 2 hits before doing anything). This Pokemon is also checked hard by Fairies which are actually good in the metagame so it does not cause overcentralisation. Instead, it is one of the few things making Stall viable again through it's ability and bulk.
3) Baton Pass
Please do not ban this move as it has legit non-broken users such as Celebi, Mega Lopunny and Sylveon who either uses it to escape Pursuit, NastyPass or gain momentum. The problem of passing boosts lies with Scolipede and Smeargle who can gain boosts mindlessly and consistently at that. This playstyle is very cancerous especially if Espeon is used alongside those two since it bounces back Taunt and phazing moves. If we really want to eliminate this playstyle, please ban Scolipede and Smeargle. And before someone says to me, "But Scolipede and Smeargle has non broken uses like the LO Cleaner set (Scoli) or the Lead set (Smeargle)", I would ask ,"When was the last time you see anyone using those sets? When you see those two Pokemon being used, you know that it will be the Baton Pass set."
4) Aegislash
The Suspect Test of this Pokemon is choke full of controversy, I admit. However, it still possessed a lot of traits which led it to being a suspect in the first place; great typing, high stats, great movepool, and the 50/50 mindgames. In the past, Aegislash's mere presence in the metagame deters the use of Psychics and Fairies as they allow it to come in for free and fire off a Shadow Ball from base 150 SpA. Sure, Specially Defensive Hippowdon and Mandibuzz can check it but they don't like Toxic. Aegislash also forces Bisharp to be on every team (and it can OHKO the obvious switch-in with Sacred Sword). King's Shield also allows Aegislash to check Choice Scarf users as well as physical attackers who lack a contact move (this means mons like Mega Altaria would be forced to use Earthquake instead of Heal Bell. Mega Gyarados to slap on Earthquake to avoid the Crunch/ King's Shield mindgames, Azumarill to run Knock Off instead of considering Superpower. ). In short, Aegislash causes extreme centralisation. Furthermore, the metagame change is very beneficial to it as it checks Mega Metagross, the Fairies, Mega Slowbro, Lati@s, Celebi, etc. while having few new checks to it if at all (Mega Lop dies to Sacred Sword, Mega Swampert is only used on Rain teams). Therefore, this thing should not come back to OU until the next generation imo. Frankly, I feel that the people calling for it to be unbanned are its fans since it is so popular (A similar situation which happened with Greninja and Blaziken).
5) Genesect
Lol. Are we seriously considering unbanning this broken Pokemon on OU? This Pokemon was stupidly consistent in grabbing momentum because of how impossibly threatening it was what with its great movepool and Download to boost it's offensive stats. If you have a Pokemon weak to any of it's coverage moves, you will be forced to switch and take a load of damage if Genesect U-Turns. Furthermore, it has so many viable sets and is so effective in all of them (and can bluff another set effectively) that you really don't see coming until it's too late. Also, even if you figure out its set, actually threatening it back is a problem because Genesect has a great typing and decent bulk for an offensive Pokemon. In fact, if we banned Greninja, I don't see why we should unban Genesect who can do almost everything Greninja does but better.
Synchronation I'm afraid that I am not experienced enough to intelligently discuss/dispute your predictions on the meta effects of the removal of Goth, Scoli, and Smeargle, so for the sake of argument let us presume that you are correct and that these quick bans, if taken, would have a relatively small impact on the overall meta. My main gripe with your solution actually has very little to do with the short term impact on the meta and much more to do with the long term impact of this decision on Smogon's banning and tiering policy. As stated before, quick banning these mons as you have suggested will mark the first time in OU since the suspect process became a thing that the OU council quick banned a mon that was arguably broken as opposed to obviously broken. Maybe I'm being overcautious here, but I could see this considerably undermining the credibility of the suspect test system if the OU council decides to give itself the ability to bypass it so easily.
I kinda figured that your idea was at least somewhat influenced by the writings of the UU tiering council, but do we really want the OU council to follow in their footsteps? While I do believe that the suspect system can be improved upon (and I would love to host a discussion on it if permitted to), I do not believe the correct answer is to bypass it, even temporarily.
I kinda figured that your idea was at least somewhat influenced by the writings of the UU tiering council, but do we really want the OU council to follow in their footsteps? While I do believe that the suspect system can be improved upon (and I would love to host a discussion on it if permitted to), I do not believe the correct answer is to bypass it, even temporarily.
I agree that Aegislash and Genesect should be retested. The metagame in its current state is completely fucked up and I don't really want to see Lando-T on each and every single team just because there are so many things to prepare for. Dropping Aegi and Gene would probably solve that problem. Sure, they're extremely powerful and force 50/50 mindgames, but so many Pokemon do that (Mega Metagross, Lando-T, Mega Gardy/Gallade, etc etc.) I'd say that Genesect is a slower, slightly stronger Greninja (the 99 base speed really matters against offense, since ExtremeSpeed is not enough sometimes even with the +1 boost) while Aegislash would be a great new addition to balanced and stall teams. I can imagine Psychics and Fairies trembling in fear lol
Smeargle probably should be quickbanned considering CancerPass is so uncompetitive and allows you to go from 1000 to 1800 in almost no time if you know what you're doing.
Smeargle probably should be quickbanned considering CancerPass is so uncompetitive and allows you to go from 1000 to 1800 in almost no time if you know what you're doing.
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Actually, Aegislash would be a great addition to stall, balance, hyper offense, and everything in between!
People keep bringing up that the meta is stale and that Landoge being on 30% of teams is bad, but how is a meta where half of every team from every playstyle runs the same Pokemon and most Psychic/Fairy/Fighting Pokemon are unviable possibly any better?
The metagame is in a good spot as far as I'm concerned, every playstyle is at least viable and there are no shortage of good mons to run, so no it's not "Completely fucked up".
People keep bringing up that the meta is stale and that Landoge being on 30% of teams is bad, but how is a meta where half of every team from every playstyle runs the same Pokemon and most Psychic/Fairy/Fighting Pokemon are unviable possibly any better?
The metagame is in a good spot as far as I'm concerned, every playstyle is at least viable and there are no shortage of good mons to run, so no it's not "Completely fucked up".
Uhm, so because Lando T is centralizing, we should allow a far more centralizing 'mon into OU? Let's stop bringing up the 50/50s, we know they go both ways. But what doesn't is being the best Pokemon in the tier and forcing everyone to conform to it. Before you go into "well Lando T is centralizing" it is no where near as centralizing as Aegi was, and will likely continue to be (if it were to be reintroduced).
A lot of what you said has me scratching my head, honestly. First off the metagame in its current state isn't remotely fucked up. Nothing is obviously broken, though there are a few arguably uncompetitive strategies revolving around Shadow Tag and Baton Pass. In hindsight, these issues are relatively insignificant in comparison to stuff like full baton pass and swagger bullshit. Dropping Aegislash and Genesect would throw everything out of whack. You think Landorus-T would become any less common in the presence of these two threats? You know what would happen actually, every team would end up having a Lando-T AND a Heatran. More importantly, reintroducing these two would bring about different problems that I've already outlined in this post so unless there's a legitimate counterargument they should stay banned. Genesect is most often faster than Greninja. And very different. If you experienced the Genesect era you would know to always assume scarf from the get-go, unless something specifically leads you to believe otherwise. Lastly why would we go ahead and quick ban "cancerpass" when it's an even more complicated issue than the original Baton Pass ban? I've never seen it anywhere close to the top 10 on the ladder, let alone on the high end of the ladder at all.
I wouldn't be surprised if you're just trolling. please tells us that's the case, because I would happily take the bait if that's the case.
if not, well,
Alright, I'm going to go into why I feel Shadow Tag as a whole should be banned.
I am the type for technicality. If something is noncompetitive, and suspect/ban worthy, it should be dealt with across the board. Shadow Tag (or trapping in general) removes control from the opponent, a MAJOR part in Competitive battling. Regardless of whether Wobb, Gothorita or Gothita are on par with Gothitelle, Shadow Tag still removes control from the opponent. Shadow Tag is the guilty party, not Gothitelle, she just abuses it. When you get down to the root of what makes competitive battling. . . competitive, Removing a key component of any competitive battle is a HUGE problem, especially when someone uses it correctly. Which is why I believe Shadow Tag (or less so, trapping in general) as a whole should be
Feel free to disagree with me as I am sure this is not a very commonly shared view on the matter, but in truth, Shadow Tag as an ability, is noncompetitive in and of itself. There's a reason it's banned in lower tiers. . .
EDIT: Cool 400~ party hardy!
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Regarding Ability + Pokemon bans, I wouldn't mind a complex ban of banning an ability and a Pokemon with this conditions:
-Unban Ability + Pokemon, not unban everything else.
-There has to be much difference between the two abilities. Also, they hyave the chance to get 2 abiities.
-The Ability has to be a really big part of the Pokemon.
-The Pokemon has to be legal by Nintendo.
-It ha to be an exception for special cases. And this type of bans shouldn't happen in UU and lower tiers.
With this, I'm not opposing to give a suspect test to only:
-Blae + Blaziken (and of course, Blazikenite out)
-Torrent + Greninja
Even if those pokemon aren't OU by usage, a lower tier can still utilize them.
But given how the ladder is not doing this type of complex bans, I will remind to you the pokemon that were banned and we could retest:
A) Deoxys-N. NO
B) Blaziken. With Speed Boost, NO. With Blaze, only if the council (which now hates to do it) does a suspect test.
C) mega Blaziken. NO
D) Mega Gengar. NO
E) mega Kangaskhan. NO
F) Mega Lucario. NO.
G) Genesect. NO
H) Swagger. NO
I) Baton Pass. I think that this should be retested. I think that Baton pass has to be unbanned and we need two complex bans:
-Speed Boost + Baton Pass
-Geomancy + Baton Pass
J) Deoxys-S. NO
K) Deoxys-D. YES. there's two very viable (although mega Evolutions) that stop deoxys-D almost completely. It may still broken, but I think a suspect test is still a good idea.
L) Aegislash. Maybe. I still think it's broken (or at least uncompetitive) but given the circunstances of the previous test, should warrant a retest.
M) Mawile. Personally, no. I don't think that thye metagame has changed much for Mawile to still be not broken.
N) mega Salamanecew. NO; NO, NO, NO; NO, NO, NO. To see, how broken this thing are, in Ubers, it's as viable as Xerneas.
O) Greninja. NO. Too soon and the suspect test was too clear. Unless we accept compelz bans.
Things that i see having Suspect tests.
A) Mega Metagross. Yes. I think that the combination of high stats, high speed and his ability could be taken into consideration. I don't consider it broken for now, but I think this needs to look upon.
B) Mega Sableye. Yes. I think that Sableye is more uncompetitive than broken, by the way.
C) Shadow Tag. For the moment, no.
D) Landorus-T. Even for it's OverOverUsed, no.
E) landorus-I. NO:
F) Stealth Rock. Maybe, but be warned that Talonflame and/or Mega Charizard could be broken without SR on.
G) Scald. NO.
-Unban Ability + Pokemon, not unban everything else.
-There has to be much difference between the two abilities. Also, they hyave the chance to get 2 abiities.
-The Ability has to be a really big part of the Pokemon.
-The Pokemon has to be legal by Nintendo.
-It ha to be an exception for special cases. And this type of bans shouldn't happen in UU and lower tiers.
With this, I'm not opposing to give a suspect test to only:
-Blae + Blaziken (and of course, Blazikenite out)
-Torrent + Greninja
Even if those pokemon aren't OU by usage, a lower tier can still utilize them.
But given how the ladder is not doing this type of complex bans, I will remind to you the pokemon that were banned and we could retest:
A) Deoxys-N. NO
B) Blaziken. With Speed Boost, NO. With Blaze, only if the council (which now hates to do it) does a suspect test.
C) mega Blaziken. NO
D) Mega Gengar. NO
E) mega Kangaskhan. NO
F) Mega Lucario. NO.
G) Genesect. NO
H) Swagger. NO
I) Baton Pass. I think that this should be retested. I think that Baton pass has to be unbanned and we need two complex bans:
-Speed Boost + Baton Pass
-Geomancy + Baton Pass
J) Deoxys-S. NO
K) Deoxys-D. YES. there's two very viable (although mega Evolutions) that stop deoxys-D almost completely. It may still broken, but I think a suspect test is still a good idea.
L) Aegislash. Maybe. I still think it's broken (or at least uncompetitive) but given the circunstances of the previous test, should warrant a retest.
M) Mawile. Personally, no. I don't think that thye metagame has changed much for Mawile to still be not broken.
N) mega Salamanecew. NO; NO, NO, NO; NO, NO, NO. To see, how broken this thing are, in Ubers, it's as viable as Xerneas.
O) Greninja. NO. Too soon and the suspect test was too clear. Unless we accept compelz bans.
Things that i see having Suspect tests.
A) Mega Metagross. Yes. I think that the combination of high stats, high speed and his ability could be taken into consideration. I don't consider it broken for now, but I think this needs to look upon.
B) Mega Sableye. Yes. I think that Sableye is more uncompetitive than broken, by the way.
C) Shadow Tag. For the moment, no.
D) Landorus-T. Even for it's OverOverUsed, no.
E) landorus-I. NO:
F) Stealth Rock. Maybe, but be warned that Talonflame and/or Mega Charizard could be broken without SR on.
G) Scald. NO.
OU suspect tests are primarily concerned about pokemon that reside in OU or have a potential impact towards the tier. That said it is not the role of OU to necessarily conceive complex bans for the sake of lower tiers as that notion is convoluted in so much that an OU player is not expected or required to be knowledgeable of the lower tiers, nor should they be in so much as the discussion is primarily concerned about OU. When we make bans it is only mind of improving OU, as seen last gen with the sand veil blanket ban, your concern shouldn't be whether or not you deprive lower tiers.
So expecting OU to spend time creating a suspect test in mind of only the lower tiers, when there is clearly a healthy enough discussion of actual suspects or retests that have more immediate impact on OU rather than the lower tiers, is rather silly and a waste of time and effort better spent. If they have no immediate impact to the health of OU I see no reason why we should be concerned about a tier we are not playing nor have the qualified user base, in as much that they aren't dedicated lower tier players, to make judgement calls precisely for lower tiers.
That said Greninja and Blaziken are the only real offenders of the ability, there are other users who carry it but are in no way broken. More or less the bans need not be complicated in so much that the issue is clearly with Greninja and Blaziken than the ability itself.
Edit: I'm somewhat confused by people saying retest Deo-D cuz we have two new magic bouncers... You do understand both Magic Bouncers take up a mega slot so they aren't exactly the most splashable members as that is a more sought after spot, plus they would need to mega-evolve prior to acquire their ability - which isn't always to your advantage to be hasty at doing especially with MSable (as you want that prankster Wisp). Aside that Deo-D would simply run skill swap over taunt in this situation.
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There's a lot of problems with this.
1. Unban Ability + Pokémon. Why should this be applied to only Ability + Pokémon? Why can this not extent to, say, Mewtwo + Any base power move over 60, or Yveltal + Any level over 70? This opens up a lot of precedence that I'm not willing to go into detail about; Agent Gibbs outlines this very well in the ban only Protean Greninja thread in the Victory Road sub-forum.
2. There has to be a big difference between the two abilities. Exactly how is a 'big difference' defined? Where does this stop and where does this end? It's a very arbitrary statement with no guidelines or any real sense behind it.
3. Again, very arbitrary with no guideline of where it stops and where it ends.
4. Why should 'legal by Nintendo' be considered at all? Nintendo only puts forward their rules for VGC which is an entirely different metagame, and their rules literally extend as far as "Ban box legends and event legends". They don't look into the game to see what's broken beyond what they have created and intended to be broken - hence why Soul Dew is banned as well - and only make additional rules if a glitch emerged from the move, such as with what happened with Sky Drop pre-BW2. By this standard we could also consider Salamencite to be unbanned because hey, Nintendo doesn't do it. If you could explain this reasoning beyond just "they make the game" that would be lovely.
5. Going back to points 2 and 3, what is defined as a 'special case'? Where does this start, where does this end, why is it not completely arbitrary and only for the sake of allowing Greninja and Blaziken back into the tier? And again, why shouldn't this apply for the lower tiers? You've opened the floodgates. UU just banned Pinsirite, how about they allow a complex ban of Pinsirite + No normal moves? Why is that any different from allowing Greninja + No protean?
At the end of the day if you're going to put forward something like this you have to put forward a lot better reasoning. Being very arbitrary and non-specific about why you want these in place - but I can make a pretty educated guess it's so you can have your precious greninja and blaziken back - and then making incredibly laughable statements like "If it's nintendo-legal" will just not cut it.
Aegislash was literal cancer. It could literally blanket check the entire metagame, and force a vast number of viability or being good in OU just because they happened to get screwed over by Aegislash. The current metagame is centered around bulky Psychics, and Aegislash would wipe all of these Psychics and send them back to UU. While Landorus-T can check a lot of common Pokemon in OU as well, it is nowhere as difficult to deal with as Aegislash, meaning it is not as centralizing as Aegislash was. You should know from either BW2 or XY that Genesect was an incredibly overcentralizing force due how to capable offensively it was, being able to run almost any offensive set it could run.
People need to understand something about Mega Sableye is that, it indeed is as good as it is on practice as on paper. It's just not directly reflected in battles simply due to people over-preparing for it. The number of pokemon that check it, or just simply beat it are actually much less than people are making it out to be, and it's restricted to Fairy types, Keldeo and stat boosting Fire types, not to mention a good amount of them are Mega's. And a lot of them are created due to Mega Sableye's centralization.
"dies to strong attacks" is common argument against Mega Sableye suspect/ban which imo is coming from a wrong angle. Sure, NP LO Thund can beat it and so can SD Lum chomp, but in order for them to not lose to Mega Sableye, the user needs to resort to accurate prediction when switching in. Not to mention they're most likely to get severely crippled even when the user is correct and not even close to reliable. Example: You switch in Garchomp on a CM, SD as they WoW and then fire off an attack. Mega Sableye switches out and maybe you do get a kill. But now, Garchomp is now fodder for Mega Sableye. This applies for pretty much every strong attacker that people keep bringing up in order to defend Sableye. NP Thund, CM Keld, CM Lando etc are easily worn down by burn damage and end up being fodder themselves when they are at low health.
Now before anyone comes at the above point, the thing is, when these "Soft Checks" get weakened, your team becomes completely exposed. Here's the thing, take Mega Charizard-X, even you don't have a check for it, you can sack something in order to prevent set up and then revenge with your Latios or Keldeo. Take Keldeo, your Latios might be gone but if you keep your Ferrothorn healthy, yo can tank a Secret Sword and KO with Power Whip. But in the case of Mega Sableye, everything besides it's small pool of checks straight up lose. Go ahead, take a look at the list of OU pokemons and see how much pokemons fail to do anything vs Mega Sableye.
Finally, Mega Sableye accomplishes way too much, this thing walls a lot of threats, can sweep with CM easily, spin-block, Bounce back status and hazards. This is why it's so fucking borked. You're a good player, you know you have to have checks for top threats. So you run a Clefable and SubCM Keldeo. You're smiling because you think you are prepared for Mega Sableye. But as long as it completely shuts down your Ferrothorn, your Skarmory, your Rotom-W, as long it hard walls your Mega Gallade, your Bisharp, your, Defensive Land-T, your Latias(SpDef Sable), your Genger(SpDef Sable),your offensive Heatran, it doesn't give a fuck about your Fairies.
"dies to strong attacks" is common argument against Mega Sableye suspect/ban which imo is coming from a wrong angle. Sure, NP LO Thund can beat it and so can SD Lum chomp, but in order for them to not lose to Mega Sableye, the user needs to resort to accurate prediction when switching in. Not to mention they're most likely to get severely crippled even when the user is correct and not even close to reliable. Example: You switch in Garchomp on a CM, SD as they WoW and then fire off an attack. Mega Sableye switches out and maybe you do get a kill. But now, Garchomp is now fodder for Mega Sableye. This applies for pretty much every strong attacker that people keep bringing up in order to defend Sableye. NP Thund, CM Keld, CM Lando etc are easily worn down by burn damage and end up being fodder themselves when they are at low health.
Now before anyone comes at the above point, the thing is, when these "Soft Checks" get weakened, your team becomes completely exposed. Here's the thing, take Mega Charizard-X, even you don't have a check for it, you can sack something in order to prevent set up and then revenge with your Latios or Keldeo. Take Keldeo, your Latios might be gone but if you keep your Ferrothorn healthy, yo can tank a Secret Sword and KO with Power Whip. But in the case of Mega Sableye, everything besides it's small pool of checks straight up lose. Go ahead, take a look at the list of OU pokemons and see how much pokemons fail to do anything vs Mega Sableye.
Finally, Mega Sableye accomplishes way too much, this thing walls a lot of threats, can sweep with CM easily, spin-block, Bounce back status and hazards. This is why it's so fucking borked. You're a good player, you know you have to have checks for top threats. So you run a Clefable and SubCM Keldeo. You're smiling because you think you are prepared for Mega Sableye. But as long as it completely shuts down your Ferrothorn, your Skarmory, your Rotom-W, as long it hard walls your Mega Gallade, your Bisharp, your, Defensive Land-T, your Latias(SpDef Sable), your Genger(SpDef Sable),your offensive Heatran, it doesn't give a fuck about your Fairies.
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Alright things like this are really starting to bother me.
Just because someone mentions "Complex ban an ability from a Pokemon but allow the Pokemon to stay with other abilities" does not immediately mean they are also saying "Allow Mewtwo back but it can only run X, Y, and Z." Those are two completely different things and it is a horrible assumption to make and is a stretch.
Nearly every single time this argument is brought up, someone has to go and say "Really? And then what we unban Darkrai without Dark Void? We unban Arceus-Bug only?"
There is a legitimate amount of merit to the idea of unbanning something with only a few of it's abilities. It is a stupid idea to unban something but limit it to a lower level or only a certain movepool. That doesn't even make sense. We already have certain abilities banned from normal gameplay, we already have complex bans forbidding Pokemon from using certain moves together. It's no different to complex ban an ability from only one Pokemon. I'm not saying I agree with this form of a complex ban, but at least give it some thought instead of shutting it down immediately with the same overused, dried up arguments.
Now I'm not saying I agree with the idea of this type of complex ban (the only Pokemon I think it would work with would be Greninja off the top of my head), but I'm sick of people immediately jumping to the conclusion that because someone said "Complex ban Greninja + Protean, Blaziken + Speed Boost, etc." (which, even without Speed Boost I have a feeling Blaziken would still end up being top-tier if not banned again) that are also saying "Oh, and then also unban Mewtwo but it can only use Tackle!" People are not offering this kind of idea because they're fanboys of a Pokemon (alright, a very few of them are), they're saying it because there is a belief of some legitimate competitive merit to the idea.
And the problem I have with this rebuttal is because it's just a 'common sense' argument. By unbanning something by just taking it's ability away, what you're essentially doing is removing one component of what makes it broken. And at that point, there is no logical reasoning it cannot be applied to absolutely anything in ubers. What's your argument here? That it's "Stupid"? That it "doesn't make sense"? I'm sorry, but logically speaking, that has absolutely no merit. Once you say it's absolutely fine to allow something back in because you've taken certain things away from it to make it unbroken, it does suddenly become fine to allow things like Level 70 Mewtwo and Kyogre with only Water Gun and Icy Wind. That's the big problem here and why we've never allowed anything back in by just taking away one element. If this wasn't a thing, we would have just banned Protean on Greninja, or Speed Boost on Blaziken. But the fact is it isn't just one component that makes the Pokémon broken. Protean on it's own is fine, as shown on Kecleon and Frogadier. Speed Boost on it's own is fine, as shown by Sharpedo and Ninjask. You have to realize that the banning of these Pokémon is a sum of the entire Pokémon rather than just one aspect of it that makes it broken. I might as well just say ban Gunk Shot and Low Kick on Greninja and that'd make it fine.
I understand where you're coming from but all you're doing is using common sense which again, does not cut it because it's not a real, logical reason. Speed Boost is an aspect of Blaziken just as it's high base power moves are. By picking one little aspect of a Pokémon to remove and then saying that's okay, you are letting this apply to every single thing in Ubers whether you think that makes sense or not.
Landorus-T is not "centralizing". People do not radically alter their teams to accomodate the threat of Landorus-T, rather, they use Landorus-T as a reaction to other threats since it's a decent blanket check to a lot of physical attackers. "Centralization" occurs when the metagame is forced to disproportionately respond to a certain threat, not when a certain Pokemon is used a lot to respond to other threats (e.g. Ferrothorn or Rotom-W). This is why Aegislash, Genesect, etc. are "centralizing" and Landorus-T is not.
It's not as simple as it being a common sense argument. What if that is the one component that truly made it broken? Haven't we done strange complex bans in the past? What's stopping us from doing more? Like I said I don't necessarily agree with it and it would be a waste of our time to start theorymoning and dropping things without certain abilities, but that doesn't mean the idea is immediately worthless.
And no, it doesn't suddenly make it fine to drop Kyogre with only Water Gun and Icy Wind. We have never done bans or use requirements such as this before. We have, however, banned certain things from being used in conjunction with certain Pokemon in the past.
I'd like to link this post elaborating on the "Why Kyogre can't only use Water Gun" thing: http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ean-instead-of-greninja.3526563/#post-5975896
The only reason I'm saying that this idea should be at least considered is because we have done complex bans similar to this in the past. We have never done a complex ban that forced you to only run from a selection of 3 or 4 moves and restricted your level. That's absurd. However banning an ability is not.
You're saying Gunk Shot and Low Kick were the reasons it got the boot, and I'm not saying that's wrong. Without them it would still be here. But, without Protean, do you really think that Gunk Shot and Low Kick would have netted it a ban? I don't think so.
Anyway that's all I'm gonna say on it this isn't really worth getting into another big debate over IMO
We've only done strange complex bans because they affect an entire playstyle. Not one particular Pokémon.
The simple fact of the matter is that there is a necessity to preserve playstyles otherwise the metagame becomes stale and one-track. Unbanning Greninja won't help the metagame. Unbanning Blaziken won't help the metagame. Unbanning anything because you attach nice little "oh but it can't have this" notes will not affect the metagame because they are not the center of certain playstyles.
The second paragraph is incredibly hypocritical. You're using "we have never done bans or use requirements such as this before" as your argument, when this is exactly what you are saying. You're letting Greninja back in on a condition that only applies to it. Likewise, letting Kyogre in with these requirements would be on a condition that only applies to it. It's the exact same thing.
As for the third paragraph... that thread was an absolute waste of time and resources and I absolutely urge you to look at Agent Gibbs' responses rather than just glossing over it and looking at the arguments that suit your side.
No, we have NOT complex bans like this in the past and I have absolutely no idea where you're getting this from. What example are you referring to here? Was Salamence okay in Gen 4 if it didn't run Outrage? Was Excadrill in Gen 5 alright as long as it didn't run Sand Rush? I think the source of confusion here is that you're probably referring to bans of abilities, such as when Garchomp was unbanned because Sand Veil was banned and when Drizzle + Swift Swim was banned. The big difference here is that the entire abilities themselves were banned, not the ability on one specific Pokémon. Sand Veil was considered a broken ability in and of itself, like how Lugia or Giratina are considered broken in and of themselves. Drizzle + Swift Swim had to be done in order to preserve a playstyle without making it completely broken.
The fifth paragraph makes no sense either. Of course without Protean Low Kick and Gunk Shot would have been fine; what's your point? Without Low Kick and Gunk Shot, Protean would have been fine. The point being made was that just banning one aspect of a Pokémon when that aspect on it's own is not broken is completely arbitrary and is exactly why we banned Greninja and not just cherrypicked little aspects of it. Blaziken, Greninja, Aegislash, Darkrai, and whatever other example you can come up with are Pokémon that are broken or uncompetitive as a combination of aspects, rather than just one aspect on it's own not being broken. That is why unbanning Greninja without Protean and Blaziken without Speed Boost would mean there is no problem with unbanning Mewtwo below level 71 or whatever.
I'm really sick of this argument and it was already resolved on the exact Victory Road thread you linked. The point is Greninja + Torrent is not getting unbanned, so stop arguing in it's favour.
Please do not derail the topic of this thread. If you want to talk about the philosophical implications of complex bans vs simple bans, then please move onto this thread. Besides we can't really complex ban any of the Pokémon that are more likely suspect worthy right now, if only because they only have a single ability.
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